"What’s inside Newey and Vettel’s magic hat?" by Giancarlo Minardi

[HKS racer]

Just go and edit the thread title yourself.

Thanks for the tip.

 

[PeterJB]

You're getting a bit ahead of yourself here-how do you know that he will instantly dominate with the new engine next year?

That's why I said if.

More or less they're equal. Having to carry only one tank of fuel is also a tactical challenge, but the Red Bull's aerodynamics as well as the KERS and DRS matches the old F1 in terms of speed.

Yes, and if the rules from 10 years ago were still in place that Red Bull would probably 3-4 seconds faster per lap, as well as the rest of the field mind you.

No offence but those other 5 world champions-even his teammate-aren't showing their 'standards' well this year (and the same can be said for the 2nd half of the season last year), whether or not it's due to the cars they drive or (less likely) their skill is outmatched.

That's their probably if they haven't, and by your logic that means that none of them have been driving at full potential for the past four seasons (Even though I'd say they've all been driving better than they ever have over that time, save for Schumacher).

 

[Samus]

I don't know what happened but you have no right to open a thread with my name and use a thread name like that. I didn't do that. I posted on Singapore thread in it was perfectly on topic since it was about Singapore GP. If you don't like some stuff either delete it or open your own thread and move all the posts there. You shouldn't try to make fun of users creating threads with their account. I wasn't expecting that. What I see here is an overreaction, on a post made by an ex F1 manager Gancarlo Minardi.

Therefore I kindly ask to change thread name or close this one and open a new one, since I didn't open a thread with a name like this.
Thank you.



I have another post:

So they believe it's something legal. Shocker.

 

[HKS racer]

So they believe it's something legal. Shocker.

James Allen believe that, I just posted an article I found. The thing is nobody really know what is legal and what is not since the rules have lot of grey areas. Grey areas can be interpreted in different ways, sometimes FIA declares legal, sometime illegal, sometime they close an eye.

If FIA want to end all this stuff they could bring back exausts where they belong: at the end of the car.

 

[daan]

I don't know what happened but you have no right to open a thread with my name and use a thread name like that. I didn't do that. I posted on Singapore thread in it was perfectly on topic since it was about Singapore GP. If you don't like some stuff either delete it or open your own thread and move all the posts there. You shouldn't try to make fun of users creating threads with their account. I wasn't expecting that. What I see here is an overreaction, on a post made by an ex F1 manager Gancarlo Minardi.

Hello. It wasn't about the Singapore GP. It was a story about how Red Bull are getting the speed that they have, and that concerns all races from this season. The thread was split into a new thread at that point so you have the first post, and I gave it a title that I thought was fitting. My post that I linked to showed that it was me that split the thread and gave it it's title. Don't just over-react at some random admin that happens to wander past.

"Rather than a traction control would appear more likely a sort of ad hoc mapping and legal to recreate discharges blown," said the journalist James Allen.

James Allen can talk a bit of rubbish at times, but I'm sure he didn't say that...

 

[Samus]

Original English:

Rather than traction control, some kind of mapping to blow into the exhaust within the rules is more likely and this all fits with the corner exit work that Red Bull has been carrying out.

 

[gamer111]

http%3A%2F%2Fautosprint.corrieredellosport.it%2F2013%2F09%2F30%2Fsentite-il-rumore-del-motore-di-vettel%2F10584%2F&h=CAQEeqURN&s=1

So guys now you can hear the stange sound yourselfs.

 

[Famine]

I don't know what happened but you have no right to open a thread with my name and use a thread name like that.

Let me stop you there.

I do have the right - and you agreed to it:

GTPlanet expressly reserve our rights under the law to take any other actions we deem necessary, and may remove posts or withdraw membership at any time for any reason.

However, while it's an action I have the right to take, it's not an action I can take - I can't post as any other member.

What actually happened was that your post - and subsequent discussion - were separated out from the thread in which they were originally posted, to better allow the individual issues to be discussed in their own thread rather than being mired in the ass-end of a thread about a now-irrelevant race. You'll notice that the post ID and date is exactly the same as your original post, because it is your original post - it was just moved to its own thread. But then I didn't do that either.

The fact this was done was clearly posted in the originating thread by the moderator who did do it. And, while I didn't perform the action myself, I agree with it.

Quick summary: If you don't know what happened, find out what happened rather than wading in and verbiating about what random other (wrong) members of staff have done (wrongly) that they don't have the right (wrongly) to do.

 

[Inferno251]

Yes, and if the rules from 10 years ago were still in place that Red Bull would probably 3-4 seconds faster per lap, as well as the rest of the field mind you.

I wish the rules were the same as they were 10 years ago-I miss the machines that made me first admire F1 back when I was a kid...

That's their probably if they haven't, and by your logic that means that none of them have been driving at full potential for the past four seasons (Even though I'd say they've all been driving better than they ever have over that time, save for Schumacher).

Well its either one of three possibilities:

1. Vettel is an exceptional driver with incredible talent and demolishes even the best of F1
2. The other experienced drivers and world champions aren't showing their full potential (mind you, I did say that I doubt this)
3. Minardi's and other reporter's claims of RBR cheating/using illegal parts are true and RBR are cheats/frauds (that of course, depends on which driver received these alleged parts-whether it was just Vettel, or just Webber or both)

 

[HKS racer]

Famine I opened the forum and I found a thread "opened by me" called "Redbull are big fat cheaters and other nonsense". That is unrespectful and that's what I was demanding to be modified. Since I can do that by my own, as Alex suggested me, I did that already.


Back on topic, new article:

From an amateur video shot during the Singapore GP you can appreciate the strange exhaust hum of Sebastian Vettel's Red Bull led Giancarlo Minardi and many people working in the paddock to speculate Adrian Newey and his team of engineers have been able to exploit again the effect of the exhaust blowers.

From the video you can also hear the sound of the German's V8 Renault seems to be very different from the rest of the field.



http://f1grandprix.motorionline.com...n-video-con-uno-strano-borbottio-a-singapore/

 

[PeterJB]

Well its either one of three possibilities:

1. Vettel is an exceptional driver with incredible talent and demolishes even the best of F1
2. The other experienced drivers and world champions aren't showing their full potential (mind you, I did say that I doubt this)
3. Minardi's and other reporter's claims of RBR cheating/using illegal parts are true and RBR are cheats/frauds (that of course, depends on which driver received these alleged parts-whether it was just Vettel, or just Webber or both)

I'm going to invoke Occam's Razor and go for the first option.

 

[Famine]

Famine I opened the forum and I found a thread "opened by me" called "Redbull are big fat cheaters and other nonsense". That is unrespectful and that's what I was demanding to be modified.

That's nice. Don't you think it would have been worth reading a bit and finding out why rather than launching into a diatribe in my direction?

Or does being "unrespectful" to me not count?

 

[Inferno251]

I'm going to invoke Occam's Razor and go for the first option.

Fine then...

 

[Third Reign]

From an amateur video shot during the Singapore GP you can appreciate the strange exhaust hum of Sebastian Vettel's Red Bull led Giancarlo Minardi and many people working in the paddock to speculate Adrian Newey and his team of engineers have been able to exploit again the effect of the exhaust blowers.

From the video you can also hear the sound of the German's V8 Renault seems to be very different from the rest of the field.



http://f1grandprix.motorionline.com...n-video-con-uno-strano-borbottio-a-singapore/

It does stutter a bit, but all off throttle. If you listen in closely when Mark's car passes, it also shows the off throttle stutter. If people want to claim there is a TC, stuttering of the engine would occur on throttle.

I don't doubt that the stuttering is upholding the exhaust flow in some way that exploits a gray area in the regulations. But until it is found out what and current checks pass the car, all is fine in my eyes. It is only cheating when you go against set rules. This should not be confused with development in my opinion.

Concerning the thermoplast mentioned a few posts ago, checking any diffuser deformation during the race should be quite simple with all these high resolution cameras running around.

 

[HKS racer]

That's nice. Don't you think it would have been worth reading a bit and finding out why rather than launching into a diatribe in my direction?

Or does being "unrespectful" to me not count?

You are right on this thing, I'll use PM next time. My apologies for asking explaination to the wrong moderator.

 

[Centura]

If Red Bull was doing something illegal, we all know that the other teams would complain. They have done so every chance they got in the past, so why would they not do the same now?

 

[Famine]

The other teams are likely marshalling whatever evidence they have - which is bound to be slim, depending on what method RBR are using (if any) to achieve the effect (if they are).

It does stutter a bit, but all off throttle. If you listen in closely when Mark's car passes, it also shows the off throttle stutter. If people want to claim there is a TC, stuttering of the engine would occur on throttle.

It does. When Vettel puts the hammer down alongside the red Singtel sign, there's a momenary bark followed by a rasp and then the normal engine note. No other car does that. Every car clatters a little before the apex - consistent with KERS harvesting.

It's definitely fileable under "Things to make you go Hmm" rather than a smoking gun though.

Also, have a link.

Quick and dirty translation of engineering to English: Red Bull might have a system which charges the KERS battery on throttle, using torque that would be wasted by wheelspin to instead charge the battery. This might actually be legal - the engine torque isn't limited, which is what the regulations define as traction control, rather it's used by the tyres AND the KERS generators.

 

[Pupik]

I know what's in their hat! Winning.

(Also, not dropping the ball as much as previous years and all the other teams.)

 

[Hun200kmh]

Also, have a link.

the engineering world in any way shape or form related to motorsports is now reading Racecar Engineering ... or looking for that full article.

 

[gagtooth]

Since the mapping ban they have all sounded like that.

 

[niky]

The other teams are likely marshalling whatever evidence they have - which is bound to be slim, depending on what method RBR are using (if any) to achieve the effect (if they are).It does. When Vettel puts the hammer down alongside the red Singtel sign, there's a momenary bark followed by a rasp and then the normal engine note. No other car does that. Every car clatters a little before the apex - consistent with KERS harvesting.

It's definitely fileable under "Things to make you go Hmm" rather than a smoking gun though.

Also, have a link.

Quick and dirty translation of engineering to English: Red Bull might have a system which charges the KERS battery on throttle, using torque that would be wasted by wheelspin to instead charge the battery. This might actually be legal - the engine torque isn't limited, which is what the regulations define as traction control, rather it's used by the tyres AND the KERS generators.

Thought it sounded too smooth to be traditional engine-cut traction control.

Yes, since it doesn't limit torque output or change the relation of pedal input to torque delivery, it shouldn't fall afoul of engine regulation rules.

Still, any device that prevents tires from spinning or which limits torque delivery to the wheels is illegal... as here:

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/technical_regulations/8710/fia.html

No car may be equipped with a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive torque demand by the driver.

If it indeed does compensate for excess torque demand to the drive wheels, then RBR's results so far could get thrown out right quick.

 

[NFSCARBON1]

Thought it sounded too smooth to be traditional engine-cut traction control.

Yes, since it doesn't limit torque output or change the relation of pedal input to torque delivery, it shouldn't fall afoul of engine regulation rules.

Still, any device that prevents tires from spinning or which limits torque delivery to the wheels is illegal... as here:

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/technical_regulations/8710/fia.html


If it indeed does compensate for excess torque demand to the drive wheels, then RBR's results so far could get thrown out right quick.

However KERS is the FIA/Bernie's baby. It wouldn't look good disqualifying a team for effectively getting the most out of an 'eco-friendly' device.
It also begs the question, why doesn't Webber's car do the same?

I'm not the most clued up on the workings of an F1 car, but is it possible that Vettel lets the clutch slip slightly to prevent wheelspin?

 

[SVT Cobra GT]

Horner's denying traction control claims.

http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/1...aims-that-red-bull-are-using-traction-control

 

[Samus]

Fernando Alonso believes Sebastian Vettel car is legal

 

[Wardez]

Great comments from Hamilton:


It's not the driver, it's the car. The MGU hacking that Racecar Engineering proposes definitely falls in line with this phenomenal performance advantage RBR's currently enjoying.

It also explains their troubles with KERS and why no one else seems to have issues, maybe RBR's been doing this for a while and no one's really noticed until it's been refined to the level it's at now (Singapore domination). Kind of like Merc's FRIC suspension system pioneering. It's been a concept for a while, and it was applied since 2010 but not really matured enough to be truly successful until now.

If this is what's giving them the leg up on competition, in theory they should be even more prepared to dominate straight away next year unless the new MGU-H and MGU-K, along with turbo/redesigned power packages, throws a real big wrench in the process. In that case, they may not be so quick straight away.

Really interesting stuff though, this is why I love F1 xD

 

[dsgerbc]

If RB is charging KERS on acceleration out of corners, shouldn't there be some visual confirmation? Broadcasts show them pretty often with KERS charge indicator.
Unless they also spend it during the same acceleration, just when driveline oscillations allow them to put more power down.

 

[Famine]

If RB is charging KERS on acceleration out of corners, shouldn't there be some visual confirmation?

No.

The on-screen indicator represents the amount of charge remaining that lap from the allotted 8 seconds (or however much it is now) and it automatically goes back to 100% when they cross the finish line. They never show the state of charge of the battery itself, which has to be replenished by harvesting energy - which we all thought of as being done when coasting or braking, like in a Prius.

 

[dsgerbc]

Ok, thanks; never bothered to check what the indicator shows , I guess. The FIA, though, should be able to see the state of the battery on telemetry logs.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Horner's denying traction control claims.

http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/1...aims-that-red-bull-are-using-traction-control

Don't know why people think it is traction control, drivers in F1 must be off a poor standard if you can find 2 seconds a lap just through better throttle control.

It is something really to do with finding more downforce after Hungary, they already had the fastest car even then but they have taken a big step forward it seems. With low downforce wings, they still had great downforce to take corners fast and also get great exits out of low speed corners. On maximum downforce, they are on another level now race pace wise. They also have good front wing design that stops rubber getting in the wings and losing performance. If one of the Mercedes drivers can get pole again, then upcoming race should be an interesting one as long as Sebastian can't overtake quickly in first few laps.

 

[The Outlaw]

Don't know why people think it is traction control, drivers in F1 must be off a poor standard if you can find 2 seconds a lap just through better throttle control.

It is something really to do with finding more downforce after Hungary, they already had the fastest car even then but they have taken a big step forward it seems. With low downforce wings, they still had great downforce to take corners fast and also get great exits out of low speed corners. On maximum downforce, they are on another level now race pace wise. They also have good front wing design that stops rubber getting in the wings and losing performance. If one of the Mercedes drivers can get pole again, then upcoming race should be an interesting one as long as Sebastian can't overtake quickly in first few laps.

+1. I don't know why so many have been so quick to jump on the, "it must be traction control" bandwagon either. Traction control is worth very little at this level, particularly in dry conditions when it comes to raw/1 lap pace. It's not as if traction control can magically increase the tires ultimate/threshold of grip somehow. Red Bull's excellent low speed traction particularly at Singapore was most likely down to a significant downforce advantage at the rear of the car (likely from the EBD, which might be tuned to maximize the diffusers efficiency at lower speeds, which can be of great advantage in terms of lap time and rear tire wear).

Also, the 2+ second a lap advantage so many speak of is a bit rubbish/artificial in my view, and was really just down to various factors that seem often overlooked (differences in strategy, issues with Rosberg's car).

Mercedes might be able to challenge Red Bull for pole on select tracks on the remaining calender, but I don't think they'll be anywhere near Red Bull on race pace (given Red Bull's recent form). Of course weather is always a large variable, so nothing is certain. To me, Mercedes' problem with tire wear has likely been down to their FRIC design, and incredibly soft roll rates they run on the car. I think they have solid downforce levels, but combining this with a chassis that has so much weight transfers (on the roll axis) is highly abusive to the tires (particularly lap after lap, in higher speed corners - or mid speed corners where the rear is pushed hard).