Westfield XTR2/Radical XR3/Ariel Atom 2

[Famine]

Ariel Atom beat by a Super 7? Ouch.

Remember that there's another official Atom on top of that (300) and the sort-of-one-off twincharged too.

The Caterham CSR260 is as good as you get on a Seven (except mayber the Tiger Z100).

Still, that's some pretty fast times right there. I'm most impressed by the Sagaris and Noble, which run with pretty much normal interiors, rather than the stripped-out cars at the very top...

 

[Metar]

The Caterham CSR260 is as good as you get on a Seven (except mayber the Tiger Z100).

Still, that's some pretty fast times right there. I'm most impressed by the Sagaris and Noble, which run with pretty much normal interiors, rather than the stripped-out cars at the very top...

But, the Westfield was still more than a second quicker around the track...

The Noble is the real winner - it's a more useable car, which also set a remarkably good time in the 2001 Autocar 0-100-0 tests, where it was one of the grippiest and quickest-to-accellerate cars.

OK here we go some times from Anglesey

*snip*

Regards

Scaff

Ha! A point to prove, the Westfield Sport 2000S is one of the fastest road-legal cars. Another step towards starting to save for a Westfield, even a low-power one.

 

[Dave A]

Ariel Atom beat by a Super 7? Ouch.

I certainly would not be saying ouch to that, the CSR is one hell of a beat on a track, it's faster than a Koenigsegg CCX, Ferrari Enzo and Pagani Zonda F round the topGear track and they arn't slow even compared to many track day cars. That's not a car to be remotely ashamed of being beaten by. But very proud if you beat it.

 

[Tornado]

I certainly would not be saying ouch to that, the CSR is one hell of a beat on a track, it's faster than a Koenigsegg CCX, Ferrari Enzo and Pagani Zonda F round the topGear track and they arn't slow even compared to many track day cars. That's not a car to be remotely ashamed of being beaten by. But very proud if you beat it.

I realise that. But it is still a 50 year old design that has been only mildly modified in that time. Powerful and lightweight or not, the Caterham still has all the aerodynamic efficiency of a brick, without even producing downforce or negating lift. The Atom 245 has only slightly less BHP while weighing 100 pounds or so less and having a front and rear spoiler. The only large advantage I can see from the Caterham is that it has 30mm thicker rear tires and 15 more BHP.

 

[YSSMAN]

...I'd give the old Seven more credit there, but there are plenty of folks who don't care for having decidedly old-school designs tearing up these decisively new school designs. There is a big difference between proven performance and one that you are continuing to work on, as computers can only show you so much.

However I did notice that the Ultima is missing from the list. Lets go Chevy power!

 

[Scaff]

I realise that. But it is still a 50 year old design that has been only mildly modified in that time. Powerful and lightweight or not, the Caterham still has all the aerodynamic efficiency of a brick, without even producing downforce or negating lift. The Atom 245 has only slightly less BHP while weighing 100 pounds or so less and having a front and rear spoiler. The only large advantage I can see from the Caterham is that it has 30mm thicker rear tires and 15 more BHP.

While its most certainly true that the CRS is not exactly aerodynamically brilliant, its not true to say that the car has only been mildly modified in its life cycle (not that the external appearance gives you many clues), under the skin the CRS was a major redesign of the chassis and in particular the suspension set-up.

I think the interesting thing to keep in mind (and it is mentioned on the DVD) is that the CRS 260 is a distinctly road based Caterham, with a set-up geared towards understeer on the limit (the opposite of the Atom and Westfield). When they come out with the more track focused versions the times should be quite stunning.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Metar]

I think the interesting thing to keep in mind (and it is mentioned on the DVD) is that the CRS 260 is a distinctly road based Caterham, with a set-up geared towards understeer on the limit (the opposite of the Atom and Westfield). When they come out with the more track focused versions the times should be quite stunning.

Regards

Scaff

The Westfield 2000S Sport is just like the Caterham CSR260 - both are more road-biased. The XTR2 is the trackcar...

 

[Scaff]

The Westfield 2000S Sport is just like the Caterham CSR260 - both are more road-biased. The XTR2 is the trackcar...

I'm quoting (indirectly) from the DVD containing the on-board footage of both cars and the comments of the Evo team that drove them, while both the cars in question are more road cars than strictly track-only cars, the suspension set-ups are very different on them. The 2000s does have a much more track focused set-up, its doesn't understeer on the limit, rather it settles almost directly into oversteer. The Caterham can be clearly seen (from the footage) to understeer initially on the limit and needs provoking into oversteer (and the Atom just wants to oversteer all the time - very sideways).

Just because they are both road-biased does not mean the set-ups are the same, the drivers of both cars quite clearly say that the default set-up on the Westfield better suits the track and also that the 2000s is the best Westfield they have ever driven. That said they also comment on how the more 'road friendly' set-up of the CSR is slowing it down, particularly on a track as tight and twisty as Anglesey.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Scaff]

OK some more times to add to the mix here.

Its Evo's 100th issue and they have a number of very good articles for it, one of which is a lap time shoot out at Bedford Autodrome's West Circuit. The results are as follows.

1st - Radical SR3 1300 (366bhp/ton) - 1'17.10

2nd - Caterham R500 Evo (552bhp/ton) - 1'19.00

=3rd - Ariel Atom 300 (554bhp/ton) - 1'19.60

=3rd - Caterham CSR 260 (460bhp/ton) - 1'19.60

5th - Dax Rush MC (586bhp/ton) - 1'19.70

6th - Porsche Carrera GT (445bhp/ton) - 1'20.20

7th - McLaren F1 (559bhp/ton) - 1'21.20

8th - Ferrari Enzo (484bhp/ton) - 1'21.30

9th - Litchfield Type-25 (304bhp/ton) - 1'22.25

10th - Lotus Exige S (237bhp/ton) - 1'22.40

11th - Ford GT (353bhp/ton) - 1'22.75


All laps conducted on the same day with driver and passenger, and in cold dry conditions.

Videos can be found here (just listen to the Dax rush - sounds totally insane)
http://www.evo.co.uk/videos/trackdayvideos/204327/ten_fastest.html


Regards

Scaff

 

[Metar]

2nd - Caterham R500 Evo (552bhp/ton) - 1'19.00

This Caterham R500 Evo, is it that track-tuned version of the CSR260?

And the Radical sounds fishy... I know that new spoiler is supposed to create 2.5 times the downforce, but with one of the worst PWRs, how could it win?

 

[Scaff]

This Caterham R500 Evo, is it that track-tuned version of the CSR260?

And the Radical sounds fishy... I know that new spoiler is supposed to create 2.5 times the downforce, but with one of the worst PWRs, how could it win?

The R500 Evo was the final version of the last generation Caterham Seven, the CSR is the first of the new generation of 7's. Despite looking very similar the chassis and suspension have both undergone major changes. On top of that the CSR is closer to the older widebody models of the 7.


As far as the Radical goes, nothing fishy about it at all, these are cars that use full body aerodynamics to generate true downforce (rather than simply reduce lift as most road cars aim to do) while retaining a decently low drag CF. An SR3 is capable of generating almost 3g of lateral acceleration using road tyres (and only true downforce is going to give you that).

Having driven a wide range of fast road cars (including a number of Caterham's and other 7 clones) and having passenger'd in an SR3 these things are in a totally different class.

More info can be found here

http://www.radicalextremesportscars.com/range/sr3/sr3.php

Regards

Scaff

 

[Metar]

The R500 Evo was the final version of the last generation Caterham Seven, the CSR is the first of the new generation of 7's. Despite looking very similar the chassis and suspension have both undergone major changes. On top of that the CSR is closer to the older widebody models of the 7.


As far as the Radical goes, nothing fishy about it at all, these are cars that use full body aerodynamics to generate true downforce (rather than simply reduce lift as most road cars aim to do) while retaining a decently low drag CF. An SR3 is capable of generating almost 3g of lateral acceleration using road tyres (and only true downforce is going to give you that).

Having driven a wide range of fast road cars (including a number of Caterham's and other 7 clones) and having passenger'd in an SR3 these things are in a totally different class.

More info can be found here

http://www.radicalextremesportscars.com/range/sr3/sr3.php

Regards

Scaff

And the R500 beat the CSR because?
And I noticed in front-up pictures that the CSR is much wider than the Superlights and Classic models...

 

[Scaff]

And the R500 beat the CSR because?

2nd - Caterham R500 Evo (552bhp/ton) - 1'19.00

=3rd - Caterham CSR 260 (460bhp/ton) - 1'19.60

Well for a start the Evo has an advantage of around 90bhp/ton, also the R500 Evo was designed to be the top track model of its range, the CSR 260 is still more road biased. Given that the difference in lap time of 0.60 is testament to the work done on the CSR in the chassis and suspension.

And I noticed in front-up pictures that the CSR is much wider than the Superlights and Classic models...

As I said its closer to the older ranges wide-body 'SV' models

http://www.caterham.co.uk/downloads/Brochure2006.pdf

Regards

Scaff

 

[Dave A]

EDIT: I didn't realise there was another page , replaied to the last post of the last page. But Scaff answered it better anyway. the Radical is simply all round a far more track focused car than any of the others there, from the aerodynamics to the chassis setup.

 

[Arkangel]

Hey Famine, I know your brother has an Ariel Atom and I wanted to ask a few questions. I would assume he uses it as a "joy toy" and not a daily driver, but is it capable of being driven daily? Also, is it at all comfortable?

 

[Famine]

Hey Famine, I know your brother has an Ariel Atom and I wanted to ask a few questions. I would assume he uses it as a "joy toy" and not a daily driver, but is it capable of being driven daily? Also, is it at all comfortable?

He does use it as a daily driver...

The seats are comfortable (though I believe the US one is different in that it has Recaros), but the ride certainly isn't unless the road is totally smooth.

 

[kikie]

I'd imagine the twincharged Atom 2...

Is this one stock available?? (don't know if this is proper English but you know what I mean).

 

[Famine]

I believe Ariel build them to order - they've made two.

 

[hawkeye122]

So, I hate to bring this thread back up, but is it legal to register a Radical as a kit car, in Nevada?