Where did PD go Wrong?

[synon]

That's sort of the point though.

Even if I accept your assertion that games are wholly subjective (and I'm not sure that I do), Gran Turismo is not just a game. It is also a simulator. It classes itself as one, and there's ample evidence both from the developers and within the game that it's trying to be a simulator.

Simulators CAN be judged objectively. There's an objective reality to compare them to, and better = more closely matched to that reality.


Maybe the game part of Gran Turismo is entirely subjective. It certainly seems to appeal to some but not others. But the simulation part is not subjective. If the physics are unrealistic it doesn't matter what the player thinks of them, unrealistic physics are objectively bad for a simulator. This extends also to things that are strongly related to the realism of the racing experience, such as race setup, damage, and flags/race rules.

GT is foremost a game and I would imagine some would find something like including practice, and then qualifying, for each 2 lap race a bit tedious.
PD doesn't intend GT to be a pure motorsport simulator, and looking at the poor sales of for example Race Pro, who is to say PD's judgement is incorrect.

 

[Rrralphster]

It is all subjective, no game can be considered 'better' than another.
In the end it just comes down to personal preference.

It get's awkward though, when the maker of such game claims to have created improved AI

 

[Marqus]

GT is foremost a game and I would imagine some would find something like including practice, and then qualifying, for each 2 lap race a bit tedious.
PD doesn't intend GT to be a pure motorsport simulator, and looking at the poor sales of for example Race Pro, who is to say PD's judgement is incorrect?.

GT6 doesn't know what it wants to be. Some say it's geared towards the casuals (easy races, AI, short career) but they take one look at that Auto Union and will run towards NFS Rivals. And the hardcores don't like it because of aforementioned casual gameplay. They're stuck somewhere in the middle and sales are STILL terrible.

 

[Imari]

GT is foremost a game and I would imagine some would find something like including practice, and then qualifying, for each 2 lap race a bit tedious.

Interesting then, how qualifying was included in the first few iterations of the game. I do recall it being very simple to skip it, and very useful for difficult races where you needed every edge possible (hooray, Normal Car Championship!).

Options. They're good.

Also, note that two lap races aren't necessarily set in stone either. A developer could change that, or make the lengths of races optional, if they wished. How hard would that be? Options menu > Select race length > Normal/Double/Quadruple.

Revolutionary, I tells you.

PD doesn't intend GT to be a pure motorsport simulator, and looking at the poor sales of for example Race Pro, who is to say PD's judgement is incorrect.

Ah, so you know what PD intends for GT. Excellent.

I'm pretty sure PD doesn't know what they want GT to be themselves. It's a mishmash of all sorts of bits and pieces with no cohesion at all, which is part of it's problem. Part of it's charm too, it must be said. But if you've got information that shows their direction for the game I'd like to see it. Maybe it would help me understand what their ultimate goal is.


But even without quote unquote motorsport in there, even with it being a game, it's STILL a simulator. They may choose not to simulate some aspects at all, and that's a valid choice. Whichever aspects they DO attempt to simulate, can be compared to the reality and assessed as such. Objectively.

A game that includes simulation is never judged purely subjectively. There has to be some reference to reality in order to judge the simulation parts, and reality is generally considered to be objective.

 

[CBH]

Where did PD go Wrong, Well they release a stupid game in a first place that's wear PD went so wrong. This game has to go down as one of the worst GT games in history so far. So I have stop playing this game until things improve like having a full game and god only knows how long is that going to take or I just have to wait until GT7 gets released and this is my opinion on the game. I am going back to GT5 for maybe many months.

 

[MaDHaX]

PD doesn't intend GT to be a pure motorsport simulator, and looking at the poor sales of for example Race Pro, who is to say PD's judgement is incorrect.

Sorry but wrong, Kaz wanted and has to a certain extent simulated every possible form of motor racing. He has brought us a good physics engine that also feels very good when playing with a wheel, however that is not the problem here.

The problem is that while the engine under the hood cannot be seen but is doing a fairly good job assuming the bug's will eventually be ironed out, it has a bland skin. In other words they have brought forward a birthday cake with no icing, might be tasty to eat but doesn't look very pretty.

 

[Tenacious D]

If you want 90's/early 00's sports cars, you're well accommodated for.

Yes, and this is the golden age of sports cars. Save for some of the Ferraris, Lambos and things like Koenigsegg, the cars I want to race are in GT6. Because there aren't so many newish sports cars of much consequence, at least to me, maybe we'll be getting them at some point, along with the 'Seggs and others.

The problem is that while the engine under the hood cannot be seen but is doing a fairly good job assuming the bug's will eventually be ironed out, it has a bland skin. In other words they have brought forward a birthday cake with no icing, might be tasty to eat but doesn't look very pretty.

I'd say there's icing, but it's pretty thin. Many of us take things into our own hands to keep GT6 fun, like me "race modding" sports cars and pitting them against real race cars in the i-A races. I've been pleasantly surprised at how some like the Spirra make great race cars when juiced up. But you can only eat the same 8 or 10 races so many times, and it's already beginning to get stale.

PD needs to do a couple of things. Or three, or four, or...

• Provide more single player offline events, and more league oriented races. Of course, for very many of these, they will need to provide either a bunch more DLC or give us Race Mod.
• Race Mod, and a Livery Editor.
• Course Maker II
• The biggest thing, a comprehensive Event Maker which will allow us to make our own race series and championships, hopefully with lots of options for rules and restrictions. Choices of competing cars, bot drivers and their skill levels, etc. Offline and online both, it will extend the life of GT6 tremendously.
• Along with this, fix the bots so they stop giving up. Having a five lap race result where the difference between first and last is more than a minute and a half, that's just wrong.

 

[Imari]

Yes, and this is the golden age of sports cars. Save for some of the Ferraris, Lambos and things like Koenigsegg, the cars I want to race are in GT6. Because there aren't so many newish sports cars of much consequence, at least to me, maybe we'll be getting them at some point, along with the 'Seggs and others.

It's the golden age of Japanese sports cars, but you missed the point I was making.

People often claim that part of what makes GT special is not it's roster of sports cars, but it's roster of cars that might be owned by the player, particularly the non-sports cars. I'm pretty sure I've seen you mention this in the past as well. In 2005, GT was very, very good at this. It had an excellent selection of modern cars in the 0-15 year age range, that would likely be affordable in real life for your average Joe.

In 2014, those cars are now 10-25 years old. The bog standard Civics and friends have simply been run into the ground and are not suitable as daily drivers any more. The RX7s and Supras and Skylines are rarer and expensive to maintain now that they're older. Neither are terribly common car choices for your average family.

GT6 has an OK selection of modern "everyman" cars, but it's not exactly great compared to what older games offered. That's the point I was making. GT6 remains great for that golden age of Japanese sports cars, but it's lost a lot of that "hey, I'll go make my own car in Gran Turismo!" potential.


I cited my example of wanting to drive a Series 2 RX8, which I thought would have been an easy one given that it's Japanese, sporty, relatively affordable, not uncommon and kind of interesting by dint of having a weird motor.

Similarly, they've got a modern Mazda 3, but no modern Mazda 6 beyond 2007. In Australia at least, the Mazda 6 is an enormously popular family car. Best selling car of the year recently, if I remember correctly.

I'm sure there's more models that are fundamental to major manufacturers ranges that are missing. I can understand that maybe it's difficult to do this for the Euro and US manufacturers, but at least fill out the basic range from the Japanese makers. That does tend to cover a large portion of the common cars worldwide.


I'm with you that they don't need more wacky supercars. They've got the major ones, it's fine. They DO need to flesh out their list of sub-$50k family and sporting-driver-with-kids type cars.

 

[Tenacious D]

I understand your point. The thing is there is always a modeling budget in any game, but especially racing games, and especially in Gran Turismo. Besides consideration of the newer sporty cars, a lot of those Standards need to become Premiums or Premiumized, and tracks as well as cars. Plus, a lot of us are clamoring for those GT Legacy tracks. We'll just have to see how this shakes out in the coming months, and for GT7. Most likely GT7, because I'm betting that the DLC doesn't include the new Mazda 3 or Pontiac Fiero, though they could surprise us.

 

[synon]

Interesting then, how qualifying was included in the first few iterations of the game. I do recall it being very simple to skip it, and very useful for difficult races where you needed every edge possible (hooray, Normal Car Championship!).

Options. They're good.

Also, note that two lap races aren't necessarily set in stone either. A developer could change that, or make the lengths of races optional, if they wished. How hard would that be? Options menu > Select race length > Normal/Double/Quadruple.

Revolutionary, I tells you.

Yes options are good, but obviously if not many people are going to use the option, the developer may consider the effort required to incorporate it better spent elsewhere.

Ah, so you know what PD intends for GT. Excellent.

Unfortunately not, I was really referring to what has been their intention to date, although it does seem unlikely after 15 years their intentions will change any time soon.

 

[MustangManiac]

I sit here in stunned silence, the 90's - 00's were "the golden age of sport scars" I need more coffee...or maybe something a bit stronger.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I sit here in stunned silence, the 90's - 00's were "the golden age of sport scars" I need more coffee...or maybe something a bit stronger.

It's the golden age of Japanese sports cars....

Is this the quote you're looking for?

Yes I agree, but I disagree with your premise that all simulators have to include every real-life motorsport element, so our assessment of simulators will vary (subjectively) on this aspect.

Someone said "all simulators must include every real-life motorsport element"? Must have nissed that....

 

[lazywolfe]

Mar 19 2014

 

[Samus]

Sorry but wrong, Kaz wanted and has to a certain extent simulated every possible form of motor racing.

Ooh, when did he release that game? What's it called?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Yes, and this is the golden age of sports cars.

 

[Elitekilla29]

The only reason why I haven't played GT6 for a good month now is because I been playing NASCAR 14. I will be back on it soon though. I actually try to play it last week but it never load up. My ps3 is starting to go out. It can load all my other games except for GT6. And no my the disc doesn't have any scratches or finger prints on it.

 

[TRC GeorgiaDawg]

and looking at the poor sales of for example Race Pro, who is to say PD's judgement is incorrect.

Terrible comparison. Race Pro was a first time console release, on a puny budget by a 3rd party developer. So of course it was never going to sell in huge numbers like a first party AAA title. But, had they pumped some more money in. Maybe upped the graphics just a little and fixed the many glitches I know I would still be playing it today as would MANY other sim minded console racers.

You say GT is foremost a game. That's where it's lacking more than any other area is "game". Physics are great, cars are great, tracks are great. There's just so little to actually do with it besides grinding or aimlessly driving around.

 

[eSZee]

The only reason why I haven't played GT6 for a good month now is because I been playing NASCAR 14. I will be back on it soon though. I actually try to play it last week but it never load up. My ps3 is starting to go out. It can load all my other games except for GT6. And no my the disc doesn't have any scratches or finger prints on it.

Are you sure you're in the right thread?

 

[MrWednesday]

It get's awkward though, when the maker of such game claims to have created improved AI

The AI is at least marginally better at driving. To pick the most obvious example, they don't park it in the loop ramp on Cape Ring the way they did in GT5. Unfortunately, they're not any better at situational awareness, possibly even worse.

 

[Swagger897]

Yes, and this is the golden age of sports cars.

Oof .... Did I really just read that?

 

[guywithanAE86]

Where did PD go Wrong, Well they release a stupid game in a first place that's wear PD went so wrong. This game has to go down as one of the worst GT games in history so far. So I have stop playing this game until things improve like having a full game and god only knows how long is that going to take or I just have to wait until GT7 gets released and this is my opinion on the game. I am going back to GT5 for maybe many months.

Just bashing it and not even remotely telling us your rationale for why you dislike it so much isn't very helpful to the thread. Besides, what's 5 got over 6 aside from different events?
1. That absurd used-car dealer that wastes your time.
2. Less cars, more of which are modeled worse.
3. A physics engine that can't compare to 6's.
4. Lifeless AI that just jumps out of your way to let you win instead of thinking of putting up a fight.
5. Less tracks, only a few of which have weather change, and no time change at all.

And those are just off the top of my head. At least say why 6 is so terrible.

 

[Imari]

Besides, what's 5 got over 6 aside from different events?

B Spec.
Course Maker.
Rally Events.
Endurance Events.
Shuffle Racing.
Seasonals that aren't hotlaps.
Online pitstops that work.
Top Gear Test Track.
Car trading.
Remote racing.

Just off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more.

4. Lifeless AI that just jumps out of your way to let you win instead of thinking of putting up a fight.

Both games have this, they just implement it differently. GT6s AI is hardly a step up in competitiveness from GT5.


Don't get me wrong, I still think GT5 isn't a very good game, but fully updated it's not bad. GT6 in it's current form offers only a few things that are outright better than GT6. More cars, more tracks, improved physics. Almost everything else is better-for-some, worse-for-others or simply missing, to be updated at some unspecified future date.

GT6 could and should be outright better than GT5. It should be GT5 tuned and fettled, with extra bits added. It should really be GT5 Spec 3.0, and then some. At the moment it feels a bit like a gutted GT5 that they haven't gotten around to adding the improved features back into yet.

 

[Tornado]

Ooh, when did he release that game? What's it called?

Omega Boost, clearly.

 

[wowbaggerBR]

It's funny look back to the discussions that we had for months before GT6 release.

People, everybody knows whom, argued a lot, saying that PD had learned its lesson with GT5, that we couldn't criticize a game that wasn't released by the time.

Now, that we can, because it's pretty much falling apart, it's easy to define GT6. It isn't GT5.5 after all. Is even worse. Since they took stuff out, GT6 is, trully, GT4.5.

Yes, and this is the golden age of sports cars.

Only on GTPlanet...

 

[Kurei]

That ^

So has anyone, from the petition-guys, to the boycott thread, to the twitter #hashtag people, had success in getting 'any' reaction from PD or Sony ?

I've already committed myself to different PS3 racing games (F1:2013 once it arrives, then WRC 4 after that) while watching the silence-situation simply continue to degrade here, just to simply pass the time until the 'breaking-point' is reached for the community. I hope someone gets a useful response or PD finally admits defeat/poor performance, simply just so we can put an end to the disappointment and wait-out GT7 stuff.

I'm almost tempted to start another "It's almost (month), where is our promised content?" thread just to stoke the fires again, because lets be honest, it's kinda needed. We're half-way through March and still without answer, people need a more 'public' spot to vent frustration with the series, to bring the issues further into the spotlight, and the Epic Whining/Crying thread doesn't quite do that, that thread just seems to serve as a 'set it and forget it' solution for the mods imo.

 

[Swagger897]

people need a more 'public' spot to vent frustration with the series, to bring the issues further into the spotlight, and the Epic Whining/Crying thread doesn't quite do that, that thread just seems to serve as a 'set it and forget it' solution for the mods imo.

As much as I want to agree with the bolded comment, mods won't accept it because someone's toe gets stepped on and then it turns into three page long rage posts, and then Ron Paul shows up, and then it gets temporarily closed, and re opened. Said month comes, with no featuring updates as promised, only new and unwanted things, and then the thread gets locked... Only to happen again the next month.

and as far as the remaining part of your post, it's because the people on that thread can keep it within reasonable bounds and common sense. When someone sees a post like the one mentioned above, they'll jump on in it to get on the first page for likes (because we all try that) and then all hell breaks loose..

 

[Th3Juggernaut]

Nope, not a peep from them on my end. No response to the email, the written letter, FB, or the petition. All were done in a respectful, professional manner. Doesn't surprise me though. Just going to move on to other games/developers, simple as that.

 

[Swagger897]

Nope, not a peep from them on my end. No response to the email, the written letter, FB, or the petition. All were done in a respectful, professional manner. Doesn't surprise me though. Just going to move on to other games/developers, simple as that.

Probably cause it wasn't in Japanese.... That might have been the disrespect..

Plus from my AP Human Geography class, Japan doesn't really care for outside influence, so who ever said a while ago that "well that just shows how PD doesn't care for countries outside of Japan" is actually correct..

 

[Kurei]

As much as I want to agree with the bolded comment, mods won't accept it because someone's toe gets stepped on and then it turns into three page long rage posts, and then Ron Paul shows up, and then it gets temporarily closed, and re opened. Said month comes, with no featuring updates as promised, only new and unwanted things, and then the thread gets locked... Only to happen again the next month.

and as far as the remaining part of your post, it's because the people on that thread can keep it within reasonable bounds and common sense. When someone sees a post like the one mentioned above, they'll jump on in it to get on the first page for likes (because we all try that) and then all hell breaks loose..

And that is why I'm only half-tempted to do so, we already know how it'll end (even down to the closing/opening ), we can predict the mod-response already, and other than stoking fires, I really have no interest left for GT, it'd purely be a way to kill some time waiting for my other games to arrive from the U.K.

Nope, not a peep from them on my end. No response to the email, the written letter, FB, or the petition. All were done in a respectful, professional manner. Doesn't surprise me though. Just going to move on to other games/developers, simple as that.

Same luck here, FB posts/GameInformer emails/ etc have all received silence. Making the same move as you and committing time to other games. I can only hope that 'something' happens during my time away from GT, for better or worse, as long as it brings closure.

 

[civicgsir]

They have a large amount of cars, but they're aging faster than PD is adding to them. The vast majority of the cars in GT6 are from 2005 and earlier. 90's sports cars were relatively common at the time, but now the earliest ones are almost 25 years old. They're becoming collectors cars. And a lot of the "everyday" cars that were common in 2005 simply aren't on the road much any more in 2014. They've been run into the ground and replaced with something newer.

And this is common if you want to drive a relatively modern car, say from the last ten years. If you want 90's/early 00's sports cars, you're well accommodated for. But for modern stuff you're really not much better served with GT6 than any other game with a car list a fraction of the size.

I was thinking this very exact thing the last time I had GT6 on.

Similar to what has been said before, but it's like they are still making GT4.

The 'game' portion is definitely stale. They better figure it out soon or things could go bad for GT.