Update 2.10 - Major PP changes

[Samus]

@SimonK
The only person that stated they bought new cars was Hamilton and one other no one else.

How many more do you need to believe that there is no difference?

 

[Zuel]

.and like we have said so many times, if you can't install the higher level engine mods then it's broken.

I never said this. All clearly stated that you don't have to put a stage 3 motor, turbo or even a super charger to meet a class at a de-tuned state. I shared a build for the Austin Van '04 running at full power at 615hp at 510pp in the 525pp. Getting out of the whole faster than cars with a stage 3 and de-tuned. Now to me that looks like the tuning method is broke. Stage three motors only come to life in the higher rpm range down the straight. If I'm half down at small straight and another car catches me like a cat running after a rat then they're de-tuned.

(addition)

Have you bothered to do any testing with a new fully broken in car SimonK?

 

[Samus]

I never said this. All clearly stated that you don't have to put a stage 3 motor, turbo or even a super charger to meet a class.

That may be true, but what if you want to? You know, because the game offers you them? Is the PP system still not broken in that case?

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Here’s a short brief for you.

As some of you know that the 525 class has been seeing a lot of the Aston Martin Vanquish ’04 on the track. I asked every driver of this car what they had on it. All stated a stage 3 motor and had to take of part to get it in the 525 class.

Aston Martin Vanquish ’04 1835kg (2,713.7ml) Base (482hp/7000rpm) 419ft-lb/5500 rpm) (457pp)

Here is the point you are missing and why so many of us are upset.

Your new Vanquish had 457pp stock.
Before the update it had 494pp.

So with all the stuff you have done to the car before the update it would have had MUCH more PP and would NOT be in the 525pp class.

The update did NOT change HP or weight. It is still the same car, but now it is allowed to run with MUCH slower cars.

What you are running now with 510pp should have more like 560pp.

 

[Zuel]

That may be true, but what if you want to? You know, because the game offers you them? Is the PP system still not broken in that case?

You add what ever you want to the cars. I never said you couldn't, I stated that you don't need a stage 3 on the higher CC's motor's as my build sheet clearly points outs. If you want to see the results build a new car to class 100% power and compare it to your de-tuned car for that class. Run both car on a track that is well balanced and tell me which car is faster.

 

[Tornado]

Have you bothered to do any testing with a new fully broken in car SimonK?

Stop spamming the thread with this. The PP system doesn't discern between new cars and broken in cars. You were linked to two completely different tests by two different people that showed that it doesn't for several cars.


For that matter, just stop and think for a second how useless it would be if cars bought before and after the update had different PP levels. Do you seriously not understand the issue with what you are basing your entire argument around?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

We will need to adapt anyway, so yeah, I will keep tuning, doing track days, and racing, regardless of how the PP system suck or not. Join us at Deadnutsevenracing, where PP don't mean squat

 

[Zuel]

Here is the point you are missing and why so many of us are upset.

Your new Vanquish had 457pp stock.
Before the update it had 494pp.

So with all the stuff you have done to the car before the update it would have had MUCH more PP and would NOT be in the 525pp class.

The update did NOT change HP or weight. It is still the same car, but now it is allowed to run with MUCH slower cars.

What you are running now with 510pp should have more like 560pp.

I'm not missing anything. So far all my car after the 2.10 up that have been tuned the same way through the 2.06 to 2.09 update are faster than before. Yes the 2.09 had the cars at a higher pp rating and yes the 2.10 lowered them. Though I see a major improvement in class and cars. You all may not see may have or will.

 

[Samus]

I'm not missing anything. So far all my car after the 2.10 up that have been tuned the same way through the 2.06 to 2.09 update are faster than before. Yes the 2.09 had the cars at a higher pp rating and yes the 2.10 lowered them. Though I see a major improvement in class and cars. You all may not see may have or will.

Yes, but not all of them. This is what you seem to be missing. If all cars universally were lowered there wouldn't be an issue. The problem is certain cars, mainly FR cars, have had their PP lowered more than others, those cars are now dominant, especially old muscle cars that can now have very high HP and still meet PP levels that it couldn't before.

 

[Zuel]

@Toronado
Come to me with something of meaning. RESULTS..

 

[Samus]

@Toronado
Come to me with something of meaning. RESULTS..

Jesus wept.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Now with this build I was able to outpace every car that was de-tuned to meet class besides one which I found out was running a super charger.

You were beating these cars because your car’s PP is artificially low.

That Vanquish should have about 560pp, and before the update it would have.

You are racing slower cars. It has nothing to do with anything else.

Get one of those cars you were beating – tune it anyway you want for the 525pp class and test it against your Vanquish, the Vanquish will win.

That is the point – the PP system gave a bunch of FR cars and the Ruf 3400s a huge HP advantage over other cars.

 

[Zuel]

Yes, but not all of them. This is what you seem to be missing. If all cars universally were lowered there wouldn't be an issue. The problem is certain cars, mainly FR cars, have had their PP lowered more than others, those cars are now dominant, especially old muscle cars that can now have very high HP and still meet PP levels that it couldn't before.

Because all those cars still have the 2.06 to 2.09 code. Remember when the 2.06 update came out and we noticed something funny with the cars. Some of us noticed that some of the cars that were tuned with the 2.05 update still had that code on the cars. The same thing has happened with this update. The cars still have the 2.09 code on them.

But in all the cars have improved in class, it may take you and others times to see, though once you all start seeing odd cars outpacing your tuned up 2.09 cars then you'll start asking questions and rebuilding your garage.

 

[Tornado]

@Toronado
Come to me with something of meaning. RESULTS..

You've already been given results. You ignored them.

You were already given examples of cars that are far faster when tuned to the same PP than before. You ignored them.

You were already shown by people why there is an issue with the amount of horsepower that certain cars can now have against others that are supposedly equal. You ignored them.

You were already told by people why even if they haven't tested new cars, it wouldn't matter. You ignored them.

You were told why you tuning a car for the new system and winning all of the races with it doesn't mean the PP system was balanced. You ignored them.




And this entire time, your entire argument basically just boils down to saying that you're right and the only way anyone would disagree is if they haven't replicated your extremely specific testing parameters that you've said you've done dozens of times now but still are completely incomprehensible; and thus because they haven't done whatever probably-inane tests that you have performed that prove why you're so right that you can start insulting others when they disagree, their opinions aren't valid.

Just stop wasting everyone's time and let people who actually know what they are talking about discuss this.

 

[Zuel]

You were beating these cars because your car’s PP is artificially low.

That Vanquish should have about 560pp, and before the update it would have.

You are racing slower cars. It has nothing to do with anything else.

Get one of those cars you were beating – tune it anyway you want for the 525pp class and test it against your Vanquish, the Vanquish will win.

That is the point – the PP system gave a bunch of FR cars and the Ruf 3400s a huge HP advantage over other cars.

RUF THE NEW SUPER CAR!!!. 👎

 

[Samus]

Because all those cars still have the 2.06 to 2.09 code. Remember when the 2.06 update came out and we noticed something funny with the cars. Some of us noticed that some of the cars that were tuned with the 2.05 update still had that code on the cars. The same thing has happened with this update. The cars still have the 2.09 code on them.

But in all the cars have improved in class, it may take you and others times to see, though once you all start seeing odd cars outpacing your tuned up 2.09 cars then you'll start asking questions and rebuilding your garage.

What complete baloney. The PP is a global system that affects all cars, what exactly do you think is different about FR cars that they're affected differently by the PP system? That sounds like a very lame excuse for why the PP system doesn't work.

Unless of course you want to show us evidence that the FR cars are "on 2.06 to 2.09" code.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

RUF THE NEW SUPER CAR!!!. 👎

You know what? You are a piece of work.

What does this have to do with ANYTHING I said?

By the way the cars don't have old code in them, that is about the dumbest thing you have said so far - and believe me that is saying a lot!

Cars are a database.
A database that points to the cars image, color and 3d model that is given to the rendering system.
A database of all of that particular car's attributes like installed parts, settings, and handling characteristic required by the physics engine.

One of those bits of data has to do with the cars initial PP setting, and that has what has been changed, but only on some of the cars.

It makes no difference if the car is in the dealership, or in your garage.

 

[Zuel]

OK some of you are just to bloody closed minded to see what has changed or to try and see what has changed. The reason why I believe the system was changed was due to the TT's events. All the de-tuning to fit a car to class for that event, which was out of class in the first place. All that data they from drivers running a de-tuned car was logged. Don't think for a moment they weren't logging the data from the cars. They seen what we were doing to the cars so they mad a change that they saw fit and you don't like it because you see that the cars are so uneven now.

It's sad that the GTP Community has some very closed minded people. Not all of you just some whom are unable to see with a open mind.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Zuel, with no disrespect at all, having read all of your posts, I'm finding the urge to headbutt my 42" plasma/monitor through my neighbours wall very difficult to resist. "That post gave me cancer" meme's spring to mind.

I think you should come back to this thread another day with a fresh mind set, and perhaps you'll fully take in everything that has been said?

Your general insults towards the community are helping none either, most of the people posting do actually know their arse from their elbow 👍

Do you not find it strange that you are pretty much singled out in your opinion? Sometimes, we just have to admit we may not be right all the time.

Regards.

 

[XDesperado67]

OK some of you are just to bloody closed minded to see what has changed or to try and see what has changed. The reason why I believe the system was changed was due to the TT's events. All the de-tuning to fit a car to class for that event, which was out of class in the first place. All that data they from drivers running a de-tuned car was logged. Don't think for a moment they weren't logging the data from the cars. They seen what we were doing to the cars so they mad a change that they saw fit and you don't like it because you see that the cars are so uneven now.

It's sad that the GTP Community has some very closed minded people. Not all of you just some whom are unable to see with a open mind.

The highlighted part of your post is the whole point of this thread!
In the real world there is no such thing as a PP rating for cars. PP is meant to be an in game tool that allows players to have competitive races. V2.10 has made it much more difficult to create competitive races and events not easier or better.

If the PP system doesn't enable players to look at the cars in their garage and easily determine what cars, regardless of the amount or kind of tuning has been done to them, that are roughly competitive then it serves no purpose.

While certain cars may be easier to drive at a given PP than others of the same PP, thus making them more likely to win, no cars should have a huge advantage in performance. Now after V2.10 you have some cars that way outclass the rest at any given PP.

 

[JJSCHMITTY2000]

Yeah, the PP system is kind of screwy. My Fiat 500 has 386 PP (low turbo, hate turbo lag on those small engines), while a Honda S2000 has about the same amount stock, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Here’s a short brief for you.

As some of you know that the 525 class has been seeing a lot of the Aston Martin Vanquish ’04 on the track. I asked every driver of this car what they had on it. All stated a stage 3 motor and had to take of part to get it in the 525 class. Some of them only had the sport exhaust installed to make it in class running at 100% power which mad the car around 620 hp. Now I build the same car with a stage one motor and I got 615 hp.. The car has 2,713.7 miles on it so there’s no need to break in. Here is what I would call a build sheet.

Aston Martin Vanquish ’04 1835kg (2,713.7ml) Base (482hp/7000rpm) 419ft-lb/5500 rpm) (457pp)

Window weight reduction 1835kg/1825kg (457pp)

Stage 1 weight reduction 1825kg/1641kg (466pp)

Stage 2 weight reduction 1641kg/1494kg (473pp)

Stage 3 weight reduction 14954kg/1384kg (479pp)

ECU 482hp/505hp (485pp)

Stage 1 motor 505hp/523hp (489pp)

Sport Intake Manifold 523hp/533hp (492pp)

Racing Air Filter 533hp/549hp (496pp)

Sport Exhaust Manifold 549hp/560hp (498pp)

Catalytic Convertor: Sport 560hp/572hp (501pp)

Titanium Racing Exhaust 572hp/615hp (510pp)

Final numbers 615hp/7400rpm 485ft-lb/6200rpm (510pp)

Now with this build I was able to outpace every car that was de-tuned to meet class besides one which I found out was running a super charger.

First, how to build a car to perform at it's max for any given PP level is not anything new, sorry to burst your bubble. Your technique above is correct, but it's been well known since the beginning of GT5. Since the power limiter was introduced it's been widely documented that excessive use of it robs you of HP, and pushes the peak of the torque curve lower and lower. Every car I have ever built conforms to this philosophy. Some guys use a lot of power limiter online maybe because they are unaware of this or they just don't want several models of the same car and prefer to use the power limiter to squeeze it into races. Point is, this is widely known in the tuning community and I'd guess, in GTP as a whole.

Second, the point you are missing is this. Using the proper tuning techniques to max out the performance of a car, still leaves a huge imbalance , in favour of many FR's, in just about all forms of racing/driving/tuning in GT5, where PP is the overriding limit. Doesn't seem to matter what tire is used either, as lap times on CM to RH seem to be falling like a stone on the Nurb PP Board in the Tuning section. Long established "standard" times are now irrelevant as lap times drop 10-15 seconds or more, all in favour of FR cars that were not competitive before.

As I understand it, a Silvia I entered in a Nurb Tuning Contest last year that ran around 8:29 on CS tires is now nearly 30 seconds faster. That's not tuning, that's not 2.06-2.09 Code, that's the crappy 2.10 update that just gave that Silvia 35% more HP for the same PP it had before the update.

So as I said earlier, if you have some magic technique to make all the other drivertrains magically faster to keep up with the now superfast FR's please share it, we would all love to see it and would hail you as the new King of GT5. But if all you are arguing is that you know how to tune a car to max it out at a given PP, been there, done that, old news.

 

[Steph290]

This guy Zuel. Either he takes us all for idiots or he's acting like one for reiterating the same crap time and time again. It doesn't take a seasoned pro to figure out that if you drop the pp of a vehicle then you wouldn't need to detune as much to reach a lower mark. (532pp-32pp > 505pp-5pp) to reach a goal of 500pp. Less use of the limiter keeps a better power curve. It has absolutely nothing to do with rebuilding the damn car. Fact is the system is seriously flawed Zuel. And if you can prove otherwise, why not race me or any other "noob" as we are called in a 4WD or FF car. Since you can steptune it shouldn't be a problem no? Also, I hope this satisfies your need for attention kid.

BTW, haven't touched the game since the update so you'd have that much more of an advantage seeing as how you understand the new pp system so well Zuel.

 

[lldantell]

I notice something with the pp when I was tuning a corvette with power upgrades.the small stuff boosts the pp by 1 and the exhaust and supercharger boosts it by 10 and 15.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

I notice something with the pp when I was tuning a corvette with power upgrades.the small stuff boosts the pp by 1 and the exhaust and supercharger boosts it by 10 and 15.

Each component adds a certain amount of HP and torque, which in turn effects the car's total PP rating. Some parts result in a higher PP than others as they generally add more torque. Installing a computer chip, Catalytic converter and Sports Intake Manifold is more efficient at increasing a car's PP than say, Engine Stage Tuning 1, as EST 1 gives an engine a big torque boost, and less of a horsepower boost.



On a not quite so related note to the thread, I just tested a Prowler online at 415PP. In a 12 car field consisting of the new "ringer" cars such as the older Silvia's and Vette's, I managed to launch from last to first in the space of around 150 yards. I gave a little 'toot toot' of the horn as I simply drove straight through the middle of the entire field and had all the time in the world to prepare for the first corner.

This needs fixing.

 

[Z1-AV69]

Because all those cars still have the 2.06 to 2.09 code. Remember when the 2.06 update came out and we noticed something funny with the cars. Some of us noticed that some of the cars that were tuned with the 2.05 update still had that code on the cars. The same thing has happened with this update. The cars still have the 2.09 code on them.

But in all the cars have improved in class, it may take you and others times to see, though once you all start seeing odd cars outpacing your tuned up 2.09 cars then you'll start asking questions and rebuilding your garage.

It's just not true. I'm rebuilding my whole garage because I tuned only 2 cars in all of 2.09 and setups from before are useless now. The cars that hadn't their PP changed are still the same. They don't stand a chance vs. those new monsters while the difference between a 2.09 car and a 2.10 car (PP unchanged) remained the same no matter when you bought it. None of my cars has stage 3 engine or turbo for that matter.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

On a not quite so related note to the thread, I just tested a Prowler online at 415PP. In a 12 car field consisting of the new "ringer" cars such as the older Silvia's and Vette's, I managed to launch from last to first in the space of around 150 yards. I gave a little 'toot toot' of the horn as I simply drove straight through the middle of the entire field and had all the time in the world to prepare for the first corner.

This needs fixing.

Yeah, the Prowler is another new ringer. I think it really should have been faster than it was, but not this much faster.

 

[NSXDriver]

the PP system is broken, doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

i was in a Nur room the other night driving the McLaren F1 against a Camaro Race Car that accelerated just as fast yet had major downforce and was much faster in the turns, even though i finished a second behind him and 14+ seconds ahead of 3rd place and the rest of the pack it shows how weighted PP is towards ringer cars as opposed to skilled drivers.

 

[Wankelhead]

IMO, since this is such a game changer, and this game is now rather old, this change should've never happened since people were confortable with what they had.

They should make and keep a single system through the hole game life, so the consumers don't have to feel puzzled with the changes, especially more so with the way PD deals with their fanbase in these situations, without saying a single word on how to deal with them. Like, for example, saying what was really changed or explain how the PPs are calculated.

That alone would avoid so many pointless discussions...

 

[TokoTurismo]

IMO, since this is such a game changer, and this game is now rather old, this change should've never happened since people were confortable with what they had.

They should make and keep a single system through the hole game life, so the consumers don't have to feel puzzled with the changes, especially more so with the way PD deals with their fanbase in these situations, without saying a single word on how to deal with them. Like, for example, saying what was really changed or explain how the PPs are calculated.

That alone would avoid so many pointless discussions...

Agreed. I kept telling to myself that PD shouldn't update GT5 anymore, it was perfect the way it was before. I also agree that PD REALLY needs to start talking and explaining stuff, because I get so bored and tired of seeing discussions that put me to sleep...

We know they're working hard on GT6, but just make one last update and be done with it please...