What is it about Laguna Seca?

[MrWednesday]

The exit to 9 may go off camber in real life, but I don't believe the track is modeled that way. I've never really had trouble holding a line through the exit of that turn or turn 10 either (which the link also cites as being tricky on the corner exit due to changing camber). And note, particularly, that the article doesn't say that turn 9 is off camber generally, only that it goes off camber in the exit to the turn.

 

[playnthru]

It's just one example I found interesting, there are many easily found. The term "off camber" is used repeatedly throughout discussions on/about Laguna Seca all over the internet.👍

The track is supposed to modeled to life correct?

 

[iamsupernasty]

The camber in turn 9 in real life is much steeper than it is in the game.

In real life, you cannot take a wide line through that turn or you miss the banking all together. The fastest line in real life is through the middle; in the game you take a standard wide line.

 

[MistyRainne]

Ever think your experiment is flawed? We're talking about a console video game here right?

Who's being condescending and unhelpful here. The track has off camber turns. Mainly the exit of turn 9 but it also has no camber turns. Which are nearly as bad! This is all easily googled information. I googled it in minutes (laguna Seca off camber, try it. http://www.grand-am.com/tabid/141/a...azda-Raceway-Laguna-Seca-with-Joe-Foster.aspx ...

GT5 had a grip update some time back. All grip was improved. Perhaps that's what you're feeling? I've never noticed any 'special grip' lapping Laguna Seca?

My experiment does hold, because I’m testing GT5’s Laguna Seca in order to find out more about GT5’s Laguna Seca. (So, yes, we are talking about a video game, and not about the real Laguna Seca.) In fact, I did it again earlier (to double-check), and every single turn in GT5’s Laguna Seca, without exception, is on-camber: the outside edge is higher than the inner edge. Most of them have very slight camber, but they do still have it, and that camber is always on-camber, not off-camber.

I even tested the Corkscrew this time. It first turns left, then switches to turning right. Each of those sub-turns is on-camber too.

So, to say “off-camber” with respect to any of the turns in GT5’s Laguna Seca is to be wrong, false, incorrect, dismissable.

So, off-cambering cannot be an explanation for the “stickiness” I’ve been experiencing on GT5’s Laguna Seca (and not experiencing on any other track).

As for your link:

There is lots of elevation change there that creates a bowl effect, so you'll want to use that banking and that bowl to your advantage.

That’s on-camber. It’s present on every turn in GT5’s Laguna Seca; it’s more pronounced on certain turns, but still present – if only slightly – on all of them.

At the least, this shows that “every turn is off-camber” is incorrect for the real Laguna Seca too.

Up a gear and little left foot brake, nurse the car into turn 9 where you get a bit of compression at the apex, but then it's off camber at the exit.

Well, GT5’s Laguna Seca has no off-camber anywhere between turn 9 and the next turn. He’s talking about the real Laguna Seca, though, which could be slightly different; or perhaps what he meant was “the cambering ends” (which it does) rather than “the cambering goes backwards”? In any case, the road slope between turns 9 and 10 is negligible. And the “stickiness” I’ve been talking about happens all over (the GT5 version of) the track, not just in that part of it.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

I can attest to the presence of positive camber in T9 in iRacing (you know, that laser-scanned track in that super-hyper-realistic game.)


I can attest to the presence of positive camber in T9 in Race '07 (you know, that game by picky/finicky Swedes.)


Basically, T9 is positive-cambered.

 

[playnthru]

I didn't say it can explain "stickiness"? I said the term "off camber" exists and Laguna Seca had off camber turns. It could be googled and here's a example...It still does...In GT5 too

Nothing explains your stickiness.


Which leads me to disregard your testing. You're clearly doing something very wrong. Trying to apply real world physics to a video game will fail every time. The track is scanned correctly, it's the psychics that are failing here.

 

[Johnnypenso]

It's a very technical track by nature. It's not in Northern California or in the desert. It's located between Monterey and Salinas.

As already stated, many of it's turns are off camber.

That's too big of a generalization to be accurate. It's more accurate to say that on a couple of corners the camber that is present mid-corner falls away at exit and/or off the racing line because I believe most corners at Laguna are positively cambered on the racing line at apex, even if only slightly. I don't believe there are any that are negatively cambered at the apex.

^ I still have them all -works on 2.14, thinking of supplying shifter karts ( stock power or more ) for league/club racing Gotta love shifter kart I can also adjust max steering angle, default on all cars in GT5 is 40, I prefer 30 to 35 for track racing, 50 to 70 for drifting.

I'll take one

 

[NCRthree]

I've driven Laguna a lot. Initially I was missing my marks in Sector 1 consistently by overdriving or turning in too late inducing understeer. Earlier entry turn in solved that issue. Practice, practice. Of course Comforts are going to have more understeer in comparison to Sports.

It's a tricky course but one of my favorites. Can't say I've ever noticed any overall "stickiness". Driven many online Enduros in tuned and untuned cars there. Worst part of that track to me is having to remember to enter the pits just right. I've pit glitched Laguna waaay too many times.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I've driven Laguna a lot. Initially I was missing my marks in Sector 1 consistently by overdriving or turning in too late inducing understeer. Earlier entry turn in solved that issue. Practice, practice. Of course Comforts are going to have more understeer in comparison to Sports.

It's a tricky course but one of my favorites. Can't say I've ever noticed any overall "stickiness". Driven many online Enduros in tuned and untuned cars there. Worst part of that track to me is having to remember to enter the pits just right. I've pit glitched Laguna waaay too many times.

Sage advice. At many corners entry is near flat which can feel understeery and then positive camber increases to the apex, and finally flattens out at exit. At turns 5,6,9 and 10 it is most pronounced. Most corners on most purpose built tracks are relatively constant in camber throughout and easier to drive and more predictable as a result. At Laguna getting through the apex once you are there is relatively easy, carrying the right speed into the apex and out is the real trick.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I'll take one

I'll share it HP multiplier do not work now, so 59 HP can only be achieved with twincharging and engine tuning or engine swap The 6 speed still there and I can change max wheel angle to 30 degrees to make it closer to real life kart.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'll share it HP multiplier do not work now, so 59 HP can only be achieved with twincharging and engine tuning or engine swap The 6 speed still there and I can change max wheel angle to 30 degrees to make it closer to real life kart.

Sure, set it up and I'll take it for a spin. I remember a 10/6 brake balance was good for me too if that's possible. Love the shifters!!

This deserves another go 'round!!

​

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Sure, set it up and I'll take it for a spin. I remember a 10/6 brake balance was good for me too if that's possible. Love the shifters!!

This deserves another go 'round!!

​

Hey Johnny, do you think I could get one of these shifter karts? I don't drive karts much but I definitely would if it was one of these.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Sure, set it up and I'll take it for a spin. I remember a 10/6 brake balance was good for me too if that's possible. Love the shifters!!

This deserves another go 'round!!

​

Hey Johnny, do you think I could get one of these shifter karts? I don't drive karts much but I definitely would if it was one of these.

I'll share it in the next few hours 6 speed, how much HP ? it will have 10/6 BB and 30 degrees max wheel angle or 27 ? CS tires ?

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

I'll share it in the next few hours 6 speed, how much HP ? it will have 10/6 BB and 30 degrees max wheel angle or 27 ? CS tires ?

Ok, cool. Thanks again Rido for your continued generosity. Really appreciate it my friend. As for the specs, just whatever you would use will be fine. Peace.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'll share it in the next few hours 6 speed, how much HP ? it will have 10/6 BB and 30 degrees max wheel angle or 27 ? CS tires ?

Personally I preferred the mid-40's in horsepower to match the true life 125 shifters and SH tires, but I'd take one of each for sure..lol. I don't know how the wheel angle affects driving so I can't say on that. I do know it seems to turn too much stock and it's hard to control as a result. Whatever you think is best.

EDIT: I drove the shifter on your profile..gotta say it..the sound blows..other than that it's great...lol. Without better sound though it's not much fun for me. Is there anything you can do to bring the kart motor sound back and maintain the HP? If not, can you swap in another motor? I think the Honda S500's are in the mid-40's for HP and rev to 10,000 rpm, you might try that. If the HP multi isn't working, how are guys still getting 100k hp X1's?

Hey Johnny, do you think I could get one of these shifter karts? I don't drive karts much but I definitely would if it was one of these.

I would if I had one but that video was from the 2.11 hybrids, I have nothing left today and I probably won't get into hybriding again, other than to drive. Luckily for both of us, Rido is a very generous guy!!!!

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Personally I preferred the mid-40's in horsepower to match the true life 125 shifters and SH tires, but I'd take one of each for sure..lol. I don't know how the wheel angle affects driving so I can't say on that. I do know it seems to turn too much stock and it's hard to control as a result. Whatever you think is best.

EDIT: I drove the shifter on your profile..gotta say it..the sound blows..other than that it's great...lol. Without better sound though it's not much fun for me. Is there anything you can do to bring the kart motor sound back and maintain the HP? If not, can you swap in another motor? I think the Honda S500's are in the mid-40's for HP and rev to 10,000 rpm, you might try that. If the HP multi isn't working, how are guys still getting 100k hp X1's?



I would if I had one but that video was from the 2.11 hybrids, I have nothing left today and I probably won't get into hybriding again, other than to drive. Luckily for both of us, Rido is a very generous guy!!!!

I'll put in supercharger or engine tuning instead of turbo, that would bring back the sound, if it can't reach the same HP, I'll swap in another engine that rev as quick I totally missed the sound issue . Getting more power (thousands) uses different approach than multiplying HP . Max wheel angle affects the car when driven, I'll share one of my car- not kart that has less than 30 degrees ( 27/28 I think ) for track racing and a NASCAR with 12 degrees specific for oval track.

Thanks for the kind words

 

[JohnyPiston]

The landscape isnt accurate, but the course layout is damn close. It is a slightly older version of the track though. Some of the walls have moved. There is a video of me driving the real one in a Mazda cup car in my sig. I see no major issues with the track in gt5.

Subsribed. Awesome channel 👍👍. Great driving in that Mazda.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'll put in supercharger or engine tuning instead of turbo, that would bring back the sound, if it can't reach the same HP, I'll swap in another engine that rev as quick I totally missed the sound issue . Getting more power (thousands) uses different approach than multiplying HP . Max wheel angle affects the car when driven, I'll share one of my car- not kart that has less than 30 degrees ( 27/28 I think ) for track racing and a NASCAR with 12 degrees specific for oval track.

Thanks for the kind words

Sounds good. Supercharger + engine tuning should get it to 45 hp I would think. Looking forward to trying the other cars:tup:👍 You da man!!!

 

[killerjimbag]

The camber in turn 9 in real life is much steeper than it is in the game.

In real life, you cannot take a wide line through that turn or you miss the banking all together. The fastest line in real life is through the middle; in the game you take a standard wide line.

I wish everyone would read what he says above,watch his video in his sig and get over it.It's not real folks,you get what you get in a video game.

 

[Bopop4]

Coming from the person who couldn't figure out why FR was more unstable than FF, runs automatic, and didn't know why a hybrid gave a boost via battery.


Notwithstanding the fact that a car will not roll on a slightly cambered surface.


Different tracks have different values for grip and wear. (At least they should do, running on the 'Ring better put more wear on the tires than at Daytona.)
And at least you don't have to suffer a ridiculous glare in almost every race car.




That shifter kart looks awesome. 👍
Any plans for a Superkart?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

That shifter kart looks awesome. 👍
Any plans for a Superkart?

Superkart ? Specs please , btw the shifter kart is on share on my account - add me if you want to try it and borrow glitch it 6 speed, 356cc 2 cylinder SOHC water cooled based on motorcycle engine with turbo - 47HP, 10/6 brake balance, SH tire and 30 degree max front wheel angle.

Would be a great kart for practice at Laguna Seca

 

[Bopop4]

The top ones use 250 twins from GP bikes, about 100hp.

It's going to weigh a bit more than a normal kart though. I'd guess around 450-500 pounds with the driver.

Oh, and they have downforce, wings and a flat bottom for ground effects.



It should hit at least 150mph, and lap around the same time as a V8 Supercar.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

The top ones use 250 twins from GP bikes, about 100hp.

It's going to weigh a bit more than a normal kart though. I'd guess around 450-500 pounds with the driver.

Oh, and they have downforce, wings and a flat bottom for ground effects.



It should hit at least 150mph, and lap around the same time as a V8 Supercar.

I think this can be done Not sure if it can be handled well by anyone

 

[Bopop4]

Well the wheelbase is a bit longer on a superkart but yeah, they're pretty insane.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Superkart ? Specs please , btw the shifter kart is on share on my account - add me if you want to try it and borrow glitch it 6 speed, 356cc 2 cylinder SOHC water cooled based on motorcycle engine with turbo - 47HP, 10/6 brake balance, SH tire and 30 degree max front wheel angle.

Would be a great kart for practice at Laguna Seca

You'll find enough here:
http://www.250superkarts.com/ABOUT250RACING.htm and here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superkart

I'm guessing the tires are probably closer to SS than anything else. Not sure if you can simulate the downforce they generate though but SS might be enough grip to simulate that. Has to be up around 200 kgs which you can get with ballast I suppose.

 

[MistyRainne]

Coming from the person who couldn't figure out why FR was more unstable than FF, runs automatic, and didn't know why a hybrid gave a boost via battery.

(Context, for people who aren’t him or me.)

I can certainly figure out why RWD is less stable than FWD (basically, the front and rear wheels’ efforts are in opposition to each other when steering; so RWD cuts itself off from part of the traction circle and tends to trip over itself in the process); my point in that post was about the fact that it’s unstable (demanding more driver skill and effort, without honoring that effort with anything that’s actually better than what FWD and/or 4WD can provide), and especially how there aren’t any high-powered FWD cars in the game (the FF layout is capable of accelerating as much as the GT By Citroën (with rearmost torque balance) going in reverse, so even just in terms of its one performance weak point, FWD is feasable up to at least the same PP level – upper 600s – but there are no FWD cars at that level, because RWD is culturally privileged).

A lot of people use ABS 1 despite disabling and forswearing all other aids. That’s a cultural convention, so you (being someone who swears by RWD) should have no objection to it. (That, and because RWD can’t even brake in a straight line without it.) My exception is for automatic transmission rather than ABS. That means I can’t focus on things like keeping the engine in its powerband, but in return, I can focus on dancing with my car’s larger and more usefully-shaped traction circle, with less distraction. It’s a tradeoff I knowingly and willingly make.

As for hybrid-electrics, I get that the engine can run faster to recharge the battery, but I don’t get why it also sends more power to the wheels during that time, and why it doesn’t always do that. More to the point, I haven’t found any way to control this, so the fact remains that the Prius has inconsistent performance, which is what earned it a mention in that thread.

Sorry, cupcake, I’m not as stupid as you need me to be. Which means you’re going to have to bring something useful to this discussion after all.

Notwithstanding the fact that a car will not roll on a slightly cambered surface.

In my testing, my car did just that.

Different tracks have different values for grip and wear.

That’s what I figured, for why Laguna Seca feels strange, but it doesn’t seem to have significantly different grip in general: braking, for example, doesn’t seem any faster or slower on Laguna Seca than anywhere else.

However, if the game can specify a track’s wear rate independently of grip level, then that may well explain it. If this is so, then tires should wear out faster at Laguna Seca than at tracks that don’t feel “sticky”. I may eventually get around to testing this!

 

[killerjimbag]

Did you say no high power front wheel drive cars in the game?
Maybe try this,without ABS and your automatic.Is 608 HP enough?

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5897744#post5897744

 

[iamsupernasty]

Fwd sucks.

RWD is better in every aspect on a race course.

You simply struggle with the skills required to use them properly.

FWD cars do not have more grip around turns, and do not have larger "traction circles" as you call it. It's simply easier to find the limit.

And RWD cars CAN brake without ABS. Again, you simply struggle with the skills required to use them properly.

Just because you are not talented and can only drive cars with training wheels, does not mean FWD is better.

There is a reason every race car at LeMans is RWD, why every F1 car is RWD, why every NASCAR is RWD, why V8 Supercars are RWD, etc, etc, etc.

----

BTW all this comes from a guy who owns a FWD race car in real life. Trust me, I'm not biased; I'm experienced and being honest.

 

[Aquarelle]

FWD is feasable up to at least the same PP level – upper 600s – but there are no FWD cars at that level, because RWD is culturally privileged).

Sorry to go off topic but there is a very good reason there are no high powered FWD cars - that's because generally speaking there aren't any.

The reason this is the case is because you're asking the front wheels to deliver power as well as steer, beyond a certain power threshold (About 400BHP seems to be the upper limit) understeer becomes too overwhelming and downright dangerous unless you use minimal throttle input, in which case a RWD/4WD car will go flying by..

While RWD can be seen as "Unstable" the only cause of this is the driver error, much like if you and I were to both drive FF cars you would destroy me due to your experience with the drive train.

While I am biased against FF due to my inexperience, it is an irrefutable reality that FWD can't handle high power levels while remaining safe and stable in the corners.

 

[Bopop4]

(Context, for people who aren’t him or me.)

I can certainly figure out why RWD is less stable than FWD (basically, the front and rear wheels’ efforts are in opposition to each other when steering; so RWD cuts itself off from part of the traction circle and tends to trip over itself in the process);

That made almost no sense whatsoever.


FF is more stable because it pulls you out of the turns instead of pushing.
That's it.

my point in that post was about the fact that it’s unstable (demanding more driver skill and effort, without honoring that effort with anything that’s actually better than what FWD and/or 4WD can provide)

Better than FF with mostly anything over 250hp.
Better than 4wd because it's lighter.

Almost every single high level race car is an MR, what does that tell you about it?

, and especially how there aren’t any high-powered FWD cars in the game

Because people don't make them.
It'd spin itself silly as soon as you got on the gas with 400hp.

(the FF layout is capable of accelerating as much as the GT By Citroën (with rearmost torque balance) going in reverse, so even just in terms of its one performance weak point, FWD is feasable up to at least the same PP level – upper 600s – but there are no FWD cars at that level, because RWD is culturally privileged).

Try drag racing a 400hp Civic vs a 400hp Starion, tell us who wins.

RWD is privileged because it is superior, as I explained above.

A lot of people use ABS 1 despite disabling and forswearing all other aids.
That’s a cultural convention, so you (being someone who swears by RWD)
should have no objection to it.

1. I never swore be RWD, FF can be just as quick if not quicker than an FR at the low hp range. And 4wd is better for slippery conditions.
2. I used ABS once and never touched it again.

(That, and because RWD can’t even brake in a straight line without it.)

Yes you can, just as easy as an FF in fact.

My exception is for automatic transmission rather than ABS. That means I can’t focus on things like keeping the engine in its powerband,

Since when is it hard to keep and engine in the powerband?
Unless you're using a small displacement 2-Stroke then you have no reason to complain about powerbands.

Just shift down to the gear you need to be in the the corner. 💡

but in return, I can focus on dancing with my car’s larger and more usefully-shaped traction circle, with less distraction. It’s a tradeoff I knowingly and willingly make.

You get no extra traction form using automatic, less even, because you don't know exactly when it'll shift down.

As for hybrid-electrics, I get that the engine can run faster to recharge the battery, but I don’t get why it also sends more power to the wheels during that time, and why it doesn’t always do that. More to the point, I haven’t found any way to control this, so the fact remains that the Prius has inconsistent performance, which is what earned it a mention in that thread.

You're driving a Prius on a track, the only way the battery should be charging is under braking. Thus, you get a sudden jolt of extra power when you come out of the corner. The duration of the extra power would be determined by how much regenerative braking had happened prior.

Sorry, cupcake, I’m not as stupid as you need me to be.

So far you've proved otherwise.

Which means you’re going to have to bring something useful to this discussion after all.

I just did.

*text*.

Pretty much.