Understanding The Deltawing

[FishHunters]

Still not finding smooth turning. Particularly that first Musalane straight on La Sarthe on the way to the first chicane. Its like pulling up the front of a boat trailer. Moving it over 10 degrees then setting it down. My DS3 is set at 2.

 

[baldgye]

Still not finding smooth turning. Particularly that first Musalane straight on La Sarthe on the way to the first chicane. Its like pulling up the front of a boat trailer. Moving it over 10 degrees then setting it down. My DS3 is set at 2.

I turn so the nose of the car is slightly angled at the apex and break in a straight line at it, slowly twitching the nose closer to he apex but not on the curb, soon as I get to the corner I turn around the corner with low throttle and then soon as I'm turning round the corner to straighten up applying more and more throttle until it's flat.

Tbh the hardest part of Sarth least for me is the last sector getting the most out of those high speed bends is haaaarddd lol

 

[Amac500]

Guys are setting the PP to accomodate THEIR cars (505) Why not just make i

Here's a GT6 video of the Deltawing and it is fast. I'm wondering how fast it is compared to the other LMP's in this game?



EDIT: I just clocked that guy's time at approximately 3 minutes, 28 seconds. That makes it about as fast as the Mazda 787B and the Jaguar XJR-9 Group-C cars, as well as faster then the LMP1 Peugeot 908 HDI on my leaderboard in the 2009 track in GT5.
Makes one wonder if the Deltawing is either too fast in-game or the 2013 track was made slightly shorter. I know that in the 2012 24 Hours of Le Mans, the real Deltawing was about as fast as the LMP2 cars and much slower than the R18. I'll need to do more research.

EDIT 2: Thanks for clarifying, LancerEvo7.

It was actually slotted between the LMP2 and GT cars. The chorme one is currently homologated with the LMP1 class in ALMS (which it shouldn't be but that's a rant for another day), but I wonder if the black one that ran Le Mans, I wonder if it is capped to that level?

 

[nicholasxuu]

Which is weird, since despite the rear bias, the rear should have more grip in general. Wider track, more tire, Center of pressure being located across rear axle, the car should be more stable, trail brake or not...its not as if the car has a lot of overhang like a 911....

also you need to consider the front track of the car.
when you trail brake into a right hand turn,
for a normal car, the left front gets most of the load, and go through the corner.
for delta wing, position where normal car's left front wheel is at, has nothing.
here's the stig with relant robin:

and deltawing's low CoG will prevent it from rolling, it will slide.
and thanks to its special aerodynamic design (well sliding never helps aero downforce), it will slides out violently.

*nowadays porsche 911 have about 60% weight in the rear.

 

[maciej908]

Can I just say... WHAT A CAR!!! Handles awesome, when you do exactly what other people have said: brake in a straight line, then go through a corner - coasting and then full gas out of the corner - then it handles like a dream.

I did the 15 lap of Brands Hatch endurance today and basically lapped everyone. I used racing hard tyres and after 15 laps my tyre wear was down to 8, and I've only used 3/4 of the fuel meaning I didn't even pit once.

 

[Fogerty_Jr]

you put race hard on front wheels, race soft on rear wheels, it goes like a freakin' bullet

 

[Doge]

Holy ****, definitely a frustrating car. It's unbeatable out of corners but a bit of a handful everywhere else. Don't dare touch a curb/opponent/dirt. Very, very weird to drive

 

[whereSTheFUhd]

But moment of inertia is related to weight distribution. The whole reason why a 911 is so unsuited to trail braking is that most of the mass is situated behind the car's rotational axis. This applies even more to the DeltaWing because the imbalance of weight between the front and rear is even more severe. In this case it doesn't matter if the weight is located at or behind the rear axle -- all a rear-engined layout does is push more of the weight rearwards, creating a more rear-biased weight distribution. For all the balance in weight distribution, tyre width and downforce, the DeltaWing is still a ginormous pendulum waiting for somebody without the right knowledge to do something stupid to it.

Where that balance and stability actually shows is through the corners and straight-line braking. In fact when people did actually brake in a straight line they found that the car tracked incredibly straight and true.

This exaggerated notion of a pendulum does not apply when the rear is doing much more of the braking than that of a traditional vehicle. The majority of the weight is on the rear, the majority of the loads are on the rear, and, likewise, the majority of the braking is done in the rear. When the majority of braking is done on an axle where all of the weight precedes it, it is fundamentally stable - not "a ginormous pendulum waiting for somebody without the right knowledge to do something stupid."

A lot of people seem to be speaking nonsense to support a specific predetermined conclusion without understanding the basics of the engineering and physics behind the vehicle.

also you need to consider the front track of the car.
when you trail brake into a right hand turn,
for a normal car, the left front gets most of the load, and go through the corner.
for delta wing, position where normal car's left front wheel is at, has nothing.
here's the stig with relant robin:
[...]
and deltawing's low CoG will prevent it from rolling, it will slide.
and thanks to its special aerodynamic design (well sliding never helps aero downforce), it will slides out violently.

*nowadays porsche 911 have about 60% weight in the rear.

I'm not quite sure what the point of your post is (I'm not sure you ever make one), but the general connotation seems to suggest a disadvantage in the Delta Wing's design, without really stipulating the exact reasoning. Comparing it to a Reliant Robin - which, other than superficially by way of its basic wheel layout, shares none of the engineering advantages achieved in the Delta Wing - does not provide any actual supporting evidence for the implied assertion.

For a traditional car, the outside front tire gets most of the load, however, since it is located radially outwards of the center of gravity, much of the force generated by the slip angle acts counter to the intended path of the center of gravity, inducing understeer, rather than translating solely into directional change. The inside front tire, particularly for a heavily rear weight-biased car, shares very little duty in providing cornering force.

Conversely, for the Delta Wing configuration, with the front wheels centrally located, the force generated from both front tires act directly in line with the center of gravity - and they both, more or less, see the same amount of load - thereby much more efficiently translating the force generated at both tires into directional change (and not drag). So, the Delta Wing not only uses the force generated on the outside tire more efficiently, it maximizes use of the inside tires, as well. Fail to see how this particular area which your post seems to concentrate on can be construed as a disadvantage.

 

[jonjwlee]

This exaggerated notion of a pendulum does not apply when the rear is doing much more of the braking than that of a traditional vehicle. The majority of the weight is on the rear, the majority of the loads are on the rear, and, likewise, the majority of the braking is done in the rear. When the majority of braking is done on an axle where all of the weight precedes it, it is fundamentally stable - not "a ginormous pendulum waiting for somebody without the right knowledge to do something stupid."

A lot of people seem to be speaking nonsense to support a specific predetermined conclusion without understanding the basics of the engineering and physics behind the vehicle.

Okay then, if I seem to be spouting nonsense then explain to me, if it isn't because of the extreme rear weight bias, why it isn't advisable to trail brake at all with the DeltaWing, even in real life.

I already said that it is very stable under braking in a straight line (which is exactly because of the majority of the braking force being exerted on the rear wheels, as you mentioned). It's only when you try to turn and brake at the same time when the car starts to act up. It does so in the game, and the findings of the people who have actually driven this car in real life seem to corroborate this.

 

[whereSTheFUhd]

Okay then, if I seem to be spouting nonsense then explain to me, if it isn't because of the extreme rear weight bias, why it isn't advisable to trail brake at all with the DeltaWing, even in real life.

I already said that it is very stable under braking in a straight line (which is exactly because of the majority of the braking force being exerted on the rear wheels, as you mentioned). It's only when you try to turn and brake at the same time when the car starts to act up. It does so in the game, and the findings of the people who have actually driven this car in real life seem to corroborate this.

Can you please share with me where exactly it has been specifically stated that trail braking in the DeltaWing will inevitably lead to spinning out uncontrollably?

I've seen multiple instances of the DeltaWing, during races that its competed in, still trailing on the brake after initiation of turn-in and not displaying any indication of unstable behavior during such maneuvers. Indeed, Ben Bowlby, the lead engineer behind the design, has specifically stated that, even if you manage to lock up the rears by miscalculating entry speeds, you can still back off and safely get through the corner.

If the DeltaWing is, in fact, displaying such unstable behavior at the slightest hint of trail-braking, I would indeed call it a departure from reality, and to try and claim otherwise by presenting an incomplete understanding of its physics would be nonsense.

 

[mistersafeway]

I made a post about that, it was a bit all over the place unfortunately, but the underlying point is still valid: while the car may be tricky to get used to, it's definitely possible to trail brake it in GT6.

Obviously I can't actually confirm how realistic it is, as I haven't driven the real one.

 

[HKS racer]

One of the car I am eager to drive in GT6 was the Deltawing. With it's interesting configuration I wonder how the characteristic will be.
Now that GT6 has 2 versions of it, that's exceed my expectation, thanks PD for this.

Then I testdrive this creature only to find the car always try to kill me in every corner. I have to brake only in the straightline, tried some trail braking but still with the slightest of brake feathering it will spin out horribly.

So guys do you share the same experience with this specific car ?
Any tips or storytelling is appreciated

Thanks

note: I drove it in stock condition, abs 1 only.

I watched Chris Harris video posted in 1st page and in the end the engineer was speaking about how the car brakes. He said the car is not supposed to lock the rear like other cars, not even on heavy breaking because it's particular damping configuration. Which is, according to your report, the opposite of what happen in GT6.

 

[jonjwlee]

Can you please share with me where exactly it has been specifically stated that trail braking in the DeltaWing will inevitably lead to spinning out uncontrollably?

I've seen multiple instances of the DeltaWing, during races that its competed in, still trailing on the brake after initiation of turn-in and not displaying any indication of unstable behavior during such maneuvers. Indeed, Ben Bowlby, the lead engineer behind the design, has specifically stated that, even if you manage to lock up the rears by miscalculating entry speeds, you can still back off and safely get through the corner.

If the DeltaWing is, in fact, displaying such unstable behavior at the slightest hint of trail-braking, I would indeed call it a departure from reality, and to try and claim otherwise by presenting an incomplete understanding of its physics would be nonsense.

How about this article from Top Gear magazine (I know, not really much of an indication of the car's behaviour, but it still says that you can't trail brake this car like most other cars):

Well cars with heavier active downforce can brake later, right up to the apex, a technique called trail braking. The DeltaWing is slower into corners, but quicker out of them.

Or how about Chris Harris's video of the car that I posted earlier:

You have to drive it a bit like an old 911 [another car that's difficult to trail brake]: get it stopped, turn it in, then get on the gas and drive it through the corner.

Or Gordon Kirby's article, in which Bowlby himself states:

One of the things the drivers learned was that you didn't want to trail-brake into the apex and use the feel of the brake to decide if the front was going to stick. Motoyama said he learned to get off the brakes earlier and earlier and literally steer the car through the corner and it would never understeer.

Or Lucas Ordoñez himself:

The way to brake, entering the corner is totally different. With the DeltaWing it is not good to trail brake to the apex, must brake 10 meters before and be on throttle earlier, this provides better stability and cornering grip. It is easy to say but hard to do, because I spent two years to improve my technique to be fast in LMP2.

As I said earlier, everyone who's driven the car has said that you shouldn't trail brake when driving the DeltaWing. Now, if you have a better explanation as to why that is, I'd be happy to hear it.

Of course, as mistersafeway alluded to earlier, it is not actually impossible to trail brake in the DeltaWing in GT6, but there is a small window at the point which you start to steer into the corner where you can still brake and the car will remain stable; go past it and only then will it start to slide out.

And unless any of us have actually driven the DeltaWing in real life it's impossible for us to dismiss GT6's portrayal of the car as unrealistic or broken.

I watched Chris Harris video posted in 1st page and in the end the engineer was speaking about how the car brakes. He said the car is not supposed to lock the rear like other cars, not even on heavy breaking because it's particular damping configuration. Which is, according to your report, the opposite of what happen in GT6.

The car spinning out while trail braking in the game is not caused by the rear brakes locking up, as it does so even with ABS on. Indeed, when you brake in a straight line it does not lock up.

 

[Jedi2016]

After hearing everyone here, on YT, race drivers, etc, talk about how completely different it is to drive this car, I can only laugh at the people who say it's "undrivable" in-game. I'd wager dollars to donuts all those people are driving it just like any other LMP car. Especially Mister "I can adapt to any car in five minutes", because "any car" drives more or less like any other car. Except this one.

I haven't gotten mine yet, but I might here soon. From what I've heard of the preferred cornering method, I think I'll be alright, since that's how I usually drive anyway.

 

[ND4SPD]

I'm loving this car in game. You can't just simply hop in it and expect go drive it like an LMP1 car. I'm now only starting to get a decent setup on it. I'm still trying to get rid of the understeer on fast sweeping corners but I'm getting there. The real life car has a trick torque vectoring differential that I don't think PD has modeled correctly. I think that's one of the things that's only slightly holding it back.

 

[diptob79]

Great to see people exhanging views, experiences and resources. Thanks everybody for your contribution. I will update the OP with major info along the pages.

This car indeed requires different approach. I would like to add 2 points from my laps these few days.
1. Different braking point and cornering speed may cause conflicts with other car in mixed class race. Especially when they didn't realize how this car behaves.
2. After few hours driving this car and you switch to 'normal' car, I get this trauma (lol) of trailbraking and needs some time to get confident.

Thanks

 

[Jedi2016]

Having actually driven it now, I have to agree that all of your "tried and true" highly-perfected driving techniques flat-out don't work on this car. Luckily it's not too far off from my normal driving method, as I never do a lot of trail-braking anyway.

While it does have that particular weakness, it's not something that can't be overcome pretty easily, and the car has quite a few strengths that offset that. It's surprisingly nimble through tight corners, so much so that I think I'm oversteering when I'm not.. it's just turning that damned sharply. That's causing me to back off and try to straighten out when I don't need to do either one (something to adjust to). Second, the car is fast coming out of the corners, which again takes some getting used to. In most cars, you can't just slam on the gas on your way out without losing the rear. That's true on this car as well, but to a much lesser extent, and you can start accelerating earlier and harder than you're used to and still pull it out. It almost behaves like the Formula GT in that regard.

The impression I get from this car is "hard to master". It's one that needs specific practice, just drive it over and over again. Practice on every course before you try to race on it, know exactly what you can and cannot do in different parts of the track. Don't just run out and race it.

I did do one race on Cape Ring (came in third). I thought its handling would be a benefit there, and for the most part it was. Lost to the Jag LMP car, which was a lot faster than I was on the straightaways. But I could absolutely take him in the corners. But the biggest mistake I made (the one that cost me the race) was attempting to drive against the other cars. That method works everywhere except here. With the Deltawing, your enemy isn't the other cars.. it's the track. Ignore the AI as much as you can and just concentrate on getting the most out of every corner. Pass on the straights. You're coming out of the corners faster than they are, so it's not hard to zip past them as soon as you exit. On longer medium corners, you're probably still faster than they are, pass on the outside.

Don't be so scared of them tapping your rear on the way out. The DW's balance means the rear is very stiff as long as you're not turning or braking, so they won't be able to spin you as easily as they can in other cars. That said, don't hit them either. If you're late braking and rear-end one of them, chances are you'll end up backwards as the rear will just snap around when the front comes to a sudden stop.

 

[Swagger897]

Having actually driven it now, I have to agree that all of your "tried and true" highly-perfected driving techniques flat-out don't work on this car. Luckily it's not too far off from my normal driving method, as I never do a lot of trail-braking anyway.

While it does have that particular weakness, it's not something that can't be overcome pretty easily, and the car has quite a few strengths that offset that. It's surprisingly nimble through tight corners, so much so that I think I'm oversteering when I'm not.. it's just turning that damned sharply. That's causing me to back off and try to straighten out when I don't need to do either one (something to adjust to). Second, the car is fast coming out of the corners, which again takes some getting used to. In most cars, you can't just slam on the gas on your way out without losing the rear. That's true on this car as well, but to a much lesser extent, and you can start accelerating earlier and harder than you're used to and still pull it out. It almost behaves like the Formula GT in that regard.

The impression I get from this car is "hard to master". It's one that needs specific practice, just drive it over and over again. Practice on every course before you try to race on it, know exactly what you can and cannot do in different parts of the track. Don't just run out and race it.

I did do one race on Cape Ring (came in third). I thought its handling would be a benefit there, and for the most part it was. Lost to the Jag LMP car, which was a lot faster than I was on the straightaways. But I could absolutely take him in the corners. But the biggest mistake I made (the one that cost me the race) was attempting to drive against the other cars. That method works everywhere except here. With the Deltawing, your enemy isn't the other cars.. it's the track. Ignore the AI as much as you can and just concentrate on getting the most out of every corner. Pass on the straights. You're coming out of the corners faster than they are, so it's not hard to zip past them as soon as you exit. On longer medium corners, you're probably still faster than they are, pass on the outside.

Don't be so scared of them tapping your rear on the way out. The DW's balance means the rear is very stiff as long as you're not turning or braking, so they won't be able to spin you as easily as they can in other cars. That said, don't hit them either. If you're late braking and rear-end one of them, chances are you'll end up backwards as the rear will just snap around when the front comes to a sudden stop.

By the bolded remark do you mean with cars of similar specifications or nearly never trail brake at all?

There are some cars, such as small compacts, which trail braking is best, but then LMP 's and low COG GT cars such as the corvette it is best to brake fully before turning in, unless the road is cambered. I know that the r18 is a handful to slow it down, as the right rear or left front lock up randomly and shoot the car in different directions, making me over correct at times and miss my apex's. I have yet to really test it out but I have a feeling it will be one of the better cars for tracks like Spa and the Daytona 24, or any road course to begin with.

 

[OutspokenFlunky]

I guess I'm at a loss here on understanding why people think this thing is hard to drive. I can even trail brake the F outta this thing with little to no problem. I do have it at 550 PP using extra weight but it is still at the 35/65 ratio. I did encounter a lot of understeer so I lowered the front to near minimum and added some to the rear to help counter this. I also moved the ARB to 5.
Over all I think the 13 version is awesome. Not really that hard to drive. I was running 1:16.xxx on apricot in the S license races without really pushing it.

 

[ProjectWHaT]

I drove at Spa the other day. I try to steer the nose of the car a little bit away from the apexes and let the rear tires hit. So when you think you missed the apex, the rear will get it.

 

[Jedi2016]

By the bolded remark do you mean with cars of similar specifications or nearly never trail brake at all?

I don't really trail-brake at all. Even on the smaller cars, with FF cars I'll brake full-on before the turn, turn in on a glide, then punch it early and let the FF pull me through.

I've started using trail-braking more recently, but it's not something I'm particularly good at, and I generally only do it on larger corners where there's not as much risk of losing the rear end.

 

[ussr]

Can any one share he's setup for Delta Wing? I could use this R8 setup but it seems it need some changes. So does any one had some good specific for D-Wing setup's ?

 

[whereSTheFUhd]

How about this article from Top Gear magazine (I know, not really much of an indication of the car's behaviour, but it still says that you can't trail brake this car like most other cars):



Or how about Chris Harris's video of the car that I posted earlier:





Or Gordon Kirby's article, in which Bowlby himself states:



Or Lucas Ordoñez himself:



As I said earlier, everyone who's driven the car has said that you shouldn't trail brake when driving the DeltaWing. Now, if you have a better explanation as to why that is, I'd be happy to hear it.

Of course, as mistersafeway alluded to earlier, it is not actually impossible to trail brake in the DeltaWing in GT6, but there is a small window at the point which you start to steer into the corner where you can still brake and the car will remain stable; go past it and only then will it start to slide out.

And unless any of us have actually driven the DeltaWing in real life it's impossible for us to dismiss GT6's portrayal of the car as unrealistic or broken.



The car spinning out while trail braking in the game is not caused by the rear brakes locking up, as it does so even with ABS on. Indeed, when you brake in a straight line it does not lock up.

You seem to be rehashing the basic approach required to pilot the DeltaWing. Nowhere did I make any claims in regards to the general technique required to extract the best performance from the DeltaWing. I stated that the slightest indication of trail braking should not invariably lead to sudden and complete loss of the rear end.

It seemed you tried to support this behavior as realistic, by suggesting the exaggerated notion of a pendulum, which I also stated was not applicable and entirely misappropriated since the front is not doing the majority of the braking, a condition that would be required to swing the rear around the front pivot point.

Personally, I have not tried the DeltaWing in-game, however, it seems the main point of contention for its in-game representation was this particular behavior to rotate out of control with merely a hint of trail braking. Contrary to this representation in-game, one can see instances of trail braking occur in the real life races that the DeltaWing has participated in, without incurring the wrath of instant oversteer. Hence, the request to a specific statement explicitly articulating that any hint of trail braking would lead to an immediate oversteer situation. You have not provided this, nor does real life footage support this - the real life footage, in fact, refutes this.

 

[jen yu]

 

[baldgye]

Love the music

 

[ussr]

Can anyone share some settings for this car ?

 

[jen yu]

Only downfoce :1500
Hosepower:446
Suspension:none

 

[Gturbo5]

Good car for me... Your skills.

Me 1370 downforce
Anti Roll Rear 6-7/7
suspension default.


No spin...

 

[yuangsus]

Just got the DeltaWing and i gotta say... it's bad fast. The first time it drove it though, i was spinning like crazy. I thought i had just wasted 2mil but then i figured it out. For me, brake in a straight line and USE THE DOWNFORCE. This car really likes the fast corners. It's a bit precarious in the slow ones, but you just have to learn to trust it and know when it has grip, which is a lot. But yea, just be careful on the brakes and drive smooth, and trust it.

Used the stock setup with max downforce by the way.

Thank you for your advice to increase rear downforce. When I increase to 1500, the car is so stable made me couldn't believe it! While using 1000 downforce, I can do a little bit of trail braking, with 1500, I have much more confidence to do the trail braking and there is no need to worry too much about the spin characteristic. Thank you very much for helping me tame this beast!!!

 

[colj00]

i found you just gotta take it real slow.