US Taxpayers Pay Over $1,600 Per Prayer To Congressional Chaplains

[JKgo]

....There's something I want to ask here - since I've never paid much attention to political landscape, whether it's in US or anywhere else, is it customary to always hire an outside chaplain to offer a prayer service?

Can it be not done by a member of Congress instead? Like the Speaker? Wouldn't that serve the interests of reigining in a needless expenditure, and at the same time appease the god-fearing politicians' nerves?

It's not like a random guy can't come up with an inspirational quote or two; just google. Hell, ask one of the underlings to do it on a coffee break or something....

I mean, to quote the immortal words of JC, how hard can it be??

 

[huskeR32]

As to the rest of it your point is irrelevant.

No, it's not. In order for Obama's vacation time to be at all relevant to a conversation about government waste, it would need to be massively out of line with normal presidential behavior. And guess what? That's not the case at all.

If we're so concerned about the federal waste of money on prayers how about Obama play some local courses in DC to get his golf fetish in and save all the money spent on Air Force 1?

Again, if you're going to advocate for that, then you need to also say that no president should leave D.C. ever. Is that really the stance you want to take?

If it were me being outraged about the $800K I'd be spitting fire over $3million on a round of golf, let alone 247 of them. But apparently $8 is a gross abuse of taxpayer money but $3million on golf isn't.

I don't know how many other ways I can say this, but it's not about the money itself, it's about the selective way that it's appropriated. Congress is using our money to promote one religion while ignoring all others. On that question, Obama's golf trips remain utterly irrelevant.

 

[Joel]

I was wrong about the 100 trips. Can't rely on my memory like I used to. It's actually 247 as of 9 months ago.

As to the rest of it your point is irrelevant. I'm throwing up Obama's golf outings in juxtaposition to $800,000 spent on prayers. If we're so concerned about the federal waste of money on prayers how about Obama play some local courses in DC to get his golf fetish in and save all the money spent on Air Force 1? If it were me being outraged about the $800K I'd be spitting fire over $3million on a round of golf, let alone 247 of them. But apparently $8 is a gross abuse of taxpayer money but $3million on golf isn't.

It's not 3M for each round of golf times 247 rounds. The article talks about a specific trip to a specific course, the majority of his rounds of golf are at Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland or Fort Belvoir in Virginia which are basically local to DC. The majority of the cost of that trip to California was using Air Force One and the security detail that comes with it, $3M for a round of golf! is really not a meaningful thing to say when it would cost pretty much the same if he went to McDonalds (or flew to Texas to stay at the Bush family ranch as his predecessor liked to do). He played golf with Larry Ellison on that trip, and the club's minimum net worth requirement in $35M. I have a very hard time believing he spent his whole time there discussing the condition of the fairways.

Regardless, this is a false equivalency and it's not at all relevant to the OP. The most powerful person in the world working the most stressful job in the world having some downtime and their security detail costing a lot of money is not equivalent to spending money on congressional chaplains.

 

[GBO Possum]

Regardless, this is a false equivalency and it's not at all relevant to the OP.

As the original poster, I totally agree.

My point was that spending ANY extra money on having someone say prayers is absurd

1. It is favoring a religion since not all gods were being prayed to
2. It's a waste of effort since prayer has never been proven to be effective at anything
3. If they really MUST have prayers, then at zero incremental cost (apart from the waste of time), they could just assign the reading job to anyone in the room. Any superstitious person can talk to a god.

 

[Johnnypenso]

No, it's not. In order for Obama's vacation time to be at all relevant to a conversation about government waste, it would need to be massively out of line with normal presidential behavior. And guess what? That's not the case at all.

It only needs to be unnecessary spending to be waste. Try making a case that spending $3million on a round of golf is efficient use of tax dollars then get back to me. Spending millions of dollars on a round of golf isn't necessary when there are courses nearby that don't require the use of AF1. It's the very definition of goverment waste.

Again, if you're going to advocate for that, then you need to also say that no president should leave D.C. ever. Is that really the stance you want to take?

?

I don't know how many other ways I can say this, but it's not about the money itself, it's about the selective way that it's appropriated. Congress is using our money to promote one religion while ignoring all others. On that question, Obama's golf trips remain utterly irrelevant.

Remember this? If $8 is a gross abuse of taxpayer funds that could go to other programs, how can you justify spending $3 million on a round of golf? One golf trip alone could raise the minimum wage for part time workers from $7.50-15.00 for 20,000 weeks.

Trying to justify that is ludicrous. It is government waste pure and simple. Let's just call a spade a spade. Trying to justify it by saying because President and history doesn't alter that fact that it's unnecessary spending that could have been put to better use which is essentially the only argument I've seen for $3 million rounds of golf. I suspect the whole outrage over the OP is the fact that it's related to religion and has nothing to do with government waste at all.

It's not 3M for each round of golf times 247 rounds. The article talks about a specific trip to a specific course, the majority of his rounds of golf are at Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland or Fort Belvoir in Virginia. The majority of these costs is using Air Force One and the security detail that comes with it, $3M for a round of golf! is really not a reasonable thing to say when it would cost pretty much the same if he went to McDonalds (or flew to Texas to stay at the Bush family ranch).

You don't need AF1 to fly to McDonalds, you only need a security detail and a few limos, some scouting etc., so you're wrong about that sorry.

Regardless, this is a false equivalency and it's not at all relevant to the OP. The most powerful person in the world working the most stressful job in the world having some downtime is not equivalent to spending money on congressional chaplains. He played golf with Larry Ellison on that trip, and the club's minimum net worth requirement in $35M. I have a very hard time believing he spent his whole time there discussing the condition of the fairways.

There's no false equivalency because I'm not equating the two things. I'm saying they fall under the same umbrella of unnecessary government spending. Saying a Porsche is a car and a Lada is a car isn't a false equivalency correct?

Re: Larry Ellison, I'm not sure meeting with a multi-billionaire is justification for using $3 million of taxpayer dollars to play a round of golf. They can't talk on the phone can't they? Or over lunch in the White House say? Order in some Mc'Donalds and save the cost of the security detail? If Larry is there surely it's for some personal benefit so maybe he could cover the cost out of his $billions? If Trump were spending $3 million to play golf with the Koch brothers would you object to that?

As the original poster, I totally agree.

My point was that spending ANY extra money on having someone say prayers is absurd

1. It is favoring a religion since not all gods were being prayed to
2. It's a waste of effort since prayer has never been proven to be effective at anything
3. If they really MUST have prayers, then at zero incremental cost (apart from the waste of time), they could just assign the reading job to anyone in the room. Any superstitious person can talk to a god.

So you'd also agree that spending $3 million on a round of golf is money that could be put to better use right? Any golf course in decent condition should do right? Say one in or around Washington instead of flying somewhere in AF1?

 

[Joey D]

Remember this? If $8 is a gross abuse of taxpayer funds that could go to other programs, how can you justify spending $3 million on a round of golf? One golf trip alone could raise the minimum wage for part time workers from $7.50-15.00 for 20,000 weeks.

Trying to justify that is ludicrous. It is government waste pure and simple. Let's just call a spade a spade. Trying to justify it by saying because President and history doesn't alter that fact that it's unnecessary spending that could have been put to better use which is essentially the only argument I've seen for $3 million rounds of golf. I suspect the whole outrage over the OP is the fact that it's related to religion and has nothing to do with government waste at all.

It's pretty easy to justify the $3 million since the American taxpayer pays for all their leader's living expenses, including vacations. It comes with the job and a vacation or any form of recreation for that matter helps in preventing the President from burning out over the 4 or 8 year term, which I think many Americans would agree is an appropriate use of tax dollars. The round of golf wasn't $3 million either, a vast majority of that was transportation and security, which isn't cheap.

The difference between funding a chaplain for Congress and paying for a vacation for the president is that vacation is needed for an employee of an extremely high pressure job, where they are expected to be at the ready 24/7 is needed so they can unwind. Paying for a chaplain isn't necessary since it doesn't provide a benefit nor is it required to perform the job of Congressmen. Now if Congress wanted to ask for volunteers or even have eternal employees (Congressmen) perform prayers, then that would be acceptable.

Obama has done many things that are a misuse of taxpayer money, but golfing isn't one of them.

Also it's not really the responsibility of the taxpayer to fund an increase in minimum wage, so whether or not $3 million could increase wages for an undetermined amount of part time works is irrelevant. I suppose you could make the argument that part time government employees that are paid for with tax dollars could have an increase in pay, but since I (nor I'm guessing most people) don't know what the average government employee makes it's really hard to say.

 

[huskeR32]

It only needs to be unnecessary spending to be waste.

@Danoff already made a strong argument that presidential vacations are not unnecessary.

Try making a case that spending $3million on a round of golf is efficient use of tax dollars then get back to me.

What you keep overlooking here is that the vast majority of that $3 million has nothing to do with golf.

Obama plays $3 million rounds of golf the same way George Bush took trips to a $3 million-per-visit ranch.

No matter where a president goes, or what he does when he's there, he's going to incur a couple million dollars worth of transportation and security costs. The only way to avoid this is to not allow the president to go on vacation. Which is silly.

Spending millions of dollars on a round of golf isn't necessary when there are courses nearby that don't require the use of AF1.

A lot of his golf trips are to nearby courses. Another good chunk of them happen when he's already traveled somewhere for a different reason - either presidential business or vacation - and the travel/security costs are already paid anyways.

Remember this? If $8 is a gross abuse of taxpayer funds that could go to other programs, how can you justify spending $3 million on a round of golf? One golf trip alone could raise the minimum wage for part time workers from $7.50-15.00 for 20,000 weeks.

Seeing that I'm not the person who made that post, I'm baffled as to why you're trying to use it to paint me as a hypocrite.

Trying to justify that is ludicrous. It is government waste pure and simple.

I'll just ask it straight: are all presidential vacations "ludicrous" and "waste(ful)?" Or just when it's Obama?

Let's just call a spade a spade. Trying to justify it by saying because President and history doesn't alter that fact that it's unnecessary spending that could have been put to better use which is essentially the only argument I've seen for $3 million rounds of golf.

Stop wording it that way. It's a $3 million dollar vacation. Which you either think presidents should be allowed to take, or not. That it's Obama, or that he chooses to play a round of golf on that vacation, is entirely irrelevant.

I suspect the whole outrage over the OP is the fact that it's related to religion and has nothing to do with government waste at all.

To me, it is indeed about religion, and I've been quite clear on that the whole time. Spend money on all religions, or none of them, I don't care. Just stop giving preference to one of them.

 

[Johnnypenso]

To me, it is indeed about religion, and I've been quite clear on that the whole time. Spend money on all religions, or none of them, I don't care. Just stop giving preference to one of them.

At least we can agree on that. The part about it being about religion that is.

 

[Joel]

This is one of those things where he (or any President) can never win. Vacation in a normal city and they get grilled for holding up traffic and closing off tourist attractions. Vacation in a national park and they get grilled for having the park sectioned off from the public. If they went to a restaurant they'd get heat for having the whole place closed to the public for them. Bill Clinton got heat for vacationing at an exclusive resort so he went to a national park where he got heat for disrupting the hiking season. The Secret Service prefers the President goes to an exclusive resort or a private ranch/property where they can secure the area easily. They like vacations to island resorts because it's so easy to control who comes on or leaves the island. They like golf courses because they're private and easy to secure. They like high end resorts that are used to protecting the privacy and security of celebrities and public figures.

You don't need AF1 to fly to McDonalds, you only need a security detail and a few limos, some scouting etc., so you're wrong about that sorry.

He already does what you're asking of him, his regular recreation is done pretty frugally all things considered. Most of the golf he plays is at an Air Force base 20 miles away in Maryland, an Army base 19 miles away in Virginia, or in places he's already travelling to on government business and where he would already have a security detail with him. He doesn't just drop fat stacks every time he wants to play a quick 9.

He takes a couple family vacations a year, which is par for the course for most presidents. Bush and Reagan liked to go home to their family ranches in Texas or California (by AF1), and Obama likes to golf on vacation or go home to Hawaii. There is nothing unreasonable, abnormal, or unnecessary about a president taking a couple vacations a year away from DC.

There's no false equivalency because I'm not equating the two things. I'm saying they fall under the same umbrella of unnecessary government spending. Saying a Porsche is a car and a Lada is a car isn't a false equivalency correct?

It's not the same umbrella of unnecessary spending. We can argue back and forth all day about how frugal he should be on vacation but the fact is the most powerful person in the world with the most stressful job in the world needs time to unwind and de-stress, and it's not unreasonable they'd want to leave DC to do so. Congress does not need to pay chaplains to lead them in prayer, seven members of Congress are ordained ministers, there is no reason one of them, another member of Congress, or volunteers couldn't be leading prayers. Members of Congress do not need to have a chaplain to carry out their job duties, the guy in charge of the world's largest nuclear arsenal needs to be in a clear frame of mind and de-stress.

Re: Larry Ellison, I'm not sure meeting with a multi-billionaire is justification for using $3 million of taxpayer dollars to play a round of golf. They can't talk on the phone can't they? Or over lunch in the White House say? Order in some Mc'Donalds and save the cost of the security detail? If Larry is there surely it's for some personal benefit so maybe he could cover the cost out of his $billions?

The point about Ellison is that perhaps there's more to the story than just deciding to play golf for grins and giggles. Whether we want to be cynical and assume he's securing campaign funds for Clinton or working on other government business isn't the point so much as that the president is never truly off the clock. It's not like he just bails on his job to golf for 2 weeks while the world moves on.

If Trump were spending $3 million to play golf with the Koch brothers would you object to that?

No? Candidate Trump already has a Secret Service detail at all times so it doesn't really concern me where he decides to go. They're doing their job whether he's writing emails in his office or wakeboarding in Hawaii. President Trump would be working the most stressful job in the world and I would have no problem with him taking time to relax and de-stress. What would the Koch bros have to do with anything?

This whataboutism is really frustrating. I have said nothing whatsoever to suggest I'd have a different opinion of Trump taking a golf vacation to Obama taking one. I have no idea why you think I'd be against Trump taking vacation time as president as every president has done. I have no idea why you think I'd have a different opinion of billionaire president/candidate Trump golfing with billionaire Koch bros. than of millionaire president Obama golfing with billionaire Ellison.

 

[Danoff]

...the president is never truly off the clock. It's not like he just bails on his job to golf for 2 weeks.

...or even during the act of traveling itself.

 

[Tornado]

If having the ability to go do something while you're still on call is government waste rather than a perk, I shudder to think what having the lifetime of security protection detail is.

 

[Johnnypenso]

...or even during the act of traveling itself.

"So you see sir, if you keep your drive to the left, you can use the natural slope of the fairway to kick the ball back to the middle or the right side which makes for an ideal approach shot"

 

[Danoff]

"So you see sir, if you keep your drive to the left, you can use the natural slope of the fairway to kick the ball back to the middle or the right side which makes for an ideal approach shot"

More like, "I think Hillary can lock up these regions, but our strategy has her giving speeches in these the western portions of the state to boost support in these contested areas".

 

[Johnnypenso]

It's not the same umbrella of unnecessary spending. We can argue back and forth all day about how frugal he should be on vacation but the fact is the most powerful person in the world with the most stressful job in the world needs time to unwind and de-stress, and it's not unreasonable they'd want to leave DC to do so. Congress does not need to pay chaplains to lead them in prayer, seven members of Congress are ordained ministers, there is no reason one of them, another member of Congress, or volunteers couldn't be leading prayers. Members of Congress do not need to have a chaplain to carry out their job duties, the guy in charge of the world's largest nuclear arsenal needs to be in a clear frame of mind and de-stress.

So the standard for vacations is reasonable but the standard for prayer is unnecessary? Kind of my whole point.

This whataboutism is really frustrating. I have said nothing whatsoever to suggest I'd have a different opinion of Trump taking a golf vacation to Obama taking one. I have no idea why you think I'd be against Trump taking vacation time as president as every president has done. I have no idea why you think I'd have a different opinion of billionaire president/candidate Trump golfing with billionaire Koch bros. than of millionaire president Obama golfing with billionaire Ellison.

You know what else is frustrating. When you ask a question, it has an actual question mark behind it, and people leap to the conclusion that it's not a query for information as the question mark indicates, that I'm actually making an inference about what your answer might be or that I might know what your answer is? Do you also find that frustrating or should I know the answer to that already too?

 

[TenEightyOne]

So the standard for vacations is reasonable but the standard for prayer is unnecessary?

For vacations, yes, that's a provision for a single person who has securely protected and available for emergency duty (maybe of the most terrifying kind) 24/7, wherever they are. Whether or not one agrees with that being POTUS's lot... it is.

The other is about a personal choice (faith and prayer) being funded as a useless government activity.

When you ask a question, it has an actual question mark behind it, and people leap to the conclusion that it's not a query for information as the question mark indicates, that I'm actually making an inference about what your answer might be or that I might know what your answer is? Do you also find that frustrating or should I know the answer to that already too?

That's how questions work in debate, it's fair and reasonable to treat a question in all the ways you describe and seem so set against.

 

[Johnnypenso]

That's how questions work in debate, it's fair and reasonable to treat a question in all the ways you describe and seem so set against.

Laugh of the day right there But I'll keep it in mind in case you're serious.

 

[Joel]

So the standard for vacations is reasonable but the standard for prayer is unnecessary? Kind of my whole point.

Well yes, the vacations are necessary and the prayer is not. I won't rehash the point about stress relief, but no matter where the president travels it will be expensive when he has to take a private plane and have a couple hundred security/info staff come along (who would be paid to stay in DC as well). It's perhaps not strictly necessary for the president to do these specific types of travel, but as I said before the Secret Service would rather secure an island golf resort or the Bush/Reagan family ranch than secure a crowded city center or busy vacation spot, and the cost difference between a golf resort and hiking in a national park is minimal compared to travel/security.

The prayer does not need to be led by a paid chaplain. As I said, there's 7 ordained ministers in Congress already, and there's nothing that makes prayer led by a chaplain any more meaningful or important than personal prayer and reflection. Having a prayer or reflection led by someone in congress is not unreasonable, but paying someone to lead congress in prayer is unreasonable and unnecessary.

You know what else is frustrating. When you ask a question, it has an actual question mark behind it, and people leap to the conclusion that it's not a query for information as the question mark indicates, that I'm actually making an inference about what your answer might be or that I might know what your answer is? Do you also find that frustrating or should I know the answer to that already too?

I apologize if I misinterpreted you. I viewed it as a pretty loaded question and don't believe it was asked in good faith, because I said nothing to indicate that I would have a different opinion of Trump golfing, and the implication of asking that question is that I would have an issue with it because of my personal dislike for Trump.

If that wasn't your intention then I'm sorry, but I don't think it was unreasonable for me to see that as a loaded question.

 

[Danoff]

So the standard for vacations is reasonable but the standard for prayer is unnecessary? Kind of my whole point.

To jump on the train, yes. I've already explained in great detail why the particular implementation of this prayer is not only not beneficial, it's counterproductive when compared to a moment of silence, which would cost less and could accomplish more (no matter how many gods you believe in).

 

[A2K78]

I'm not sure how I can be wrong about a point I never made?

Well I never said you were totally wrong.

Anyhow L. Vance make an excellent point in this article:

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2016/04/laurence-m-vance/forget-religious-liberty-bills/

His point: Its not the job of the government to intervene for a particular cohort group but rather respect private property and freedom of association.

 

[huskeR32]

Sorry to resurrect a stalled thread, but I read something to day that seemed relevant.

When it comes to questions like this:

Keep on telling me how wrong it is for the government to pray on our dime and I'll keep telling you it's not only a non issue but also something we support.

James Madison has this to say:

The establishment of the chaplainship to Congress is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles.

Seeing as the man played a fairly large role in authoring both the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, I'd say this is some pretty valuable insight as to what the founders intended when they tried to mark out a separation between church and state.

 

[huskeR32]

I keep expecting this thread to come back to life with @Johnnypenso condemning Trump's golf habits the same way he did Obama's. More, even, seeing as Trump has already far outpaced Obama in terms of time spent on the links.

 

[Ledbetter]

Being elected president is not an opportunity to suck the treasury dry with your personal travel and lodging desires. Wong then, wrong now.

 

[polysmut]

Being elected president is not an opportunity to suck the treasury dry with your personal travel and lodging desires. Wong then, wrong now.

On the other hand. The expense involved in securing, moving & staffing a President is going to be there no matter what each President does with their time. If a lot of overtime & other expense is incurred through extra movement of the President, that's money being pumped from the Treasury back into other areas of the economy.

 

[UKMikey]

I keep expecting this thread to come back to life with @Johnnypenso condemning Trump's golf habits the same way he did Obama's. More, even, seeing as Trump has already far outpaced Obama in terms of time spent on the links.

I'm sure he has a discount at Trump resorts, presumably this could reduce the expense slightly? Unless of course the majority of this expense is due to his security detail which is a constant for all vacationing presidents.

Strange that it's no longer an issue though.

As far as comparing golf to prayers I'm not sure it's a case of relative expenditure rather than one of which is more effective. If prayer has absolutely no effect on how well the government does its job and the provision of security on vacations and golf trips does, then perhaps that money is better spent there than on hiring chaplains.

At least one poster on this thread characterised criticism of govt. expenditure on religion as an attack on religious people which limits the scope of the conversation and is ironically a pretty faithless argument. But just because other possibly (to my mind probably) more useful things like security details cost more doesn't mean the subject of the thread, the hire of congressional chaplains, shouldn't be seen as a waste of dough.

 

[Joel]

I keep expecting this thread to come back to life with @Johnnypenso condemning Trump's golf habits the same way he did Obama's. More, even, seeing as Trump has already far outpaced Obama in terms of time spent on the links.

Especially considering Obama did most of his golfing at air force bases ~20 miles from the White House while Trump's flying to Florida basically every other weekend.

I don't even care or think it's inherently bad that he goes to Florida for the weekends or golfs in his downtime. It just makes me so irrationally angry after conservative hacks (and Trump himself) filled their diapers about Obama the Golfer-in-Chief for 8 years. Now they're silent when Daddy flies to his Florida resort every weekend on the public's dime.

 

[Liquid]

Uh... is Congress still funding chaplains when it should be the Church of that particular flavour doing it instead?

 

[UKMikey]

Uh... is Congress still funding chaplains when it should be the Church of that particular flavour doing it instead?

I can't find anything to show that the situation's changed since 2011.

It's interesting to note that they use guest chaplains to represent other faiths at the service. Hope they have the occasional secular humanist as well LOL.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I keep expecting this thread to come back to life with @Johnnypenso condemning Trump's golf habits the same way he did Obama's. More, even, seeing as Trump has already far outpaced Obama in terms of time spent on the links.

You expect consistency? Why would it start now?

 

[huskeR32]

I don't even care or think it's inherently bad that he goes to Florida for the weekends or golfs in his downtime.

Same. It's good to know that the president, whoever they are, can get away and blow off steam. It's a stressful job..

It just makes me so irrationally angry after conservative hacks (and Trump himself) filled their diapers about Obama the Golfer-in-Chief for 8 years. Now they're silent when Daddy flies to his Florida resort every weekend on the public's dime.

Wasn't all that long ago, I would have gotten angry too. Now, I can only muster cynical amusement. It's impossible to be surprised any longer at the blatant double standard that Obama was (still is) held to.

--

You expect consistency? Why would it start now?

Oh, I'm definitely not holding my breath over here.

 

[DK]

Uh... is Congress still funding chaplains when it should be the Church of that particular flavour doing it instead?

The Republicans have a majority in both Houses, what do you expect?