We are very hard on PoDi

[Tenacious D]

I don't like GT5's cockpit view in general. I find it to be too low and far back, so my view of choice is roof view. Sometimes hood view which is rather disorienting when I'm so used to being up high. With those cars, it's almost better to race from chase cam, unfortunately.

It's sounding like cockpit view is going to have to be patched in for the un-Premiums like it was the Standards in GT5. What I'm hoping along with whatever they do to improve GT6 is to give us the ability to adjust all the driver views to our liking, with the whole host of camera properties: placement, angle, scope of view, sway/fixed, vibration, etc. And savable. Hopefully, Gran Turismo will be the first game to give this to us.

If the point of your post was to refute the idea that when challenged you simply throw up your hands and say, "Well I guess every other game is perfect then!" or words to that effect, you might want to go back to the drawing board. Instead of taking irrelevant examples completely off topic, try using your own words as examples of how you respond to legitimate concerns about the GT series, "Well I guess every other game is perfect" being a good example.

Johnny, look. I have said what I posted in extensive, easy to understand lingo for most people for whom english is the primary language. My examples are COMPLETELY relevant. You can't compare the issues of the sounds in a video game without contrasting it with the most comparable game and team out there. "That other game" is off limits because some people get their feelings hurt over it for whatever reason, but that's the only other one you can compare Gran Turismo to. If they were able to create the perfect audio suite for their game, then yes, the whole matter of GT5's sounds would be down to some very dumb choices by PD's audio team. This is not the case, as has been stated scant few times here because of said butt-hurtness. This leaves any audio discussion to contrast GT5's sounds with games with FAR fewer cars, MUCH less variety, and sometimes nothing but a handful of race cars, like Race Room with its impeccable sounds.

Gee, that's sure fair.

But clearly, we're having a failure to communicate (previous remark a little crass, and my lunch is late), so have a nice day. I'm done with silly board politics for a good while.

 

[Cosbuster]

But what is supremely baffling is that some of you can't stand it if anyone has anything good to say about them, and spend a lot of time telling them how wrong / dumb / whatever they are

Once again, accusing others of something you do. Nobody has a problem with people being positive about the game. The problem is "those" that think positive is the only attitude to take and constantly call out other users based on their concerns, or enjoy acting like they're in the middle of a grand conspiracy to undermine the game. Does that ring any bells?

You also have a tendency of twisting vague information about the game and trying to present it as proof like I quoted a couple of pages ago. This is what people have a problem with rather than you simply being positive. If a positive attitude is fine, I don't see why a negative one is not. There wouldn't even be a forum without two "sides".

 

[Tenacious D]

Once again, accusing others of something you do. Nobody has a problem with people being positive about the game.

If you say so boss. No, actually you're dead wrong with a handful of naysayers. But you haven't been too keen to let a number of points lie unchallenged yourself. Samus and Tornado, though they have been cooling on the challenges slightly. But the whole lot of you guys are pretty quick to take offense at anyone who doesn't mind the shape GT6 seems to be taking. A few like CorvetteConquer have some right out and said, give PD hell about everything.

I think the most telling thing is that I got yet another message from a member bowing out of the boards because of the level of hostility towards anything positive about GT, PD, or K. And he's not a little kid, posts on a level of competency of Griffith500. If you think the environment here is just cozy nice, you have strange standards.

Well, one more thing. Some of you guys act like if we aren't upset over some feature or other, we're saying, "This is AWESOME!!" Kind of like me sarcastically throwing out, "Every game is perfect," and then you yahoos act like I mean it, when what I'm doing is mocking the kind of debates which go on here. The people who have said that GT5 is the perfect racer here might number... two. But you guys act like it's half the darn board, me included. Or that I'm saying, "The sounds / Standards / A.I. / whatever are perfect, so hush up, rapscallion." Zowie.

Anyway, I think I've made my points clear enough. If you don't get them, hey, it's still a mostly free universe, think what you want (again, a little crass, but I'm still waking up after a stupidly late recording session, and lunch is yet to manifest).

 

[Pupik]

I think the most telling thing is that I got yet another message from a member bowing out of the boards because of...

Nobody cares, let's keep it that way.

 

[Chippy569]

i don't understand the hostility towards tenacious. He provides valid arguments and has a positive light in this otherwise drab forum. Perhaps a couple threads celebrating the good things GT6 is bringing to the table would fix the atmosphere in here.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Good luck with that, I never see any thread that praise GT5 or 6, or at least not bombarded with negativity ... in Gtplanet

 

[Johnnypenso]

You can't compare the issues of the sounds in a video game without contrasting it with the most comparable game and team out there. "That other game" is off limits because some people get their feelings hurt over it for whatever reason, but that's the only other one you can compare Gran Turismo to. If they were able to create the perfect audio suite for their game, then yes, the whole matter of GT5's sounds would be down to some very dumb choices by PD's audio team. This is not the case, as has been stated scant few times here because of said butt-hurtness. This leaves any audio discussion to contrast GT5's sounds with games with FAR fewer cars, MUCH less variety, and sometimes nothing but a handful of race cars, like Race Room with its impeccable sounds.

Gee, that's sure fair.

But clearly, this is beyond your grasp or something, so have a nice day. I'm done with silly board politics for a good while.

And once again with the irrelevant comparison. Other videogames only show us what is possible but they are not the goal, the goal is reality, where you can't distinguish a game car from a real car. Other games are nudging that, GT is nowhere close to it. Your constant reference to one specific game is a red herring and does nothing to further the discussion on GT sound. You really need to let that go.

I, along with most others I believe, realize not much is going to change until GT7 at which point there is simply no excuse for not having the most kicka$$ car sounds of any game ever, console or PC. Along with the well documented limitations of the PS3 and the outstanding analysis of Griffith and Chippy among others, most of us realize GT7 is the likely home for sound improvement in the GT series, although we're still hopeful some minor changes will be forthcoming for GT6.

I think the most telling thing is that I got yet another message from a member bowing out of the boards because of the level of hostility towards anything positive about GT, PD, or K. And he's not a little kid, posts on a level of competency of Griffith500. If you think the environment here is just cozy nice, you have strange standards.

Well, one more thing. Some of you guys act like if we aren't upset over some feature or other, we're saying, "This is AWESOME!!" Kind of like me sarcastically throwing out, "Every game is perfect," and then you yahoos act like I mean it, when what I'm doing is mocking the kind of debates which go on here. The people who have said that GT5 is the perfect racer here might number... two. But you guys act like it's half the darn board, me included. Or that I'm saying, "The sounds / Standards / A.I. / whatever are perfect, so hush up, rapscallion." Zowie.

Anyway, I think I've made my points clear enough. If you don't get them, who cares.

If you can't stand the heat, get outta the kitchen. Not everyone is cut out for heated discussion.

 

[Tenacious D]

And once again with the irrelevant comparison. Other videogames only show us what is possible but they are not the goal, the goal is reality, where you can't distinguish a game car from a real car. Other games are nudging that, GT is nowhere close to it.

Wow... I don't agree with this at all. I mean, which game was it that fooled people into thinking they were watching eacing footage? GT5 Prologue, not even the good GT5. Sure, other games are nudging that NOW, but it took PD making everyone's heads spin to make them step up their game.

And I'm not the only one who likes the physics in GT5. A number of racing sim and real life racers have remarked about how well GT5 renders its reality. Sure, most people will debate issues that aren't realistic, but we evidently don't hit those speed bumps. Taste, feel and all that can be very different for different folk, clearly.

Your constant reference to one specific game is a red herring and does nothing to further the discussion on GT sound. You really need to let that go.

Sure boss.

I, along with most others I believe, realize not much is going to change until GT7 at which point there is simply no excuse for not having the most kicka$$ car sounds of any game ever, console or PC. Along with the well documented limitations of the PS3 and the outstanding analysis of Griffith and Chippy among others, most of us realize GT7 is the likely home for sound improvement in the GT series, although we're still hopeful some minor changes will be forthcoming for GT6.

Well, it's not like GT6 hasn't already improved considerably. Very few of us have experienced the tire model that Slipztreme and Terronium have at the latest demo pods, and they sound pretty enthusia'd.

Anyhow, had to go back and edit those posts you quoted out of courtesy - and fear, so thanks for quoting them.

And it sounds like we're actually on the same page for the most part, so have a virtual beer I don't have time to conjure up, because lunch has finally arrived.

And for you guys above, thanks. I'm trying to be someone making the place a fun, happy kind of asylum.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Wow... I don't agree with this at all. I mean, which game was it that fooled people into thinking they were watching eacing footage? GT5 Prologue, not even the good GT5. Sure, other games are nudging that NOW, but it took PD making everyone's heads spin to make them step up their game.

And I'm not the only one who likes the physics in GT5. A number of racing sim and real life racers have remarked about how well GT5 renders its reality. Sure, most people will debate issues that aren't realistic, but we evidently don't hit those speed bumps. Taste, feel and all that can be very different for different folk, clearly.


Sure boss.


Well, it's not like GT6 hasn't already improved considerably. Very few of us have experienced the tire model that Slipztreme and Terronium have at the latest demo pods, and they sound pretty enthusia'd.

Anyhow, had to go back and edit those posts you quoted out of courtesy - and fear, so thanks for quoting them.

And it sounds like we're actually on the same page for the most part, so have a virtual beer I don't have time to conjure up, because lunch has finally arrived.

And for you guys above, thanks. I'm trying to be someone making the place a fun, happy kind of asylum.

I replied to your post about sound. I included references to sound in my response and did not mention physics. What does physics have to do with sound?

 

[another_jakhole]

I think the most telling thing is that I got yet another message from a member bowing out of the boards because of...

Nobody cares, let's keep it that way.

He didn't even name the person. Let's keep "not caring"? What in the hell? Uhhhhh ohhhkayyy? What if it were Jordan? Nobody cares?

And once again with the irrelevant comparison. Other videogames only show us what is possible but they are not the goal, the goal is reality, where you can't distinguish a game car from a real car. Other games are nudging that, GT is nowhere close to it. Your constant reference to one specific game is a red herring and does nothing to further the discussion on GT sound. You really need to let that go.

That had all to do with the sounds? You only ended that paragraph referring to sounds, but this isn't a "sound thread".

Now,... let's get it on! (not with me. it's just something people say when there's going to be a fight)

 

[TokoTurismo]

i don't understand the hostility towards tenacious. He provides valid arguments and has a positive light in this otherwise drab forum. Perhaps a couple threads celebrating the good things GT6 is bringing to the table would fix the atmosphere in here.

Agreed. 👍 I really like T.D.'s posts, they always pump me up with joy and excitement. It does take me down when his posts gets knocked down by others though.

I wish there was at least some positives sayings, I mean, PD just removed experience points and A/B Spec is back to being GT4 style again. I really think PD is try guys, give them a little chance yes?

 

[Cosbuster]

I wish there was at least some positives sayings, I mean, PD just removed experience points and A/B Spec is back to being GT4 style again. I really think PD is try guys, give them a little chance yes?

These are very nice changes but I find it hard to be happy about them in their own right when we know next to nothing about the career structure of the game. If it turns out great, they'll enhance it further but if they pull another GT5 A-spec, I don't think they'll mean much.

 

[TokoTurismo]

These are very nice changes but I find it hard to be happy about them in their own right when we know next to nothing about the career structure of the game. If it turns out great, they'll enhance it further but if they pull another GT5 A-spec, I don't think they'll mean much.

Yeah, career mode is the next thing I want to see too. Hope it turns out good.

 

[Pupik]

He didn't even name the person. Let's keep "not caring"? What in the hell? Uhhhhh ohhhkayyy? What if it were Jordan?

It's called a Strawman Argument, never mind calling out other members is akin to turning this into World Wrestling Federation.

Topic, please. Or if you prefer, topic..._jackhole.

 

[Samus]

TenD's problem is he still thinks comparing to another game is a valid way to rebut a point. "X game is just as bad" doesn't work. Could you imagine Kaz doing that? "Yes our sounds and AI are not great but have you seen the competition? Just as bad. Next question".

No, he wouldn't. If someone has a negative point against the game you can make a rebuttal to that point without resorting to "X game is worse so your negative point is nulled".

 

[another_jakhole]

It's called a Strawman Argument, never mind calling out other members is akin to turning this into World Wrestling Federation.

Topic, please. Or if you prefer, topic..._jackhole.

Nope. I'm another_jakhole. You know, like Bon Jovi. Sure, Jon is the frontman, but he isn't the band. It would be insulting if you called them the Jovi's.


You needed to include "another" in another_jakhole. That's all I'm saying. I've had this username since '06 (not on GTP) so I should know how it works.


Soo...

 

[AnAL0G]

TenD's problem is he still thinks comparing to another game is a valid way to rebut a point. "X game is just as bad" doesn't work.

I didn't really take his comment that way. I think he's just saying that you should consider what the rest of the competitive field is offering up before you make demands and push for PD to have something that's above and beyond anything consoles already have at this point.

 

[another_jakhole]

I didn't really take his comment that way. I think he's just saying that you should consider what the rest of the competitive field is offering up before you make demands and push for PD to have something that's above and beyond anything consoles already have at this point.

That's how I see it. Since you said that, I remembered something and that something is...
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8837771#post8837771

It isn't intended to be flame bait at all, and please, we really need to not be making this Forza vs GT thing as serious as it appears (you know what I mean). Compare and contrast and nothing more.

 

[Samus]

So because X product isn't doing something it's not fair to ask Y company to do it? The world wouldn't have moved on very far if everyone took that attitude.

 

[AnAL0G]

So because X product isn't doing something it's not fair to ask Y company to do it? The world wouldn't have moved on very far if everyone took that attitude.

It's fair, but if you want to feel good/satisfied, you need to take into consideration the technology and whether it's actually possible with what's currently available. Is it fair to ask a machine with only 256MB RAM to perform above those limitations? Sure, but it isn't likely to happen without some sacrifices. The main thing I gather from Tenacious D is appreciating what we have, despite its imperfections and/or failures.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I didn't really take his comment that way. I think he's just saying that you should consider what the rest of the competitive field is offering up before you make demands and push for PD to have something that's above and beyond anything consoles already have at this point.

All you've done is reword his point, that it's fair to compare to other games as if that refutes a point being made about this game. If your girlfriend was ugly but your buddy's girlfriend was even uglier, that doesn't make your girlfriend suddenly pretty, she's still ugly. Comparing her to someone else's girlfriend is irrelevant.

It's fair, but if you want to feel good/satisfied, you need to take into consideration the technology and whether it's actually possible with what's currently available. Is it fair to ask a machine with only 256MB RAM to perform above those limitations? Sure, but it isn't likely to happen without some sacrifices. The main thing I gather from Tenacious D is appreciating what we have, despite its imperfections and/or failures.

Fair enough, it may not be technically possible, however, Kaz has said that it is technically possible on PS3, that they are working on it, and it might make it into GT6 through an update, so according to Kaz himself, hardware is not the limiting factor. That's not to say that sounds can be an exact representation of reality on the PS3 platform, but Kaz says they can better. So is Kaz lying or what?

As far as appreciating what you have despite it's imperfections and failures I still love the game in spite of it's flaws but why would I settle for what I perceive to be less than their best effort? I'm a consumer and this is a consumer product. I don't go out and buy any other product and just "appreciate what I have despite it's imperfections and failures", why would I do that for this product?

 

[another_jakhole]

So because X product isn't doing something it's not fair to ask Y company to do it? The world wouldn't have moved on very far if everyone took that attitude.

How, or why, did you figure that to be what anyone was saying?

What was your response to, specifically?

Forza has its superpowers such as GT has its own ultra-superpowers . I honestly don't understand how you believe any one of us would have thought what you're implying someone said. WHO? I don't see it.

All you've done is reword his point, that it's fair to compare to other games as if that refutes a point being made about this game. If your girlfriend was ugly but your buddy's girlfriend was even uglier, that doesn't make your girlfriend suddenly pretty, she's still ugly. Comparing her to someone else's girlfriend is irrelevant.

This is awesome. It's so stupid, I might just break my keyboard. I'm not calling you stupid, but what in the hell was that? Don't bring anyone's gf/bf into this.

 

[Johnnypenso]

This is awesome. It's so stupid, I might just break my keyboard. I'm not calling you stupid, but what in the hell was that? Don't bring anyone's gf/bf into this.

You have to admit it's a great analogy!!!

 

[another_jakhole]

You have to admit it's a great analogy!!!

First of all, I thought it was funny in the most ridiculous 🤬 way possible, but and then what the....?

Secondly, no one is saying anything that relates to that, analogy, is what you call it?

Either Samus misunderstood because he's sleepy or I'm in for it when he wakes up. But I REALLY don't think any tricks were involved. It all just happened and maybe something got caught in the mix, ya know? Yeaaaaa.... :/ ?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

To be fair, we don't know if they recorded the sound of the Z4. It's not uncommon for developers to wait with adding all the "real" sounds until just before the game goes Gold. Let me give an example. I was involved in the beta of a game called Wargame: Airland Battle. It used generic and boring sound effects as placeholders, and then just two weeks before the full game released, almost every single sound effect was changed into their own unique sounds.

If you're about to release a sequel to a game that is part of a series that's been criticized for years for poor sounds, why would you not use your supposed newer, better recorded sounds as soon as you could?

Let me put it this way. Why would PD bother with adding the "real" sounds to their demo builds, if the people who are going to play them at the conferences can't hear the sound anyway?

Because the noise on a conference floor isn't always going to be there; someone just mentioned that their local game store has some GT6 pods to play, as an example.

In any case, I think it's far to early to talk about the sound in GT6 until PD shows us their alleged new way of recording sound. Might be good. Might not.

"Might" is going to be the fall-back term for a long time, though. If the new sounds aren't in the game when it ships? "Too early to judge, Kaz said there might be a sound update".

I'll judge things on how they are when I experience them, not on some wishful thinking projection of what they might be.

Maybe not perfection, but for the best-selling game in the "sim racing" genre (which most likely comes with things like the best car manufacturer relations, the biggest budgets, and the best production team) I believe everyone is right to expect iterative improvements in every version, and this time around significantly so.

Which was the point of the rest of that sentence of mine

But we can't discuss it.

No matter how many times you state something, if it's wrong, it will continue to be wrong.

So, still wrong.

He provides valid arguments

Except when he doesn't. Whether it's sourcing some imaginary website that only he himself has seen (and the internet has no trace of), misquoting others to further his own points - which has even extended to attributing an insult to a member of staff when it was never said - or, as this very thread shows, veering wildly off-topic when questioned about something, it happens pretty often. Can he provide some valid arguments on things? Absolutely. If none of those things come up first.

I mean, which game was it that fooled people into thinking they were watching eacing footage?

Lots, actually 👍

And I'm not the only one who likes the physics in GT5. A number of racing sim and real life racers have remarked about how well GT5 renders its reality. Sure, most people will debate issues that aren't realistic, but we evidently don't hit those speed bumps. Taste, feel and all that can be very different for different folk, clearly.

Taste and feel = opinions. Which are fine and dandy, and I'd never hold that against someone if they prefer GT5 on the basis of taste and feel. But those two things are quite a bit different from tests to simulate realism, which is possibly the biggest misconception that leads to the extended discussions of GT vs other games' physics. People simply liking GT5 more than other games doesn't make the physics more realistic, and there have been some very well-documented tests that show the problems with GT5's physics engine. If people want to overlook them, that's fine.

Well, it's not like GT6 hasn't already improved considerably. Very few of us have experienced the tire model that Slipztreme and Terronium have at the latest demo pods, and they sound pretty enthusia'd.

SlipZtrEm. It's not particularly hard.

 

[Tornado]

I wish there was at least some positives sayings, I mean, PD just removed experience points and A/B Spec is back to being GT4 style again.

And plenty of people were stating when that was announced how happy they were at the information.



That still doesn't mean the oft-repeated "but but but but but Forza does this wrong" response counts as having any meaning towards points being made just so there is someone saying something positive for positivity's sake.

 

[Imari]

Agreed. 👍 I really like T.D.'s posts, they always pump me up with joy and excitement. It does take me down when his posts gets knocked down by others though.

I wish there was at least some positives sayings, I mean, PD just removed experience points and A/B Spec is back to being GT4 style again. I really think PD is try guys, give them a little chance yes?

When the positive things are "they're going back to the way things were in 2004", I don't think that's something to jump up and down about.

 

[gtracedriver1]

^^

Going back to something that people liked, is obviously good.


On internet you will find lots of people complaining and bitching. That is normal. Especially for a franchise like GT which is most popular as far racing games goes.

I think objective criticism is good for PD. They need to be improving all the time and not be complacent. I also think competition is important but they sadly do not rate their competition much. I hope they are seeing Project cars though.

 

[TokoTurismo]

And plenty of people were stating when that was announced how happy they were at the information.

That still doesn't mean the oft-repeated "but but but but but Forza does this wrong" response counts as having any meaning towards points being made just so there is someone saying something positive for positivity's sake.

I do agree that taking smack about Forza to gain positive sayings isn't good, but is bad and really gives you a bad image of a "you know what".

When the positive things are "they're going back to the way things were in 2004", I don't think that's something to jump up and down about.

Well not like that, but having similar things people liked about GT4, such as A&B Specs not being separated like in GT5, and not having any levels locking everything down.

On internet you will find lots of people complaining and bitching. That is normal. Especially for a franchise like GT which is most popular as far racing games goes.

I think objective criticism is good for PD. They need to be improving all the time and not be complacent. I also think competition is important but they sadly do not rate their competition much. I hope they are seeing Project cars though.

Agreed.

 

[Tenacious D]

TenD's problem is he still thinks comparing to another game is a valid way to rebut a point. "X game is just as bad" doesn't work.

Why not?

I mean, seriously. Go through all the racing games you'd consider worth making a comparison to. List the cars, their manufacturers, if they're race cars, state so, and then compare the lists with GT5's.

Is that an irrelevant way to base the comparison? If it is, why? Explain. I'm all eyes.

Fair enough, (better sounds) may not be technically possible, however, Kaz has said that it is technically possible on PS3, that they are working on it, and it might make it into GT6 through an update, so according to Kaz himself, hardware is not the limiting factor. That's not to say that sounds can be an exact representation of reality on the PS3 platform, but Kaz says they can better. So is Kaz lying or what?

I think you know that you're slanting the argument just a scouche.

First of all, a good number of you guys post as if the team hasn't done anything about the sounds all this time. I assure you that the sounds have changed not just from the PS1 era, but from GT5 spec 1 to Spec 2.




Red Rock Valley! Check out the awesome engine and tire sounds.



So this is what I take issue with, which I'll go into in more length below. But the sound issues have been discussed at fantastic length by Griffith500, chippy and others who are familiar with the subject to one length or other. And again, no one is saying that the sounds can't be improved, but acting as if PD haven't done squat about them for three years isn't helping your guys' cause any.

I mean, which game was it that fooled people into thinking they were watching (r)acing footage?

Lots, actually 👍

Okay, I'll bite. It's spring 2008. What games are these? Google isn't telling me anything but Prologue. And here, supposedly, I'm the ding dong that just tosses out glib answerless responses all the time. 👍

In fact, I'm hard pressed to remember any time that someone is challenged to answer my contentions by someone else, or to be pointed out that they say negative things about Gran Turismo which frankly are if not lies, are extremely exaggerated, such as "the sounds in GT5 are the same old rotten sounds as ever." Or, "the sounds in GT6 are the same old rotten sounds as ever." Ya know, a game that hasn't even come out yet, that they have obviously not played, have not experienced, have NO idea whatsoever the state will be. And yet they make definite statements about The Game. Not "I hope the sounds won't be like this at release," but "GT6 has sucky sounds." Pardon me, but this isn't even rational or worth taking seriously.

This is why I'm both very positive and rather rebellious, because I contend that if a site is dedicated to a certain something, then that site should be a place in which that certain something is cast in a positive light. That members can count on like minded folk who want to celebrate that something, in a community that's encouraging about that something. That posts in the forum are about cool things about that something. Especially when a new version of that something is very near to release.

Maybe I'm stupid, but I'd rather be that kind of stupid than the dour pessimistic grinches who get cranky when that something which is celebrated and spoken of positively is Gran Turismo. On a Gran Turismo board no less.

Pupik poo-poos remarks that people are finding this place too hostile to even be around. Frankly, if I ran the board I'd want to know why. Why is it just fine that people are put in the position to defend themselves and the game they like all the time, especially when many of the attacks aren't, as gtracedriver1 posts, objective? Accurate? Balanced? Something is very wrong here.

There are very few developers I care about or respect. Hideo Kojima and Kojima Productions. The yahoos at Naughty Dog and Insomniac Games, even though Insomniac have been using some of my ideas in the Ratchet & Clank series without so much as a 👍 . Oh well, I love those guys and the series they make, because they seem like me. A bunch of grown up kids who love having fun recreating the universe in their own special way.

And yes, I dig the heck out of and respect Kazunori Yamauchi and Polyphony Digital. Say what you will about the man, the team and the game they make, but he has impacted the world in ways very few people have or ever will. And GT5 has something serious going for it, when another million people will buy new copies since December when millions of used ones are floating around. And THREE YEARS of bad press and net chatter are hanging like cobwebs around it. Another million people brush it all off and don't care. People argue that sales don't have anything to do with the quality of a game. I say, refute this, when the diehard fans have likely bought their copies two years ago.

The real contributors and critics aren't the DAMN IT TO HELL types, but the ones who have points to make that anyone would want to read. Those posts aren't so easy to find anymore. And that's sad for a site that's here for the express purpose to bring together fans to celebrate this game. It shouldn't be that way. This isn't NeoGAF.