Want a 911? Why?
- Thread starter Onikaze
- 79 comments
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I'm sure Porsche could make a good FR 911, but all that expertise at making a car that should handle like crap, into a benchmark, well, if they weren't holding the Cayman back, it would completely outdo the 911.
Oh...I think I just had an orgasm imagining a 911 Turbo's AWD system and Engine altered to fit in a Cayman...that is like, the perfect car.
Oh...I think I just had an orgasm imagining a 911 Turbo's AWD system and Engine altered to fit in a Cayman...that is like, the perfect car.
Looks are a matter of opinion, I don't care too much for TVR styling to be honest, go figure that one eh.
The Cayman Turbo monster I mentioned would have the best possible drivetrain layout, with the MR and variable AWD, that awesome turbo flat six, and I think the Cayman is a gorgeous little car, especially after seeing one at the auto show a few months back.
Oh man, I need to stop thinking about that car.
The Cayman Turbo monster I mentioned would have the best possible drivetrain layout, with the MR and variable AWD, that awesome turbo flat six, and I think the Cayman is a gorgeous little car, especially after seeing one at the auto show a few months back.
Oh man, I need to stop thinking about that car.
- 30,022
- Cuddington, Cheshire
- JDA1982
Ofcourse they are, and the Cayman just screams ugly to me from the middle of the car back. I've seen a few on the street's, I've sat in one at a motorshow and all I can say that I like about them is they're nice inside and they sound good. The closest thing to the perfect car for me is the Aston Martin DB9, it's got the looks, performance, luxury, prestige etc, it's just one hell of a cool car imo.
Oh I can think of some wonderful automotive noises.
A Z06 at 3500-7000 Rpm
That Camaro Concept burbling away from the Camera in the video
A Mustang GT idling, and then turning it's rear tires into goo
An M5 zinging up to 8k
A 328 GTSi screaming at the top of it's lungs
The clickity click vrumpavrump idle of my old 535i
The rattle and chain sound of an Air Cooled 911
An M3 disappearing down the road with a "GOWMP!"
A Japanese V-6 idling in almost total silence
A Japanese straight 6 whistling as it's turbochargers come into boost
My old 302, and the way the intake had a kind of whistle too it
Oh, I could go on and on, F40's at full steam, Veyrons idling or launching hard, that CCX popping on downshifts as it shoots flame...one of my favorite part of cars is the noise. Truly I will miss the Internal Combustion Engine when Gasoline finally dies.
A Z06 at 3500-7000 Rpm
That Camaro Concept burbling away from the Camera in the video
A Mustang GT idling, and then turning it's rear tires into goo
An M5 zinging up to 8k
A 328 GTSi screaming at the top of it's lungs
The clickity click vrumpavrump idle of my old 535i
The rattle and chain sound of an Air Cooled 911
An M3 disappearing down the road with a "GOWMP!"
A Japanese V-6 idling in almost total silence
A Japanese straight 6 whistling as it's turbochargers come into boost
My old 302, and the way the intake had a kind of whistle too it
Oh, I could go on and on, F40's at full steam, Veyrons idling or launching hard, that CCX popping on downshifts as it shoots flame...one of my favorite part of cars is the noise. Truly I will miss the Internal Combustion Engine when Gasoline finally dies.
live4speed
That's usually my reaction to claims like that.Onikaze
+1 to all of them.
👍 However, you forgot about the Mazda 787B...
a few people in this thread
Bah. Squatting out behind the rear wheels is the right place.
You can't deny that it offers an advantage in acceleration and braking.Compared to what?
Having the engine closer to the center of gravity provides better handling, having it close to the rear axle too aids acceleration and braking just as much as RR does.
Without that annoying tendency to float the front end, the Cayman is what the 911 should have been 40 years ago.
Having the engine closer to the center of gravity provides better handling, having it close to the rear axle too aids acceleration and braking just as much as RR does.
Without that annoying tendency to float the front end, the Cayman is what the 911 should have been 40 years ago.
Indeed, and you need to put the passengers somewhere, and their luggage and drive controls, so slide them a little forwards, and the engine a little back.
That way when the car accelerates and the weight shifts back, it will be right onto the rear axle, providing traction increases with no loss in cornering dynamics.
I don't think anyone could disagree that, dynamically, the best possible all around drivetrain layout is Mid Engined, Variable AWD, it gives the best of all worlds, and only loses out in steering feel and front wheel scrub in some cases.
That way when the car accelerates and the weight shifts back, it will be right onto the rear axle, providing traction increases with no loss in cornering dynamics.
I don't think anyone could disagree that, dynamically, the best possible all around drivetrain layout is Mid Engined, Variable AWD, it gives the best of all worlds, and only loses out in steering feel and front wheel scrub in some cases.
- 30,022
- Cuddington, Cheshire
- JDA1982
I agree that the general best drivetrain for track performance is definitely mid-engined, but it's not the best for car's in general, for instance 4 seaters that have tried it have suffered because of it, ie the 911, would have to be a 2 seater if it was mid-engined.
I said that the RR layout provides an advantage in braking and acceleration, not cornering. The advantage isn't as pronounced compared to an MR as it is to an FR, but the advantage is there.
Having the weight all the way back there increases the force placed onto the rear wheels under acceleration even more than with FR or MR cars, increasing traction, and braking performance is improved because the weight distribution shifts towards 50/50 under heavy braking, unlike a balanced FR where the distribution goes front-heavy under braking.
Having the weight all the way back there increases the force placed onto the rear wheels under acceleration even more than with FR or MR cars, increasing traction, and braking performance is improved because the weight distribution shifts towards 50/50 under heavy braking, unlike a balanced FR where the distribution goes front-heavy under braking.
- 745
- Columbus
My friends dad has a white Cayman. And it's a nice car. Fast (enough), good steering. But it's missing something . . .
And on top of that it's about as interesting to look at as concrete.
And on top of that it's about as interesting to look at as concrete.
Keef
Premium
- 25,166
- Dayton, OH
- GTP_KeefRacer
- GTP Keef
I like all Porsches, even the ones I don't know about. Just in case you couldn't guess. I love the design of the Cayman and I dig it's performance. I love 911 for the same reasons. Sure, the Cayman handles just as good if not better than a Carrera S, but the two can only be compared in terms of performance. They are entirely different beasts. And yes, that Cayman GTR is badass--I saw it a week ago in my June Road&Track. I'd do it.
- 23,800
- Philippines
As for design... poo. People look at the Cayman, and they try to fit it in their iconic mindset of what a 911 should look like... and it doesn't fit... hence, they say it's ugly.
Ugly compared to what?
I see traces of old Porsche Spyders in the back there, The way the rear end comes down between the haunches, the hatch itself, all interesting and involving lines. Not necessarily new lines, actually... it reminds me of something from the Golden age of european sports cars. The front end may be classic Porsche (for identification's sake), but the rear end has a distinct identity... and that's a good thing.
It's challenging, because for the past twenty years or so, all the Porsche anyone has ever known is the 911. Even the technically good 944 got no love from Porsche-o-philes... because it was the wrong shape for a Porsche.
The 911 may have defined Porsche, but that's not all there is to them. It probably took some monumental effort for them to lift the inertia and build the Boxster... so monumental that it took them this long to finally build the Boxster that everyone's been waiting for... the Cayman. Probably the Cayenne success story (oh, I still hate the car, but I've got to admit, it's a good and successful one) has opened their mind to the possiblities of life after 9/11.
I don't really know how well AWD would suit the Cayman's mission... best to keep it simple... but then, Porsche loves making all these different models off of a single platform and body, and charging customers through the nose for the distinction, so AWD may not be far out there...
Ugly compared to what?
I see traces of old Porsche Spyders in the back there, The way the rear end comes down between the haunches, the hatch itself, all interesting and involving lines. Not necessarily new lines, actually... it reminds me of something from the Golden age of european sports cars. The front end may be classic Porsche (for identification's sake), but the rear end has a distinct identity... and that's a good thing.
It's challenging, because for the past twenty years or so, all the Porsche anyone has ever known is the 911. Even the technically good 944 got no love from Porsche-o-philes... because it was the wrong shape for a Porsche.
The 911 may have defined Porsche, but that's not all there is to them. It probably took some monumental effort for them to lift the inertia and build the Boxster... so monumental that it took them this long to finally build the Boxster that everyone's been waiting for... the Cayman.
Probably the Cayenne success story (oh, I still hate the car, but I've got to admit, it's a good and successful one) has opened their mind to the possiblities of life after 9/11.I don't really know how well AWD would suit the Cayman's mission... best to keep it simple... but then, Porsche loves making all these different models off of a single platform and body, and charging customers through the nose for the distinction, so AWD may not be far out there...
- 30,022
- Cuddington, Cheshire
- JDA1982
It would depends on the size of the chassis ane the cabin lenth and position, a car with the cabin right at the back (like say the E-Type Jag) would hardly make a good mid engined car, you'd have no weight over the front, but it's be a great car to have the engine in the front.
FMR is great for a drivers enjoyment, but it wouldn't put up the same types of numbers around a track or on a skidpad as a properly prepared MRAWD setup.
Pure FR/MR/RR feels a lot better to a purist, like me, but when it comes to traction advantages, slinging the lump into the middle, slightly rearward, and letting it run all 4 tires when needed, is just hard to beat.
Pure FR/MR/RR feels a lot better to a purist, like me, but when it comes to traction advantages, slinging the lump into the middle, slightly rearward, and letting it run all 4 tires when needed, is just hard to beat.
Keef
Premium
- 25,166
- Dayton, OH
- GTP_KeefRacer
- GTP Keef
All-wheel drive sucks. The front wheels steer, the back wheels go, and that's the best way to get it done. The only advantage AWD gives you is during the launch and in adverse conditions. It adds weight and understeer.
I would agree, because it's true, that in perfect situations a Front-Midship engine placement with rear-wheel drive and a rear transaxle or a MR setup with a rear transaxle would be the best for overall weight distribution and handling, respectively. If you want great transitional response, a 50/50% front-rear distribution is best. f you want the best straight-line braking performance it's best to have a slightly rearward weight bias, such as in a Viper, Z06, 599 (which I guarantee will brake well), and even a ~60% rear bias will work phenominally. Porsche's 997 911 has the same sized front and rear brakes. About 60% of the car's mass is on the rear axle, and therefore when the brakes are applied the weight shifts forward and ends up with a closer-to-50/50 distribution than a FR or FF setup, which means the front and rear wheels can take a similar amount of brake pressure and distribute the load fairly equally between all four wheels. A mid-engined car creates this same effect.
If you want to accelerate quickly AWD is usually the best option. Most AWD cars can handle a drop-clutch launch from high RPM, and therefore can rocket forward. A 911 can nearly match that because so much weight shifts over the rear wheels, squishing them with authority. But RR isn't the best for overall handling, because the rear end wants to swing around during low throttle situations, and the front end, for lack of weight, always wants to understeer. Only Porsche's technology and great engineering have overcome these characteristics, and they don't have it quite right yet.
Obviously FF caers don't do anything well, so we'll skip them.
I guess my point is that front-engined AWD cars have too much understeer, though they launch well, and the system just adds too much weight to a mid-engined car to make use of the weight distribution benenfit.
If AWD with a mid-engine setup was the best, this here Cayman GTR would be that. It's not. And yes, they could splice in a Turbo AWD system.
I would agree, because it's true, that in perfect situations a Front-Midship engine placement with rear-wheel drive and a rear transaxle or a MR setup with a rear transaxle would be the best for overall weight distribution and handling, respectively. If you want great transitional response, a 50/50% front-rear distribution is best. f you want the best straight-line braking performance it's best to have a slightly rearward weight bias, such as in a Viper, Z06, 599 (which I guarantee will brake well), and even a ~60% rear bias will work phenominally. Porsche's 997 911 has the same sized front and rear brakes. About 60% of the car's mass is on the rear axle, and therefore when the brakes are applied the weight shifts forward and ends up with a closer-to-50/50 distribution than a FR or FF setup, which means the front and rear wheels can take a similar amount of brake pressure and distribute the load fairly equally between all four wheels. A mid-engined car creates this same effect.
If you want to accelerate quickly AWD is usually the best option. Most AWD cars can handle a drop-clutch launch from high RPM, and therefore can rocket forward. A 911 can nearly match that because so much weight shifts over the rear wheels, squishing them with authority. But RR isn't the best for overall handling, because the rear end wants to swing around during low throttle situations, and the front end, for lack of weight, always wants to understeer. Only Porsche's technology and great engineering have overcome these characteristics, and they don't have it quite right yet.
Obviously FF caers don't do anything well, so we'll skip them.
I guess my point is that front-engined AWD cars have too much understeer, though they launch well, and the system just adds too much weight to a mid-engined car to make use of the weight distribution benenfit.
If AWD with a mid-engine setup was the best, this here Cayman GTR would be that. It's not. And yes, they could splice in a Turbo AWD system.
They would have to fabricate all sorts of parts because a Porsche engine transmits power forward, not rearward and forward like a MR AWD system needs.
With a variable torque split between the front and rear tires, the car can handle like it's MR only until the front slips, or during launches, making it much more versatile than just a pure MR setup. FMR and MR can achieve the same weight balance if you try, but having a slight rearward weight bias tends to help handling under braking and during acceleration.
With a variable torque split between the front and rear tires, the car can handle like it's MR only until the front slips, or during launches, making it much more versatile than just a pure MR setup. FMR and MR can achieve the same weight balance if you try, but having a slight rearward weight bias tends to help handling under braking and during acceleration.
- 354
gibus
You are correct. I have never been behind either. My cool car experience is rather limited. I do love the sound of a Porsche though. Especially in the midranges of the revs and in a parking garage. mmmmm
There are many cars that make great noises, but we were talking about Porsche so that's why I focused on it in my essay.
My top 5 list of favorite car sounds would probably go.
Porsche flat 6 /Ferrari V8 tied
440 Mopar (pick one they all sound the same)
LS1 Camaro with open exhaust
Lambo Countach
SL55 AMG Benz
- 2,615
- Germany
- Wangan01
- Wangan01
keef
I think it really depends. Of course most you say is true, AWD certainly means more weight for example. Then again it is not so much more weight. Cars above 600 hp might have more advantages from getting the power to the ground than disadvantages because of the weight. AWD doesn't necessariyl mean understeering ( Evo, Skyline GTR for example )....
And why is bad road conditions ( snow, rain, dirt ) no argument ? Of course it is imo....
my dad had had a 993 C2 cab last year until he had to sell it because of financial problems. Now he has a C4, lightly modded which he got from a business deal with his friend. They both bought an apartment and his friend bought him out. If you've ever been in an older 911 with a lot of windy curves and corners up ahead you know what seperates it from the rest...my dad has let me drive it a couple of times and I have to say i was amazed...He also took it to infineon a couple times since we live in SF. Now about the cayman, i am sure it is an amazing car but for some reason it justs reminds me of the boxster to much, and i just hate boxsters.
