What Do You Want from a €10,000 Car?

  • Thread starter YSSMAN
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White & Nerdy
And it'll still be ugly and embarassing. Also, exactly how quick are those things? According to simulations run by Automobile-Catalog.com, a V6 Cavalier (pretty much the same car) will run about 8.5 seconds 0-60 and 125 MPH in the top end. Is it really possible to get that level of performance out of a microscopic little engine like that for under 13 grand?
Honestly, I'd rather have 2 or 4 than 3 or 5, although the Chevy Sonic sedan proves that even a notchback can look off.
Already have that, although only 4 can be used legally since the center rear seat doesn't have a seatbelt.
That's not much.
OK, whatever
Have those, but they're not really necessary
Guess I didn't really realize there were cars that had bucket seats but no center console.
I guess I thought most cars had that as a matter of course now.
Not really necessary, but whatever.
Whatever, but at this point I'd like to add that I myself never use A/C as a matter of principle.
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You missed a key word in quoting him.
Noob616
I think @YSSMAN and @Beeblebrox237 summed it up, what you can reasonably expect is 3-5 doors, 5 seats, a ~100hp 4 cylinder, good fuel economy, power locks and windows, a center console, ABS, and a USB/AUX port. I'd probably add A/C to the list as something to be reasonably expected. Beyond that you're into stuff that would be nice but probably isn't realistic.
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Expect, not want.
Almost every discussion about new cars goes the same way. Someone thinks they're clever for saying you can get a better used car for *price point* that will be more fun, as if anyone cross shops a 13k new hatchback with used sports cars.
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Dat foreshadowing.
It's almost like we're a very small group of car buyers who want performance capabilities that aren't relevant to a discussion of a new car for $13k. It reminds me of how every time a new Macbook comes out the PC Gaming master race people go on about how much better their custom built desktops are.

Some shocking realities here:
  • Some people don't care how fast or fun their car is.
  • Some people would rather have the peace of mind of a warranty.
  • Some people would rather have the equipment on a new car.
  • Some people would rather have an efficient hatchback than a sports car.
  • Some people don't know how to maintain or fix the issues inherent to older cars.
  • Some people just want a new car.
Earth shattering stuff, I know.
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You should have probably read this as well instead of selectively focusing on the first part.
 
White & Nerdy
And it'll still be ugly and embarassing. Also, exactly how quick are those things? According to simulations run by Automobile-Catalog.com, a V6 Cavalier (pretty much the same car) will run about 8.5 seconds 0-60 and 125 MPH in the top end. Is it really possible to get that level of performance out of a microscopic little engine like that for under 13 grand?
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A new car would be much less embarassing than a 15-20 year old car to most people, simply because it's new. And after all these years it would be way off that, 10+ to 60. Probably a similar pace to the top spec Dacia Sandero (works out at around $13000). It can come with a 90bhp 0.9 litre petrol engine. Quite a bit of power in a ~1000kg car. Also comes with sat nav, a/c, aux input, a long warranty, better suspension (handles better), 5 seats and a decent sized boot. Crucially though, the running costs would be much smaller and it wouldn't need hardly as much work. Vastly better economy, everything works and peace of mind.
 
You could get a new car and a used car, like I did. Also, 100hp in a 1000kg (2200lbs) car is plenty enough for a run around. The 2 will do 0-58mph in about 9 seconds flat (the 2-3 shift at 58mph kills the 0-60 time, its like 11.5)
 
As a matter of curiosity, I decided to see exactly which cars are available under budget. I went to MSN Autos and went for "vehicles under $15,000" because you can't get exactly $13,000. Here they are:

Nissan Versa: Base model starts at $11,900... but the destination & handling charge is $810, leaving only $200 for options. Unfortunately, the rear decklid spoiler is $340, and the alloy wheels are $800. Steel wheels I guess I could live with, but notchbacked cars should have spoilers (even though my current one doesnt). I installed some interior accent lighting and Nissan branded valve stem caps, bringing the total MSRP to $12,992, but the dealer might charge above MSRP for those accessories, and installation will probably push the car over budget anyway. Without the caps, it's $12,980. Now you might be able to get the spoiler thrown in for less if you're a good negotiator, but probably not the wheels.

It comes standard with some kind of Bluetooth phone system.

Additionally, performance, appearance, and some miscellaneous features are strung out across the increasingly expensive trim levels. The S Plus variant has the spoiler standard, but it's CVT only (which does boost fuel economy) and starts at $13,990. If you want a split folding rear seatback, you need the $15,530 SV variant, which adds a USB connection port, and is once again CVT only. If you want 16" wheels from the factory, you have to go all the way to the SL version, which starts at $16,980 and includes an audio system with a 5" color display, and NissanConnect with Mobile Apps. I'm not sure if that would actually add too much weight anymore, but... there's got to be some argument against it. The base model is the only one that can have a manual transmission (an automatic pushes it over budget), and it doesn't have a very good selection of colors. It's not a bad looking car, and I suppose it might actually serve very nicely.

And I'm pretty sure that the color shown below is the most colorful one available on the base model.

Nissan Versa.png

Chevrolet Spark: Base model starts at $12,170 for the manual transmission variant... with an $825 destination freight charge. The resulting price of $12,995 leaves no room for options, but fortunately you don't miss out on much. You also get a few electronic devices here and there, such as an aux input, an oil life monitoring system, an electronic liftgate release, and OnStar. A wide variety of colors is available at no extra charge, although three of them do come with rather garish interior trim. Still, there is no such thing as having your cake and eating it too here - several sporty appearence options (front & rear fascias, different, though same-size, wheels, chrome exhaust) are tied to the $16,115 2LT model, which comes with more electronic features, and also a set of roof rails.

And I still think it's a bit sissyish. And, after seeing one in person, at a dealership, I still don't think it'll quite satisfy those concerned with interior materials quality.

Chevrolet Spark.png

Mitsubishi Mirage: Only nominally squeaks in at $12,995, so with its $810 destination charge, it goes over budget. From what I've heard, it isn't much good anyway.

You will, of course, miss out on the sports bodykit - it's available as an option on the base model, but the car is already over budget... You do get power locks, windows, and mirrors, keyless entry with a panic alarm feature, and a USB port, though compared to the others, it that doesn't really stand out. Not sure it matters anyway, what with the car being over budget.

Mitsubishi Mirage 1.png

Mitsubishi Mirage 2.png
 
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Well darn folks, pack it in. I forgot about the crucial element of sissyness, clearly our ideas about what 13k gets you were completely unreasonable.

Thread over. Everyone go buy a Crown Vic.

@White & Nerdy what you seem to be missing is that this thread isn't about some fantasy world where we can get a new Pontiac G8 for less than a Yaris. "Want" in this context is referring to what features you can reasonably expect and be happy with on a car in this price point. I want a car that has RWD and a big powerful engine for 13k in the same way that I want to marry a supermodel, and play professional hockey for a living.
 
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For 10.000€ my realistic expectation would be something that keeps water and cold out, me and warmth in, and goes from A to B - and that's it.

The cheapest car I've driven is a Dacia Logan and it already cost more than 10.000€ but it is, to put it simply, horrible. No steering feel, no useful power (1.5l turbodiesel and a whopping 85 bhp) and I'm actually surprised the driver's seat isn't made of hard grey plastic because everything else in the interior, including the steering wheel and the gear shift knob, is. No noticable sound insulation (want to listen to the radio above 60 km/h - use noise cancelling headphones) and not even electrically adjustable mirrors or centre locking when opening the door normally with a key.

Taking into account that that's what you get over here with 13.000€ or so... I may not even want to know what is possible with 3000€ less.
 
Noob616
@White & Nerdy what you seem to be missing is that this thread isn't about some fantasy world where we can get a new Pontiac G8 for less than a Yaris. "Want" in this context is referring to what features you can reasonably expect and be happy with on a car in this price point. I want a car that has RWD and a big powerful engine for 13k in the same way that I want to marry a supermodel, and play professional hockey for a living.
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Well that's exactly why used cars are so great. You'd be amazed at the kind of cars you can get for this budget that are just a few years old. If you're lucky you could even get a base model BMW 5-series or Pontiac G8 from the year 2008 under 13 grand. Won't be a hot V8, but it'll be a lot more car than a stupid little hatchback and it'll be new enough to still be reliable. '09 Mazdaspeed 3, '08 Nissan 350Z, '10 Mazda MX-5, '08 Cadillac CTS, '11 VW Golf, '10 Dodge Charger, '08 Ford F-150, '10 Mazda RX-8, and that's just at the expensive end. You can get a Cobalt SS for not much more than 10 grand, apparently. Take some time to peruse through this list of used cars under $15,000:

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/deci...5000&isnew=0&OrderCol=price&OrderDir=1&page=1

How many of those are several times more desireable than the three cars I mentioned there - and that list doesn't even appear to show anything older than 2008!
 
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White & Nerdy
Well that's exactly why used cars are so great. You'd be amazed at the kind of cars you can get for this budget that are just a few years old. If you're lucky you could even get a base model BMW 5-series or Pontiac G8 from the year 2008 under 13 grand. Won't be a hot V8, but it'll be a lot more car than a stupid little hatchback and it'll be new enough to still be reliable. '09 Mazdaspeed 3, '08 Nissan 350Z, '10 Mazda MX-5, '08 Cadillac CTS, '11 VW Golf, '10 Dodge Charger, '08 Ford F-150, '10 Mazda RX-8, and that's just at the expensive end. You can get a Cobalt SS for not much more than 10 grand, apparently. Take some time to peruse through this list of used cars under $15,000:

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/decision-guide.aspx?expmdl=endgd#filters=&price=0-15000&isnew=0&OrderCol=price&OrderDir=1&page=1

How many of those are several times more desireable than the three cars I mentioned there - and that list doesn't even appear to show anything older than 2008!
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Not everyone wants a sportscar. Or what you want.
 
So what in do I expect for a car for $13,000 US.. Well, to be honest, I expect not much. For one, its going to be small, small powered, roller windows, manual locks, manual A/C with heat, a rear defroster, AM/FM CD with 4 speakers, manual shift (auto/cvt for a little more), and that's about it. It is crazy to think the car at $13k will come loaded with everything you want. But, I have bulit and priced Fiestas and Mazda 2s for less than $17,000 with automatics, and if you can be patient here in the states, you can score some good deals on new cars if smart and careful. I've seen deals such as Cruzes and Focuses for what you pay for the Fiesta, the Sonic, and the 2. *Currently drives a 2004 Chrysler Sebring*
 
White & Nerdy
'09 Mazdaspeed 3, '08 Nissan 350Z, '10 Mazda MX-5, '08 Cadillac CTS, '11 VW Golf, '10 Dodge Charger, '08 Ford F-150, '10 Mazda RX-8, and that's just at the expensive end. You can get a Cobalt SS for not much more than 10 grand, apparently.

...

How many of those are several times more desireable than the three cars I mentioned there - and that list doesn't even appear to show anything older than 2008!
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And in that list

  • Mazdaspeed 6: Complicated turbocharged engine, troublesome AWD system. Expensive to repair, and not so great on gas.
  • Nissan 350Z: Impractical two-seater, higher insurance costs, not so great on gas
  • Mazda MX-5: Although the answer is always Miata, for someone who happens to need to carry more than two people with them, the option goes out the door
  • Cadillac CTS: Even as the GM guy around here, you're crazy if you think that's anywhere near a good idea
  • VW Golf: See Cadillac CTS. High replacement part costs, poor insurance rates, largely uncompetitive fuel economy for its class
  • Dodge Charger: More reliable depending on the engine, maybe, if its been taken care of. But holy hell, bad on gas
  • Ford F-150: If you need something that big, sure, but we're talking about $13,000 cars here...
  • Mazda RX-8: You do realize these things pretty much need a new engine after 100,000 miles, right? Not realistic whatsoever for a non-enthusiast driver
  • Chevrolet Cobalt SS: Reasonably reliable, fun to drive, decent on gas, but saddled with safety issues. Not exactly a winner there, unless you're an idiot like me who will completely disregard reality and buy one anyway because no one wants them anymore
Overall, you're entirely missing the point here. We totally understand that buying used can get you more. In fact, I don't think many of us are arguing that you can't. But, in the real world, there are a lot of people that have to make a decision between a cheap new car - fresh out of the box, or something maybe a little better - for not much more. Its a realistic problem that a lot of folks have, where is the smart place to put your money. A car that'll have fewer problems and little/no maintenance for three to five years, and keep it for a decade or more? Or, get something "nicer" that's already 3-5 years old, and only be able to keep it for another 3-5 years?

Returning to the original question, as it was, what do you think should be the primary standard features in a brand-new $13k car?
 
Tornado
Though I will also say that:

I know we don't get the wide variety of superminis and the like offered in other countries, but if you were looking for cool transport and were limited to new cars, the cheapest one I can think of which anyone would call cool is still 2 grand over the "budget."
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Fiat Panda, Volkswagen Up!, Citroen C1, Ford Ka, Peugeot 107, Renault Twingo, Seat Mii and Suzuki Swift are cool cars IMO, all are available for under €10,000 in Germany.
 
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Best thing to do is probably to buy a nearly new car, after it's been through the worst depreciaton.
 
Famine
20,000 miles in 2 years from an up!. That's not had an easy life.

I wonder how much the warranty is worth to you next year... I hope its got two stamps in the service book or VW might not honour it in any case.
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But it's a truly cracking car. You can't put a price on that can you?
 
If I was to buy a new car at £8k-ish, the assumption would be that I just wanted A Car. Any desirable or aspirational qualities - performance, style, equipment - would be at the bottom of my list of priorities. Much more important would be economy, safety and reliability. On that basis, I would go for either the Dacia Sandero or the Skoda Citigo.

There are certainly benefits to buying new. You will almost certainly get better service from the dealer, and if you want to be a little bit individual you should be able to spec the car to your own tastes.

I say 'should', because what is more likely to happen is that you'll be steered towards a similar (or plentiful) version of that car which they already have in stock. You'll be offered greater discounts, and they'll remind you that the wait will be far shorter. So in the end, you'll more than likely end up with whatever the most common spec/colour/engine combo there is.

There are other disadvantages to buying brand new, too. The hit of depreciation for just driving off the forecourt is pretty painful, for one. Generally, the best finance deals offered on new cars tie you down to that dealer, because renewing the agreement will generally be by far the best value option. This is great if you're happy with everything, but if you've received bad service, the car has proven to be a dog, or you just want a change, then you will take a financial hit for opting out.

My personal choice would to go for a pre-registered model; you'll get lower depreciation, almost the same warranty period (perhaps 6-12 months less) but it's still basically a brand new car - you still have the same peace of mind that a new car offers, plus the reassurance that no other ham-fisted idiot has got behind the wheel. Apart from maybe a salesman or two.. The lower purchase price may allow you to afford a slightly higher spec that was out of reach on a new model, too.

I realise I've gone off on a slight tangent there, but if you're buying a car at this price point, it is most likely intended to be a sensible, financially sound purchase, and on that basis I personally feel going brand new is not the best way of doing things.
 
YSSMAN
  • Mazda RX-8: You do realize these things pretty much need a new engine after 100,000 miles, right?
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Except they don't. Sure, the US versions didn't last as long because they weren't revved as hard due to the auto box, but if you look after them they shouldn't need a new engine after 100,000 miles. You'll have issues (as you probably will with any 100,000 mile engine), but they shouldn't require a full rebuild.

They're definitely not a practical daily driver though, that's for sure.
 
Murcie_LP640
$13k gets you an absolute butt-load of used car. Even in Australia's marked up car climate.

Wouldn't even think about buying new, because aside from a warranty it's not financially superior.
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Considering the fact that once a new car is bought, all the money it'll need poured into it for the next 3-5 years is basic service & gas, it is. A used car will require that & more.
 
Legro
Fiat Panda, Volkswagen Up!, Citroen C1, Ford Ka, Peugeot 107, Renault Twingo, Seat Mii and Suzuki Swift are cool cars IMO, all are available for under €10,000 in Germany.
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Incidentally, every single one of those falls under the wide variety of superminis and the like that America does not get.
 
Tornado
Incidentally, every single one of those falls under the wide variety of superminis and the like that America does not get.
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That's a shame. I'd have imagined superminis like that would work well in some of the more congested USA cities
 
Jay.
Small cars have always caused more bodily damage than larger cars.
http://www.autonews.com/article/201...-struggle-in-latest-round-of-iihs-crash-tests
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You do realize that a majority of medium sized cars engineered several years ago would absolutely, unequivocally fail the small overlap crash test? And that many current bigger cars still fail it?

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On the practicality side, yes, you lose a tremendous amount of money on a brand new car. But a $13,000 secondhand car, especially if it's a fast and powerful one, will also typically lose half its resale value over five years. Best case scenario, if it's desirable, you'll lose $1k less, which you will definitely lose in fuel economy and running costs, either way.

It's only when you get cars down in the $3k - $4k range that everything stabilizes.

In the meantime, your typical brand new $13k car would be costing you less to maintain and less to fuel up. Much less, in some cases.

-

As @Joey D says... secondhand is a grand bargain in some cases, but that's not the point of the thread.

If we're looking at a brand new car for $13k... there's not really much you can squeeze into that. The Mirage has the potential to be a modern Insight or Civic VX... It's ultra-lightweight and fuel economy is amazing. Too bad it drives like a wet sponge.

It would be possible to get a 2,000 lb three door hatch with two seats, a 1.5 and minimal equipment under $13k... as with the Mirage... but I'd want mine to be engineered by Mazda, please. The question is whether economies of scale would ever make this format viable in this market.

Personally... I wouldn't mind something like this:

1545894_1509952462563899_108551751_n-jpg.109


Yeah, yeah... but consider... if you can get a naturally aspirated car for $7k... then a factory turbocharged one should be well under $13k... if they ever release one. With just 100 hp, something this small and aerodynamic would fly.

Then there are Locosts... and superbikes... you can get a whole lot of 600cc motor, which would blow the doors off of most anything, brand new, at this kind of money.
 

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