What will it be of GT once Kaz retires or well...

[Tornado]

There are no hard figures any more recent than the Japanese market figures up to the first half of 2014.

 

[jimipitbull]

Comparing the Forza 5 vs. GT6 DLC, it's pretty clear that somewhere along the way Kaz's passion for motorsport isn't being translated to the game very well. Hopefully that will change for GT7. If not, I'd rather have the guy with less passion thank you very much.

Compare the amount of bugs and glitches between GT6 and pCars. I'd rather have Kaz.

 

[FoRiZon]

I didn't buy any other racing game because they had a rockstar dev lead. I bought them because I thought (or I knew) that they were good games.

Lol i think about John Romero by thinking of that.

 

[Tenacious D]

It would depend on how whoever, or whomever, 'takes the throne' actually treats & interacts with us, the end-user.

This is an old meme that's irrelevant. Code"masters" hangs out with the fans too, but no amount of community involvement made any of their games equally stellar. GRID Autosport was a dud, while Dirt 3 was highly regarded and made a few sales.

Kojima doesn't hang with the fans, but his games, contrary to certain opinions here, are top notch.

Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if community involvement resulted in that awful Top Gear Bowling being thrown right smack in the middle of Forza 4's career chain. Can Car Soccer be next? Gad...

Furthermore, it has been mentioned a number of times that Kaz and the team are monitoring the boards like here and NeoGAF for sensible requests and suggestions. And after all, this is the community involvement that really counts, isn't it.

 

[Kurei]

This is an old meme that's irrelevant. Code"masters" hangs out with the fans too, but no amount of community involvement made any of their games equally stellar. GRID Autosport was a dud, while Dirt 3 was highly regarded and made a few sales.

Kojima doesn't hang with the fans, but his games, contrary to certain opinions here, are top notch.

Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if community involvement resulted in that awful Top Gear Bowling being thrown right smack in the middle of Forza 4's career chain. Can Car Soccer be next? Gad...

Furthermore, it has been mentioned a number of times that Kaz and the team are monitoring the boards like here and NeoGAF for sensible requests and suggestions. And after all, this is the community involvement that really counts, isn't it.

Holy thread revival Batman.

Also, what 'meme' here do you see ?, because I see none, no pics no nothing, just simple past discussion.

You're looking for a fight or something, aren't ya' ?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Holy thread revival Batman.

Also, what 'meme' here do you see ?, because I see none, no pics no nothing, just simple past discussion.

You're looking for a fight or something, aren't ya' ?

I think what TenD is doing is justifying the epic fail of Kaz not responding to the Kaz Q&A by saying that listening to fans doesn't help other franchises and anyway, PD is secretly watching GTP for "sensible requests and suggestions". Perhaps that why he posts the same things over and over and over. He thinks Kaz is watching

 

[Kurei]

I think what TenD is doing is justifying the epic fail of Kaz not responding to the Kaz Q&A by saying that listening to fans doesn't help other franchises and anyway, PD is secretly watching GTP for "sensible requests and suggestions". Perhaps that why he posts the same things over and over and over. He thinks Kaz is watching

Sounds like fanboy-ism at it's finest (and knowing he's left-out the rest of my post explaining what he quoted, I'd say it's confirmed )

 

[Griffith500]

Holy thread revival Batman.

Twelve days between posts is not necroing.

Also, what 'meme' here do you see ?, because I see none, no pics no nothing, just simple past discussion.

Memetics is bigger than you.

You're looking for a fight or something, aren't ya' ?

It's a legitimate argument: community involvement is 90% marketing, in most cases. A lot of it is posturing, being seen to be doing the right thing, effort which may have better been spent on actually doing the right thing. This does not excuse GT's faults.

 

[Kurei]

Twelve days between posts is not necroing.

Never said it was necro', but bringing it up this late still leaves one to question motives.

Memetics is bigger than you.

And the Internet, You (Still didn't answer how my original post is a 'meme')

It's a legitimate argument: community involvement is 90% marketing, in most cases. A lot of it is posturing, being seen to be doing the right thing, effort which may have better been spent on actually doing the right thing. This does not excuse GT's faults.

Dude, we've moved on. You guys want a fight go take it up with someone else, we ain't interested anymore.

 

[Griffith500]

Never said it was necro', but bringing it up this late still leaves one to question motives.

It's not "late" at all, is my point. Not everyone is on here day in, day out. I can't see how the (ir)relevance of the tangent has changed in that short time.

And the Internet, You (Still didn't answer how my original post is a 'meme')

I did, actually. Memes are not just silly pictures, why don't you use the internet and find out for yourself what memetics actually is? Otherwise, I have to question your motives for choosing to remain ignorant.

Dude, we've moved on. You guys want a fight go take it up with someone else, we ain't interested anymore.

This is a new one. So to avoid having to defend your argument, you make the assertion that the world isn't interested any more (unless your definition of "we" is more constrained than that, implying that that "we" is somehow more representative / important than whatever group I'm supposed to be a part of, implicitly excluded from your "we"). Which calls into question your motives, once again.

If you regret making the post, fine. You can't force others to ignore it, either way. Deal with it.

 

[NLxAROSA]

I would buy GT7 (and a PS4) if it's a great game, regardless of whose name is on the box.

It's a legitimate argument: community involvement is 90% marketing, in most cases. A lot of it is posturing, being seen to be doing the right thing, effort which may have better been spent on actually doing the right thing.

The latter is very much true. Though doing the right thing and being involved in the community doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. We can see that some companies are trying to change this, wether they will succeed is still to be determined. However, there's a line crossed when involvement is promised and subsequently not delivered without any explanation. That's just disrespectful (and IMO downright insulting) to your customers. So in this particular case it's not a valid argument at all.

 

[Tornado]

It's a legitimate argument

No it isn't. Oh, it could be, certainly; and this here how you explained it:

community involvement is 90% marketing, in most cases. A lot of it is posturing, being seen to be doing the right thing, effort which may have better been spent on actually doing the right thing.

Actually is; though since PD explicitly presented community as a part of "doing the right thing" and then didn't even do as much compared to the game that they were responding to criticism for, it really doesn't apply in the context of what Tenacious D took issue with. Nor is the argument you presented really what Tenacious D said in the first place.

 

[Johnnypenso]

It's a legitimate argument: community involvement is 90% marketing, in most cases. A lot of it is posturing, being seen to be doing the right thing, effort which may have better been spent on actually doing the right thing. This does not excuse GT's faults.

You are very fond of pointing out, and rightly so I might add, the effort in one area does not preclude effort in another. Modelers don't work on sound for example, something you've pointed out many times. Quite disingenuous don't you think to then make the inference that this "posturing" effort would in any way impact "actually doing the right thing", especially considering they could handle all this posturing with the part time efforts of a single person or farm it out to a marketing firm if necessary.

 

[Kurei]

It's not "late" at all, is my point. Not everyone is on here day in, day out. I can't see how the (ir)relevance of the tangent has changed in that short time.

My quoted post was made on the 9th, today is the 24th. @Tenacious D was online that same day (go check his profile). Do some basic math and that gives him 15 prior days (not including today) to bring up his issue/argument/whathaveyou. Why would he wait that long, active or not, to bring this up after the original date ? - As I've joked, he must want a fight, has a GT-defense itch to scratch, or something else I'm not interested in.

I did, actually. Memes are not just silly pictures, why don't you use the internet and find out for yourself what memetics actually is? Otherwise, I have to question your motives for choosing to remain ignorant.

See, now you're the ignorant one for wanting to start 🤬 again, rather than take the humor in the response and moving on. I'm not interested in arguing politics over a video game, especially with you & your 'everyone is wrong but me' mentality a lot of GT defenders seem to have lately. I've stated my opinion in my original post, and that's all I should be concerned with, yet here I am being brought back into an argument because someone has a bone to pick.

If you regret making the post, fine. You can't force others to ignore it, either way. Deal with it.

I don't regret anything, except maybe saying "We" instead of "I" as I should of. But whatever makes you feel cool bro'

 

[Griffith500]

@Kurei I didn't realise posts expired after two weeks. Sorry for not spotting your "humour" sooner. But you're still wrong about misinterpreting the usage of the word meme. Only you can help that. The reason I'm so often right, by the way (and thanks for noticing), is because I'm more often wrong.

I don't think you really know why I contribute on these fora, and to lump me with your definition of "GT defenders" once again belies your motives. You keep bringing yourself back into the argument; if it bothers you that much, put me on ignore, otherwise deal with it.

No it isn't. Oh, it could be, certainly; and this here how you explained it:

Actually is; though since PD explicitly presented community as a part of "doing the right thing" and then didn't even do as much compared to the game that they were responding to criticism for, it really doesn't apply in the context of what Tenacious D took issue with. Nor is the argument you presented really what Tenacious D said in the first place.

Well, OK, I missed a lot of the context, I suppose. But the flat refusal to entertain the discussion on nonsensical grounds is no better, and is really all I saw if I'm honest.

You are very fond of pointing out, and rightly so I might add, the effort in one area does not preclude effort in another. Modelers don't work on sound for example, something you've pointed out many times. Quite disingenuous don't you think to then make the inference that this "posturing" effort would in any way impact "actually doing the right thing", especially considering they could handle all this posturing with the part time efforts of a single person or farm it out to a marketing firm if necessary.

As you're very fond of pointing out, it all costs money at the end of the day. Maybe I was using effort as a synonym for money, since you also like personal definitions.

Speaking of personal, I like the attempt to turn this into a us vs. them thing. Keep grinding that axe.


Bear in mind I never said I don't want the things I want in games to actually end up in games. How that happens is irrelevant, so long as it actually happens.

 

[Kurei]

@Kurei I didn't realise posts expired after two weeks. Sorry for not spotting your "humour" sooner. But you're still wrong about misinterpreting the usage of the word meme. Only you can help that. The reason I'm so often right, by the way (and thanks for noticing), is because I'm more often wrong.

They don't, and I never said they do expire, mind you, but would you be happy, if someone quoted an opinion of yours, from weeks ago, to further 'their side' (or w/e you want to call it) of a discussion, for no real reason other than to try and single you out, about 1 & 1/2 weeks after the discussion went quiet ?

I don't think you really know why I contribute on these fora, and to lump me with your definition of "GT defenders" once again belies your motives. You keep bringing yourself back into the argument; if it bothers you that much, put me on ignore, otherwise deal with it.

Nor do I care, you butted-in on your own watch, with no provocation from others towards you, simply to paint me the bad guy, wrong, or something else. Was it really necessary ?.

 

[Maldoxx]

Well, if the Kaz sucessor makes a good game, I would buy it.

 

[Griffith500]

Indeed. I hope Kaz is happy in whatever he ends up doing, but if anyone makes a good game (and I'll be the judge of that, based on the end product), then I'm in. But then, that's nothing that hasn't already been said.

They don't, and I never said they do expire, mind you, but would you be happy, if someone quoted an opinion of yours, from weeks ago, to further 'their side' (or w/e you want to call it) of a discussion, for no real reason other than to try and single you out, about 1 & 1/2 weeks after the discussion went quiet ?

Nor do I care, you butted-in on your own watch, with no provocation from others towards you, simply to paint me the bad guy, wrong, or something else. Was it really necessary ?.

So you're saying that's not your opinion any more? That would have been easier to say from the start, wouldn't it? Because your post really doesn't indicate that at all.

This is a public forum, incidentally. Perhaps bear that in mind the next time you post, in case you don't want anyone to reply to it.

 

[Kurei]

So you're saying that's not your opinion any more? That would have been easier to say from the start, wouldn't it? Because your post really doesn't indicate that at all.

This is a public forum, incidentally. Perhaps bear that in mind the next time you post, in case you don't want anyone to reply to it.

You're missing the point.

 

[Griffith500]

You're missing the point.

View attachment 373086

If your point was that the failure of the Q&A session is indicative of a lack of respect for "us", then maybe that's the case. It may, of course, be indicative of other things, too.

But having "community interaction" is not necessarily what it's cracked up to be, either, in the general case, for reasons I mentioned.


If you're trying to make a point beyond that, I must have missed it amongst all the nonsensical dismissals, deflections and general avoidance.

Nice meme.

 

[Maldoxx]

C'mon folks, stop with this nonsense fight and let's discuss the subject of the thread.

 

[Tenacious D]

My quoted post was made on the 9th, today is the 24th. @Tenacious D was online that same day (go check his profile).

Excuse me, but I don't have all day to forage through posts here, evidently like you do. On top of that, MS in its uninfinite wisdom, or lack thereof, has bestowed yet another install of Windoze on my PC which causes it to reboot, half the time with the websites refreshed, the other half closing them. So I'm not actually here every time GT Planet says "I" am. For that matter, I've had posts quoted and Liked from many moons back, so if you think 15 days is a small eternity, you must be young.

But going on with the first point, sometimes I just peek at thread titles before work to see if anything interesting has come along. And in case you haven't noticed, this particular board is moving at a snail's pace, as is this thread. I look at posts I haven't seen, and if I feel moved to respond to them, I don't feel the need to ask permissal before I do. Nor do I see any requirement here for such a thing.

Now as to the points I made in my post, I don't see anything particularly outrageous in it.

• I don't see any evidence that community involvement by a developer results in anything particularly wonderful or spectacular or funky fresh from them, in contrast to those developers which don't hang with the peeps. I don't see better or more innovative games. I don't see mind blowing new features, compared to those who deem it unnecessary to swap posts with us boardy types. Sure, Insomniac does things like hold contests with the fans to design a weird new weapon for the next Ratchet & Clank game, but surely you know that's just something cute to do with the loyal fans and... what, thrills 50 whole people there? The only thing I get from such a situation is the fans feel more loved somehow. Oh yes, and the guys from the company also catch a lot of flack. Quite the mixed bag.
• Along these lines, I see plenty of evidence that Kaz and the team are indeed paying attention to this site and others, or at least the input from gamers is sifted through for anything of actual value, other than "the cars all sound like Hoovers." For instance, a lot of complaining about those car sounds was made. Kaz has noted in interviews - after all, I think he gets asked about the sounds in every interview - that he's aware of the ire of some gamers over the quality of the sounds in Gran Turismo. Sounds in both GT5 and 6 have improved in many cars dramatically. Have you listened to a NASCAR race car wind down after a race? It has an amazing multilayer soundfile. The HSV racer has quite the whine, and the Red Bull prototypes have something serious going on. A number of race cars sound quite different. Damage in the early months of 2009 looked... well, bad, like some of the putty-body effects in Toca but worse, and fans complained. It was scrapped for something much simpler. A bunch of us wanted Race Mod to return in GT5, and it did. But it wasn't quite what we wanted with basic half-baked liveries, and it was all of 17 cars, so evidently it was canned for GT6, I'm supposing until it reaches something more next gen in quality.

I could go on with stuff we requested here - racing suits and helmets for instance. So to carry on as if paying attention to the fans is so beneath his majesty Kaz is a bit much. Excuse me for saying so. If that's a fight to you, oh well.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Excuse me, but I don't have all day to forage through posts here, evidently like you do. On top of that, MS in its uninfinite wisdom, or lack thereof, has bestowed yet another install of Windoze on my PC which causes it to reboot, half the time with the websites refreshed, the other half closing them. So I'm not actually here every time GT Planet says "I" am. For that matter, I've had posts quoted and Liked from many moons back, so if you think 15 days is a small eternity, you must be young.

But going on with the first point, sometimes I just peek at thread titles before work to see if anything interesting has come along. And in case you haven't noticed, this particular board is moving at a snail's pace, as is this thread. I look at posts I haven't seen, and if I feel moved to respond to them, I don't feel the need to ask permissal before I do. Nor do I see any requirement here for such a thing.

Now as to the points I made in my post, I don't see anything particularly outrageous in it.

• I don't see any evidence that community involvement by a developer results in anything particularly wonderful or spectacular or funky fresh from them, in contrast to those developers which don't hang with the peeps. I don't see better or more innovative games. I don't see mind blowing new features, compared to those who deem it unnecessary to swap posts with us boardy types. Sure, Insomniac does things like hold contests with the fans to design a weird new weapon for the next Ratchet & Clank game, but surely you know that's just something cute to do with the loyal fans and... what, thrills 50 whole people there? The only thing I get from such a situation is the fans feel more loved somehow. Oh yes, and the guys from the company also catch a lot of flack. Quite the mixed bag.
• Along these lines, I see plenty of evidence that Kaz and the team are indeed paying attention to this site and others, or at least the input from gamers is sifted through for anything of actual value, other than "the cars all sound like Hoovers." For instance, a lot of complaining about those car sounds was made. Kaz has noted in interviews - after all, I think he gets asked about the sounds in every interview - that he's aware of the ire of some gamers over the quality of the sounds in Gran Turismo. Sounds in both GT5 and 6 have improved in many cars dramatically. Have you listened to a NASCAR race car wind down after a race? It has an amazing multilayer soundfile. The HSV racer has quite the whine, and the Red Bull prototypes have something serious going on. A number of race cars sound quite different. Damage in the early months of 2009 looked... well, bad, like some of the putty-body effects in Toca but worse, and fans complained. It was scrapped for something much simpler. A bunch of us wanted Race Mod to return in GT5, and it did. But it wasn't quite what we wanted with basic half-baked liveries, and it was all of 17 cars, so evidently it was canned for GT6, I'm supposing until it reaches something more next gen in quality.

I could go on with stuff we requested here - racing suits and helmets for instance. So to carry on as if paying attention to the fans is so beneath his majesty Kaz is a bit much. Excuse me for saying so. If that's a fight to you, oh well.

So Kaz listened to the handful of people that asked for suits and helmets and not the many, many more that wanted better AI, a full flag system and standing starts in career mode, among dozens of other things. Oh, and an E30 and a premium Supra. Right then.

 

[Griffith500]

So Kaz listened to the handful of people that asked for suits and helmets and not the many, many more that wanted better AI, a full flag system and standing starts in career mode, among dozens of other things. Oh, and an E30 and a premium Supra. Right then.

Ah, the precious imagined majority rears its ugly head. Replete with poster-child E30. Wonderful.

So all the things that PD included from listening to people other than yourself, don't count as listening to the community, basically.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Ah, the precious imagined majority rears its ugly head. Replete with poster-child E30. Wonderful.

So all the things that PD included from listening to people other than yourself, don't count as listening to the community, basically.

No. I just don't believe the fallacious, "we're silently listening to the community" argument is proven because we received a couple of things out of hundreds asked for.

 

[Griffith500]

No. I just don't believe the fallacious, "we're silently listening to the community" argument is proven because we received a couple of things out of hundreds asked for.

OK. I suppose, then, you think Kaz is lying when he has mentioned that he is aware of things people ask for?

 

[Tenacious D]

So Kaz listened to the handful of people that asked for suits and helmets and not the many, many more that wanted better AI, a full flag system and standing starts in career mode, among dozens of other things. Oh, and an E30 and a premium Supra. Right then.

Seriously, Johnnypencil, I did mention a few more things than that, and could have gone on.

I'd consider Griffith's question carefully, considering the number of times that GT Planet people and affiliates have held interviews with Kazunori, and he has acknowledged our existence and our wishes. He has indeed responded to tweets, and did the Q & A board for a while. And we did get many of our requests. Plus, keep in mind that I'm not up on exactly how many racers have a working FULL flag system, but in my experience it's not all that many, so I guess they suck too? So rofl all you want, it just makes your presence here as a "fan" all the more questionable, when all you seem to do is argue with the real fans. I'm thinking you'd be much happier frolicking on the actual P CARS forum, or the GRID A forums, assuming they're even active these days.

 

[Tornado]

OK. I suppose, then, you think Kaz is lying when he has mentioned that he is aware of things people ask for?

I'd certainly say that what Kaz includes in GT games (perhaps part of his famous "vision") and what he's aware people want in GT games at best occasionally coincide with each other rather than have any actual cause and effect relationship, yes.

 

[Tenacious D]

Since you like to challenge virtually every post you come across, Tor, I'll return the flavor. What is your justification for such a position?

 

[Griffith500]

I'd certainly say that what Kaz includes in GT games (perhaps part of his famous "vision") and what he's aware people want in GT games at best occasionally coincide with each other rather than have any actual cause and effect relationship, yes.

So you're saying he lied about including damage because people asked for it, despite it being something he specifically didn't want to include? Or, more recently, Midfield?

Incidentally, I doubt many games developers wouldn't choose the low hanging fruit from the "most demanded" features list that best coincided with and complemented any pre-existing design document. It's only sensible.

I talk about this imagined majority, because I saw (and was victim to) its power on the WMD boards. Anyone that differed from the "majority opinion" was effectively ignored by the developers and subsequently quelled by the community.