Update 2.10 - Major PP changes

[Samus]

If tire performance can reduce a lap time then it should be included in PP calcs.

I certainly think high grip tyres are more of an advantage to a car with poor handling than they are to a car that already has good handing and grip.

 

[NoizeboyMugen]

When I blow past JDM cars in my muscle cars at 450pp in the straights, I feel like honking the General Lee horn, doing the yee haw Bo Duke yell and waiving goodbye for good measure. I had alot of fun yesterday.

Just wondering what does that have to do with the thread? We're talking about the pp update not "Which is faster on straights JDM or Muscle?"

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Just wondering what does that have to do with the thread? We're talking about the pp update not "Which is faster on straights JDM or Muscle?"

I thought it was semi-relevant. Before V2.10, that situation would have been unlikely, but with the new PP update, muscle cars now absolutely blast past most JDM cars at the same PP. He was just expressing how it makes him feel.

 

[97z28]

AT NoizeboyMugen

I enjoy racing online alot more after 2.10. My muscle cars from the 60's- to early 2000 models actually have an advantage for a change. JDM cars handle better, while my muscle cars have more speed on the straights. Now I host sports soft rooms after 2.10. Before 2.10 I would mostly create race soft rooms for the simple reason I needed the extra grip to compete with the likes of type R NSX. No matter the tune, a 4th gen camaro isn't going to turn as well as a type R NSX or brake as well. Race softs in a way closed the gap between average handling cars and great handling cars. The problem was the type R NSX was just as quick, if not faster than my muscle cars in the straights leaving me at a disadvantage every race in handling and pure speed.

Another thing I like about 2.10 is the great variety of cars being used. Before 2.10 my rooms would always fill up with certain cars like standard M3, type R NSX, Evora. 14 of the 16 cars in my lobby were M3, type R NSX, Evora awhile back before 2.10.

 

[maxpontiac]

When I blow past JDM cars in my muscle cars at 450pp in the straights, I feel like honking the General Lee horn, doing the yee haw Bo Duke yell and waiving goodbye for good measure. I had alot of fun yesterday.

LOL! That's great. I by no means believe the updated Performance Points system is perfect, nor do I believe it is as bad as some make it out to be.

I see this a step in the right direction as PDI is attempting to bring out a balance in the game. Does it still need work? Yes. You won't catch me arguing over this fact.

Sure, it's not going to make everyone happy, but lets be honest here. An 800 BHP Chevelle should easily blow by a 300 BHP Acura on the straights. I also believe that since you can pretty much change out the entire suspension and thus bringing the "old" car up to date, I can see where their logic is.

I still think it's a mistake that tyres are not calculated in PP, they're a huge part of the physics engine and so it seems odd not to include them to me.

I disagree and I am glad PDI does as well. Using the real world 'Ring 24HR race as my example, tire compound does not determine car class.

I once read how Kaz's team switched compounds from a harder tire to a softer tire all the while staying in the GTR's class.

 

[Mulan]

They want to ad a great feature in GT6 - Perfect PP
I bet there will be some kind of response soon from PD...just wait for a tweet.

 

[llNovall]

Well, after a week of racing online in rooms with various PP levels and different tire types, I have to now agree, the changes are far too drastic. Lightweight, ff, and awd now have no chance in keeping up with the changed performance of fr high powered cars. PD does need to work on this. Best way would be to go back to original pp programming and simply uprate the performance pp ratings on those few speed cars that dominated most rooms.

 

[VolkswagenX]

Super GT racing is ruined for me I had them all tuned at 600 pp, a round number that keeps them near stock. All of them are around 510 hp (some a litlle les or more). I tested them all on suzuka and spa (love those tracks) and all my fastest cars are within a second from each other and a few or about 1.5 seconds slower. The 1.5 second slower cars was no problem for me because I expect them to be slower in real life.

I start GT5 up for the first time today and see my top cars still siting around the 600pp and I think to myself: this might still work since I race exclusively Super GT online (I love racing cars) . I scroll down and then the one car I forgot about is the yellow hat supra. It sits at around 580 pp and has... 588 hp with about 20 pp of room for more hp!

I was using this car alot when I started playing GT5 near launch and I always had max downforce so this car has max downforce. I have learned then I am faster with way less downforce. You know what happens when I lower the downforce at the rear? Less pp and more HP!!!!

I know the Yellow Hat Supra handles worse than other Super GT cars but its not ondriveble and with +100 hp extra this thing will beat everything in the 600 pp range

I'm hoping people will get back to hp and weight limits and keep cars in the same class or it is over for me

 

[97z28]

Whats so bad about older muscle cars having more speed on the straights, more variety of cars being used online after 2.10? It certainly wasn't balanced before 2.10 with a few cars dominating the rest no matter the track at low PP. When an online street car lobby fills up with 16 players, and these racers are only using a handful of cars, something wasn't right. I simply do not see 3 to 4 cars being used constantly dominating everyone forcing others to use said cars. PD brought order out of chaos.

Perhaps sports soft rooms will become more popular. Most of the power boys won't be able to control muscle cars on sports soft. Another suggestion would be to host the old HP and weight limit before the PP system if you dislike the changes made after 2.10.

I like the changes. Muscle cars actually have an advantage now in straight line speed. Gone are the days when standard M3, type R NSX, Evora would out accelerate you while out turning you too. Variety is back.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

I still think it's a mistake that tyres are not calculated in PP, they're a huge part of the physics engine and so it seems odd not to include them to me.

I can't agree with that at all.

I don't want cars running around in a tight race with different tire types. The people running with inferior tires have to brake earlier than those running RSs.

That could get nasty at the hairpin turns.

 

[GBRC tyrrell]

Not necessarily, as the car with inferior tyres will have outrun the other car on the run down to the hairpin. Good fun to be had.

 

[MrWednesday]

Whats so bad about older muscle cars having more speed on the straights

Nothing would be wrong with it if the PP were in agreement with the performance, but it's not.

 

[Wankelhead]

I like the changes. Muscle cars actually have an advantage now in straight line speed. Gone are the days when standard M3, type R NSX, Evora would out accelerate you while out turning you too. Variety is back.

To that I just have to say:

Just like the fastest cars for the previous PP system were found, let people get used to the system how it is now, and eventually the fastest cars for this one will be found too. Therefore, GT5 will have as much variety as it had before this patch.
In other words, before were the M3s and NSXs, and now... we have to wait to find out, though the muscle cars seem to be the best so far.

 

[NoizeboyMugen]

AT NoizeboyMugen

I enjoy racing online alot more after 2.10. My muscle cars from the 60's- to early 2000 models actually have an advantage for a change. JDM cars handle better, while my muscle cars have more speed on the straights. Now I host sports soft rooms after 2.10. Before 2.10 I would mostly create race soft rooms for the simple reason I needed the extra grip to compete with the likes of type R NSX. No matter the tune, a 4th gen camaro isn't going to turn as well as a type R NSX or brake as well. Race softs in a way closed the gap between average handling cars and great handling cars. The problem was the type R NSX was just as quick, if not faster than my muscle cars in the straights leaving me at a disadvantage every race in handling and pure speed.

Another thing I like about 2.10 is the great variety of cars being used. Before 2.10 my rooms would always fill up with certain cars like standard M3, type R NSX, Evora. 14 of the 16 cars in my lobby were M3, type R NSX, Evora awhile back before 2.10.

Ok I see where your going with this. Ill admit it the update does make the whole jdm vs muscle shootout more even.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Whats so bad about older muscle cars having more speed on the straights, more variety of cars being used online after 2.10? It certainly wasn't balanced before 2.10 with a few cars dominating the rest no matter the track at low PP. When an online street car lobby fills up with 16 players, and these racers are only using a handful of cars, something wasn't right. I simply do not see 3 to 4 cars being used constantly dominating everyone forcing others to use said cars. PD brought order out of chaos.

Perhaps sports soft rooms will become more popular. Most of the power boys won't be able to control muscle cars on sports soft. Another suggestion would be to host the old HP and weight limit before the PP system if you dislike the changes made after 2.10.

I like the changes. Muscle cars actually have an advantage now in straight line speed. Gone are the days when standard M3, type R NSX, Evora would out accelerate you while out turning you too. Variety is back.

Variety isn't back. Domination is still there in a handful of cars it's just a different handful of cars.

 

[tlsuth41]

I just wish when they made changes they did in fact test it to make sure they are making a positive change.

Many people have invested a great deal of time in putting their cars together and finding what works.

To make such DRASTIC changes just doesn't make sense. Balance is what they were after it certainly did not work out well.

We did have some cars that stood out a little before 2.10. Now we have cars that are simply way too fast in comparison to others.

I hope they find a middle ground that actually takes into consideration all that matters in racing.

 

[machschnel]

As much as I'd like to blame Polyphony for this, I just can't.

Either you hold a one make, balanced race or you limit cars by PP and end up with certain cars having unfair advantages. There is no way around this, which begs the question - why don't you hold one make races? No excuses, no "your car's OP", just simple, best driver wins races.

I mean, by definition you can't "balance" two different things. Sure, you can get close, but when the winner is often decided by under a second, it's just not good enough.

 

[Samus]

As much as I'd like to blame Polyphony for this, I just can't.

Who would you like to blame then? Will Ferrel? Dan Greenawalt?

Either you hold a one make, balanced race or you limit cars by PP and end up with certain cars having unfair advantages. There is no way around this, which begs the question - why don't you hold one make races? No excuses, no "your car's OP", just simple, best driver wins races.

Maybe because that is the whole point of the PP system in the first place? To match a wide variety of cars? They manage it in the real world, although they don't use a PP system obviously, the principle is still the same though, they try to balance different cars in racing series. Take BTCC, you have FWD/RWD, NA/Turbo, they have to try and balance those cars the best they can.

I mean, by definition you can't "balance" two different things. Sure, you can get close, but when the winner is often decided by under a second, it's just not good enough.

Of course you can. You could balance me and Usain Bolt in a 100m sprint if you created a good enough algorithim to determine how much he would have to be penalised to level the playing field. It's not exactly like that in GT5 but the principle is the same, an algorithm (PP) is created to try and level the playing field. Yes you're always going to have certain cars performing better than others and then that is when you make tweaks to those cars. As it is at the moment the whole PP algorithm needs a tweak, it's not balancing cars as well as it should.

 

[CJSpencer77]

As it is at the moment the whole PP algorithm needs a tweak, it's not balancing cars as well as it should.

It cant balance cars as well as it should, the PP algorithim that would balance cars properly would be ridiculous, far too many variables needed to make it viable, in my opinon what is needed is a class specific PP system.

Im not saying ditch the pp system but it would make more sense if it was class specific, i.e. a PP range for GT500 that only applies to GT500 cars, sure there would still be differences between the cars but they are all roughly equal in terms of power/weight/aero/tyre size etc. etc. to start with which would make the differences in performance from the current PP algoritihim a lot smaller.

obviously some groups of cars dont really fit into neat groups but i think a system like this would help a lot on the whole, atm you can have a NSX and a plymouth cuda on 600pp that are meant to be equal in perfomance? not happening

 

[Chrunch Houston]

All these physics changes…

I have lots of well balanced FR cars that I tuned ages ago for 450pp.

Lately I have been going through my standard car garage looking at cars in the 370-390PP that I had originally tuned to 450PP, but I had dropped off my favorite list because they weren’t fast enough.

Tonight I grabbed the Nissan SKYLINE GTS-t Type M (R32) ’91. I remember liking the looks of the car (I had even painted it before I tuned it) and after I tuned it, it had great grip. I dropped it off of my favorite car list ages ago because it just wasn’t that fast.

Tonight I dialed that car up to 425PP for a race at Trial Mountain.

I started dead last and passed about 4 cars before turn 1. I fell in line after that and followed the pack into the tunnel. I took the right lane into the tunnel and coming to the next right hand turn trying to hold the inside line and OMG I went two-wheeling and practically mashed the guy next to me into the rocks.

So I started with an OK car - tuned well, but not so fast. Update 2.09 destroyed that cars handling.

Update 2.10 fixed the cars slowness. But the extra speed has only compounded the 2.09 ‘I wanna flip over’ problem.

Keep in mind the rooms I room are geared for maximum grip – many of you that run on less grippy tires may not have this flipping over problem.

I’m not asking for advice, just sharing my experience with the last couple of updates.

BTW: I have a very good friend that has quit racing with me since the 2.09 – his cars getting on up on 2 wheels was the final straw for him – I really miss him being in my room.

 

[montez34]

Nascars are killers in 500-600 pp rooms now, they lost over 60pp after the update. I was beating nsx race cars and the honda wieder in my 2011 Brian Vickers Camry, I raced for 4 hours one night and only lost once because I wrecked bad.

 

[Z1-AV69]

Well, after a week of racing online in rooms with various PP levels and different tire types, I have to now agree, the changes are far too drastic. Lightweight, ff, and awd now have no chance in keeping up with the changed performance of fr high powered cars. PD does need to work on this. Best way would be to go back to original pp programming and simply uprate the performance pp ratings on those few speed cars that dominated most rooms.

This. It's so obvious.

 

[Wild Cobra Z28]

Updated the cars in post 312 again. Added the following cars verified with no PP change:

AC Cars 427 S/C ’66
Acura DN-X Concept ’02
Acura NSX ’91
Acura NSX RM ’91
Alfa Romeo 147 2.0 TWIN SPARK ’02
Alfa Romeo 147 TI 2.0 TWIN SPARK ’06
Alfa Romeo 166 2.5 V6 24V Sportronic ’98
Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione ’08
Alfa Romeo Brera Sky Window 3.2 JTS Q4 ’06
Alpine A310 1600VE ’73
Audi Le Mans quattro ’03
Audi Nuvolari quattro ’03
Audi R8 4.2 FSI R tronic ’07
Audi R8 5.2 FSI quattro ’09
Audi R8 LMS Race Car ’09
Audi R8 Race Car (Audi PlayStation Team ORECA) ’05
Autobacs ARTA Garaiya ’03
Autobacs Garaiya ’02
BMW M3 GTR ’03
Caterham Seven Fireblade ’02
Citroën 2CV Type A ’54
Citroën C3 1.6 ’02
Citroën Xantia 3.0i V6 Exclusive ’00
Citroën Xsara VTR ’03
Cizeta V16T ’94
Daihatsu Copen Detachable Top ’02
Daihatsu MOVE SR-XX 2WD ’97
Daihatsu SIRION X4 (J) ’00
Daihatsu STORIA CX 2WD ’98
Dodge Viper GTS R Concept ’00
Dodge Viper GTS-R Team Oreca Race Car #51 ’00
Eagle Talon Esi ’97
Fiat 500 L ’69
Fiat Barchetta Giovane Due ’00
Fiat Panda Super i.e. ’90
Fiat Punto HGT Abarth ’00
Ford Ford GT ’02
Ford Ford GT ’05
Ford Ford GT ’05 (No Stripe)
Ford Ford GT LM Race Car
Ford Ford GT LM Race Car Spec II
Ford GT40 Race Car ’69
Ford Taurus SHO ’98
Gran Turismo Red Bull X2010 S. Vettel
Hommell Berlinette R/S Coupe ’99
Honda ACCORD Coupe ’88
Honda BALLADE SPORTS CR-X 1.5i ’83
Honda CITY Turbo II ’83
Honda CIVIC SiR-II (EG) ’92
Honda CIVIC TYPE R (EP) ’04
Honda CR-X SiR ’90
Honda CR-Z TC
Honda INTEGRA TYPE R (DC2) ’98
Honda INTEGRA TYPE R (DC2) ’99
Honda INTEGRA TYPE R (DC5) ’03
Honda MUGEN MOTUL CIVIC Si Race Car ’87
Honda N360 ’67
Honda NSX ’01
Honda NSX ’95
Honda NSX-R Concept ’01
Honda TAKATA DOME NSX ’03
Hyundai Clix Concept ’01
Hyundai Coupe FX ’01
Jaguar XJ220 LM Race Car
Lamborghini Aventador LP 700-4 '11
Lamborghini Countach 25th Anniversary ’88
Lamborghini NOMAD Diablo GT-1 (JGTC) ’00
Lancia DELTA HF Integrale Rally Car ’92
Lancia DELTA S4 Rally Car ’85
Lancia STRATOS ’73
Land Rover Range Stormer Concept ’04
Marcos Mini Marcos GT ’70
Mazda Atenza Concept ’01
Mazda DEMIO SPORT ’03
Mazda Furai Concept ’08
Mazda Mazda6 Concept ’01
Mini MINI COOPER S Countryman '11
Mitsubishi 3000GT SL (J) ’96
Mitsubishi CZ-3 Tarmac Rally Car
Mitsubishi ECLIPSE GT ’06
Mitsubishi FTO GPX ’97
Mitsubishi FTO Super Touring Car
Mitsubishi GTO Twin Turbo ’95
Mitsubishi GTO Twin Turbo ’96
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution II GSR ’94
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution III GSR ’95
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution Super Rally Car ’03
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VII RS ’01
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X TC
Mitsubishi MINICA DANGAN ZZ ’89
Nissan CUBE EX (FF/CVT) ’02
Nissan GT-R R35 TC
Nissan Leaf G '11
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R R32 TC
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R R33 TC
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R R34 TC
Renault Sport Clio Renault Sport V6 24V ’00
Seat Ibiza Cupra ’04
Subaru IMPREZA TC
Toyota PRIUS TC
Volkswagen 1200 '66
Volkswagen Bora V6 4MOTION ’01
Volkswagen Scirocco R '10


These cars are added, and have a PP change:

Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint Speciale ’63
Alfa Romeo GIULIA TZ2 carrozzata da ZAGATO CN.AR750106 ’65 (Pebble Beach Concours d’Elegance Gran Turismo Trophy 2009)
Alpine A110 1600S ’73
Amuse Carbon R (R34) ’04
Amuse NISMO 380RS Super Leggera
Amuse S2000 Street Version ’04
Aston Martin DB9 Coupe ’06
Aston Martin V12 Vantage '10
Aston Martin V8 Vantage ’99
Audi A4 Touring Car ’04
BLITZ ER34 D1 SPEC ’04
BMW M3 GTR Race Car ’01
Buick Special ’62
Callaway C12 ’03
Chevrolet Camaro SS ’00
Chevrolet Camaro Z28 Coupe ’97
Chevrolet Corvette Convertible (C1) ’54
Chevrolet Corvette Coupe (C2) ’63
Chevrolet Corvette GRAND SPORT (C4) ’96
Chevrolet Corvette Z06 (C6) RM '06
Chrysler 300C ’05
Chrysler Prowler ’02
Dodge Charger Super Bee 426 Hemi ’71
Ford Mustang GT ’05
Ford SVT F-150 Lightning ’03
Honda S2000 (EU) ’01
Honda S2000 (US) ’01
Honda S500 ’63
Honda S800 RSC Race Car ’68
Infiniti G35 COUPE ’03
Isuzu PIAZZA XE ’81
Jaguar XFR ’10
Jaguar XKR Coupe ’99
Jay leno Tank Car ’03
Jensen Interceptor MkIII ’74
Lexus IS 300 Sport Cross ’01
Lexus SC 430 (US) ’01
Mazda BP FALKEN RX-7 ’03
Mazda éfini RX-7 Type RS (FD) ’96
Mazda MX-5 1800 RS (NB, J) ’04
Mazda MX-5 J-Limited (NA, J) ’91
Mazda MX-5 Miata (NA) ’89
Mazda MX-5 Miata 1.8 RS (NB, J) ’98
Mazda MX-5 Miata 1600 NR-A (NB, J) ’04
Mazda MX-5 Miata 1800 RS (NB, J) ’00
Mazda MX-5 Miata 1800 RS (NB, J) ’04
Mazda MX-5 Miata S-Special Type I (NA, J) ’95
Mazda Roadster TC (Touring Car)
Mazda RX-7 GT-X (FC, J) ’90
Mazda RX-7 LM Race Car
Mazda RX-7 TC
Mazda RX-7 Type R Bathurst R (FD) ’01
Mazda RX-7 Type RS (FD) ’98
Mazda RX-7 Type RS (FD, J) ’96
Mazda RX-8 ’03
Mazda RX-8 Concept (Type-I) ’01
Mercedes-Benz E 55 AMG ’02
Mercury Cougar XR-7 ’67
Mitsubishi Lancer 1600 GSR Rally Car ’74
Mugen MUGEN S2000 ’00
Nissan 240RS Rally Car ’85
Nissan 240SX ’96
Nissan 350Z Gran Turismo 4 Ltd. (Z33) ’05
Nissan 350Z Roadster (Z33, US) ’03
Nissan BLUEBIRD Rally Car (510) ’69
Nissan CALSONIC SKYLINE ’00
TVR Tuscan Speed 6 ’00 (RM) made

Some of the above cars were corrected rather than added:

Ford Ford GT ’05
Honda S500 ’63
Honda S800 RSC Race Car ’68
Land Rover Range Stormer Concept ’04
Volkswagen 1200 '66

 

[KiroKai]

I certainly think high grip tyres are more of an advantage to a car with poor handling than they are to a car that already has good handing and grip.

Might be late to reply but that's the point of including tyres in the PP calculation; give the high power bad handling cars better tyres but less power, while the better handling cars get more power on slightly worse tyres.

The problem with this in GT5 will probably be that the difference between racing tyres and sports tyres is way too big.

 

[MonGnoM]

It seems like some cars are faster now.
I usually ran with my Mitsubishi Lancer RM on my self made test track a 1;59.5XX
It was quite hard before, to break the two mins mark.
Yesterday. i ran, still with cold tyres; a 1;56,943...

before, i were never faster than 1;59,2XX

nearly 3 seconds...

 

[maxpontiac]

There is a 550 PP Time Trial going right now in the Seasonal Races.

If you look at the leaderboards, you will notice that the 4WD Nissan GTR dominates them. I personally went through 7-10 pages and saw nothing but one variant of the GTR.

Surely if the PP were set to favor the RWD layout someone out of the half a million GT5 players would storm the leaderboards in a RWD car.

Right?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Most can't really push 550PP FR car on comfort soft to beat the awesomeness of traction found in Nissan GTR Maybe super aliens can ?

 

[maxpontiac]

Most can't really push 550PP FR car on comfort soft to beat the awesomeness of traction found in Nissan GTR Maybe super aliens can ?

And that sir is exactly my point.👍

 

[Tornado]

That one of the cars that was already dominant before 2.10 is still dominant after 2.10 under at least one situation (in this case, a 550 PP race on crappy tires), so the criticisms about how heavily boosted FR cars are in other situations (most notably in 450pp and below from the results in this thread so far) aren't accurate?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I think there are other factors like driver skill, tires and aids allowed, penalty use, tire wear level and damage. Room settings hugely affect the quality of the race.

I often host track days with occasional races in between track change, 400 to 600 PP cars on comfort medium, no ABS or other aids, penalty enabled, tire wear on ( fast ), and heavy damage. The usual track are Daytona Road Course, Monza, Suzuka, London Reverse, Madrid Mini, Spa, and a few others. These usually end in a quite close race between 3 or 4 drivers, most that would stay in my room anyway

I had one session in 2.10 recently, 3 other drivers were racing in a 450PP cars, 1 FR, 1 MR, 2 AWD and 1 FF. All of them finished the race within 3 seconds apart. The winner was an AWD car, the race was at Laguna Seca and tire wear was on fast.

I never hosted room with tires higher than comfort medium, the settings are always constant : no ABS with heavy damage + penalty and tire wear ( normal or fast ), so I don't really feel badly affected by the FR cars taking unfair advantage.