What makes Nurb hard?

[DustDriver]

The hardest part for me is the unforgivingness of the schleife.
On other tracks, you can go beyond the boundaries and still recover if you're quick.
On this track, you already touched a wall or sent spinning.
In various areas of the track it's enough for 1 wheel to go on the grass to unbalance the car completely (because the road surface is also bumpy and pushes you further onto the grass)

B-spec bob actually drives faster than me in lm cars, because i want to push to much and to hard, which results in a lot of crashes.

But the nurburgring is still my favorite track in GT4, and i prefer to take a fast to mediocre car and just drive alone, so no AI car is in my way.

 

[Studentdriver]

For me, the thing that makes the 'ring difficult, apart from all the bloody blind corners and elevation changes, is that in GT4 the "sensation of velocity" is one of the few parameters that the programmers have not gotten quite right.
In GT4, I always "feel" that I am travelling quite a bit slower than I am in actuallity.
It makes it harder to gauge braking points, especially since there are no markers as there are on most other tracks.

If you use the chase cam then I can buy that, not necessarily though from the other views. However, in GT3 this problem is much worse with all cameras.

 

[Gil]

I now only use the "roof cam" view.
I still think the sensation of speed is less than in GT3 and especially GT2.
On a side note, I'd love to see GT and GT@ re-released in a "High-Def" version.
A bunch of years ago Lucasarts did this with "X-wing" and even though it was the same game, it took it to a new level.

 

[mattman_199]

I'm sorry, I think I missed the part where I said "I hate the Nurburgring". Point to me exactly where I said that, please.

Its not my favorite track, but I don't hate it.

The track has its easy sections and hard sections. Hard are the continouous set of sharp corners and easy is the ast straightaway.

Chill out man i didn't mean to imply you hated it. It was just a generalisation about people who do.

Point to me exactly where i said YOU hated it.

 

[Kent]

Yeah, see, step one screws that up for me. I have to play random lengths of Youtube videos in a background window to do this.

Who needs friends, anyway!??!

OTOH, while watching a Youtube incar video at work with, um, co-workers (not friends), I was describing upcoming turns and hills, brake points, etc., and was told to get a life.

I thought I had one!

Very funny. 👍

As for what makes the Ring so hard... I couldn't tell you, it's my easiest track.
I love running the Ring and because of that I've learned that either...
The Ring is hard because it is so long (probably very true).
Or
The Ring is only as hard as every other track.

Once you learn a track it is only as hard as the time you are trying to beat!

 

[V1P3R]

Decided I'd do my own comparison to see the difference, but I'm having difficulties because of two reason right off the bat...

1. GT4 no Pi rating.
2. Engine swaps or finding similar cars with similar specs.

Oh and the menu system makes me want to rip my hair out because it's opposite of the 360. Almost like going from a pc to a mac.

 

[FastFerrari]

i freakin love the ring...Gettin to know it and the corners was great...i spent almost 2 hrs on one lap... checking braking points, gear selection, how to turn into certain corners....it was great...now im ready to master it...just need better gear ratios...have my FGT and Toyota GT-1 down to 5:12's...with
the right gears i sure i can pull a 5:08's or 09's in the FGT....ne the Ring its self is amazing...by far the best track in world:tup:

 

[13thmonkey]

what do you use for settings on that gt one ?

 

[V1P3R]

Ok... a couple of thoughts. (Mind you I'm not trying to break records or impress anyone.)

I did GT4 in manual which I can't do on FM2 very well. I went off a couple of places in tight turns but I went off not because I didn't know the turn but because it was tighter and the physics is a lot different. The second lap I compensated better for this. Either way, FM2 must have made it easier to drive GT4's version even though it was a lot different via elevation changes and different looking turns. I found myself waiting for the physics to change and speed didn't seem fast untill I went off and hit the wall.

In FM2 it's definitely easier because of the better physics and wider track. The turns and elevation are different but I don't think one is easier than the other. One really big difference between GT4 and FM2 is that in FM2 going 100+ mph ACTUALLY LOOKS AND FEELS 100+ mph. I used an Automatic w/ only ABS on and I didn't go off track once.

In conclusion, Memorization isn't a problem for me, speed might on GT4 but then again it's hard on FM2 also. The turns and elevations are different but neither one is easier although FM2 is more fun naturally. With all this said I thought it was interesting I did a faster lap on GT4 than FM2. Also curious is that the starts are in different places for both games. Anyway, here are the results.

GT4:

Time: 8:49.865

Car: Skyline GT-R '89 (R32)
Weight: 1430kg (3153 lbs.)
Power: 275hp/6800rpm
Tyres: Sport Medium (S2)


FM2:

Time: 9:08.382

Car: Skyline R32 ('93)
Weight: 3153 lbs.
Power 295/7000rpm
Tyres: Sport (Pirelli)


edit: FM2 looks fairly accurate to me.



edit: I just realized I probably had Aids on with GT4 which would explain a little of why my time is faster in GT4. Although, IMO I don't need aids in FM2 because the physics are so good except for non-abs.


edit: Even more interesting... Again, speed didn't change anything especially with aids on in FM2 I loved it and it was fast. I only got 2 sec penalty (going on grass) too. Penalty time included in overall FM2 time. With the GT4 lap I was all over the place even with aids on and I think it was this really odd shudder at high speeds coupled with odd physics that made me go all over the place not the track layout. At any rate I don't know how I ended up with a faster time in GT4.

gt4

Time: 6:38.913 (aids on)

Car: R8
Power: 795hp (stock)
Tyres: Racing Mediums (R3)
Weight: 900kg ( 1984 lbs.)

FM2

Time: 6:49.382 (aids on)

Car: R8
Power: 695hp
Tyres: Stock
Weight: 1984 lbs.

 

[Christhedude]

i personally love the Nordschleife. I raced on it in real life and also driven on it with the privat car. On GT4 i managed to race around the ring without getting off the track ever. (not even grass).

Once you have the right rythem of the track in you its just as every other track.

 

[Scaff]

I did GT4 in manual which I can't do on FM2 very well. I went off a couple of places in tight turns but I went off not because I didn't know the turn but because it was tighter and the physics is a lot different. The second lap I compensated better for this. Either way, FM2 must have made it easier to drive GT4's version even though it was a lot different via elevation changes and different looking turns. I found myself waiting for the physics to change and speed didn't seem fast untill I went off and hit the wall.

Lets be honest, unless you can drive consistently across both games, then any lap time comparison is going to be flawed.

In FM2 it's definitely easier because of the better physics and wider track. The turns and elevation are different but I don't think one is easier than the other. One really big difference between GT4 and FM2 is that in FM2 going 100+ mph ACTUALLY LOOKS AND FEELS 100+ mph. I used an Automatic w/ only ABS on and I didn't go off track once.

In conclusion, Memorization isn't a problem for me, speed might on GT4 but then again it's hard on FM2 also. The turns and elevations are different but neither one is easier although FM2 is more fun naturally. With all this said I thought it was interesting I did a faster lap on GT4 than FM2. Also curious is that the starts are in different places for both games. Anyway, here are the results.

Sorry but I have to say that if you are finding the 'ring easy in FM2 then that's quite a worrying sign as far as FM2s version goes. It shouldn't be easy.

As far as the lap time difference goes, a couple of things spring to mind here. First the FM2 version of the track is longer overall (and its too long - I have used the odometer in GT4 to measure the track and its length is correct), secondly you admit to using driving aids in GT4 which will have a major impact in track time (and makes the entire comparison a bit useless).

As far as the start finish line goes, the GT4 one is the old 'historical' one, while the FM2 one is the newer one.

edit: FM2 looks fairly accurate to me.

I can't take a look at that one at the moment (as I am in work and they block youtube), but all the videos of FM2s 'ring I have seen show only minor improvements over the original version.

I have already mentioned the areas I believe FM2 has got wrong, camber, bumps and width; and its the last of these that helps make the track too easy. It opens a number of corners to the degree that they are no longer 'blind'. The difference between having sight of the corner exit or not makes a huge difference to how easy a track is to learn and drive (and you still insist on wondering why you find FM2s version easier to get to grips with).

I strongly suggest you have a look around for a copy of In-car 956, in which Derek Bell takes a Porsche 956 around the 'ring, in it you can both see and hear him talk about how the sheer number of blind corners make the track such a challenge.

You can put things like physics and personal preference to one side, they have no bearing on the accuracy of a track, and put bluntly GT4s version is currently to most accurate one around.

edit: I just realized I probably had Aids on with GT4 which would explain a little of why my time is faster in GT4. Although, IMO I don't need aids in FM2 because the physics are so good except for non-abs.

Explains a lot


Scaff

 

[V1P3R]

Ugh... it's really hard in TT.

 

[Greycap]

gt4

Time: 6:38.913 (aids on)

Car: R8
Power: 795hp (stock)
Tyres: Racing Mediums (R3)

Rrright... I have a damn good reason to think that you can't handle the car thus making the comparison worth nothing. That's a kind of a time I run with a 500 bhp R32 Skyline on R3 tyres, and more than half a minute slower than what I can do with a stock JGTC car on the same rubber. I'm not trying to say that I'm good, only that we need an opinion from someone that can take both games to the absolute limit. Your times are unfortunately nowhere even near.

- R -

 

[Famine]

Apropos of nothing...

What do you think makes the Nurb hard?

Spa-Francorchamps wearing French knickers.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I now only use the "roof cam" view.
I still think the sensation of speed is less than in GT3 and especially GT2.
On a side note, I'd love to see GT and GT@ re-released in a "High-Def" version.

Are you serious? I find GT3 has the slowest speed sensation of all. GT4 feels almost twice as fast (especially with the roof cam) and GT2 feels the fastest especially when you have the options set on "narrow", but that's also due to all the pixellation and pop-ups that keep...uh..popping up.

 

[Orion]

Are you serious? I find GT3 has the slowest speed sensation of all. GT4 feels almost twice as fast (especially with the roof cam) and GT2 feels the fastest especially when you have the options set on "narrow", but that's also due to all the pixellation and pop-ups that keep...uh..popping up.

Let's not forget the air whooshing sound when you start going really fast. In GT2 the test course felt faster, because there was actually a background to watch as you speed by, as well as bumpy corners that made the test course an actual track. 👍

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Let's not forget the air whooshing sound when you start going really fast. In GT2 the test course felt faster, because there was actually a background to watch as you speed by, as well as bumpy corners that made the test course an actual track. 👍

I read somewhere that the Test Track "bumps" are actually caused by tiny sections of the track. In other words, when they program the track, they had to do it in sections due to the PS1's limitations...and the edge of each section translates into a bump in GT1 and GT2.

On the other hand...the bumps in GT4/Nurb and Sarthe are intentional!

 

[Gil]

Are you serious? I find GT3 has the slowest speed sensation of all. GT4 feels almost twice as fast (especially with the roof cam) and GT2 feels the fastest especially when you have the options set on "narrow", but that's also due to all the pixellation and pop-ups that keep...uh..popping up.

For me, the speed sensation is "off" more in GT4 than in the other games.
Of course, I LIKED GT3 better than I like GT4 for the most part, and I probably had more hours of actual driving time in GT3 than I do in GT4. So, perhaps I am more used to the sensation in GT3.

And I have suggested (and I hope PD listens), a version of earlier games (GT and GT2) made specifically for the PS2 or PS3 platform in the 'HI-DEF" that is possible with either platform would be welcome as far as I'm concerned.
I don't believe that that much code would have to be updated, but the high-resolution graphics would "wake-up" the classic GT games. I for one would buy them.

Before any of the gangs shoots me down, go grab your original version, and pop it in the PS2. Does it run as well as in the PSone? NO. Does it often lock up the PS2? Yes. So, there is a "need".
Hell, it worked for Lucasarts when they did it with "X-wing"...

 

[Steve_O]

i think its bumpy-ness, can throw a fast car off easily, and the fact that it has alot of blind corners and the track is long so you cant really memorize the corners. By the time you come over a hill its too late to brake and your in the grass.

 

[McLaren]

edit: FM2 looks fairly accurate to me.

Of course it's going to look more accurate! You're showing a video of a bike compared a car. And last I checked, thanks to a bike's size compared to a car, it's going to have more room on the course to manuever.

But even then, what are you saying it accurate? The layout? The fact that the turns are all in order? We're talking about the accuracy of the curves, not their order of appearance. Forza 2's accuracy is poop.

Now, let's actually use a good videos of a car.


Notice how narrow it gets compared to a bike's point of view. And even though it's been a while, I don't think the vegetation on FM2's is even realistic either. Scaff can probably confirm though on that.

C'mon DWA, you should at least know FM2's Nurburgring was going to be unrealistic when you saw how wide they made it.

 

[Kurei]

What makes Nurb hard is probably its line, it changes so often that it can be hard to adapt to each variation in it.

Example, You may have a right-hand turn, thats a medium sized sweeper, and then right after that a tight left hand turn, that line may be hard to adjust to for some given the time they have between one and another

 

[RICHARDO]

Am I really the only one that has no trouble driving this track in GT4, regardless of car choice?

What's wrong with me? Why am I so good?

I think I'll go drive the Ring all night now until my PS2 hangs itself.

 

[Perfect Balance]

The 'ring is hard?



I must have missed something then.

 

[Orion]

Am I really the only one that has no trouble driving this track in GT4, regardless of car choice?

What's wrong with me? Why am I so good?

I think I'll go drive the Ring all night now until my PS2 hangs itself.

Ohh you are not alone. I was there driving a RUF CTR2 in the New York Auto Show, playing GT4 with random people. I had lap times of under 7 minutes on Sport Soft tires with ease, it had around 600HP or so, with a good suspension setup. The other guy was in a Ford GT, around 735HP or so, and he had a lap time of 7'03.031 which is really bad for a car that he bought a wing for, and tweaked everything on it. He spun out around 12 times, even once on the karrousel.

The Nurburgring is a track without forgiveness I'll tell you that. Start sliding and swerving everywhere, this track is going to make you pay. You have to have concetration to maintain such good driving for such a board. Drifting is hard to do because of the bumps, which makes the drift even more unpredictable.

 

[ChampCarFan]

The nurb is easy to remember for me i dont know why..?

 

[wfooshee]

I didn't have any trouble with it either, once I'd done the 3rd or 4th hundred laps.

 

[V1P3R]

Of course it's going to look more accurate! You're showing a video of a bike compared a car. And last I checked, thanks to a bike's size compared to a car, it's going to have more room on the course to manuever.

First of all I took the first clearest video OF THE TRACK I could find. I don't give a .... if it's on a bike or not. Even then there's a picture of a car so you can get a scale of it with a car from there.

As for you and everyone else saying it's THAT off... I still don't see it in any of those videos. Yeah yeah... so..... what the Scenery looks different than in real life. So...... what FM2 took creative license in making the scenery better.

 

[Scaff]

First of all I took the first clearest video OF THE TRACK I could find. I don't give a .... if it's on a bike or not. Even then there's a picture of a car so you can get a scale of it with a car from there.

As for you and everyone else saying it's THAT off... I still don't see it in any of those videos. Yeah yeah... so..... what the Scenery looks different than in real life. So...... what FM2 took creative license in making the scenery better.

It doesn't have to be that far 'off' to make a huge difference to the corner, the example I have always used is the FUCHSRÖHRE TO METZGESFELD section of the 'ring...



...in GT4 this section was always a real challenge (exactly as it should be and is described), in FM1 at least the challenge of this corner is gone. The first time I drove it on FM I honestly didn't realise I had gone through it. The widening of the track opens it up to the degree that it is no longer blind, in addition the lack of bumps made it far easier to keep control of the car under braking.

From what I have seen FM2 has done little to change any of this. I will also however add personal experience to this, in terms of accuracy of width and corner make-up GT4 and Enthusia are the closest we currently have, FM2 is simply too wide.

However let me ask you a question, can you pop FM2 on for me when you have a chance and let us all know exactly how long they say the track is, because in FM it was wrong.

Thanks

Scaff

 

[13thmonkey]

That piece about the Fuchsrohe was interesting.
Does something like that come for every part of the track and if so where can i find them ?

 

[Scaff]

That piece about the Fuchsrohe was interesting.
Does something like that come for every part of the track and if so where can i find them ?

It is from a free guide to the 'ring and yes every corner is covered in that much detail (along with some brief history), download the full .pdf from here....

http://www.bmw.com/generic/com/en/fascination/bmwm/automobiles/specials/_pdf/bmwm_nordschleife.pdf

...regards

Scaff