Used cars, unique cars, player dealerships and more

[magburner]

I'm wondering how PD are going to implement the used car lot now that the GT5 will have online functionality. In the past you have been able to get any used car you want in game by carefully tracking the used cars that are available on certain days.

Is GT5 going to have an online used car lot that everyone can buy cars from, or even put up cars they no longer want for sale? If that is the case, some new and interesting possibilities may arise.

Firstly, Unique cars, there could be some cars that are classed as 'unique', ie, there will only ever be so many of them available ever. I know I would like the idea of having a car that few other people will own, what do you think?

Secondly, Some players could even setup a private dealership, where the buy, sell and trade cars to the highest bidder. Either for fun, or as a side poject to gain extra CR. Also, if it is possible to sell actual car parts, then the player could sell those too. You could see some players specilising in certain makes or models of cars, and selling them on to people that would be interested in purchasing them.

Lastly, If GT5 has comprehensive and detailed car setup features, you could also see players selling 'tuned' cars. Imagine buying a stock car, then adding custom parts to it, giving it a nice paint scheme, and then setting it up for races, drift competitions, or drag races etc.

A player could then sell that car for a given price, or auction it off to the highest bidder. There are all ready some very competent car tuners here at GTP, it wouldn't be much of a leap of the imagination to think that those tuners would progress on to selling actual tuned cars (if the option was available to them). In effect, the tuner would be creating a virtual 'tuning brand' like Mines, HKS or the like, and their cars and tuning skills could become known throughout GT5.

For all this to work, GT5 would have to have some form of in game economy, I don't know how easy or hard it would be to impliment, but it is not beyond the realms of imagination to do so, as many MMO's today either have actual economies, or thriving black markets. I like the idea of this, what do you think? 👍

 

[killanite]

i like the way you think.

 

[Zimmerd]

It's good thinking,
but we will see what we'll get!

 

[Boffin]

Just as long as there isn't real money involved. I REALLY like the idea with the limited car run. You could go car spotting and find a 1 of 25 gold plated caterham in an online race (or something). The problem that I see is that with people forever winning races, cars will be forever won. Therefore, Ferrari's won't be worth selling a few months after the game's release because everyone would have them anyway. Another thing to add to this is how you stop someone contacting a seller and asking them nicely to sell a Saleen S7 for 10,000cr? (assuming you determine the price yourself - abit like TDU) This would result in the player not really playing the game, more like racing, crashing, aquiring cars, being annoying online and then eventually throwing the game to one side. If the pricing system was like it is now with a predetermined price, it would work better, but the factor of a fully isolated GT economy driven by players would be diminished. The first car maket would be questionable. Would we have a computer generated market aswell as the player generated one? What if the only cars online in the starter's price bracket was a Matiz as all the supra's are taked for tuning?

It's a very interesting topic - and one that I would love to be part of GT5.

 

[Maffski]

Firstly, Unique cars, there could be some cars that are classed as 'unique', ie, there will only ever be so many of them available ever. I know I would like the idea of having a car that few other people will own, what do you think?

Hmm I can see your point and it would be great... but only if you had the car in question. For example say there is only 50 ferrari 250 GTO's in the game, sure this would be realistic, but you would end up in a similar position as they get in RPG's with ludicrously priced loot auctions etc. and as a consequence there would be a two tier player system. The haves and the have nots. If I bought the game and then couldn't access one of the cars thats on the disk I'd not be happy about that at all. The other thing is, say some of the players that own the rare cars stop playing, do they just stay unavailable? Good idea but would cause some huge controversy and bitching, I can imagine the flame threads that this could cause.

Lastly, If GT5 has comprehensive and detailed car setup features, you could also see players selling 'tuned' cars. Imagine buying a stock car, then adding custom parts to it, giving it a nice paint scheme, and then setting it up for races, drift competitions, or drag races etc.

A player could then sell that car for a given price, or auction it off to the highest bidder. There are all ready some very competent car tuners here at GTP, it wouldn't be much of a leap of the imagination to think that those tuners would progress on to selling actual tuned cars (if the option was available to them). In effect, the tuner would be creating a virtual 'tuning brand' like Mines, HKS or the like, and their cars and tuning skills could become known throughout GT5.

Thats a great idea, I'd gladly pay to get a car tuned by someone with a flair for the art, it can be so time consuming and real life gets in the way so the convenience factor would be very welcome.

For all this to work, GT5 would have to have some form of in game economy, I don't know how easy or hard it would be to impliment, but it is not beyond the realms of imagination to do so, as many MMO's today either have actual economies, or thriving black markets. I like the idea of this, what do you think? 👍

I think this might be a problem and end up in a situation where people are grinding to get cash to afford high value cars and when you have millions of players with massive sums of cash it leads to zimbabwe style hyper inflation which would only make the game even less accessible to new players. Not to mention there would be a flood of accounts with loads of credits getting sold on e-bay and when theres money involved it inevitably attracts the wrong kind of gamers. Don't get me wrong though, the idea is a good one, the problem is that player based economies just never seem to work properly in RPG's in my experience, the money sinks they work into the games are always inadequate so far as I've seen. Again, its a good idea in theory but almost impossible to implement without causing problems.


OT... I have to ask, your sig made me wonder. You into DnB? couple of very famous track titles there :- logical progression, above and beyond and I'm sure that 'REAL REBELS WALK ALONE' quote is in an old moving shadow track. If not... disregard

 

[big dani]

about used cars i think there will be familiar thing like in gt4 some 100 or 200 cars that where changed in a time interval.. but i think there will have online markt where you can buy and sell cars with other players.. like virtual advertisement for example i will sell my ford focus for 20,000cr and then u wait until someone player from around the globe to bought

 

[chrisbroughton]

The whole idea in my opinion would destroy the great progression we have seen in the older games.

After a few months you'll have people all over the game virtually giving away cars which otherwise would have been a great achievement to get. Why bother working your way up through the championships if you can get a friendly seller to give you a Formula GT from the word go?

 

[chepu]

Lastly, If GT5 has comprehensive and detailed car setup features, you could also see players selling 'tuned' cars. Imagine buying a stock car, then adding custom parts to it, giving it a nice paint scheme, and then setting it up for races, drift competitions, or drag races etc.

A player could then sell that car for a given price, or auction it off to the highest bidder. There are all ready some very competent car tuners here at GTP, it wouldn't be much of a leap of the imagination to think that those tuners would progress on to selling actual tuned cars (if the option was available to them). In effect, the tuner would be creating a virtual 'tuning brand' like Mines, HKS or the like, and their cars and tuning skills could become known throughout GT5.

I think thats awesome, i think thats one thing that PD should have in final GT5:tup:

 

[Boffin]

The whole idea in my opinion would destroy the great progression we have seen in the older games.

After a few months you'll have people all over the game virtually giving away cars which otherwise would have been a great achievement to get. Why bother working your way up through the championships if you can get a friendly seller to give you a Formula GT from the word go?

It's a point I raised and I fully agree. I think the only way to do it is sell the cars with the predetermined price tag (eg how you sell a car on an existing GT game).

 

[chepu]

It's a point I raised and I fully agree. I think the only way to do it is sell the cars with the predetermined price tag (eg how you sell a car on an existing GT game).

Or maybe Levels, if you are a Newb/Starter you cant Buy a Formula GT because you dont have the Level/Exp.

For Example, to Buy R Cars you should have passed beginner tournaments or something like that:idea:

 

[yossigab]

Firstly I thought it was a nice idea, but after some reading of the post in here and some thoughts I think is a bad idea.
I think this will make the GT-racing community to some sell/buy community rather than concentrating on driving/racing/leagues.
People will start invest their "PS3-time" in exchanging cars/parts more and more instead of racing & driving.

As people mentioned above, I don't want to buy a (full) game if I know that some of the cars might be owned by few amount of people (those who bought it first). And what If someone doesn't have an internet connection and not playing online? Doesn't he deserve to get all the cars exists on the disk (of course he needs to play/win/license etc.)?

However, I do think that PD could make some tournaments where people can won cars which are not exists on the disk, but after a while those cars should be available for all. This way, if one didn't participate in some tournament (due to not good skill, timing of competition wasn't good etc.) he still will be able to get it.

 

[yeti]

It's a point I raised and I fully agree. I think the only way to do it is sell the cars with the predetermined price tag (eg how you sell a car on an existing GT game).

Or the predetermined price being a minimum...

C.

 

[TeggD]

Probably a degradation value and what not. I dont think its complicated!

 

[Watevaman]

It'd be cool if PD made some unique cars. It'd replicate real life, like how not everyone owns an old 250 GTO, and would really bring out the collectors. It'd be fun to watch the price jump sky high.

 

[power091999]

My GUESS is that if damage is on all cars that used cars that have been repaired will be at a priemium, where as you might find some good buys for those who do not want to spend the money repairing the used cars.

Just a thought I suppose.

 

[chrisbroughton]

It's a point I raised and I fully agree.

Sorry, didn't have time to read all the posts!

 

[Demon Drone]

Also to add to this. I think it would be cool to buy say a turn key race car from a dealer in GT5 say like Ford or Porsche (please?) and be able to customize the graphics and such on it.

 

[magburner]

Just as long as there isn't real money involved. I REALLY like the idea with the limited car run. You could go car spotting and find a 1 of 25 gold plated caterham in an online race (or something).

I agree with you about the cars not costing real money, though there could become a point where a player sells a car that he purchased through a DLC. Of course PD could always restrict that like they do with some prize cars in GT4.

The problem that I see is that with people forever winning races, cars will be forever won. Therefore, Ferrari's won't be worth selling a few months after the game's release because everyone would have them anyway.

Well, I personally think that its high time that PD stopped giving away high-value cars for winning races!

Another thing to add to this is how you stop someone contacting a seller and asking them nicely to sell a Saleen S7 for 10,000cr? (assuming you determine the price yourself - abit like TDU) This would result in the player not really playing the game, more like racing, crashing, aquiring cars, being annoying online and then eventually throwing the game to one side.

You will always get some cheeky sod trying to get you to sell a car below price, but that's life. As for buying cars, racing them, crashing them and being annoying online, I think that would be a problem anyhow (if ther ewas full damage in the game). If you can get a '83 Sprinter Trueno for ~3,000 cr, then you are going to be able to cause mayhem no matter what.

If the pricing system was like it is now with a predetermined price, it would work better, but the factor of a fully isolated GT economy driven by players would be diminished. The first car maket would be questionable. Would we have a computer generated market aswell as the player generated one? What if the only cars online in the starter's price bracket was a Matiz as all the supra's are taked for tuning?

This is why I wondered if there was to be an online used car lot. Offline the player would have available to them the cars that are automatically generated, then they could browse the online used car lot for cars that they may not have access to, including tuned cars.

Hmm I can see your point and it would be great... but only if you had the car in question. For example say there is only 50 ferrari 250 GTO's in the game, sure this would be realistic, but you would end up in a similar position as they get in RPG's with ludicrously priced loot auctions etc. and as a consequence there would be a two tier player system. The haves and the have nots.

There will always be the haves and the have nots. I have never managed to get all the licence tests cars from previous Gran Turismo games, but it has never bothered me that much. Sure I would like them, but there are plenty of other cars to choose from.

Also, what about DLC? No doubt PD are going to sell cars through DLC. Would you be miffed if someone had a car that they brought from the store, and that you didnt have? Of course you could buy the car, but are you going to buy every car they offer, jsut because you haven't got it?

I think this might be a problem and end up in a situation where people are grinding to get cash to afford high value cars and when you have millions of players with massive sums of cash it leads to zimbabwe style hyper inflation which would only make the game even less accessible to new players.

Grinding for cash is as much a part of Gran Turismo as the licence tests themselves! (as mentioned earlier), I would like to see PD stop giving away high value cars as prizes, and simply give the players a set ammount of cash for winning a race (similar to how it is now in GT5).

I would REALLY like PD to evolve the system they used in Tourist Trophy (where you had to complete time trials to get better bikes) as a means of aquiring high value cars. I think that system had more merits than the tradition grind a race, sell a car etc, until you got what you need to buy the car you want.

Not to mention there would be a flood of accounts with loads of credits getting sold on e-bay and when theres money involved it inevitably attracts the wrong kind of gamers. Don't get me wrong though, the idea is a good one, the problem is that player based economies just never seem to work properly in RPG's in my experience, the money sinks they work into the games are always inadequate so far as I've seen. Again, its a good idea in theory but almost impossible to implement without causing problems.

They could do that even if this system was not in place. Though I agree that the chances of that happening would increase dramatically.

As for money sinks, there are plenty of chances within the scope of Gran Turismo to sap a player of cash. For instance, Car repairs, car maintainance, plenty of consumables, like parts, tyres, fuel race entry fees etc. If damage is included in all race modes, then you also have the prospect of writing off a high value car.

OT... I have to ask, your sig made me wonder. You into DnB? couple of very famous track titles there :- logical progression, above and beyond and I'm sure that 'REAL REBELS WALK ALONE' quote is in an old moving shadow track. If not... disregard

+1 👍 You are indeed correct, 100% correct infact!

Logical Progession is a brilliant (intelligent DnB) series by LTJ Bukem, featuring MC Conrad. There is also a link with GT5 there too. LTJ Bukem has (in the past), used some traks by Makoto, and as we all know, Makoto, has a track on GT5! 👍

The 'Real rebels walk alone' line was taken from an EZ Rollers track that came out many years ago on the Moving Shadows label, and a remixed version was featured in the game TOCA2 (as the menu music). 👍

 

[ZANELE]

In all the GT games I ussually like to TRY to buy all the cars availabe esspecially the rare ones but I hope this time around the rare cars aren't too difficult to find although its kind of fun waiting and searching the used car lot for cars you want to buy. The online auction would be a nice addition to find real work of art by other people with different tastes , if it is put into GT5.

 

[balang_479]

I like the idea... maybe not in GT5, but in the future i think we will defenately see this happening as far as the vitual tuning brands are concerned.

 

[RACECAR]

Finally, a thread that doesn't have a stupid question or a stupid idea. But I must ask a few questions though:

-You mentioned some cars being classified as "unique", but how would the others be classified?

-How would the worth of the used cars be determined?

-How would the car auctions function? Would it be something like Forza's auction house or something along the lines of say, Barrett-Jackson?


All in all, I like these ideas, especially being able to tune cars and sell them to everyone so I'm curious on how some of this stuff would work.

 

[matski]

I like the idea of the trading mentioned by Magburner, some good ideas - but I disagree with limited supply of cars...

PD should offer DLC cars for real $£€, the price should reflect exclusivity. Arbitary amounts but for example : $5 buys a set of 5 average 80's BMW's (nothing special but unique none the less), but if you want to buy a Ferrari Enzo FXX it will cost you $15 on its own. Price shouldn't necessarily = performance though - that would be unfair on younger players, but for instance a classic Mille Miglia car is unlikely to beat an Audi R10/R15, but the Mille Miglia car should be exclusive, therefore expensive -- then only the hardcore collectors would bother (casual gamers wouldn't see the value) which would make the Mille Miglia cars even less common!

No one is going to like the idea of spending extra money, but lets be realistic about this:
We all want more cars,
PD has to pay a room full of people to sit there and model them,
Licenses have to be paid to the car manufacturers,
If it's paid DLC, then you only have to pay for the ones you want,
PD could then keep modelling cars month after month getting an income from the game,
Could lead to endless choice!!!

I for one wouldn't mind, collecting the cars has always been one of the key aspects of the game that differentiated it from the rest (at least in the early days).

Question though:

If in online play, you haven't downloaded a car, and a competitor had, how would your PS3 be able to render it???

 

[RACECAR]

Question though:

If in online play, you haven't downloaded a car, and a competitor had, how would your PS3 be able to render it???

How would it not be able to? If its alreadly modeled by PD then there should be no problem.

 

[matski]

How would it not be able to? If its alreadly modeled by PD then there should be no problem.

I mean for paid DLC... if you haven't got it where will your PS3 get the info from to render the cars if someone else turns up with one, surely the on-line gameplay connection doesn't carry the info on how to draw the cars, just where they are and what they're doing? (Genuine question?)

.. just wondering how paid DLC could work, because I think it would be good if it did!

 

[RACECAR]

I mean for paid DLC... if you haven't got it where will your PS3 get the info from to render the cars if someone else turns up with one, surely the on-line gameplay connection doesn't carry the info on how to draw the cars, just where they are and what they're doing? (Genuine question?)

.. just wondering how paid DLC could work, because I think it would be good if it did!

Ok, I see what you mean now. In that case, you may not be able to race that person's car since it won't reconize it. Then again though, I basing that off what I've seen with Grid where you could not race a person using a car from the 8-Ball Content unless you had it too.

 

[-ultraflow-]

... Some players could even setup a private dealership, where the buy, sell and trade cars to the highest bidder...

...tuners would progress on to selling actual tuned cars (if the option was available to them). In effect, the tuner would be creating a virtual 'tuning brand' like Mines, HKS or the like, and their cars and tuning skills ...

I like these two parts!

 

[Vincent]

While I don't mind missing out on cars that I could obtain by completing specific in-game things, such as golding every license test--since I can obtain them if I'm willing to keep working on the tests--I do not like the idea of unique/exclusive cars. I strongly dislike the idea that I could miss out on a car (the actual model; this does not include the possibility of player "tuned" models based on already available models)--not because I don't have the skill, not because I don't have the $ or decided it wasn't worth the asking price, not because I haven't completed a certain number/percentage of the game--but because I was not in the right place at the right time. If it is desirable to keep some cars to a limited number of owners, I prefer matski's suggested methodology, for the reason that it would be limited according to player choice, rather than circumstance. I believe that it would be poor game design to prevent players from acquiring cars based on anything other than player choice.

On the other hand, player dealerships and player "tuned" cars seem like a good idea to me, but I'm a bit skeptical. The reason is that, other than the possibility of a custom paint job, there is no real way for a player to make a tuned vehicle, sell it, and then prevent other players from noting the tuned parts, and the particular tuning settings, and then copying them to make their own version, or placing the tuning information online so that other players can copy the settings at will.

As for trading/selling/auctioning cars/parts, if the wear and tear of parts (not crash damage, but degradation of parts) is simulated, this might make a used cars/parts player market interesting, as there would be parts of different quality that could be available for a lower price than a brand new part. Otherwise, I don't really see the point, because I don't see how players could "make" their own tuning kits, seeing as it would have to involve the provided parts already available in the game.

Addendum: I meant only than I wouldn't see the point to selling/trading used parts, but I could see how trading/selling used cars would be very interesting for a number of reasons.

 

[Seikenfreak]

Some good ideas in here. I think private dealerships/tuner shops could be executed in some way or another.

What I do see them doing (and who knows they may already have), cause I saw something about Home integration, is having your dealership in Home. You can walk around with your character and stuff and buy cars from other people. Maybe have a big Official GT dealership where they sell their DLC cars. I'd imagine at this stage they'd keep it simple like that.

 

[yeti]

I mean for paid DLC... if you haven't got it where will your PS3 get the info from to render the cars if someone else turns up with one, surely the on-line gameplay connection doesn't carry the info on how to draw the cars, just where they are and what they're doing? (Genuine question?)

.. just wondering how paid DLC could work, because I think it would be good if it did!

Could download the model from the other player/server - I remember this sort of thing happening with Maps out of games like Command & Conquer...

Of course that then left the map open to you... I expect that not to happen.

Or of course - updates could take the data down from the server - but they remain locked unless you actually buy the cars.

C.

 

[Maffski]

@ Mag

Yeah, I will concede that grinding has always been part of the game and there is no reason that should change. My main concern is that if a car is rare enough then the seller would be able to charge crazy money for it (and they would) and that would mean even more grinding just to be able to drive what you want to drive. I just think introducing rare items/cars in a player based economy is a recipe for lots of moaning. Overall though I do like the ideas you have come up with there Mag, it's just hard to see how they can introduce them without people getting the hump about it. PD could do with a dude like you in their ideas department! 👍

This thread did get me thinking though, and similar to what vincent just posted, it could be very interesting if no two cars were exactly alike in terms of power/torque etc, just like in real life. They could introduce slight discrepances in power output and for example a car that is listed by the manufacturer as having say 480bhp might occasionally randomly come with perhaps 485bhp or 490bhp, we're talking fractional differences, but enough to make it worth hunting down an exceptional example in the auctions or for sale listings. That way you can have the car you want, but can always be keeping an eye out for a supreme example if you catch my drift.👍


OT

+1 👍 You are indeed correct, 100% correct infact!

hehe yeah I thought that was a bit too much of a coincidence. Used to DJ with bukem, tayla and blame back in the day, I still dj and produce, but the atmospheric side of things is a bit dead these days... hit me up sometime and I'll hook you up with a mix n ting.