War Crimes and misdemeanors

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ledhed

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Should Canada indict Bush?


THOMAS WALKOM

When U.S. President George W. Bush arrives in Ottawa — probably later this year — should he be welcomed? Or should he be charged with war crimes?

It's an interesting question. On the face of it, Bush seems a perfect candidate for prosecution under Canada's Crimes against Humanity and War Crimes Act.

This act was passed in 2000 to bring Canada's ineffectual laws in line with the rules of the new International Criminal Court. While never tested, it lays out sweeping categories under which a foreign leader like Bush could face arrest.

In particular, it holds that anyone who commits a war crime, even outside Canada, may be prosecuted by our courts. What is a war crime? According to the statute, it is any conduct defined as such by "customary international law" or by conventions that Canada has adopted.

War crimes also specifically include any breach of the 1949 Geneva Conventions, such as torture, degradation, wilfully depriving prisoners of war of their rights "to a fair and regular trial," launching attacks "in the knowledge that such attacks will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians" and deportation of persons from an area under occupation.

Outside of one well-publicized (and quickly squelched) attempt in Belgium, no one has tried to formally indict Bush. But both Oxfam International and the U.S. group Human Rights Watch have warned that some of the actions undertaken by the U.S. and its allies, particularly in Iraq, may fall under the war crime rubric.

The case for the prosecution looks quite promising. First, there is the fact of the Iraq war itself. After 1945, Allied tribunals in Nuremberg and Tokyo — in an astonishing precedent — ruled that states no longer had the unfettered right to invade other countries and that leaders who started such conflicts could be tried for waging illegal war.

Concurrently, the new United Nations outlawed all aggressive wars except those authorized by its Security Council.

Today, a strong case could be made that Bush violated the Nuremberg principles by invading Iraq. Indeed, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan has already labelled that war illegal in terms of the U.N. Charter.

Second, there is the manner in which the U.S. conducted this war.

The mistreatment of prisoners at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison is a clear contravention of the Geneva Accord. The U.S. is also deporting selected prisoners to camps outside of Iraq (another contravention). U.S. press reports also talk of shadowy prisons in Jordan run by the CIA, where suspects are routinely tortured. And the estimated civilian death toll of 100,000 may well contravene the Geneva Accords prohibition against the use of excessive force.

Canada's war crimes law specifically permits prosecution not only of those who carry out such crimes but of the military and political superiors who allow them to happen.

What has emerged since Abu Ghraib shows that officials at the highest levels of the Bush administration permitted and even encouraged the use of torture.

Given that Bush, as he likes to remind everyone, is the U.S. military's commander-in-chief, it is hard to argue he bears no responsibility.

Then there is Guantanamo Bay. The U.S. says detainees there do not fall under the Geneva accords. That's an old argument.

In 1946, Japanese defendants explained their mistreatment of prisoners of war by noting that their country had never signed any of the Geneva Conventions. The Japanese were convicted anyway.

Oddly enough, Canada may be one of the few places where someone like Bush could be brought to justice. Impeachment in the U.S. is most unlikely. And, at Bush's insistence, the new international criminal court has no jurisdiction over any American.

But a Canadian war crimes charge, too, would face many hurdles. Bush was furious last year when Belgians launched a war crimes suit in their country against him — so furious that Belgium not only backed down under U.S. threats but changed its law to prevent further recurrences.

As well, according to a foreign affairs spokesperson, visiting heads of state are immune from prosecution when in Canada on official business. If Ottawa wanted to act, it would have to wait until Bush was out of office — or hope to catch him when he comes up here to fish.

And, of course, Canada's government would have to want to act. War crimes prosecutions are political decisions that must be authorized by the federal attorney-general.

Still, Prime Minister Paul Martin has staked out his strong opposition to war crimes. This was his focus in a September address to the U.N. General Assembly.

There, Martin was talking specifically about war crimes committed by militiamen in far-off Sudan. But as my friends on the Star's editorial board noted in one of their strong defences of concerted international action against war crimes, the rule must be, "One law for all."


Not that there is a chance in hell of this happening, but just for the fun of it.....
What if ?
 
I've seen no evidence that Bush or even top military officials encouraged the use of torture. So I think if they wanted to prosecute someone for war crimes committed against Iraqi prisoners they'd have to go lower level in the US military.

As for invading Iraq it sounds like the way they've defined war crimes that they could bring a charge against Bush. I think they should... see how far it would get them.
 
What a joke. Under Canada's logic, when Chirac and Putin show up, they should arrest them as well.

About the 'what if' thing, who ever would arrest Bush, would have to get past hundreds of Secret Service agents. :lol:

Oh speaking of the Secret Service. Some Chilean lap dogs tried to stop agents assigned to Bush at some dinner. The agents weren't so happy and started to push away the Chilean security. Bush himself stepped in, stopped the shoving, and pulled his agents in.

"Chilean security tried to stop the president's Secret Service from accompanying him," said White House deputy press secretary Claire Buchan. "He (Bush) told them they were with him and the issue was resolved."
Bravo to Bush for taking charge. 👍

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041121/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_security_fracas_5
 
I never thought I would stand up for Bush, but there is a first time for everything.

First of all, arresting Bush for war crimes would be the dumbest possible thing Canada could do aside from declare war on the US. We are nearly dependant on the US to have a strong economy. We, in short, are America's b*tches. Yes, I said it. But it's pretty much the truth. Without the US, Canada would wither and die economically.

And secondly, some of the terms listed makes anyone who ever launched a major military offensive a war criminal. Virtually any major offensive in a populated area will incur civilian casualties because it is almost an inevitability in war. And, the mistreatment of the Abu Ghraib prisoners was not Bush's fault as far as I know. Every military in the world has some rotten apples in it, so crap like that is bound to happen in a major war. Also, I would like to see how many of the 100,000 civilian causalties have been a direct result of coalition fire.
 
I think you are talking about the" estimate" Arwin came up with in a link ? Thats been said to be fraudulent the 100,000 ' guess" is a wild one.
 
wheellift
Those prisoners at Abu Ghraib were'nt tortured, They were humiliated, I don't think any one died or were physically harmed.....

Torture doesn't just consist of physical harm. The official definition includes psychological torture. This kind of torture is actually a well-known method of torture in the Middle-East. If intelligence research picked up on that the staff may well have picked up on that on a higher level. What level as yet remains speculation.

@ledhed: the 100.000 was an estimation based on a method that was considered valid when applied to the Balkan war. That's not to say it has to be very accurate but that works either way.

@Ev0: the figure includes indirect deaths as a result of draught, starvation, illness, accidents, and so on, as far as they are considered to be by-effects of the war (so on top of the average number of people dying in the years before).

I personally think Guantanamo Bay is one certain road to conviction, so by mere fact of that alone I doubt anyone will try - it would end up very messy. That doesn't make it less wrong though.

@Viper Zero: like oh my god, isn't Bush like a totally cool dude? Why I'd almost thing you were like disappointed that he like outlawed two men marry each other because otherwise like I knew you'd have totally proposed already. :dopey:
 
Those prisoners at Abu Ghraib were'nt tortured, They were humiliated, I don't think any one died or were physically harmed.....

I'd consider a baseball bat in the a*s physical harm.

Thats been said to be fraudulent the 100,000 ' guess" is a wild one.

Considering that it only has 1 significant digit, I'd say you automatically can't go far with that number.
 
Arwin
I personally think Guantanamo Bay is one certain road to conviction, so by mere fact of that alone I doubt anyone will try - it would end up very messy. That doesn't make it less wrong though.
Except nobody there is a soldier and the Geneva convention doesn't apply.
 
milefile
Except nobody there is a soldier and the Geneva convention doesn't apply.
If I remember correctly, many of the people in Guantanamo were soldiers that were fighting for Afghanistan - not for Osama. Either way, if bush calls this a "war" on terrorism, doesn't that automatically make everyone he's after a soldier and therefore applicable to the same geneva laws?
 
milefile
Except nobody there is a soldier and the Geneva convention doesn't apply.

The article itself already refutes that argument. Did you even read it? But even if you were right and the Geneva convention did not apply, Canada's Crimes against Humanity and War Crimes Act only *includes* the Geneva conventions for the War Crimes section of the Act. The Crimes against Humanity part contains the following:

"crime against humanity" means murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, imprisonment, torture, sexual violence, persecution or any other inhumane act or omission that is committed against any civilian population or any identifiable group and that, at the time and in the place of its commission, constitutes a crime against humanity according to customary international law or conventional international law or by virtue of its being criminal according to the general principles of law recognized by the community of nations, whether or not it constitutes a contravention of the law in force at the time and in the place of its commission.

I'm no expert but I'll bet that when they mention imprisonment above "according to customary international law", the right to a fair trial is one of the more basic human rights and Guantanamo Bay a clear breach.

So either way, Guantanamo Bay is 👎
 
You're not talking about Gitmo? It sounded like you were.

You said Gitmo was bad, so I compared it to prisons on Fallujah. Which is worse?

Those two articles are about released Gitmo detainees who committed crimes after they got out. No matter how bad you think Gitmo is, it is necessary to fight the war against terrorism.
 
Viper Zero
You're not talking about Gitmo? It sounded like you were.

You said Gitmo was bad, so I compared it to prisons on Fallujah. Which is worse?

Again, totally irrelevant. Remember what this topic is about? The Canadian Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act? What would happen if Bush were arrested and tried? All I've been saying that Guantanamo Bay, if tested, would have a very good chance to lead to a conviction.

The rest is off-topic:

Those two articles are about released Gitmo detainees who committed crimes after they got out.

Let's put every suspect in jail without trial. One or two of those suspects might actually be guilty! I'm sure you prevent more crime that way than by putting only the innocents in jail. Of course, you'd have to make them all lifers and keep a close watch on their friends, because they may get upset and think bad thoughts.

No matter how bad you think Gitmo is, it is necessary to fight the war against terrorism.

To get back onto topic: you only make it more obvious that Guantanamo Bay can and would probably be considered even a breach of the Geneva convention, never mind basic Human Rights, as the topic-starting article already suggested.
 
Arwin , the people in gitmo are not there because they were arrested by the police for bank robbery. You are confusing them with common criminals. They are part of terrorist orginizations captured by soldiers in the course of battle or they are captured by foriegn governments and turned over to the US as suspected terrorist and have no standing under US law or international law as legal combatants. geniva did not seem to recognise the current crop of terrorist as combatants in a war. In fact , in the past they would have just been called irregulars or guerrillas and excecuted in the field. or at least thats what has been done with them . This seems to be a new type of war with new rules. IMO they are getting better treatment than they deserve. Ask yourself this ; what did the large majority of the prisoners in gottmo do to get there? You seem to think they were innocently walking about in the woods or asleep at home dreaming about buttercups when the big bad boogie man snatched them up.
 
Gitmo is a country club compared to nomal life in Afganistan....they get fed,clean clothes and living conditions,shelter,and still allowed to practice there religon.....I'm sure that some homeless in the U.S. would like to visit the place...
 
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