What is 'Clean' and what is 'Dirty'?

[DDAAVVIIDD82]

59 replies (now 60) and not a single meme.

 

[Deadpool]

Dude, I have raced professionally, I think I can speak with some authority on the subject thank you very much. You are missing the point completely. In any online race series you can make up your own rules, you're not obliged to follow GTPlanet Rules. I'm talking about the GTPLanet Rules of Racing, which provide a fair and equitable set of rules for everyone to follow, which if followed, provide for clean, incident free racing.

Your F1 example is completely irrelevant. F1 drivers have much more control over their vehicles than GT5 drivers. F1 drivers have years and years of professional racing under their belt, the guy beside you on the grid in a GT5 race, likely hasn't raced anything faster than his Mom's VW Passat or perhaps a go kart rental slug at the local track. F1 has spotters, live radio feeds, and much more comprehensive sensory input than racing in your living room on a tv screen. There are several viewpoints in GT5, some of which don't come with a mirror. And most guys have enough trouble with braking and cornering that to require them to continuously watch the mirror even as they've begun their turn-in just so you can squeeze into the last mm of real estate on the inside of the corner just isn't realistic.

The point is, there are various levels of skill and experience in GT5, and the GTPLanet Rules of Racing allow for that and provide for a good experience for everyone. If you choose to enter a series where you are 60PP down and they allow you to outbrake someone, good for you, you're the man, way to go. But that won't work in the majority of race lobbies or even the majority of race series. What you call outbraking, is, under the GTPlanet Rules, what is commonly know as divebombing and most of the time it doesn't work and guys are pinballing each other in the corners because they missed the braking point by a couple of metres.

So have I, and I currently hold a FIA license

The problem is your not listening. I understand what the GTplanet rules are, but were not discussing that. Were discussing what is ACTUALLY clean/dirty racing and it's use in the REAL world.

I equate the GTPlanet rules to a PCA event where your not allowed to pass under braking or in corners. It's a joke.

The F1 example is entirely relevant. It pertains to actual racing, and competent drivers.

 

[McClarenDesign]

59 replies (now 60) and not a single meme.

Because memes have their own thread, and belong there. The last thing we need is those populating every thread.

So have I, and I currently hold a FIA license

The problem is your not listening. I understand what the GTplanet rules are, but were not discussing that. Were discussing what is ACTUALLY clean/dirty racing and it's use in the REAL world.

I equate the GTPlanet rules to a PCA event where your not allowed to pass under braking or in corners. It's a joke.

The F1 example is entirely relevant. It pertains to actual racing, and competent drivers.

Both points are valid, however I personally believe the GTP rules are a bit "too sanitized" for my liking. Neither of you are wrong... which is odd for here.

One thing: Do you guys think the "one move per straight" rule should count too in very long straights, like in Le Mans (No chicanes), or SSR7, even after one has been passed?

With long straights, there's plenty of time for a counter-attack, so one move-per-straight isn't that much of an issue, as you get another move once you've retaken the lead... or if, I should say. The main question was about swerving back and forth, either to block , or prevent a draft. Swerving irratically like that is frowned upon, regardless of series.

For a recent look, I'm still waiting the outcome of Rosberg's two incidents this morning.

 

[watermelon punch]

Clean: when you drive like it's a sim

Dirty: when you drive like online opponents are zombie AI

That sums it up really.

Payback is not justice

👍

dive-bombing? Doesn't that require contact?

Not always. The dive-bomber can dive bomb through, not make contact, because the car being dive-bombed avoids hitting them, and ruins their own race in doing so avoiding the dive bombing car.
👎 👎 👎 👎

So, IMHO, just because you got away with something - doesn't mean it wasn't unsporting & unfriendly.

Driving in an aggressive manner where your intention is to collide or distract the opposition is considered "dirty" driving. Driving in a manner where you have respect for other drivers on the course and avoiding body contact wherever possible is considered "clean" driving. For me as a racer, I prefer the clean lobbies.

+ 👍 + 👍 + 👍

I HATE dive bombers! I am one of those guys who tries to keep momentum up by braking early and lightly, rolling through the center of the corner and driving off hard. I've practiced the technique and have it down and I'm clearly faster because of it. But it's hard to do because when you brake even the slightest bit early, people try to stuff their nose down inside knowing that I'm about to turn in. I understand from the dive bombers perspective that the door WAS open, but if you follow me for more than 1 corner you'll see that the door doesn't stay open long enough for you to crawl through it.

This is why the GTP OLR Rules have a rule against that type of passing.
ie: you need significant overlap before the turn-in point.
Too many people think they can beat it to the apex, not seeming to realize by the time they get there the car ahead, who has the right, will be there too.
It's a recipe for contact, and therefore in my book, you're deliberately causing collisions if you do that sort of thing.
ie: a small error on the part of the ahead driver is not an opening for overtake - judgment should still be used.
Some people, unsporting in my book, think that anything is an opening, from the car ahead being a tad unstable, braking an inch earlier than expected, or using the racing line instead of hugging a defensive inside line... is an opening to shove through.

Bottom line is... when you're racing with people with the same attitude & rules in mind, you know it for the most part.
When you're not, you'll know that too & either people will get angry, people will quit, people will get kicked, or it'll just be unpleasant racing.
And that's the signal - not your cup of tea - so just best to move along and find a different lobby or different racing pals. 👍

I disagree. Late braking is a viable option and the lead car should be aware of a car that is trying for his inside and stay wide to avoid contact.

Stay away from GTP OLR Rules races then.
Because the exact opposite is expected in GTP OLR Rules races.
Indeed it's encouraged that the lead driver drive a defensive line around the inside to force the following driver into an inconvenient line.

It all depends on who you think has the responsibility to not make contact.
Most people agree (and insurance companies dealing with real roads agree) that the following driver has the responsibility to not make contact.

 

[DDAAVVIIDD82]

Because memes have their own thread, and belong there. The last thing we need is those populating every thread.

Absolutely. The fewer the memes the better. I was just under the impression a forum thread without memes was one of the signs of the apocalypse.

 

[Deadpool]

Not always. The dive-bomber can dive bomb through, not make contact, because the car being dive-bombed avoids hitting them, and ruins their own race in doing so avoiding the dive bombing car.

So, IMHO, just because you got away with something - doesn't mean it wasn't unsporting & unfriendly.

How does it ruin there race? They get overtaken under braking by what is probably a faster driver......and then continue as they were. At most it might cost them a second due to changing there line and being slowed down on the exit.

These are textbook passes. Nothing unsporting/unfriendly about them. If you got passed under braking, you should have taken a defensive line or anticipate it and try for a "over under".

This is why the GTP OLR Rules have a rule against that type of passing.
ie: you need significant overlap before the turn-in point.
Too many people think they can beat it to the apex, not seeming to realize by the time they get there the car ahead, who has the right, will be there too.
It's a recipe for contact, and therefore in my book, you're deliberately causing collisions if you do that sort of thing.
ie: a small error on the part of the ahead driver is not an opening for overtake - judgment should still be used.

Part of what you're describing is excessive dive bombing which can be sketchy. The most I will attempt, if I know I have a braking advantage, and I'm 2 car lengths behind as he's braking. From this I can usually easily beat them into the corner.

Some people, unsporting in my book, think that anything is an opening, from the car ahead being a tad unstable, braking an inch earlier than expected, or using the racing line instead of hugging a defensive inside line... is an opening to shove through.

That's because they are openings. If your not exploiting these, then you're not really racing.

It all depends on who you think has the responsibility to not make contact.
Most people agree (and insurance companies dealing with real roads agree) that the following driver has the responsibility to not make contact.

Insurance companies are irrelevant. As far as the FIA are concerned, if the leading driver is being overtaken under braking he has the responsibility to not intentionally close the door and hit or force the other driver off the road. At the same time, the overtaking driver has to keep his car under control and not run wide/into the other car.

Guess how many passes were like that in today's F1 race.......tons.

 

[Deadpool]

Both points are valid, however I personally believe the GTP rules are a bit "too sanitized" for my liking. Neither of you are wrong... which is odd for here.

Agreed on the "too sanitized" part. The league I'm in can get really intense fighting for position, but were all "clean" with it. If one of us accidentally taps the other, we concede the position, but we rarely have contact. Had a race two weeks ago where I was racing for first and the two of us were side by side through multiple corners for 3 laps after a 40min race in the rain. Ended up coming down to the faster exit on the last turn and I won by .003 seconds. My splitter won me the race lol.

For a recent look, I'm still waiting the outcome of Rosberg's two incidents this morning.

I'm interested to see this also. I think, he might be ok as your allowed one block and there's nothing in the rules of taking that block to the edge of the track. I forget if Hamilton was on his side at that point or chose to go off. With Alonso though, Alonso never got alongside Rosberg so I see no fault there. I'll have to rewatch the one with Lewis though.

 

[watermelon punch]

@ Deadpool

If you're equating the big professional money machine that is Formula 1 real life racing, with an online racing game for fun...

Then we're not on the same page.

Enough said.

 

[Deadpool]

@ Deadpool

If you're equating the big professional money machine that is Formula 1 real life racing, with an online racing game for fun...

Then we're not on the same page.

Enough said.

The same goes for ALMS or any other race series under the FIA. One of us here is talking about racing tactics and the other finds them to be unfair. Well the racing world has spoken, and it's not "dirty/unfair". It's racing.

Yes we are talking about a game.......a RACING game. And the tactics used in real life are the same used in the game.

 

[Racedude]

Why are you taking a late-braking overtake as a dirty move? Or am I missing something here?

 

[watermelon punch]

The same goes for ALMS or any other race series under the FIA. One of us here is talking about racing tactics and the other finds them to be unfair. Well the racing world has spoken, and it's not "dirty/unfair". It's racing.

Yes we are talking about a game.......a RACING game. And the tactics used in real life are the same used in the game.

You just don't get it.

Many gt5 racers have spoken, and many like the GTP OLR Rules.

And I can play gt5 whatever way I choose. You don't get to tell me what rules to use.
Neither does "the racing world".

Man, if did that, maybe then we'd ONLY use NASCAR rules for ALL gt5 races.
(100% spec!) lol

This whole reasoning is MADNESS.

Let alone that your average gt5 player does NOT have the same equipment or situation set up to mimic completely the entire control that a real race car driver would have in a real car... let alone the years of experience.


And, add to that there's no real consequences in the game.
You can do things and get away with them in a game that you would never try in real life unless you really didn't care if you died or not.

Also - no real money involved, and no financial burden or real life fortune & fame riding on it.


Most people are playing with their pals. 💡

I don't see how you can even BEGIN to equate a video game with a real life motorsport at all. Much less gt5.

So this whole line of reasoning the argument sounds completely loopy to me.

 

[Johnnypenso]

So have I, and I currently hold a FIA license

The problem is your not listening. I understand what the GTplanet rules are, but were not discussing that. Were discussing what is ACTUALLY clean/dirty racing and it's use in the REAL world.

I equate the GTPlanet rules to a PCA event where your not allowed to pass under braking or in corners. It's a joke.

The F1 example is entirely relevant. It pertains to actual racing, and competent drivers.

Maybe you missed the orginal post and perhaps should re-read it. In it, the OP is talking about his experience in online racing in the context of GT5, since this is a GT5 site, not a real world racing site. I don't recall him mentioning his F1 career, his ALMS experience or what applies down at the local rental kart track.

I agree with everyone else that the GTPlanet Rules are a watered down version of racing, but you're missing their purpose. Their purpose isn't to serve a bunch of guys in a closed series, that have tons of online experience, they are meant for the masses, to provide clean, predicatable, organized, good tight racing, where if you miss checking your mirrors by .01 seconds someone isn't going to be trying to dive into the 1 car + 1 mm gap you so carelessly left open. In a closed series, make whatever rules you want and then clean or dirty can only be answered within the context of the rules of that series.

And the rules do allow for passing in corners and under braking, you obviously haven't read them, but certain, very simple and easy to follow conditions must be met. No it isn't perfect, but again, it isn't meant for Mr. F1 GT5 driver, it's mean for him when he's racing with Larry Lada, Suzi Suzuki, and Penny Porsche (cheap porn innuendo intentional)

See Punch, we can agree on something...lol

 

[watermelon punch]

I equate the GTPlanet rules to a PCA event where your not allowed to pass under braking or in corners. It's a joke.

LOL
I missed that one.
Who said you can never pass?
Like if you can't dive bomb you can't pass at all?
That's so ridiculous going to extremes.

GTP OLR allows passing at corners. IF the ahead car spoils their turn or misses the line, there's many ways passing at corners is legal.

It's just not legal to shoot a nose in with a dive bomb & force a space where none will exist by the time you get there, forcing the ahead car to either attempt to wildly change their position at the last moment to avoid contact. Or just let the crash happen if it's going to, or riding them through the corner.
Those are the things that are against the rules.

Not passing on its own.

I'm not sure I understand what's so confusing about this, or about the idea of avoiding contact as the goal.

Everyone in a real life car race is avoiding contact (for monetary or life & limb purposes). There's no such incentive or consequence in gt5, therefore the rules need to present them.

(Exception to this of course is perhaps psychopathic racers, who don't care about killing themselves or others with wild risks in real life)

 

[AJ11]

Am I missing something? I barely use the brakes! When a turn is coming up I tap the brake and just coast thru the turn. This allows me to maintain maximum speed, and easily over take drivers. My two friends who I race with weekly hate the way I play!they simply can't keep up with me on the turns. I have tried playing there way but I always feel like I'm braking to hard and losing to much speed. I've driven like this for years don't know any other way.
I don't understand why you would go into a corner as fast as you can slam.on your brakes and then make your turn then accelerate. Why wouldn't you slow down ahead of time and take the turn right on the edge of going off? Cars don't like to turn under throttle or braking so why would you try and do both? I know most of you will think I'm crazy but that's where I do all my passing on the turns baby. It takes a lot of time and knowledge of the tracks to do this and its more of a rhythm than anything.

 

[watermelon punch]

Am I missing something? I barely use the brakes!

I don't understand why you would go into a corner as fast as you can slam.on your brakes and then make your turn then accelerate.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7012626#post7012626

The only aid I use is abs! I can't stand when I'm flying up to a corner hit the brakes and start spinning out!

And am I missing how this relates to "clean" or "dirty" driving?

 

[McClarenDesign]

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7012626#post7012626



And am I missing how this relates to "clean" or "dirty" driving?

You aren't the only one...

 

[Kamdoon]

OP seems to have a valid question about GT conventions -- I had the same and was referred to : https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=250862&page=2

This helped me greatly (I'm new to racing, and GT series with GT5).

Question for McClaren: you said, "You're talking about Senna's dive bombs, when there was a disappearing gap." It's funny because I just watched a video about Senna on Netflix, and saw the race when he was gunning for first place with his own teammate, and dive-bombed them both into the sandbox. Are you referring to that particular event, or was Senna notorious for that?

 

[McClarenDesign]

Notorious? You'd think he invented the move.

If you wanna see it done right, watch Al Unser Jr at Long Beach.

 

[Kamdoon]

Ha Ha. I'll have to check it out more.. watching the vid I could have sworn that he had no right to take the corner -- rewinded a couple times. To his own teammate? Pretty ballsy.

Great work on COTW, by the way.

 

[McClarenDesign]

Ha Ha. I'll have to check it out more.. watching the vid I could have sworn that he had no right to take the corner -- rewinded a couple times. To his own teammate? Pretty ballsy.

Great work on COTW, by the way.

Any of the Long Beach races he was in, but the best were with Penske and Galles.

Senna's attack was more psychological than psychopathic. Think Pavlov.

Thanks for the compliment. I should have this weeks up before Monday. If you like the reviews , share a link with your friends.

 

[dxm8975]

To have a fair race without any hinderance or crook, you must stay within the track and keep avoiding obstacles no matter what happens before you, just as actual racing drivers do for safety. The term "cleanness" can allude to all the drivers who does stick on the road all the time and do not offend other drivers' path in their contest whilst the word "dirty" or "dirtiness" does refer to those unpleasant with such implicit regulations and continue to offend rules by doing unusual things like cutting off the supposed lane of the host track.

 

[watermelon punch]

In gt5 racing... I guess I see the bottom line is this...
We're all here playing gt5 as a hobby. It's a game. We do it for fun, we're not being paid for it.
Given all this...

Who are people most going to want to race with again & again, and have fun with?

Is it the people who agree to rules up front and then play by them? And race with respect for others' having fun?

Or the people who will "continue to offend the rules" by attempting to win not by driving the track in the agreed upon manner, but attempting to win "by crook", "to collide or distract the opposition".

The answer is clear to me. Given whatever set of rules is agreed upon up front - whether it be GTP OLR Rules, or some basic Dirty NASCAR with an understanding of no driving around backward or wrecking the last place guy...
The people I'm going to want to have fun with again & again in my spare leisure time, are the ones who agree to those rules up front, and then actually play by the rules.
The people I'm going to simply become annoyed by are the ones who just want to game the system to get ahead instead of playing fair & square & racing in the agreed upon manner.

 

[AJ11]

I was making fun of the people who slam into others. It was supposed to be sarcastic! Don't know how to write sarcastically I guess

 

[watermelon punch]

It has been said that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.
And text does not lend itself well to "tone of voice". (ie: we can't hear you!)

Perhaps dip into using this more:
http://www.gtpla.net/forum/images/smilies/more/
heh

 

[AJ11]

I'm using a phone all I can do is post pictures and I can't even do that It says invalid. Any clue how I can get to the smily faces. I can't hit my menu button for more option. I have send attachments and cancel.

 

[Kamdoon]

Who are people most going to want to race with again & again, and have fun with?[/I]

The nutshell.👍