Washington Redskins Name Controversy

[Jordan]

@Jordan What do you think of this?

To be frank, I don't understand how myself or GTPlanet is relevant to this conversation.

Regarding the word "Paki", I have never heard it before. If it or any other racial slur became regularly used as an insult around the forums, I would add it to the profanity filter.

 

[a6m5]

I think I heard it in foreign films, but had no idea it was that offensive.

Hint - @a6m5 will likely know all about it.

I haven't followed the discussion, but I did sense cultural/regional misunderstandings on the last page. Yes, I am aware of the three letter "N" word in reference to the Japanese, but I never hear it in the States. On the other hand, I have seen "J@p" used, not in a derogatory fashion, but in short for Japanese. I was little offended by that. Where I come from, and where I now reside(Japan to U.S.), "J@p" was an insult to the Japanese. *note When I type "J@p", it automatically corrects it to "Japanese". I appreciate the feature, but I didn't know it existed. Very cool, @Jordan. 👍

Back to the topic: I have no take on the Redskins, as while I often argue in defense of the Native Americans(for obvious history), I have heard that most Native Americans don't really care a whole lot about this issue(I actually think it sounds very cool). If considerable number of the Native Americans want the name changed, I would side with them, though I'm of the opinion it should be pressured through public opinions, and not as a government action.

 

[FoolKiller]

I say - draw it here or draw it there, but draw it straight.

The line is drawn straight along the most commonly accepted standard in the US.

But you have completely derailed this thread. It is not about GTPs' language rules. There is a section to have those discussions.

But you do help me with a point I have been pondering. This seems to be such a non-controversy that it has gotten off track to discuss the memory tool for identifying a coral snake and now to discuss racial language usage in general and in the site rules. This is something I have seen in our media as well. Unless something happens to bring it back up it is never mentioned. A few broadcasting rules were made and it faded into the background, obscured by the spectacle of the sport. It even takes very little to derail a discussion specifically about it.

I'm ready to file this under "not an issue" and wait to see if Ebola is just another bird/swine flu story. Same as the Ban Bossy Campaign.


EDIT: I still had to Google this three-letter N word. I only ever hear it in relation to breasts. And that is in no way a bad thing.

 

[LeMansAid]

But you have completely derailed this thread. It is not about GTPs' language rules. There is a section to have those discussions.

Really? I'd have thought that exploring what is and is not considered acceptable, with GTP being a representative microcosm, would be quite relevant.

Looking at what terms in here and in the wider community seem to be currently out of bounds, dubious, or perfectly fine gives a reference point to look at which direction people might rather the tide head. "If it's currently dubious, are we better off as a society if Redskins is seen more as an out of bounds, or a perfectly fine?" sort of thing. I doubt that the specifics of that will ever impact on me directly, but in general I tend to think along the lines that I've already stated, that we need less in-sensitivity, less over-sensitivity, and more de-sensitivity.

By the way, sometimes claims of derailment are actually what ends up derailing. Also, I still feel like we might have similar views but you want to find a way to be contrary regardless, or something.

 

[Famine]

@Famine I find it interesting that you walked right past the N word (three letter version), the P word, and of course the R word that's in the very title of this thread.

That's nice for you.

I found it interesting that you said @Jordan had no respect for black people by preventing a racial epithet directed at them from being displayed on his site.

 

[KSaiyu]

In my experience they're pretty much used in the same way - they can be extremely insulting or casually used between friends/people you're close with. Also comes down a lot to "class" as well: it's regularly used by my asian friends with more working class roots but I'd never hear it from my Indian girlfriend who had a more comfortable upbringing. I've never had either used in a derogatory way directly at me though (I'm half asian/black), but it's usually my sister who encounters the more verbal racism.

 

[Johnnypenso]

To be frank, I don't understand how myself or GTPlanet is relevant to this conversation.

Regarding the word "Paki", I have never heard it before. If it or any other racial slur became regularly used as an insult around the forums, I would add it to the profanity filter.

I've known several Pakistani over the years, and they used to call themselves "Paki" all the time, short for Pakistani. Brit short for British, Mex short for Mexican, Swede short for Swedish etc. In this particular case, there is nothing innately derogatory about the word IMO, but like any other word, it can become so in a certain context.

In my experience they're pretty much used in the same way - they can be extremely insulting or casually used between friends/people you're close with. Also comes down a lot to "class" as well: it's regularly used by my asian friends with more working class roots but I'd never hear it from my Indian girlfriend who had a more comfortable upbringing. I've never had either used in a derogatory way directly at me though (I'm half asian/black), but it's usually my sister who encounters the more verbal racism.

You're the whitest looking half asian/black, 10 year old girl I've ever seen

 

[KSaiyu]

You're the whitest looking half asian/black, 10 year old girl I've ever seen

Vitiligo is not something you can hide easily

 

[Liquid]

Vitiligo is not something you can hide easily

Is that what Michael Jackson had?

 

[FoolKiller]

In a similar situation, a high school fired their coach over a post-game ritual that involved players bashing a watermelon with faces drawn on them. They named the characters after their location, but that name was in reference to a historically black school. He was rehired after writing an agreement to work on sensitivity training with his team.

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20141022/PC16/141029813/1177

the team would stand in a circle chanting and smash a watermelon with a caricature face drawn on the fruit with black marker. Several of the watermelons were named Bonds-Wilson, McGinley said, which is a reference to the high school's location in North Charleston. The Bonds-Wilson Campus pays tribute to a historically black school previously on that site.
School Board member Michael Miller reported the team's tradition to the school district on Oct. 13. He raised concerns about the racial overtones of the tradition after hearing from a parent of a Military Magnet Academy student who was offended by the ritual, which the team performed following its defeat of Military Magnet on Sept. 5.

The NAACP brought up a point about perceptions due to an ignorance of history, but I feel like it began to make quite a reach.

"All of the elements of the ritual reflect familiar and insulting stereotypes about African-Americans," the group's statement said.
Charleston NAACP President Dot Scott said the district and the community need to focus on finding a way to address the issue so that students are more sensitive to potentially hurtful racial stereotypes.
"What are we going to do to fix this so we don't have another incident where people say 'I didn't know it was (offensive) and if it is we weren't aware of it'," Scott said. "Let's get deliberate about the fact that what may not offend you, very well may offend other people."
Racial connotations between watermelons and African-Americans date back to stereotypes and images that were prevalent after the Civil War, said Marcus Cox, professor of history at The Citadel.
"Watermelons were used to symbolize the idea that African-Americans were simple-minded and only needed rest and a little watermelon to be happy," Cox said. "It goes to perpetuate the idea that slaves were happy with their state. It was really perpetuated after the Civil War, as a way to demonstrate that blacks were not suitable for freedom, that they were in fact inferior and not good citizens.
"These negative images that many white Americans might not think much about are still offensive and hurtful to African-Americans," he said.

Is Gallagher next?

 

[TenEightyOne]

The watermelon part is immediately obvious; was he suggesting that he/the students had no idea of the connotations of the ritual?

 

[Pupik]

These are football players, if they're really so tough and manly, they should try sitting on a durian, instead of a weaker fruit with no defense system.

 

[TenEightyOne]

These are football players, if they're really so tough and manly, they should try sitting on a durian, instead of a weaker fruit with no defense system.

Haha they're not, they play in body and head protection, American-stylee. Rugger is proper football

 

[FoolKiller]

The watermelon part is immediately obvious; was he suggesting that he/the students had no idea of the connotations of the ritual?

Yes, because the origins go back over 100 years and kids today are not aware of those racial connotations. Very similarly, a woman sued Southwest Airlines because an attendant said, "Eeny Meeny Miny Moe, pick your seat and let's go." The attendant used it because it was a familiar rhyme from childhood used to pick things when you couldn't decide which you wanted. It went:
Eeny, meeny, miny, moe,
Catch a tiger by the toe.
If he hollers, let him go,
Eeny, meeny, miny, moe.
It was often used by my classmates to pick teams for games. My daughter uses it today.

But at one time tiger was not the word used and an elderly African American woman claimed damages in court against the airline due to psychological trauma.


I think the perception issue is one that needs to be looked at in cases like this. Someone who has heard a non-racially attacking version of a statement or word that was used generations ago won't know its origins. There needs to be a point where we need to recognize that the term still holds some offensiveness, no matter how many people use it in different ways (Redskins and sometimes the N-word would be an example), but other times where the insensitivity is only being perceived by people who refuse to let go of an offensive usage that has gone away we need to quit screaming "racist" because one person has a strongly held belief.

A good question would be: If a word can be banned because it can take on new negative connotations, why can't a word that loses its negative connotations be brought back into usage?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Yes, because the origins go back over 100 years and kids today are not aware of those racial connotations. Very similarly, a woman sued Southwest Airlines because an attendant said, "Eeny Meeny Miny Moe, pick your seat and let's go." The attendant used it because it was a familiar rhyme from childhood used to pick things when you couldn't decide which you wanted. It went:
Eeny, meeny, miny, moe,
Catch a tiger by the toe.
If he hollers, let him go,
Eeny, meeny, miny, moe.
It was often used by my classmates to pick teams for games. My daughter uses it today.

That's interesting; it's a common rhyme here too (children quickly figure how the trick works of course). My grandma would innocently say ****** (that'll be blocked despite paki being allowed) but the usual version said "devil".

I think watermelon/****** jokes are still very widespread, a quick glance at a certain chan shows they still feature in a reasonable number of extremely racist memes/photocaptions. I find it difficult to believe that the connotations weren't known to a single one.

Still, one has to take their word for it and I shall.

 

[FoolKiller]

I think watermelon/****** jokes are still very widespread, a quick glance at a certain chan shows they still feature in a reasonable number of extremely racist memes/photocaptions. I find it difficult to believe that the connotations weren't known to a single one.

Watermelons are also just plain fun to destroy because they have a the red, squishy center that contrasts the green skin, making for an entertaining sight when it busts. They have been used for bashing by many, many people. They are also a common target practice item for guns, throwing knives, arrows, etc.

Ultimately, the real question becomes, how is bashing a watermelon for fun similar to commenting on black people always eating watermelons? I am fully aware of the fried chicken and watermelon stereotypes. I don't see a watermelon being used in other ways or drive past a KFC and think it is racist.

See, I don't think they were ignorant of the history of watermelon stereotypes. I think they didn't see how it applied in the context they were using. When I drive my butcher's knife through a watermelon and hear that uneasily satisfying chunk I don't think about killing a black man. I am thinking about how cool that sound is and how good that watermelon will taste. Maybe it is because I am a white man who eats more watermelon than any of the black people I know.

Maybe I should take offense to watermelon activities. Wait what does it mean when college kids fill a watermelon with vodka?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Ultimately, the real question becomes, how is bashing a watermelon for fun similar to commenting on black people always eating watermelons? I am fully aware of the fried chicken and watermelon stereotypes. I don't see a watermelon being used in other ways or drive past a KFC and think it is racist.

I take your point but in this case (if I read it correctly) the watermelons are personalised with faces and are named after (or the ritual is named after) a black school that's notorious in local history?

 

[FoolKiller]

I take your point but in this case (if I read it correctly) the watermelons are personalised with faces and are named after (or the ritual is named after) a black school that's notorious in local history?

It's named after the area, which was named after a black school. It would require historical knowledge of the origin of a name of an area that is not a black school. Most places in the US are named after someone or thing of local significance, but they are very old. Kentucky has this. There are counties or towns where I think the name is very odd, but then find out that there was some politician with that name early in the state's history.

I would bet money that more Buffalo Bills players know the historical significance of their name than high school players on this team who know the historical significance of their area's name.

 

[TenEightyOne]

It's named after the area, which was named after a black school. It would require historical knowledge of the origin of a name of an area that is not a black school. Most places in the US are named after someone or thing of local significance, but they are very old. Kentucky has this. There are counties or towns where I think the name is very odd, but then find out that there was some politician with that name early in the state's history.

I would bet money that more Buffalo Bills players know the historical significance of their name than high school players on this team who know the historical significance of their area's name.

Fair enough, I don't know the area/history so can't comment. I still think plenty of people would be aware of the watermelon link but, as I said, I take their word for it

 

[FoolKiller]

I still think plenty of people would be aware of the watermelon link but, as I said, I take their word for it

The way you and the NAACP make it out to be, doing anything with a watermelon should be heavily scrutinized for being racially insensitive. It's just a melon.

I should be careful about how I use pumpkins, or else old New England area teachers and Hessians will be highly offended.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The way you and the NAACP make it out to be, doing anything with a watermelon should be heavily scrutinized for being racially insensitive. It's just a melon.

I should be careful about how I use pumpkins, or else old New England area teachers and Hessians will be highly offended.

Haha I do see your point, I just think this case seemed to be a perfect storm of watermelons and racial history

I'm not suggesting a world where the use of any large fruit is scrutinised for correctness, I just wouldn't like to see a world where we're all treated like bloody idiots on someone's smart word.

 

[Keef]

Haha I do see your point, I just think this case seemed to be a perfect storm of watermelons and racial history

You wanna see a storm of watermelons and racial history you should go to the hood on a hot summer day. It's like la Melotina.

 

[LeMansAid]

I've been wondering if the New York Y word will ever have their name scrutinised in the same way as Washington's is/has been. Based on the R word being "a thing", I can't see why not.

The New Zealand soccer team went through trials and tribulations in order to be allowed to call itself the All Whites, in a simple and poetic nod to their All Blacks rugby team. What would be the response if a UFC fighter got themselves a massive "WHITE PRIDE" tattoo? Would people bother to judge the intent over the words?

There's where we've been (with it's horrors), where we are (with far fewer horrors), and where we want to go. On "where we want to go", I think that the "careful what you wish for" warning might apply.

 

[FoolKiller]

I've been wondering if the New York Y word will ever have their name scrutinised in the same way as Washington's is/has been. Based on the R word being "a thing", I can't see why not.

Do you mean Yankee? It's seen as far more derogatory by the people who use it that way outside the U.S. We have no such issues with it here. The people you would apply it to will likely be proud to be called that. Worst you can get is calling a southerner a Yankee, which would have the same effect as calling them a liberal.

See, offense is in the eye of the beholder, which is why the, "why do we allow this word? I know it's offensive, so that's enough reason to ban it," mentality feels pretty stupid to me. It's on the same level as an employee filing a harassment complaint because they witnessed two other employees flirting.

And is the R word Redskins or Retarded? I've lost track.

What would be the response if a UFC fighter got themselves a massive "WHITE PRIDE" tattoo? Would people bother to judge the intent over the words?

You mean like this?

 

[LeMansAid]

See, offense is in the eye of the beholder, which is why the, "why do we allow this word? I know it's offensive, so that's enough reason to ban it," mentality feels pretty stupid to me.

Agreed, and that's why I suggest it's better to judge the intent over the word(s).

If it's not clear, my use of "P word", "R word", "Y word", is a slightly juvenile, but I think relevant, show of what things look like when standards are applied across the board. With the trajectory that we have at present, people will be poking their noses in and stirring up all sorts of ant nests in the future, and it will become utterly farcical. Not that there's not already plenty of farce - I've heard talk of "the pot calling the kettle black" being identified as racist, for goodness sake.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Yankee? ... no such issues with it here.

If it's not clear, my use of "P word", "R word", "Y word", is a slightly juvenile, but I think relevant, show of what things look like when standards are applied across the board.

Given that the board is an English lanaguage board I share your surprise that it only seems to filter swear-words as understood in the American dialect, that's quite unusual in my experience especially for a board that accepts juvenile users.

If I went outside now and call someone at the bus-stop a Paki I'd be interviewed/cautioned by the police - it's a crime. There'd be no difference between that and ******.

Worst you can get is calling a southerner a Yankee,

I once commented to a Razorbacks supporter on a large picture of a burning dog with downs-syndrome. Turns out its their warthog mascot. So I can tell you this works too

 

[FoolKiller]

Given that the board is an English lanaguage board I share your surprise that it only seems to filter swear-words as understood in the American dialect, that's quite unusual in my experience especially for a board that accepts juvenile users.

I could spell it out, but it isn't the topic of the thread.

If I went outside now and call someone at the bus-stop a Paki I'd be interviewed/cautioned by the police - it's a crime. There'd be no difference between that and ******.

I'm sorry your freedom of speech would be abridged like that.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I could spell it out, but it isn't the topic of the thread.

I'm sorry your freedom of speech would be abridged like that.

It sort of is on-topic if we're discussing a word that some find offensive and others don't.

I believe in freedom of speech too but not in the freedom of criminal hate speech, there's a line and it's right-and-proper that it exists.

 

[FoolKiller]

It sort of is on-topic if we're discussing a word that some find offensive and others don't.

If you take issue with this site's swear filter there is a site support forum. We don't own the site and it is not up to use to determine the rightness of the rules. Stay if you are fine with it and go if you aren't.

I believe in freedom of speech too but not in the freedom of criminal hate speech, there's a line and it's right-and-proper that it exists.

Good thing there is no such thing as criminal hate speech here.

And yes, there is a right and proper line and it shouldn't be crossed because that is just poor form and rude. But just because it is a good idea to be a certain way doesn't mean government should be forcing manners. Being offended is not hurt. It does not prevent you from doing anything. Freedom from being offended does not exist.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Good thing there is no such thing as criminal hate speech here.

There is, as I understand it.

In this country there is no right to speak fighting words—those words without social value, directed to a specific individual, that would provoke a reasonable member of the group about whom the words are spoken. For example, a person cannot utter a racial or ethnic epithet to another if those words are likely to cause the listener to react violently. However, under the First Amendment, individuals do have a right to speech that the listener disagrees with and to speech that is offensive and hateful.

Source.

Here's the wiki on Brandenburg .vs. Ohio, I think this is where the common test for immediacy is based.

I greatly prefer the US approach on this, incidentally