Volkswagen XL1... Winter vid post #121

[Eric.]

I can still imagine doing some crazy things regarding wheels going outside the body and installing...let's say...A BMW K1300 powerplant. Juuust to keep it German.

You're pretty obsessed with this idea.

 

[burgermaster]

It's like the cheap, eco-friendly, two seat, and roadlegal version of a le mans race car in my mind.

 

[homeforsummer]

See, there they go using the really misleading claims of 250+ miles per gallon.

Lets say you have a "hybrid" (or whatever you really want to consider these things) that can travel 100 miles on its battery. But you travel just to the point where the ICE burns a tiny bit of fuel. 1/100th of a gallon, perhaps.

You've travelled 100.01 miles or something, burned .001 gallons. 100.05/.001 = 100,010mpg! Z0MG INCREDIBLE!

And utterly worthless.

Cars like this need a new rating system so the hype can be realistic. List a full electric range that's maybe 70% of what it could do in a best case scenario, while also giving a typical mpg rating while the engine is in use (which I guess is either in a range-extending or battery-charging mode?).

It is realistic.

Seriously, sometimes I think people make comments like that because they don't want cars to be efficient as then you'd have to have some kind of respect for them and as a petrolhead that just wouldn't do, would it?

If a car can do X amount of miles on battery alone it's only right that it should be taken into account when working out fuel economy, because that battery power makes up a proportion of your journey.

People levelled the same complaint at the Volt, but if 90% of your journeys fall inside that battery only range then you are going to easily attain the claimed figures. Maybe even better them. Lets say you do 20 miles a day, five days a week, for four weeks in a Chevy Volt with a 40 mile EV range. On the fourth week your fifth journey is 80 miles, so you're using 40 miles of gas as well as your 40 in EV.

Let's say that those 40 miles are done at a (completely unrealistic) 20mpg. You use two gallons of gas.

You'll have done 460 miles over those four weeks and used two gallons of gas. That's 230mpg. And that was being conservative not using the full 40 mile EV range every day and using an unrealistically low 20mpg figure for the gas-only fuel consumption (early Volt owners are reporting about 35mpg on gasoline - not brilliant, but it'd swing MPG even further in their favour than my example).

Obviously your figures will vary wildly depending on the length of your journeys and if you do loads of long journeys then your MPG will fall below the claimed figures - but let's face it, with the VW it's still a massively efficient diesel that should do 100mpg (US) pretty easily.

The mileage is calculated no less fairly than any other car, and it's daft to imply that it's making EVs or hybrids look better than they should be. All it's really doing is showing how inefficient everything else is.

 

[ExigeEvan]

It is realistic.

The mileage is calculated no less fairly than any other car, and it's daft to imply that it's making EVs or hybrids look better than they should be. All it's really doing is showing how inefficient everything else is.

Purely in terms of motoring, you'd be entirely correct.

But flip that to environmental, as so many people see economy as a sign of how "green" a car is, and you have to take other things into account.

It is entirely fair to say that in the UK, and much of America, power is derived from fossil fuels. With one of the most efficient gas power stations being located in Barry, South Wales (what's occuring?) rated at 60% at source, you then have to take into account grid losses and losses at point of use. So you're not getting that electric range for "nothing" if you choose to look at it in a "green" sense.

 

[Inferno251]

That's a lot of mpg...

 

[Eric.]

It is realistic.

Seriously, sometimes I think people make comments like that because they don't want cars to be efficient as then you'd have to have some kind of respect for them and as a petrolhead that just wouldn't do, would it?

If a car can do X amount of miles on battery alone it's only right that it should be taken into account when working out fuel economy, because that battery power makes up a proportion of your journey.

People levelled the same complaint at the Volt, but if 90% of your journeys fall inside that battery only range then you are going to easily attain the claimed figures. Maybe even better them. Lets say you do 20 miles a day, five days a week, for four weeks in a Chevy Volt with a 40 mile EV range. On the fourth week your fifth journey is 80 miles, so you're using 40 miles of gas as well as your 40 in EV.

Let's say that those 40 miles are done at a (completely unrealistic) 20mpg. You use two gallons of gas.

You'll have done 460 miles over those four weeks and used two gallons of gas. That's 230mpg. And that was being conservative not using the full 40 mile EV range every day and using an unrealistically low 20mpg figure for the gas-only fuel consumption (early Volt owners are reporting about 35mpg on gasoline - not brilliant, but it'd swing MPG even further in their favour than my example).

Obviously your figures will vary wildly depending on the length of your journeys and if you do loads of long journeys then your MPG will fall below the claimed figures - but let's face it, with the VW it's still a massively efficient diesel that should do 100mpg (US) pretty easily.

The mileage is calculated no less fairly than any other car, and it's daft to imply that it's making EVs or hybrids look better than they should be. All it's really doing is showing how inefficient everything else is.

Which makes such a rating rather useless, right?


Let's say it does the 300mpg claimed.

Such a vehicle would hold less fuel than your typical car I'd think. Let's say 10 gallons (Imperial). Now what is the car's range?

Well, it goes 300 miles per gallon, right? So it has a range of around 3000 miles before needing fuel, right? No? Hmm.


I'm not able to find any specific EV range numbers or other info, but that "infinite" MPG it gets during its stint in EV mode completely skews the data. Its a lot more accurate to go by the fuel economy it gets while the ICE is in use, because that rating is actually usable once the battery is depleted.

 

[homeforsummer]

Purely in terms of motoring, you'd be entirely correct.

But flip that to environmental, as so many people see economy as a sign of how "green" a car is, and you have to take other things into account.

It is entirely fair to say that in the UK, and much of America, power is derived from fossil fuels. With one of the most efficient gas power stations being located in Barry, South Wales (what's occuring?) rated at 60% at source, you then have to take into account grid losses and losses at point of use. So you're not getting that electric range for "nothing" if you choose to look at it in a "green" sense.

I agree. But even when your electricity is 100% coal, EVs don't get CO2 figures of more than 100g/km, as far as I'm aware. On a typical UK mix I think the average EV works out around 40g/km.

If you start looking at point of source you also then have to bring up the well to wheels for anything else, which is when even a 100g/km, congestion charge exempt car will be looking at well-to-wheels figures of nearer 300g/km.

There are a lot of people who think that EVs are totally zero-emissions, and unless you're making your own power somehow they just aren't. However, I suspect very few motorists are aware how much CO2 the average passenger car produces, all things considered.

Which makes such a rating rather useless, right?

No, not really. Every car does the same tests, every car's fuel figures vary depending on how you drive it.

Let's say it does the 300mpg claimed.

Such a vehicle would hold less fuel than your typical car I'd think. Let's say 10 gallons (Imperial). Now what is the car's range?

Well, it goes 300 miles per gallon, right? So it has a range of around 3000 miles before needing fuel, right? No? Hmm.

People aren't that dumb. It's fairly obvious that you add together the EV range and the diesel range to come up with a total figure. You don't just multiply out the MPG figures.

And theoretically, yes.

Though you've taken the imperial MPG rather than the US MPG. Say it does 260mpg US. If your journeys are proportional to how they tested the car, then you'd be able to quite happily do thousands of miles between fills (or whatever - the VW has a smaller tank than you suggest, around 10 litres which is about 2.6 US gallons, not a lot for a regular car but plenty for a 100mpg minimum car). Given that plenty of people manage to do 10,000+ miles per year in pure EVs, I can't see why many people wouldn't manage high mileages in the EV mode of a hybrid.

Of course, as Chevrolet keep telling us, you've still then got the advantage of being able to carry on once you're out of battery power.

I'm not able to find any specific EV range numbers or other info, but that "infinite" MPG it gets during its stint in EV mode completely skews the data. Its a lot more accurate to go by the fuel economy it gets while the ICE is in use, because that rating is actually usable once the battery is depleted.

It doesn't skew the data. It's part of the data. Assuming you remember to plug in your car on a night, you're going to have that EV range every time you start up in the morning, so it's going to factor into your mileage every single day.

The scenario you're trying to push literally only takes account of a driver who does high mileages every single day and always uses the fuel as well as the EV mode. This sort of data would supply inconsistent data with the regular testing methods.

Government fuel consumption testing involves doing the same thing to every car to get a fair comparison. You start a car from cold on a rig, do some driving, and stop it (to break it down to basics). That a car like the Volt or XL1 has a significant EV proportion of the journey isn't some sort of misrepresentation, it's simply how they work.

And even so, if you solely consider the diesel power of this VW, it's still a 100mpg+ car.

 

[Eric.]

Why is it dumb to think that you can calculate a vehicle's range by its fuel economy? If I want to make a roadtrip, I like to have an idea how far I'm gonna be able to go before I need to look for fuel.


In your "regular testing methods" scenario, what if it never runs out of EV? Would it get a fuel economy rating of Infinity because it never has to use fuel?


Stop assuming I hate this thing. You justify everything about every hybrid/EV car that gets posted and questioned on here. A ~100mpg rating PLUS xxx mile EV range is the accurate way to describe one of these.

300mpg = Marketing. That is "Three hundred miles before you burn your first gallon of fuel, and around 100mpg after that". 300mpg means "Three hundred miles per gallon of fuel consumed", and you have to agree that those are very different scenarios in this case.

 

[Azuremen]

HFS, you are grasping at straws. Using the EV ranges for the calculations for MPG is just, well, misleading. And consumers are that stupid.

 

[blaaah]

Why is it dumb to think that you can calculate a vehicle's range by its fuel economy? If I want to make a roadtrip, I like to have an idea how far I'm gonna be able to go before I need to look for fuel.


In your "regular testing methods" scenario, what if it never runs out of EV? Would it get a fuel economy rating of Infinity because it never has to use fuel?


Stop assuming I hate this thing. You justify everything about every hybrid/EV car that gets posted and questioned on here. A ~100mpg rating PLUS xxx mile EV range is the accurate way to describe one of these.

300mpg = Marketing. That is "Three hundred miles before you burn your first gallon of fuel, and around 100mpg after that". 300mpg means "Three hundred miles per gallon of fuel consumed", and you have to agree that those are very different scenarios in this case.

EV figures factor in the cost of electricity, so no they would not get an infinite mpg figure, even if they didn't use any fuel. The mpg figure is an "equivalent of". But I wonder how that will work out with changing fuel and electricity prices.

 

[nick09]

Infinity would never happen. Batteries always have a limit on how much electricity they can store. That electricity would come from nuclear plants, coal, other fossil fuels, and other alternative resources. Even if we were to convert all of the cars to electricity we will still cause pollution from the power plants. We are still quite a far away from long highway figures with electricity alone.

 

[Eric.]

Infinity would never happen. Batteries always have a limit on how much electricity they can store. That electricity would come from nuclear plants, coal, other fossil fuels, and other alternative resources. Even if we were to convert all of the cars to electricity we will still cause pollution from the power plants. We are still quite a far away from long highway figures with electricity alone.

MPG = Miles Per Gallon.

If miles > 0, and gallons of fuel consumed = 0, you have an undefined (i.e. infinite) value.

It. Isn't. Accurate.

 

[nick09]

Would it not be possible to factor the electricity as miles and then add that to the MPG ratings? You are still consuming resources.

 

[RTSolvalou]

What do you do with the item pictured in the first post?

 

[Eric.]

Would it not be possible to factor the electricity as miles and then add that to the MPG ratings? You are still consuming resources.

If by that you mean to advertise a full EV range and then an average MPG for when the engine is being used, yes. I think that's actually the best way to list this information.

Instead of throwing around the 300mpg figure, they could more accurately use the full range of the vehicle (the full distance it can go with a fully charged battery and full tank of fuel).

 

[homeforsummer]

Apologies for the long post!

Why is it dumb to think that you can calculate a vehicle's range by its fuel economy? If I want to make a roadtrip, I like to have an idea how far I'm gonna be able to go before I need to look for fuel.

Then I'm sure you're intelligent enough to be able to add your EV range to your diesel range. As you've demonstrated, it can be worked out fairly simply.

But as I've said, this still only applies to longer trips. If you commute every day, then the EV range plays a big part, and to me that justifies giving a combined figure.

In your "regular testing methods" scenario, what if it never runs out of EV? Would it get a fuel economy rating of Infinity because it never has to use fuel?

If you only ever drive to the shops and back then yes, you could realistically never have to use the diesel engine. But in "regular testing" they would use the engine so no, they wouldn't get "infinite" mpg.

Incidentally, even full EVs don't get "infinite" mpg because CAFE and others do some voodoo magic to translate electricity useage into an MPG figure for comparison.

You justify everything about every hybrid/EV car that gets posted and questioned on here.

I do, generally because they get quite a kicking here (understandable, since it's a site generally made up of performance car enthusiasts who are usually sceptical of hybrids and EVs - though in my opinion unduly so a lot of the time) so since I happen to spend a lot of my time writing about them, it's only fair I give my input.

It's sticking to what you know. I don't know much about pickup trucks, for example, so I tend to stay away from those threads.

And I hope it's clear enough that I'm not entirely one-sided about them either. If someone makes a valid point then I'll agree with it.

A ~100mpg rating PLUS xxx mile EV range is the accurate way to describe one of these.

It's one way to do it, but for people who'll barely use the diesel engine, then that becomes inaccurate.

I suppose what I'm getting at is that there's more than one way to calculate it's consumption, but equally that means it's wrong to say that a combination method isn't realistic. Because it is.

300mpg = Marketing. That is "Three hundred miles before you burn your first gallon of fuel, and around 100mpg after that". 300mpg means "Three hundred miles per gallon of fuel consumed", and you have to agree that those are very different scenarios in this case.

They are, I agree. But 300mpg is still a realistic calculation over a tank. If you reset your trip every time you fill up and then work out the fuel consumption, then you could feasibly come out with a 300mpg result.

If you can come up with a tank figure of 300mpg (and you're still using the imperial gallons figure, which if you're not doing the calculations in your head to translate it to US gallons, probably looks more unrealistic than it actually is - you need to subtract about 13% from that) then I see no reason for advertising it any other way.

Chevy originally claimed 230mpg for the Volt, and then revised their estimate (I can't remember what to) because people kicked up a stink. The press reviewing the car when it was released said they were getting 50mpg, but then after thrashing the car all day and spending most of their time with the range-extending engine running, this was naturally going to be the case.

When actual owners gave their reports, they've reported significantly more than 50mpg. 135mpg in fact from one owner. They managed 498 miles from 3.7 gallons. That particular owner's previous car was a Prius, in which he was averaging 47mpg. If that doesn't demonstrate the effect of the EV mode on overall consumption then I'm not sure what does.

It's not difficult to understand. The EV range means much longer distances between fills unless you regularly drive long distances.

That, and even a short EV-only range such as the 40-ish miles of a Volt, has a disproportionate effect on fuel economy, since a greater proportion of the average driver's journeys are short rather than long.

HFS, you are grasping at straws.

Which parts of my explanations are incorrect?

Using the EV ranges for the calculations for MPG is just, well, misleading.

Not really. The people in the market to buy cars like this tend to be fairly well educated and tend to be buying into a technology they both understand and want to learn more about.

If you were buying a car yourself, you'd do the research, right? I think we all would. Performance car enthusiasts tend to want to know quite a lot about their chosen subject.

Why assume then that buyers of specialist cars like the XL1 will be any different?

And consumers are that stupid.

Generally I'd agree with this, though as above - it's a specialist car, and the specialist consumers who buy it will likely fully understand any MPG figures.

Instead of throwing around the 300mpg figure, they could more accurately use the full range of the vehicle (the full distance it can go with a fully charged battery and full tank of fuel).

Just for you Eric, I'll do some sums for the XL1 👍

Here are the numbers I used before for my example with the Volt:

20 miles/day (100 miles/week, 400 miles/4 weeks)
Additional 60 miles on day 5 of the 4th week.
Total: 460 miles.

EV range of XL1: 20 miles approx.
Diesel mileage on day 5, week 4: 60 @80mpg (let's be harsh on it and assume it can't do 100mpg on diesel alone).

60 miles @ 80mpg = 0.75 gallons used.

Total: 460 miles on 0.75 gallons = 613.3 mpg

Okay, so that's pretty impressive. Let's give the car a bit of a kicking now. Same range on EV mode, but now doing 40 miles per day (using 20 miles of diesel as well as 20 miles EV) with the same 80 miles total on week 4, day 5. Same 80mpg.

That's 400 miles on EV, 440 miles on diesel. 840 miles total.

440 miles @ 80mpg = 5.5 gallons.

Total: 840 miles on 5.5 gallons = 153mpg

So - not as close to the 260mpg US that VW claim, but still not bad, I'm sure you'll agree. And I was being conservative with the diesel fuel consumption. VW reckon 100mpg, and since you'll likely only be using diesel at the higher speeds where things like aerodynamics and diesel efficiency matter, I expect 100mpg isn't too far from possible. For the record, the two overall figures above would be 766mpg for the 460 mile month and 190mpg for the 840 mile month.

If I were to estimate, to get Volkswagen's claimed 260mpg you'd be looking at a daily commute of just under 25 miles. Doing all my calculations with 20 miles EV and 5 miles diesel works out at 270mpg over the four weeks.

The calculations above are also good at demonstrating the disproportionate effect an EV mode has on MPG. The 49% decrease in mileage between 860 and 440 miles in a month results in a 300% increase in MPG - so people with shorter commutes really would benefit.

The more you drive, the less of a benefit the EV range is. This matters more in something like the Chevy Volt where you'd be better off with a diesel if you do high mileage, but in the XL1 you're already driving the most efficient internal combustion car on the road so you could just sit back and enjoy the 100mpg+ you'd be getting even if you never used the EV range.

As a final note on the XL1's overall range: It has a roughly 20 mile EV range, and a 2.6 gallon tank. At 100mpg its overall range (on one full tank, note) would be 20 miles + 260 miles = 280 miles.

 

[Azuremen]

Which parts of my explanations are incorrect?

Because you aren't burning fuel while in EV mode, thus MPG makes zero outside of marketing purposes. The reality is, if they wanted to produce accurate numbers, they'd separate EV and petrol modes, and rate the EV in kW per mile while maintaining MPG for when it is using the combustion engine.

Not really. The people in the market to buy cars like this tend to be fairly well educated and tend to be buying into a technology they both understand and want to learn more about.

If you were buying a car yourself, you'd do the research, right? I think we all would. Performance car enthusiasts tend to want to know quite a lot about their chosen subject.

Why assume then that buyers of specialist cars like the XL1 will be any different?

Because, like people that purchase the Prius, they really just see some figures, hear hybrid and green, and want to buy it. The average consumer is an idiot. And they will market this to the masses because that is where the money is.

Generally I'd agree with this, though as above - it's a specialist car, and the specialist consumers who buy it will likely fully understand any MPG figures.

Again, I intensely doubt the majority of buyers will be enthusiasts at all. They will be the Prius and Volt consumers, or people that were considering those.

 

[homeforsummer]

You'll have been posting whilst I've been editing so I'd urge you to have a quick look at my figures above and let me know what you think 👍

Because you aren't burning fuel while in EV mode, thus MPG makes zero outside of marketing purposes. The reality is, if they wanted to produce accurate numbers, they'd separate EV and petrol modes, and rate the EV in kW per mile while maintaining MPG for when it is using the combustion engine.

Separating them out does make sense I agree, but combining them (apologies for the incoming double-negative) doesn't not make sense, since, as I mentioned earlier, when you reset your trip meter after every fill, the number you'll see is a combined number of both your EV driving and your diesel driving - so when you work out your MPG (as above) you'll get a combined figure and not a diesel-only figure or diesel/EV split.

That, and I presume the in-car MPG reader will give you combined estimates too.

Because, like people that purchase the Prius, they really just see some figures, hear hybrid and green, and want to buy it. The average consumer is an idiot. And they will market this to the masses because that is where the money is.

Again, I intensely doubt the majority of buyers will be enthusiasts at all. They will be the Prius and Volt consumers, or people that were considering those.

There are a lot of people out there buying Priuses who are in it for the image.

The XL1? I'm not so sure. It's got a projected £30k price tag and its looks are very much an acquired taste as you pointed out in your post on the previous page - I suspect it'll be bought by people who are genuinely interested in the technology and its capabilities. It's not a mass market product. It's more comparable to a specialist sports car.

 

[Jim Prower]

In other words, It's more what Burt Rutan would drive. If he drives.

 

[homeforsummer]

In other words, It's more what Burt Rutan would drive. If he drives.

I had to google him (turns out I'd heard of his projects but not the name behind him) but yes, I think it'd be right up his street

Incidentally, the original 1-Litre concept was signed off under Ferdinand Piech, who also signed off the Veyron. It seems he was open to exploring both ends of the motoring spectrum. I think he was actually given the original concept as a retirement present.

 

[YSSMAN]

Oh hey, let's look at the EPA sticker from the Volt:

If the XL1 is sold in the United States (apparently, they want to), they'll rate it the same way. As I recall, there really is not a standardized way to measure the performance of EV and plug-in-hybrid cars, I believe the EPA was one of the first to go with a particular rating. I have no idea how they're measuring things in Europe and Asia, but could it be any different?

 

[Eric.]

Perfect. All the info you need to know.

The only thing unknown is whether the VW drives like a usual hybrid once the battery is down to a certain point, or any other time (i.e., where one motor is assisting the other, like the electric helping at low speed when it needs the maximum combined power, or something).

And if it does that very much, the average real-world MPG will be better than that sticker reflects.

 

[YSSMAN]

It sounds like the XL1 uses a system similar to the Toyota HSD or GM Two-Mode, where the electric motor can power the car up to a certain speed, and then be driven by the diesel engine. My guess is that the MPG figures will be fairly traditional, like the Prius. How that ends up working out to 230 MPG, I'm not sure.

 

[blaaah]

As well as the engine/battery system being used on the new Lupo it will also be used in the Golf by 2020, with uprated power density. With expected CO2 of 75g/km.
VW have also said ( in Autocar) they will have to make the new Golf very light weight, with perhaps composite bonnet and roof etc. And also removal of heavy sound deadening with car acoustics/sound cancelling sorted using the cars on-board audio system.

 

[ShaneG]

I'd love to see a track full of these things going at it. 👍

If they can stick two more seats in it, I'd take one.

 

[homeforsummer]

How that ends up working out to 230 MPG, I'm not sure.

Come on Brad, did you not have a quick look at the sums on the last page? It's pretty easy to extrapolate some combined figures from the car.

Worth checking the small print on the EPA labels too. The Volt's mileage is calculated at 15k miles per year which is probably about right for a car of its size. As a smaller, slower vehicle (with a small fuel tank) the VW is likely to be used on shorter trips. Having a quick look at the figures I used before to get a 270mpg figure, you'd average about 6,700 miles per year.

The 150-odd mpg calculation (using a slightly pessimistic 80mpg diesel figure) I did would average out to just over 10,000 miles per year. Or 66 gallons, roughly, or at an average $3.40 a gallon for diesel, a fuel bill of around $224 per year in diesel and whatever else in electricity. Obviously that's all based on the commuting figures I used. If you only ever did big road trips then you could pretty much ignore the EV range and work something out using the 100mpg diesel engine.

As for how the engine works I presume it's a mid point between Prius and Volt. The diesel/electric drivetrain seems to be more like the HSD in the Prius in the way it works (i.e. it's not a range extending engine as in the Volt), but unlike the Prius I get the impression that you can do freeway speeds on EV alone (as in the Volt sub-70mph), and it has an EV range longer than the 12 miles ish of the upcoming plug-in Prius.

 

[RocZX]

VW XL1 prototype

More pics- http://www.worldcarfans.com/112031842511/volkswagen-xl1-prototype-caught-completely-undisguised

 

[1241Penguin]

Lookin' good! Nice to see that they've got rid of those hideous fenders that covered up the back wheels.

 

[Zenith]

Those rear wheels are set really deep in their wells.

 

[m8h3r]

VW XL1 prototype

More pics- http://www.worldcarfans.com/112031842511/volkswagen-xl1-prototype-caught-completely-undisguised

👍 +1 for finding the original thread instead of starting a new one.

Those rear wheels are set really deep in their wells.

Why have they done that, I think it's looks pretty stupid.