Volkswagen XL1... Winter vid post #121

[homeforsummer]

Lookin' good! Nice to see that they've got rid of those hideous fenders that covered up the back wheels.

Those rear wheels are set really deep in their wells.

Why have they done that, I think it's looks pretty stupid.

I think if you put two and two together you'll see that those "hideous" fenders are still going to be used. It explains the set-in rear wheels, and if you look closely at the photos you'll see the rear arch has mounting points for a fender cover.

The whole point of the shape is aerodynamics and those covers contribute significantly to low drag.

Interesting that they're still testing it though. Does seem to suggest production, and VW isn't best known for going through with its concepts all the way to production.

 

[RocZX]

Interesting that they're still testing it though. Does seem to suggest production, and VW isn't best known for going through with its concepts all the way to production.

On the article where the pics are from it said it was confirmed for production and will on the market in 2013 for a limited production run.

 

[homeforsummer]

On the article where the pics are from it said it was confirmed for production and will on the market in 2013 for a limited production run.

Nice, thanks. I expect it won't be cheap though, unfortunately.

 

[sumbrownkid]

I fully expect some of the buyers of this car to be holier than thou about it.

 

[homeforsummer]

I fully expect some of the buyers of this car to be holier than thou about it.

And people who are disparaging about the attitudes of others are better how exactly?...

I know! Let's all make cretinous generalisations about the owners of a car that isn't even out yet!

 

[Sureboss]

A Beetle owner would say that!

 

[homeforsummer]

a beetle owner would say that!

Beetles have been out long enough to make cretinous generalisations perfectly valid...

 

[sumbrownkid]

And people who are disparaging about the attitudes of others are better how exactly?...

I know! Let's all make cretinous generalisations about the owners of a car that isn't even out yet!

Over react much? I said some, not all. And there is some truth about people being snobby when they have a "green" vehicle. Does that make all drivers snobby? No.

Just look at the Prius. I remember a time when I saw some people being smug because they look like they are being progressive.

But thanks for using cretinous though. Expanding my vocab is always nice.👍

 

[homeforsummer]

Why bring it up at all if you weren't simply generalising? What exactly does it add to the discussion?

I do wonder how many of these generalisations are actually based on having met "smug" Prius drivers or whatever. I know quite a few and funnily enough it's never come across like that. But then strangely I also know plenty of pickup owners who don't fancy their sisters either, so maybe I just suck at the stereotyping thing.

 

[sumbrownkid]

You said I was generalizing. Not me. I'm just saying there are some out there who like the image of being green than actually being green. What does it add to the discussion?

Many things. How will people flock to it? Will it be a social phenom? Will it follow the Prius's footsteps and be the darling child of the green motorist?

Not hating on the car nor the people that will drive. In fact I for one would like VW to sell this car stateside. It can be an incredible city car, barring a bus running you over.

As for the car itself, I wonder if it's emission rating will get its own category. A one liter engine shouldn't spew much more than a lawn mower.

 

[homeforsummer]

You said I was generalizing. Not me.

"generalising/generalizing"

Infer general principles from: "it is tempting to generalize from these conclusions".
Make general or broad statements: "it is not easy to generalize about the poor"

I fully expect some of the buyers of this car to be holier than thou about it.

Err... yeah.

I'm just saying there are some out there who like the image of being green than actually being green.

But why is that relevant? I don't appear in a thread about the BMW M3 and say "I fully expect some of the buyers of this car to be douchebags". Regardless of whether it's the case or not, it adds absolutely zilch to the discussion.

What does it add to the discussion?

Many things. How will people flock to it? Will it be a social phenom? Will it follow the Prius's footsteps and be the darling child of the green motorist?

Not really. You simply made a statement. You didn't invite discussion about the car's possible owners, you just said some of them would be "holier than thou". That's called generalising.

As for the car itself, I wonder if it's emission rating will get its own category. A one liter engine should spew much more than a lawn mower.

It'll get whatever emission rating it gets from the emissions it puts out in the region it's being tested.

 

[sumbrownkid]

No, me saying every driver of this VW being holier than though is a generalization. I only said some. All Americans are fat is a generalization. Some Americans are fat is not. I think me writing "fully expect" made it come off wrong.

About BMWs, I'm pretty sure I did say M3 drivers ruined the M3 experience in jest. But that's just a running gag many members heard about.

But I think you and I detracted enough from this side argument.

I think this car would look good in naked carbon fiber, but I must ask, how minimum will the safety features be? I can't imagine this cat having much beyond belts and a front bag.

 

[Pupik]

No, me saying every driver of this VW being holier than though is a generalization. I only said some. All Americans are fat is a generalization. Some Americans are fat is not.

So why bother making a negative generalization, then?

If there's one thing this world needs, it's more stereotypes and unfounded nonsense to divide ourselves upon.

 

[sumbrownkid]

But I'm not being negative about it. All I did was say it. You guys are taking it negatively. If I offend anyone then I'm sorry, but what I said is in no way a horrible stereotype that should hurt people in the real world.

 

[Keef]

But I'm not being negative about it. All I did was say it. You guys are taking it negatively. If I offend anyone then I'm sorry, but what I said is in no way a horrible stereotype that should hurt people in the real world.

I feel you bro. The amount of stereotypes and generalizations in the world is irrelevant - what we need is fewer people who get all in a huff about them.

As for the car...

 

[YSSMAN]

I still like the idea of this car. Few overall compromises with a very simplistic design. I'd imagine that it is a fair bit of fun to drive, but you know, its hard to say. The stuff I was reading on the car earlier this morning suggested that it would take the better part of 30 seconds to hit 60 MPH, and top out somewhere near 75 MPH. That seems very strange, particularly when it would seem like the car would get its best fuel economy at highway speeds.

 

[ExigeEvan]

I still like the idea of this car. Few overall compromises with a very simplistic design. I'd imagine that it is a fair bit of fun to drive, but you know, its hard to say. The stuff I was reading on the car earlier this morning suggested that it would take the better part of 30 seconds to hit 60 MPH, and top out somewhere near 75 MPH. That seems very strange, particularly when it would seem like the car would get its best fuel economy at highway speeds.

Strange because the car is trying to meet the European efficiency test.

Which means it will be geared towards this test no matter how impractical it makes the vehicle in every day driving. If it makes even 2l/100km in real-road conditions I'd be surprised.

 

[homeforsummer]

Strange because the car is trying to meet the European efficiency test.

Which means it will be geared towards this test no matter how impractical it makes the vehicle in every day driving. If it makes even 2l/100km in real-road conditions I'd be surprised.

The Euro tests are odd. I'm beginning to prefer the EPA's system, even though that's flawed too.

It's quite easy to tell which cars aren't geared towards the EU tests - it's the ones that hit their official figures. My Panda 100HP does, my old MX-5 thrashed its fuel figures (based on the old urban/56mph/75mph tests), and the Mitsubishi ASX diesel that I've been testing for the last week or so hit its figures pretty easily too.

I found it very difficult getting the Lexus RX I had on test to hit its numbers (though it managed to hit its EPA figures), but it got close to the official urban figures...

The whole idea of the EU system isn't to give accurate MPG figures really, it's to provide a basis for comparison. Or that's the theory, but the ease by which some cars hit their numbers and the difficulty of others to do so kinda suggests it's not even useful for comparison!

 

[Pupik]

I feel you bro. The amount of stereotypes and generalizations in the world is irrelevant - what we need is fewer people who get all in a huff about them.

It's not necessarily that, but sometimes I get the idea that every conversation turns into two ignorant people flailing rubber chickens at each other.

 

[Tornado]

Strange because the car is trying to meet the European efficiency test.

Which means it will be geared towards this test no matter how impractical it makes the vehicle in every day driving. If it makes even 2l/100km in real-road conditions I'd be surprised.

It happens with the EPA tests too. See: Anything GM replaced the old non-DI 3.6L V6 with the 3.0L DI one.

 

[sumbrownkid]

It's not necessarily that, but sometimes I get the idea that every conversation turns into two ignorant people flailing rubber chickens at each other.

I'd sure love to hit someone with rubber chicken though.

Don't get me wrong, I don't stereotype people very wildly. But after witnessing several owners of hybrids and other efficient car being "smug" about how it's the right thing and blah blah blah. That's why I said some people who buy this might do the same.

I still adore this little thing though. Paint this matte black and put on black wheels...Batman's Eco justice?

 

[ExigeEvan]

The Euro tests are odd. I'm beginning to prefer the EPA's system, even though that's flawed too.

It's quite easy to tell which cars aren't geared towards the EU tests - it's the ones that hit their official figures. My Panda 100HP does, my old MX-5 thrashed its fuel figures (based on the old urban/56mph/75mph tests), and the Mitsubishi ASX diesel that I've been testing for the last week or so hit its figures pretty easily too.

I found it very difficult getting the Lexus RX I had on test to hit its numbers (though it managed to hit its EPA figures), but it got close to the official urban figures...

The whole idea of the EU system isn't to give accurate MPG figures really, it's to provide a basis for comparison. Or that's the theory, but the ease by which some cars hit their numbers and the difficulty of others to do so kinda suggests it's not even useful for comparison!

I believe the Fiat 500 Twin Air is the best example.

Fiat 500 TwinAir 0.9 TwinAir Claimed68.9 mpg Real Average48.9 mpg Real Range41.1–54.1 mpg

Nearly 70 down to sub 50 and nearly 40 in some cases!

It happens with the EPA tests too. See: Anything GM replaced the old non-DI 3.6L V6 with the 3.0L DI one.

Oh I know it happens, in the UK it comes with the benefit you can save money on car tax because your car is 1g CO2/100km lighter than it was in last years release.

 

[homeforsummer]

I believe the Fiat 500 Twin Air is the best example.

Nearly 70 down to sub 50 and nearly 40 in some cases!

Yup, apparently the new, widely-praised Ford 3-cyl turbo engine is very similar. And yet the VW up! I drove the other day got up into the mid-50s MPG (quoted figures are mid 60s) with very little difficulty even though I was having fun with it - vastly preferable to an engine you need to really work with to get good figures.

I've got a magazine review where they actually managed to beat the government figures for the TwinAir, but they said they were travelling unrealistically slowly to do so. You'd have to have a very specific commute - lots of 30-40mph stuff with little stopping and not many hills - to really match it regularly. Only a small percentage of drivers would likely regularly get the official figures.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Yup, apparently the new, widely-praised Ford 3-cyl turbo engine is very similar. And yet the VW up! I drove the other day got up into the mid-50s MPG (quoted figures are mid 60s) with very little difficulty even though I was having fun with it - vastly preferable to an engine you need to really work with to get good figures.

I've got a magazine review where they actually managed to beat the government figures for the TwinAir, but they said they were travelling unrealistically slowly to do so. You'd have to have a very specific commute - lots of 30-40mph stuff with little stopping and not many hills - to really match it regularly. Only a small percentage of drivers would likely regularly get the official figures.

It's pretty nuts though. Honest John pretty much publishes a letter a week restating that you can't return a car that doesn't match the quoted figures and that car dealers can't quote anything other than the official figures.

 

[homeforsummer]

It's pretty nuts though. Honest John pretty much publishes a letter a week restating that you can't return a car that doesn't match the quoted figures and that car dealers can't quote anything other than the official figures.

Yup, it's not the manufacturers that are really at fault. It's the legal obligation to subscribe to a testing system that isn't really realistic. Some carmakers are naturally going to improve the sales potential of their cars by figuratively and literally gearing them towards good results in the test.

 

[niky]

I've always thought that EPA combined was a good guide.

On the other hand, I've gotten over 80 mpg in a Gen 3 Prius, so I'm not a typical driver...

I hope they bring this sucker to Asia... I'd really love to get under 2 l / 100 km.

 

[Keef]

Now that I look at this car, I'm rather concerned that it will be immensely unsafe in terms of handling and braking ability. But then I have to assume it'll be very, very light with tires so skinny. Surely it can't be worse than a Prius.

 

[homeforsummer]

Now that I look at this car, I'm rather concerned that it will be immensely unsafe in terms of handling and braking ability. But then I have to assume it'll be very, very light with tires so skinny. Surely it can't be worse than a Prius.

VW didn't reveal a weight figure I don't think, when the concept came out at the beginning of last year, but I expect it's fairly light.

There's no reason to assume it'll be unsafe though. No company is daft enough to release something that falls off the road as soon as someone tries to take a corner in it.

I drove the VW up! last week. Weighs just over 2,000 lbs, and was wearing 165-section tyres. I've not driven something with tyres that narrow for years (apart from my Beetle, which I think has 145-sections...) but at no point did it feel unsafe. In fact, thanks to the light weight and reasonably low CoG it actually hung on pretty well, and felt vastly more nimble than the new Beetle on 205-sections I drove the same day.

 

[Keef]

I suppose I'm a little biased in terms of what is "unsafe". For example, I don't slow down for highway ramps unless they're exceptionally tight, and I don't slow for corners in 25 mph neighborhoods, or most corners for that matter. Don't have to. Unless there's a Corvette in front of me, and then I'll have to slow so I don't hit him.

I have a legitimate reason too - it saves gas. If you don't slow down, then you won't have to accelerate back up to speed. If everyone drove like me there would be zero accordion effect on the roads, but if everyone drove like me they'd be in a ditch full of Siennas.

 

[homeforsummer]

I have a legitimate reason too - it saves gas. If you don't slow down, then you won't have to accelerate back up to speed. If everyone drove like me there would be zero accordion effect on the roads, but if everyone drove like me they'd be in a ditch full of Siennas.

Fair point, I suppose you need to save all the gas you can with the Rex. However, in something like the VW the odd bit of slowing for corners probably isn't as much of an issue. I expect it still corners okay, given that the centre of gravity must be pretty low, it's got a long-ish wheelbase which is good for stability, and it probably weighs very little too.

Other advantage of the narrow tyres is low resistance. I expect it coasts very easily indeed and probably doesn't use a lot of energy to keep moving either.