Very opinionated CSA thread!

[Tou2istTrophy]

Laptimes and leaderboards don't say what controller is being used, so kind of difficult to validate your claim. Though if what you say is correct (I'm not doubting you), then it doesn't really say much for the usefulness of counter steer assist as far as times go, if people using it, can't beat the guy that doesn't use it.

It says on twitter that he does, he also uses a wheel but you can tell when he is using the controller due to the throttle and brake inputs. He also uses chase cam when he is using DS4 and bumper when using a wheel.

It's just not needed as it is though.. Why are you defending it? If those points that I said are implemented, how does it negatively affect anyone?

 

[NoFinClue]

It's just not needed as it is though.. Why are you defending it? If those points that I said are implemented, how does it negatively affect anyone?

I'm not defending it per se, I'm just adding to the very opinionated thread.

I just find it odd that you advocate making it slower, which affects everyone that uses it, when at the top tier, it is already slower or at best, makes no difference.

 

[Sander 001]

As a former CSA user, I am against it now. Sure I can put down better laps with this assist, and others, but it is more fun (for me at least) to actually have some sort of feeling of what the car is doing instead of just pushing a button down and doing unrealistic things with the car.

Yes it is just a game, but with out assists it does feel more real than a lot of the other games out there so why take this "Sim" racer and turn it into an arcade racer?

You get better lap times with it on? The top players have it off. I do get more consistent lap times

 

[ynot]

Valid point. It's just my opinion that GT treads a line between SIM and arcade and I think CSA detracts from the spirit of the game.

At the end of the day its just a video game on a PlayStation. Enjoy it for what it is. I also like Farming Simulator 17 but it will never be farming. Just a cool game to drive around in all the cool farming equipment. I love Gran Turismo.

 

[Tou2istTrophy]

I'm not defending it per se, I'm just adding to the very opinionated thread.

I just find it odd that you advocate making it slower, which affects everyone that uses it, when at the top tier, it is already slower or at best, makes no difference.

It will serve its purpose, i.e. helping keep the car stable and on the track while promoting clean racing.

The problem I have is that there is no incentive to countersteer manually that will provide any advantage over CSA (the reason some of the top guys don't use it is because they are used to not using it as they have thousands of hours countersteering manually with throttle control).

There is a disadvantage to using AT (can you imagine if there was no incentives to use MT? Imagine if it were equally as fast?), there is a disadvantage to using TCS in terms of ultimate pace disregarding off launch. Why should there no no disadvantage to CSA? Countersteering manually is a risk you take and people using CSA should have some disadvantage (even a tenth per lap) for having a safety net.

In all other assists there is a level of skill you reach where the assist starts to slow you down. This doesn't exist for CSA.

Please just agree or disagree with my two points on the previous page. I literally see no reason why everyone wouldn't benefit from them??

The people that are using it will not be affected because it will still serve its purpose by helping them maintain clean racing and stability, just like a beginner who uses traction control or ASM or auto braking, steering etc will. Can you imagine if using auto braking was equally is fast as braking manually?? I wouldn't use it because I love braking manually and have done so my whole life, but I would be mad that there is no skill gap between people who haven't spent as much time practicing braking but have the same lap time as me because of the assist, with no incentive for them to take the assist off. Do you understand where I am coming from?

 

[Meggle]

At the end of the day its just a video game on a PlayStation. Enjoy it for what it is. I also like Farming Simulator 17 but it will never be farming. Just a cool game to drive around in all the cool farming equipment. I love Gran Turismo.

In FS17, Do you use a wheel or controller? Do you need any aids, or is it just H2O and sunlight?
PS i like both games as well.

 

[SirMontgomery]

Turned it off. Can't tell a drastic difference in atenza gr3 road car or tt gr3. Gr3 race car might be a different story. This is another case for grouping sport races by driving aid settings surely?

 

[Never2fast1]

You get better lap times with it on? The top players have it off. I do get more consistent lap times

I felt i did, could just be more consistent which made me feel faster.

 

[NoFinClue]

It will serve its purpose, i.e. helping keep the car stable and on the track while promoting clean racing.

The problem I have is that there is no incentive to countersteer manually that will provide any advantage over CSA (the reason some of the top guys don't use it is because they are used to not using it as they have thousands of hours countersteering manually with throttle control).

CSA has little effect compared to TCS, especially on weak settings. So turning TCS off to gain valuable exit speeds, gives more than enough opportunity to counter steer manually.

There is a disadvantage to using AT (can you imagine if there was no incentives to use MT? Imagine if it were equally as fast?), there is a disadvantage to using TCS in terms of ultimate pace disregarding off launch. Why should there no no disadvantage to CSA? Countersteering manually is a risk you take and people using CSA should have some disadvantage (even a tenth per lap) for having a safety net.

In all other assists there is a level of skill you reach where the assist starts to slow you down. This doesn't exist for CSA.

There is already a huge disadvantage to using counter steer, in that it dulls the turning response of a car, even on weak settings. This is probably the reason your super fast Japanese guy turns it off, as it makes turning more difficult.

Please just agree or disagree with my two points on the previous page. I literally see no reason why everyone wouldn't benefit from them??

No

The people that are using it will not be affected because it will still serve its purpose by helping them maintain clean racing and stability, just like a beginner who uses traction control or ASM or auto braking, steering etc will.

They will be in your plan, they will be made to drive slower, when they are already penalised with a slower responding car.

Do you understand where I am coming from?

Yes, you want to penalise CSA users for some malevolent reason, or have I got that wrong

 

[Tou2istTrophy]

CSA has little effect compared to TCS, especially on weak settings. So turning TCS off to gain valuable exit speeds, gives more than enough opportunity to counter steer manually.



There is already a huge disadvantage to using counter steer, in that it dulls the turning response of a car, even on weak settings. This is probably the reason your super fast Japanese guy turns it off, as it makes turning more difficult.



No



They will be in your plan, they will be made to drive slower, when they are already penalised with a slower responding car.


Yes, you want to penalise CSA users for some malevolent reason, or have I got that wrong

It makes turning more difficult? I would agree with that if it came from a fast player I respect with experience with and without CSA, but since there are a few of the fastest drivers I can think of who use CSA on strong, it's a bit hard to validate isn't it?

Do you really think a 6:24 Nordschleife Circuit experience is achievable with CSA strong if it makes it hard to turn as you say and provides a slower car? Do you really think L-SRB would use it in a manufactures race if it made him slower? Must be out of your mind.. You seem like you think you know what you are talking about so tell me..

In my master plan, they will not be slower, they will technically be faster because the assist will be helping those in need, but when they have reached a high enough skill level that they no longer need the assist and it starts to hold them back. At that point they will experience the freedom and advantage of being able to countersteer manually better than the software can at their own risk.

 

[Corsa]

Why do people throw out PC2 and AC as evidence that GTS is not a sim?

Because Assetto Corsa and Project Cars 2 have a progressive tire model that includes flex at the limit.

John Sabel @isrtv sums it up nicely...

Quote/
Between sounds that aren’t very descriptive, physics that make you feel on top of the track, and force feedback that isn’t giving your hands the entire story, your left depending on you eyes for where to brake, how much to brake, where to turn and where to get back on the gas. It’s more memory than reaction, which doesn’t bury the game, but doesn’t elevate it either.
/End Quote

 

[NoFinClue]

It makes turning more difficult? I would agree with that if it came from a fast player I respect with experience with and without CSA, but since there are a few of the fastest drivers I can think of who use CSA on strong, it's a bit hard to validate isn't it?

Do you really think a 6:24 Nordschleife Circuit experience is achievable with CSA strong if it makes it hard to turn as you say and provides a slower car? Do you really think L-SRB would use it in a manufactures race if it made him slower? Must be out of your mind.. You seem like you think you know what you are talking about so tell me..

In my master plan, they will not be slower, they will technically be faster because the assist will be helping those in need, but when they have reached a high enough skill level that they no longer need the assist and it starts to hold them back. At that point they will experience the freedom and advantage of being able to countersteer manually better than the software can at their own risk.

Sorry, difficult may not be the best description, I find cars are less nimble with CSA on strong. Sure the car is more stable, but I feel that changing direction is duller/slower..

Just try CSA for yourself, stick it on a car and you will be able to tell the effect it has on steering, especially on strong.

 

[TheGeologist]

What is CSA? What does it stand for?

 

[ynot]

In FS17, Do you use a wheel or controller? Do you need any aids, or is it just H2O and sunlight?
PS i like both games as well.

The wheel works but I use the controller so I dont have to set it up. I use helpers in the game and speed up the time. I guess that qualifies as aids.

 

[JayRS200]

Bit much all this chit chat about a driving aid. Just do what youre gonna do and forget about anyone else. Never occurs to me what aids people are or are not using.

 

[Tou2istTrophy]

Sorry, difficult may not be the best description, I find cars are less nimble with CSA on strong. Sure the car is more stable, but I feel that changing direction is duller/slower..

Just try CSA for yourself, stick it on a car and you will be able to tell the effect it has on steering, especially on strong.

Fair enough you should drive with what you are most comfortable with. But after extensive testing with csa strong and off I can say it provides no difference to ultimate achievable lap time. I do not want to brag, but I have to say that I have never found myself more than one second off P1 in sport mode leaderboards and I have to say that to give myself some credibility. I have gotten many competitive times against top drivers when I was using csa strong and off. For me to set a very strong time will take about 15-20 mins with csa strong and up to an hour or even more without csa. And in races your overall pace is generally faster as you are allowed to be more consistent and confident throttling out of corners early with csa, with no drawback.

I'm not against the aid, I like it, and I believe it should serve its purpose as helping provide an advantage to consistency and stability, but it needs to be at a cost (to ultimate pace, not what you personally "feel"). Right now there is no disadvantage to me or anyone else cutting time spent on lapping in more than half, and maintaining a more competitive race pace just by using the aid. I would much prefer if everyone was on the same boat that they had to put in the same amount of effort to achieve a competive time. Right now, unless you are an absolute monster behind the wheel like some guys, and have thousands of hours in GT (to whom csa will likely feel uncomfortable more than anything), it's likely that csa will give you and others around you an edge that is not necessary, but helps to stay competive.

So my conclusion from testing and observing the top guys is that it does not provide any disadvantage to your pace (unless you are a real alien who can prove me otherwise), but some people who have many hours in GT and other racing games or real life will find it uncomfortable (I personally am able to adapt very quickly).

So with that being said, these points cannot be argued against:

How to make everyone happy:

- Keep CSA in the game for those who need to keep their car stable and promote clean racing

- Make CSA slightly slower to ultimate achievable pace than countersteering manually

If you seriously don't understand how those two points will benefit everyone (unless you are still convinced csa is a disadvantage, which it is not as seen by the second paragraph in my previous post and I can give you many more examples), then please just do not reply to this post and save us both the hassle.

 

[NoFinClue]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, the title of the thread encourages it !

 

[Biggbaddwolf]

The aids are there, and if they help you, then I say use them!! I use the controller over a wheel because I was "blessed" with spina bifida, and have no use of my feet and legs, so I just have to do the best I can, but I also have nothing against people who don't want to use them, and if you don't that is fine, but let us that want to use them use them

 

[ynot]

Bit much all this chit chat about a driving aid. Just do what youre gonna do and forget about anyone else. Never occurs to me what aids people are or are not using.

Agree. When I run lobbies I always allow aids. I want everyone at all skill levels to be able to participate. I always say do what ever you have to do to be competitive. I race with some pretty fast drivers so the slow ones need something to even keep up. Its all good I think. I dont use it because it feels weird to me and I think slows you down.

 

[zzz_pt]

With Gr.3 and above, with stock setups, CSA definitely helps keeping a consistent pace. It doesn't make you slower or faster but more consistent.

I started using CSA because the throttle is not linear, which means we can't go out of corners as smoothly as we could. And here is where CSA works as a "work around".

 

[kilesa4568]

Oh, I love a good purist's opinion thread on assists.

If it cuts the practice time down for what looks like a perfect lap, where's the harm? I'm sure with enough laps, you'll eventually match your CSA time anyway.

Personally, I don't like it. If I make a mistake, I want to know about it. Not cover it up.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I have tried it on weak and strong and I hate it. I play with the DS4 and it slows me down, same with the TCS. I also don't like how tye CSA is making decisions that are different from what I would do. I also find my turns are wider.

I can't imagine how something that slows me down is also a way to go much faster.

You know what will help you go faster? The driving cones. It's such an underrated feature.

 

[Tenacious D]

Time for me to chime in GT:Sport is far from a simulator, Assetto Corsa and PCars1 are both superior in the physics department

I'll have to say that while I really dig AC and RaceRoom, PCARS1 was rather limp. The road cars were atrocious. I can't believe anyone putting PCARS on the same shelf as AC. Yes, it was a sim, a pretty good one, but I really think those diehard PC1 supporters are as biased as any GT fan. PCARS 2 may be a completely different story, but complains and budget choices steered me away for now.

When I race in AC, RR, Forza 6 and GT Sport, my laps are about the same. They all feel slightly different for their own reasons, but their differences are very small. I have the most fun in Sport and RaceRoom, mostly because the AC build of last year was still buggy for me, and building an offline race was an ordeal. Plus the bots were about as boring as those in Toca. I have yet to see anyone post a Sport replay where they said, "See? I can't do this in Assetto Corsa or iRenting."

Everyone has their faves, but GT Sport was the racer I was waiting for.