VOTE for Best French Car

[barryl85]

A development of that 'un-inovative' hydrophnuematic suspension.


Your own innovation vs gimmick argument could quite easily be used against the Veyron, very little of its technology is innovative or new (it may be of motorsport origin but its certainly not new and most is bought in), and it would be just as easy to accuse it of being a car with one single gimmick, speed.


Regards

Scaff

Well you cant really say that, theres nothing wrong with taking old technology/concept/anything and making it better, or a newer version.

e.g, if this wasnt the case we wouldnt have GT4 - and we'd still only have a PS1 with GT1.

 

[GM]

I voted Renault Clio for the plain reason they made the Sport 16V, best car ever, looks so good, and destroys all other hot hatches

 

[barryl85]

I voted Renault Clio for the plain reason they made the Sport 16V, best car ever, looks so good, and destroys all other hot hatches

I admit it is a quick car but what hot hatches did you see it destroy?

Honda Civic Type-r?
Ford Focus RS?
Vauxhall Astra VXR?

You would be lucky if the V6 could thrash those.

 

[Dave A]

The V6 MK2 maybe could, but not the MK1, but at the end of the day the 172 was faster on a track than the MK1 V6, the 182 is faster still but I don't know how much better the MK2 is on a track, though it was a notable improvement as a car over the MK1.

 

[Scaff]

Well you cant really say that, theres nothing wrong with taking old technology/concept/anything and making it better, or a newer version.

e.g, if this wasnt the case we wouldnt have GT4 - and we'd still only have a PS1 with GT1.

I didn't say anything like that at all!!!

My point is that the technology in the Veyron is not innovative, I'm not questioning the effectiveness of its application at all. The DS on the other hand did produce innovative technology that worked and is still being used today.

I also have a big issue with the entire 'if its not adopted straight-away by the mainstream then its a gimmick' argument, by this measure 4WD and ABS in sports cars are nothing more than a gimmick, seeing as they
were first used in the Jensen Interceptor FF in 1966, again decades before being accepted by the mainstream.

I admit it is a quick car but what hot hatches did you see it destroy?

Honda Civic Type-r?
Ford Focus RS?
Vauxhall Astra VXR?

You would be lucky if the V6 could thrash those.

A number of magazine have recently lined up the latest Clio 197 against such competition and in every case the Clio came out on top (Autocar IIRC did a group test of the Clio 197, Astra VXR and Focus ST). I wouild not argue that the Focus RS would beat a 197, but then again it should, not really a like for like comparison (then again in the Evo test I talk about below on real b-roads the RS didn't even make the last six).


The best one I can recomend is this months Evo which takes 15 of the best FWD cars and drives them against each other for days. The overall winner was the Integra Type-R (sorry but the last generation Civic Type-R is not that great - and yes I have driven one), with the Clio Trophy second and Clio Williams third.

Yes on paper the Civic, Focus and Astra have the Clio beaten, but paper stats have never made a Hot-hatch, rather how it is able to deliver that power and the pace it allows the driver to maintain are far more important.

 

[IMADreamer]

I think my problem with the DS is it's boring. If we are worried about innovation on these polls then we are going to be picking cars like the MB motor carriage of the 1890s, the Model T because of the assymbly line process, and other horrifically boring cars. That's not what the Bugatti is about, it's about your imagination, excitement, and impracticality. Few ever get to buy a car like that just to have a car like that and that's what's so fantastic about the Bugatti. It's out there, it's useless, but damn is it awsome. The car brings the child out in you when you think about it and that's what it is supposed to do. It's the car you would want if you were 7, it's the car you want if your playing a video game, and it's the supercar of supercars. To have it lose to some practical car that had swivel headlights and a self leveling suspension is almost a shame. It signifies the death of all your imaginations. Now go buy a Camary and be boring.

I guess it is what makes me fundamentally different then some of you. When I think of great cars my number one requirement is that it has to be cool. It has to have some kind of presence about it that will turn heads and make you know it's around. That's the Bugatti, it's got a presence that the DS will never have and that's what makes it special. That's what makes it great.

 

[Scaff]

I think my problem with the DS is it's boring. If we are worried about innovation on these polls then we are going to be picking cars like the MB motor carriage of the 1890s, the Model T because of the assymbly line process, and other horrifically boring cars. That's not what the Bugatti is about, it's about your imagination, excitement, and impracticality. Few ever get to buy a car like that just to have a car like that and that's what's so fantastic about the Bugatti. It's out there, it's useless, but damn is it awsome. The car brings the child out in you when you think about it and that's what it is supposed to do. It's the car you would want if you were 7, it's the car you want if your playing a video game, and it's the supercar of supercars. To have it lose to some practical car that had swivel headlights and a self leveling suspension is almost a shame. It signifies the death of all your imaginations. Now go buy a Camary and be boring.

I guess it is what makes me fundamentally different then some of you. When I think of great cars my number one requirement is that it has to be cool. It has to have some kind of presence about it that will turn heads and make you know it's around. That's the Bugatti, it's got a presence that the DS will never have and that's what makes it special. That's what makes it great.

Have you ever even seen a DS, let alone ridden in one?

Given the comments above I seriously doubt it, the car is far from boring. In fact its about the most inacurate descriptive term I could think to describe it.

This is a poll for 'best French car', not fastest or most expensive, and I'm quite sure that the Benz wagen and Model T will be nominated when the related countries come around.

Your number one requirement of 'cool' actually sums up the DS v ery well, it is indeed a very cool car, but not in a maximum horsepower 'I'm obsessed with bhp' way.

The DS has been classed as a great car since it was launched over 50 years ago, the Veyron is a technical showcase (but not innovation in my opinion) but it certainly remains to be seen if it will ever be classed as one of the greats. It may have the claim for most bhp and v-max for a road car, but it the current climate how long will it hold onto that for. And once thats gone what else does it have?

DS not cool, yeah right, the Veyron tries so hard to be cool (and fails for me) the DS doesn't even bother trying and thats why its cool.


Regards

Scaff

 

[TheCracker]

What's going to be so special about the Veyron when in 6 months time someone brings out a faster car, or in a years time when someone brings out a more powerful car?

All the Veyron's done is raise the stakes. Theres nothing much else remarkable about it. The 2CV even beat it to it's two-tone 'scaloped' colour scheme.

 

[Famine]

What's going to be so special about the Veyron when in 6 months time someone brings out a faster car, or in a years time when someone brings out a more powerful car?

All the Veyron's done is raise the stakes. Theres nothing much else remarkable about it. The 2CV even beat it to it's two-tone 'scaloped' colour scheme.

The Koenigsegg CCX already claims it's faster, and the Weineck Cobra has been more powerful for quite some time now.

 

[Dave A]

I thought they claimed 250mph, not 253mph+, either way, it's not actually gone faster yet, at least not on record.

There's been more powerful cars before, Weineck have been making 1000bhp+ Cobras as Famine said for over 5 years and they arn't the only ones. Lotec designed and built a 1333bhp supercar back in the 90's but ran out of funding to manufacture more than the one they used in the shows (which was a fully operational roadworthy 1333bhp supercar) and they couldn't find anyone to back them financially.

 

[Tornado]

I think I may know what the big fuss is: The U.S. spec DS had less than half of the technology that the Euro spec one, due to the outdated regulations that eventually banned the XM.

 

[YSSMAN]

Mashed potatoes, gravy, and canberry sauce! Wooooo Hooooo!

Wow, this thread has turned out to be a bit more heated than what I had anticipated... Especially when it came to French cars, considering the success of High-Test's French engine thread.

I think it was Scaff (yeah, I think it was Scaff...) who pointed out that picking the "Best" doesn't always mean the fastest, best-looking, etc. Granted that all is part of what should happen in the thread, but you also have to consider the cars that did a lot for the given industry despite not being entirely successful or completely appealing to everyone.

This thread has been a good test of what can happen, and I'm sure much the same thing will occour in the German and American threads...

 

[Scaff]

I think I may know what the big fuss is: The U.S. spec DS had less than half of the technology that the Euro spec one, due to the outdated regulations that eventually banned the XM.

Now that certainly would have a bearing on things.

Wow, this thread has turned out to be a bit more heated than what I had anticipated... Especially when it came to French cars, considering the success of High-Test's French engine thread.

I think it was Scaff (yeah, I think it was Scaff...) who pointed out that picking the "Best" doesn't always mean the fastest, best-looking, etc. Granted that all is part of what should happen in the thread, but you also have to consider the cars that did a lot for the given industry despite not being entirely successful or completely appealing to everyone.

This thread has been a good test of what can happen, and I'm sure much the same thing will occour in the German and American threads...

That certainly was me and I have to say I'm looking forward to the German and American one greatly, I certainly hope they are as much fun as this one has been.

I think the problem with the French engine thread was that the French have never built what I would personally describe as a great road car engine. There talent lie elsewere, certainly when it comes to innovation they have produced a number of cars that have had major impact on the automotive landscape.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Famine]

What about the PRV V6 engine, which found its way into, amongst others, the DeLorean, a couple of Alpines and the MVS Venturi range?

 

[Scaff]

What about the PRV V6 engine, which found its way into, amongst others, the DeLorean, a couple of Alpines and the MVS Venturi range?

Its not a bad engine, but not what I would class as one of the best.

The French tend to make very workman-like engines for road cars, relatively strong, cheap and reliable (French cars may have a reputation for poor reliability but its rarely the engine that causes the problem).

Even current great French cars such as the Renaultsport Clio, tend to have more functional engines than great ones.

Motorsport is another matter however, but for road cars not the best (but not that bad).

Regards

Scaff

 

[Famine]

"Not bad"? Come on! It can make anywhere between 0 and literally some horsepower...

 

[Tornado]

And with forced induction, is goes from "some" to "somewhat less than mediocre."
Edit: Not counting the Venturi's.

 

[Scaff]

"Not bad"? Come on! It can make anywhere between 0 and literally some horsepower...

Actually I've been giving it some thought and I do have one that I would rate, this...

The 1.4 from the Renault 5 Turbo, its a solid little hemi engine that responds well to tuning (final group b versions were pushing 350bhp) and very reliable.

Regards

Scaff

 

[YSSMAN]

With the Citroen DS up by nine votes, do I call it now, or should we just use the top three?

Your choises there...

 

[niky]

I'd say seal it... but it wouldn't be fair if you didn't follow the same format as last time.

 

[1X83Z]

Hell no. Use the top three. The performance people are going to choose the Veyron and hopefully my argument here made some headway into displaying the fact that the DS has no legitimate technological advancements.

 

[niky]

But the people who voted for cars like the Alpine and 2CV are going to vote for the DS. I count 18 high-horsepower votes (both Bugattis, Hommell(???) and the Venturi) and a possible 20+ DS votes.

Although I think one or two of the Venturi votes might go the other way...

 

[Famine]

I thought I was the only prat who voted for the Venturi... Hmm.