When is abortion wrong?

[Swift]

That makes zero difference. She chooses at each instant what she will permit with her own body - she owns it.

And I'm saying that she's giving up part of that ownership of the decision to have a baby when she has sex. I'm not talking about anything else but the baby.

She doesn't own the child inside her. It belongs to her AND the father.

 

[Famine]

Should've thought of that BEFORE having sex.


EDIT:
Shoot, if that's the case. Then the father should be able to abandon the child and say, "I wanted her to get an abortion, but she didn't". That wouldn't fly with the state dept. So if it's ok to hook the man after the baby is born, then he should have a say before it is born as well.

So, you'd REALLY want a woman to risk her life simply because you think a 200 cell blastocyst has a soul?

Pregnancy has a whole host of problems associated with it and can be fatal (even in this day and age). I'm not about to tell a woman she MUST carry any mistake she makes to term at the risk of her own health. Are people not allowed to make mistakes, Swift? If not, how can they learn from them? And how well does someone learn from their mistakes if they are dead?


Sex is a recreational activity. We are quite unusual in that we have sex for the pleasure of having sex and not reproduction - in fact only bonobo apes and dolphins do it for fun in the animal kingdom.

She doesn't own the child inside her. It belongs to her AND the father.

And if they BOTH decide to have an abortion? After all, the foetus belongs to both of them...

 

[Swift]

So, you'd REALLY want a woman to risk her life simply because you think a 200 cell blastocyst has a soul?

Pregnancy has a whole host of problems associated with it and can be fatal (even in this day and age). I'm not about to tell a woman she MUST carry any mistake she makes to term at the risk of her own health. Are people not allowed to make mistakes, Swift? If not, how can they learn from them? And how well does someone learn from their mistakes if they are dead?


Sex is a recreational activity. We are quite unusual in that we have sex for the pleasure of having sex and not reproduction - in fact only bonobo apes and dolphins do it for fun in the animal kingdom.

Ah, but do you see what I'm saying. If the concept of the possibility of having a child is clear before having sex, then there isn't an issue.

About making mistakes. Some are more costly then others. If a couple decides to be dumb and enter into a sexual relationship thinking that "they" could never have a baby, the mistake was made before they ever had sex. So why should the child be punished because the parents made a mistake?

It all comes back to a simple thought. If you don't want the chance of having a baby, don't have sex.

And if they BOTH decide to have an abortion? After all, the foetus belongs to both of them...

As stated before, I'm very much against abortion exept in extreme cases of criminal intent or health.

 

[Famine]

So you confer ownership of a non-viable cellular bundle but deny any of the "privileges" that come with that ownership? Bizarre.


Why should the MOTHER be punished with her possible death (and probable continuing health problems) for a mistake made by the COUPLE?

 

[Swift]

So you confer ownership of a non-viable cellular bundle but deny any of the "privileges" that come with that ownership? Bizarre.


Why should the MOTHER be punished with her possible death (and probable continuing health problems) for a mistake made by the COUPLE?

uh, because she was part of what brought all that on in the first place. Come on, do you think that any women in either of our countries doesn't know that having sex can get them pregnant? So she KNOWS going into it. It's not like cancer that can get anyone. She knows what the possible consequences are and she still takes the risk. So yes, it's on both parents. I'm not saying it's soley on the mother, but if she doesn't want the possible health risks of being pregnant, DON'T have sex.

Is it really that hard to see? I know you're a very intelligent guy Famine. What I'm saying virtually eliminates the need for abortions. Not just trying to define what is an abortion and what is murder.

 

[Danoff]

And I'm saying that she's giving up part of that ownership of the decision to have a baby when she has sex. I'm not talking about anything else but the baby.

She doesn't own the child inside her. It belongs to her AND the father.

It doesn't belong to the father until it is legally a child (ie: has a name or identification). It doesn't belong to the father until it is no longer physically part of the mother.

The mother does not give up ownership of her body when she chooses to have sex. The fetus insider her does not own her body (that's what this whole discussion is about), she owns her body. The fetus is not a citizen, it has no rights, no legal power, it is a growth within the mother that she controls until it is a separated individual.

She owns the fetus inside her because it is part of her. The father does not own the fetus insider her because it is not part of him.

 

[Swift]

It doesn't belong to the father until it is legally a child (ie: has a name or identification). It doesn't belong to the father until it is no longer physically part of the mother.

The mother does not give up ownership of her body when she chooses to have sex. The fetus insider her does not own her body (that's what this whole discussion is about), she owns her body. The fetus is not a citizen, it has no rights, no legal power, it is a growth within the mother that she controls until it is a separated individual.

She owns the fetus inside her because it is part of her. The father does not own the fetus insider her because it is not part of him.

You realize that makes no sense since she could never have the fetus without the father, right?

 

[Famine]

uh, because she was part of what brought all that on in the first place. Come on, do you think that any women in either of our countries doesn't know that having sex can get them pregnant? So she KNOWS going into it. It's not like cancer that can get anyone. She knows what the possible consequences are and she still takes the risk. So yes, it's on both parents. I'm not saying it's soley on the mother, but if she doesn't want the possible health risks of being pregnant, DON'T have sex.

Is it really that hard to see? I know you're a very intelligent guy Famine. What I'm saying virtually eliminates the need for abortions. Not just trying to define what is an abortion and what is murder.

So a COUPLE make a mistake, the WOMAN dies and the MAN gets off scot-free?

 

[Swift]

So a COUPLE make a mistake, the WOMAN dies and the MAN gets off scot-free?

If that's his wife, is he getting off scott free?

No, the couple was STUPID and assumed that it wouldn't happen to them. Sorry, but that's how it is.

 

[Danoff]

You realize that makes no sense since she could never have the fetus without the father, right?

No, it makes perfect sense. She could never have a breast implant without a plastic surgeon - but she owns it after the operation because it is part of her body.

I could never have a job if my parents didn't bring me into the world, but that doesn't mean they get the cash I earn.

Look, I don't care how it got there - it is part of the mother's body physiologically, and so it is under her control.

 

[Famine]

If that's his wife, is he getting off scott free?

If my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle.

No, the couple was STUPID and assumed that it wouldn't happen to them. Sorry, but that's how it is.

Still, a COUPLE make the mistake. The WOMAN dies as a result of a joint decision. The MAN does not - and indeed suffers no health consequences of any variety. Does that seem right to you?

If they make a joint decision then surely they must both suffer the consequences of making an error of judgement - not one or the other of them.

 

[ledhed]

you forget about those who have taken all reasonable precaution against getting pregnant and still concieve. They have already determined before the act NOT to have a baby. So you would force the women against her will to bring a baby she never wanted to term ? Seems like something that would be done in the middle ages.
If men could get pregnant their would be no issue. Abortion would be as common as rubbers in a wallet. Its easy to sit back and make rules that force something on someone else.

 

[Swift]

The answer to all three of your statements is still the same.

If the couple agrees to engage in an action that puts woman's health at risk, that's on them. I didn't ask them to do it. I'm just taking away the "get out of responsiblity free" card. That's what abortion does, it takes away the responsibility of having sex.

Famine, you've made some fairly extreme, yet realistic examples as to when an abortion might be helpful. But as I've said before. In the case of extreme health risk and the only option is an abortion, then that's how it is.

 

[Danoff]

If the couple agrees to engage in an action that puts woman's health at risk, that's on them. I didn't ask them to do it. I'm just taking away the "get out of responsiblity free" card.

No, you're advocating removal of a woman's control over her own body.

 

[Swift]

No, you're advocating removal of a woman's control over her own body.

No I'm advocating the removal of easily getting out of the responsibility of your actions.

 

[Danoff]

No I'm advocating the removal of easily getting out of the responsibility of your actions.

By preventing women from controling their own bodies.

 

[Swift]

By preventing women from controling their own bodies.

Actually, I'm saying THINK before you act. It's really simple. and quite frankly doesn't really depend on your spiritual viewpoint. If a woman engages in consensual sex, then there is a chance for pregnancy. She knows that going in. So, if she is not trying to be pregnant or doesn't want a child. Then she simply shouldn't have sex.

That's really really simple.

 

[Danoff]

Actually, I'm saying THINK before you act. It's really simple. and quite frankly doesn't really depend on your spiritual viewpoint. If a woman engages in consensual sex, then there is a chance for pregnancy. She knows that going in. So, if she is not trying to be pregnant or doesn't want a child. Then she simply shouldn't have sex.

...or be on birth control. I don't have a problem with this part of your message, but what does this have to do with abortion?

That's the part where you tell women they can't control their own bodies.

 

[Famine]

The answer to all three of your statements is still the same.

If the couple agrees to engage in an action that puts woman's health at risk, that's on them. I didn't ask them to do it. I'm just taking away the "get out of responsiblity free" card. That's what abortion does, it takes away the responsibility of having sex.

Famine, you've made some fairly extreme, yet realistic examples as to when an abortion might be helpful. But as I've said before. In the case of extreme health risk and the only option is an abortion, then that's how it is.

Most pregnancy-related maternal deaths result from pre-eclampsia. DURING birth.


In your example the man still has a "get out of responsibility free" card.

 

[DemonSeed]

ill just add my maybe a bit more then 3 cents. i had a kid long time ago, would be around 9 now if i havent decide with my girlfriend that we cant have a kid just finishing our high schools and we opted for abortion.

after that our relationship, once so strong that people were telling us they could 'almost see i, went down the drain. we couldnt really be together anymore. she was extremly hurt, extremely. and was blaming me for all that. it didnt matter. we finished 3 months after the abortion. we tried to revive it few times at different stages of our lives nbut in never worked more than 2 or 3 days. we were kinda meeting only for sex really. dont know why either.

ands me? i think about how could my son or daughter look and behave right now, 9 years old. my friends say that im like a woman, moaning that i want children. and i am not too happy about abortion we decided to do. i miss the kid i never had.

still, i think that abortion is necessary sometimes. if i had this kid, we would be both struggling in poland to live, with kid in last year of high school its not like you are ready to be a parent. and our children would live in poor family [young lost 2 almost teenagers] with instant money worries etc.

abortion is ok, but are the people deciding to do that ready? i thought i was, but i miss the kid i never had. so i didnt handle it to well.

 

[Danoff]

ill just add my maybe a bit more then 3 cents. i had a kid long time ago, would be around 9 now if i havent decide with my girlfriend that we cant have a kid just finishing our high schools and we opted for abortion.

after that our relationship, once so strong that people were telling us they could 'almost see i, went down the drain. we couldnt really be together anymore. she was extremly hurt, extremely. and was blaming me for all that. it didnt matter. we finished 3 months after the abortion. we tried to revive it few times at different stages of our lives nbut in never worked more than 2 or 3 days. we were kinda meeting only for sex really. dont know why either.

ands me? i think about how could my son or daughter look and behave right now, 9 years old. my friends say that im like a woman, moaning that i want children. and i am not too happy about abortion we decided to do. i miss the kid i never had.

still, i think that abortion is necessary sometimes. if i had this kid, we would be both struggling in poland to live, with kid in last year of high school its not like you are ready to be a parent. and our children would live in poor family [young lost 2 almost teenagers] with instant money worries etc.

abortion is ok, but are the people deciding to do that ready? i thought i was, but i miss the kid i never had. so i didnt handle it to well.

You never had a kid. You prevented yourself from having a kid just like you prevent it when you use a condom or birth control. You just did it the hard way. If you two broke up after that incident, then I'm glad you didn't bring a kid into that relationship...

You saying you miss the kid that you aborted is like me saying I miss the kid I could have if my wife and I started trying - you're talking about a hypothetical.

 

[Swift]

...or be on birth control. I don't have a problem with this part of your message, but what does this have to do with abortion?

That's the part where you tell women they can't control their own bodies.

You're not getting me. It's straightforward and simple. Why do you need an abortion? Unwanted pregnancy. How do you STOP unwanted pregnancy? Abstinence. So there, end of problem.

You guys keep trying to bring in all kinds of examples, where what I'm saying solves both ends of the spectrum. No irresponsible sex means no need for aborting unwanted children.

 

[PS]

Then she simply shouldn't have sex.

What if they use a condom but it breaks? Is it okay to have an abortion then? Or a morning-after pill, even? What difference does it make if it's a morning after pill or needle?

 

[Swift]

What if they use a condom but it breaks? Is it okay to have an abortion then? Or a morning-after pill, even? What difference does it make if it's a morning after pill or needle?

No, no and no. I don't condone the morning after pill.

 

[Danoff]

You're not getting me. It's straightforward and simple. Why do you need an abortion? Unwanted pregnancy. How do you STOP unwanted pregnancy? Abstinence. So there, end of problem.

I'm not arguing with that. Abstinence is a great way to not have to play the mind games that demonseed is playing.

But what does that have to do with abortion? Nothing.

Abortions occur when abstience is NOT practiced - so do you prevent people from having aboritions or do you allow them to retain control over their own bodies?

 

[Swift]

I'm not arguing with that. Abstinence is a great way to not have to play the mind games that demonseed is playing.

But what does that have to do with abortion? Nothing.

Abortions occur when abstience is NOT practiced - so do you prevent people from having aboritions or do you allow them to retain control over their own bodies?

Abortion is a cure for the symptom of unwanted pregnancy, not the cause of it. So, abortion wouldn't be neeeded if people take responsibility before having sex.

 

[DemonSeed]

You never had a kid. You prevented yourself from having a kid just like you prevent it when you use a condom or birth control. You just did it the hard way. If you two broke up after that incident, then I'm glad you didn't bring a kid into that relationship...

You saying you miss the kid that you aborted is like me saying I miss the kid I could have if my wife and I started trying - you're talking about a hypothetical.

yes, but it doesnt change how i feel. we broke up, because she was blaming me for whole mess. we juct couldnt hack it togehter anymor.

 

[PS]

No, no and no. I don't condone the morning after pill.

So it's not her fault she's pregnant, because she's using a 99.998% effective method of birth control, and it's unacceptable to have and abortion or morning-after pill?

And what if the man broke the condom on purpose to try and impregnate her without her knowledge? Is it ok then?

 

[Danoff]

Abortion is a cure for the symptom of unwanted pregnancy, not the cause of it. So, abortion wouldn't be neeeded if people take responsibility before having sex.

Not completely true but it still dodges the point - which is that given the case where you have an unwanted pregnancy... what do you do?

You allow the woman to have control over her own body.

 

[a6m5]

Yup. The father has no say in the matter - it is not his body. You cannot force someone to go through pregnancy and give birth just because you impregnated them.

Again, not his body.

danoff, I know you're being supportive of the mothers, but try telling that to my coworker. You guys aren't gonna believe this. Yesterday, I started telling him about this thread at GTP and I wondered what his stance on abortion was. His face turned white, right in front of me. Turns out, his girlfriend just had an abortion... without telling him. He had found this out over the weekend and now has ended the relationship. He told me that he was thinking about marrying her and I have never seen this guy get so emotional and upset. In one weekend, he lost the woman he loves and the son or daughter he could've had.

This father had no say in the matter, and I disagree with your take. 👎