"What’s inside Newey and Vettel’s magic hat?" by Giancarlo Minardi

[DK]

It's like hearing an acquaintance accuse you of cheating at FIFA because you learned how to sprint.

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

Thing is fans, or in this case non-fans, will believe what they want to believe. If ten people report that they think it's legal they'll ignore it, if there are a couple of articles that suggest they're cheating that's the one they'll believe. Not much you can do about that.

Believe me, I know. People always believe what they want to believe. Look at any run of the mill conspiracy theory, dealers choice: every one of them has a person or persons who truly believe them, no matter what amount of mental gymnastics or ridiculous coincidence/happenstance would be required for that to be the case. But still, there's people out there for whom those things are as true as the sun coming up in the morning.

I try not to bother myself with getting worked up about it, but in this case seeing the media feeding the mob with such reckless disregard for facts is just irritating. Anyone can pontificate about how there's "something weird" or how it "sounds wrong" but unless there's some evidence to back it up, why is it being reported?

Silly me, thinking that the news is a business of facts.

Even when teams (not just Red Bull) have been cleared of wrongdoing in the past that isn't enough for some fans, they still believe the team were cheating. It's just how it is.

Goes back to what I said earlier. Even if evidence comes out that 100% clears RBR of any wrongdoing here (which I doubt will happen, not because I think they're cheating but more because I doubt there will ever be a formal investigation, and if there is, the findings will be opaque at best) people will still say that Vettel only won because he was cheating, or because of the car, or whatever. Just like there's still people who say that the Earth is flat.




EDIT:

It's like hearing an acquaintance accuse you of cheating at FIFA because you learned how to sprint.

 

[JGreens]

It's like hearing an acquaintance accuse you of cheating at FIFA because you learned how to sprint.

Surely it's more like PES and deliberately picking Adriano. Or playing as Barcelona online...

 

[niky]

Gary Anderson had a good column about this.

I mean, not that anyone cares. Cheating or traction control is way more interesting, so of course that's the way that the media and internet speculation is going, regardless of actual evidence. Cause, you know, stuff like that isn't important. Never let the truth stand in the way of a good story.

Alonso's stint at Renault was exactly the same. The car required an unusual style to maximize its advantages, and Alonso adapted his driving to suit it. I think in the same situation Alonso would match Vettel. Hamilton, not sure, but Hamilton has shown an ability to eke out a lot of extra pace from an unwieldy car, so maybe.

Ferrari built their cars perfectly to the rule specs for the first half of the season. Which is why they were so pissed when the tire rules were changed. There is apparently no way for them to adapt to these new specs.

 

[Third Reign]

Surely it's more like PES and deliberately picking Adriano. Or playing as Barcelona online...

If there is something to be gained other than "fun", say huge amounts of money, I sure as hell would also use the team and players that would guarantee me the best results.

Ask if any top F1 driver is willing to race in the Red Bull, and in an honest situation (as in one where they do not get framed by PR) they would say yes. Race drivers want to win races, and to do so they require the sharpest tools. currently the sharpest tool is the Red Bull, and sitting at its wheel is a driver who can take the car to its limits.

All this comparing driver skill is stupid nonsense. There is no way one can prove assumptions that claim Hamilton is better than Alonso, and Vettel is only good because the car, etc. The only statements you can make is on whats seen on the track.
Here are a few observations from the last races:
-Vettel and Alonso are capable of getting the maximum out of their respective car. The Red Bull has a larger capacity than the Ferrari.
-Hamilton drives quick but constantly taking the car over its limits, he has the largest tyre problems of all top drivers.
-Rosberg manages his car better than Hamilton, but like Weber is currently not favored by Fortuna
-Kimi can create situations that lead to him having an overtaking possibility, which he capitalizes on.
-Button is a wizard on tyre management, but struggles with keeping them in optimal temperature ranges.
-Hülkenberg drives extremely well under pressure and does not fold, he drives with great foresight.

All these observations are taken from the last two races, In this short compilation I make Hamilton look the worst because he is constantly overdriving his car. Does that place him as last on my list? Definitely not since he still puts up a performance. Alonso and Vettel seem like they are on top of my list, but how would I rank their ability compared to Hamilton? I cant, I respect them all for being top drivers. I do admit that Alonso does not have my sympathies.

As for cheating accusations: The Red Bull goes through FIA checks before and after every race. As long as it passes these checks the car is legal, no matter how far certain gray areas in the rules book are exploited.

 

[The Outlaw]

Gary Anderson had a good column about this.

I mean, not that anyone cares. Cheating or traction control is way more interesting, so of course that's the way that the media and internet speculation is going, regardless of actual evidence. Cause, you know, stuff like that isn't important. Never let the truth stand in the way of a good story.

Amen to that sarcasm

But seriously, I get a kick out of some of these random sources/armchair experts (whether it be on twitter, blogs, etc.) that continually try to smooth people over, attempting to pass their speculation off as fact (however intriguing it might be). The average reader likely turns a blind eye to the fact that such claims are still completely unproven/unfounded at the end of the day.

I mean if Red Bull were cheating (or even using traction control), don't you think we would be hearing a lot more fuss from the competing teams (isn't that common logic?), rather than a bunch of far fetched claims from various sources trying to sell a story and be the first to pontentially capatilize on what they claim as "inside infromation".

Even Gary Anderson (who should be a lot more credible than most these sources), has been wrong on numerous occassions, mainly when it comes to trying to analyze a flaw of a car & why it may not be working...but I think the article you posted is pretty level headed, and not one of these typical sensantionalist articles that we've seen of late, trying to overcomplicate the situation.

 

[Dotini]

Vettel has admitted, even bragged, on several occasions his team is using secret traction control. This is not "proof", but it is persuasive.

That other teams are not complaining can only mean that they consider it "legal", and intend to implement their versions of it shortly. Pity those without the bucks to develop it. Perhaps the 107% rule will prevent them from exclusion.

I hope it is either banned, or successfully adopted by the other major teams. If Vettel should win every race from now until he and Newey retires, it would be very boring, and some of the major manufacturers, sponsors, promoters and viewers might move to some other more competitive series like NASCAR. All that booing cannot be helpful to the sport.

 

[Akmuq]

It's an amazing masterclass in car design, and while I'd love it to be banned just so there is better competition, it has to be admired what has been done here. Would anyone say Audi cheated with the Quatro rally car? This isn't that different...

Saying Vettel is a cheater? What basis is that? Vettel didn't design the car, and while Newey exploited a loophole, every other team does the same. Designing a car directly to the rule-book leads to designing a Marussia, and also, a lack of innovation and idea.

 

[Ardius]

Vettel has admitted, even bragged, on several occasions his team is using secret traction control. This is not "proof", but it is persuasive.

Vettel comes across as poking fun more than anything. I don't really think there is much more to read into it than that.

 

[Dotini]

Designing a car directly to the rule-book leads to designing a Marussia, and also, a lack of innovation and idea.

If a NASCAR team showed the dominance displayed by Vettel and Newey, they would be taken to the hauler and in the morning you'd see 100 lbs of lead bolted to his car. NASCAR will not permit anyone to spoil their show. And neither will Bernie. Watch and see!

 

[Alex.]

Vettel has admitted, even bragged, on several occasions his team is using secret traction control. This is not "proof", but it is persuasive.

Please provide examples in which he wasn't taking the piss.

 

[Ardius]

If a NASCAR team showed the dominance displayed by Vettel and Newey, they would be taken to the hauler and in the morning you'd see 100 lbs of lead bolted to his car. NASCAR will not permit anyone to spoil their show. And neither will Bernie. Watch and see!

Bernie seemed pretty happy to let it roll 2002-2004....Bernie doesn't make the rules anyway...why does his name always come up in these discussions?

I'm not even going to touch the whole NASCAR debate - I don't watch it precisely because its so harshly limited in how large an advantage anyone can gain. Comparing apples and oranges really there.

 

[The Outlaw]

Vettel comes across as poking fun more than anything. I don't really think there is much more to read into it than that.

+1 You beat me to it

Watch the first 30 seconds or so of this clip. Vettel pokes fun regarding the use of traction control.



I can't believe how seriously the Jalopnik article/link took his words as some type of solid evidence

 

[Dotini]

Please provide examples in which he wasn't taking the piss.

If by taking the piss, you mean not taunting his competition, unfortunately there are none. It could be professional suicide for him to spill such beans!

However, this is what the mainstream media were reporting prior to Korea. I have no idea of new developments since then. Perhaps others could check their industry sources.

http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/10/03/motor-racing-prix-redbull-vettel-idINDEE99209R20131003
Vettel, who could wrap up his fourth successive title this month, simply smiled on Thursday when asked whether he would be as dominant in Korea as in Singapore.

"Well, since traction control will not matter so much, we may struggle a little bit more," he told reporters with heavy emphasis.

SUSPICIOUS MINDS

Asked in a later question about Red Bull's 2014 car, the 26-year-old returned to the theme. "There's elements of this year's car going in to next year's...things like traction control will obviously be..." he grinned.

"We are pretty proud of the system we have because other people will never figure out how we've done it," added Vettel.



You be the judge.

 

[Akmuq]

That interview was shown on BBC and you can quite clearly see he was having a laugh, not one bit serious at all.

 

[The Outlaw]

Typical media taking someones words and twisting it to their liking 👎 Beware of what you read lol

 

[Dotini]

So far the case is circumstantial:

- Total dominance on the race track

- "grinding" sounds unique to his car (anyone with ears can hear) accelerating out of slow bumpy corners, similar to old-fashioned cars with known TC.

- multiple jokes and teasing admissions it is true (and there is nothing anyone can do about it since it is supposedly technically legal)

- some persuasive technical explanations, linked in posts #113 and 114 above.

Short of impounding and inspecting the car, it seems we are at an impasse.

 

[Spurgy 777]

So far the case is circumstantial:

- Total dominance on the race track

- "grinding" sounds unique to his car (anyone with ears can hear) accelerating out of slow bumpy corners, similar to old-fashioned cars with known TC.

- multiple jokes and teasing admissions it is true (and there is nothing anyone can do about it since it is supposedly technically legal)

- some persuasive technical explanations, linked in posts #113 and 114 above.

Short of impounding and inspecting the car, it seems we are at an impasse.

Actually, my link was explaining how Red Bull could be improving traction WITHOUT using traction control but instead just lowering torque out of the corners using a method that has been around for over a decade (4 cylinder mode). It also happens to explain all the other points you made, including the weird engine sound, so you clearly just read what you wanted to read.

 

[The Outlaw]

And we still have yet to hear (as far as I'm aware) of any complaints from the teams (who should be the most credible sources, if the accusations are true)...other than Hamilton (at Korea), who is quite known for saying off the wall stuff lol. I wonder if Hamilton thinks Sauber were using TCS as well, after his run in with Hulkenburg at Korea and witnessing the Saubers superb tractions out of turn 1/2



I like Alonso's view regarding the issue

 

[Samus]

If by taking the piss, you mean not taunting his competition, unfortunately there are none. It could be professional suicide for him to spill such beans!

However, this is what the mainstream media were reporting prior to Korea. I have no idea of new developments since then. Perhaps others could check their industry sources.

http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/10/03/motor-racing-prix-redbull-vettel-idINDEE99209R20131003
Vettel, who could wrap up his fourth successive title this month, simply smiled on Thursday when asked whether he would be as dominant in Korea as in Singapore.

"Well, since traction control will not matter so much, we may struggle a little bit more," he told reporters with heavy emphasis.

SUSPICIOUS MINDS

Asked in a later question about Red Bull's 2014 car, the 26-year-old returned to the theme. "There's elements of this year's car going in to next year's...things like traction control will obviously be..." he grinned.

"We are pretty proud of the system we have because other people will never figure out how we've done it," added Vettel.



You be the judge.

Oh come on, he's clearly joking and playing up to the suggestions.

 

[Pupik]

And yet, not a single team has brought about allegations of Red Bull cheating. None.

This, in a sport that has had numerous occasions of teams ratting each other out, or even the FIA disqualifying those who violated the rules from either infinitesimal degrees to the patently obvious.

 

[Samus]

Indeed, I'm sure the other teams (or at least the top end) know what they're doing, they're not going to publicly state exactly what it is for obvious reasons though. They can't be sure what other teams know and saying "Oh yeah, Red Bull are doing X, they precisely do it by.....". That's just giving instructions to other teams.

The fact no fuss has been kicked up is enough evidence for me it's legal though.

 

[Alex.]

But it is something. That's what is interesting to me. I'm absolutely dying to find out what they've got, because although many ideas are being thrown around, only a handful of people actually know for sure and I don't count Mark Webber as one of them.

 

[Pupik]

Indeed, I'm sure the other teams (or at least the top end) know what they're doing, they're not going to publicly state exactly what it is for obvious reasons though.

I don't think they're being coy, they either have nothing to go on nor any idea nor any proof.

If they don't bring their findings to the attention of the governing body soon enough, the FIA will do absolutely nothing.

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

Is it a blown diffuser?

VS


You can hear that racket sound from the blown diffuser in the first video, and then only on Vettel's car in Singapore.

 

[Spurgy 777]

How is the slight noise from Vettel's car, which sounds like normal levels of noise from a down-shifting F1 car, even comparable to the noises coming from the cars in the Monza video, which IMO are a lot louder?

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

Listen to the rough noise during braking. The "Brrrrr" noise.

 

[daan]

Listen to the rough noise during breaking.

You're all wrong there. It is only Webber's car that breaks...

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

and

In the heavy braking zones you can hear the bellowing sound like EBD in the second video but the first video which is the recent race has a more faint sound that seems like EBD. It could be the gearing in general but there is this brrrrwp like noise or whatever, and it could be a different way of implementing EBD in a more shorter window which would still have the benefit to make the faster. However, relying on these two videos isn't enough. I tried to find onboards for Webber's car from the same years and couldn't which would help us gauge as well.

My conclusion (unless shown otherwise) is that this is nothing more than a gearing situation when under heavy brake areas and quick multiple downshifts where the engine is bouncing off the limiter as the car slows down. If the car was allowed to be 20k + as they were built for we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.