Where did PD go Wrong?

[CAMAROBOY69]

Same thing that's been mentioned over and over. KY has very high expectations and not enough staff or time to meet the objectives. With that said I think they did an excellent job with GT6. WAY better than GT5.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Where did it go wrong?

My guess.

1. They bought into the lies of lazy games journalists who kept saying "One player is dead, it all about the online now"

This explains the total rubbish GT-mode of GT5.

2. They analysed the save data of GT5 players and found that most people didn't bother with GT-Mode and concentrated on online seasonal's instead.

They reached the wrong conclusion that players didn't want GT-Mode, just Seasonal's, so they gave us GT6 with nothing but Seasonal's in it.

I'd say that just about covers it.

Seems to make sense but if it were true, they would have made the effort to have all the community features ready for launch to accentuate the online experience. I think PD is well aware that GT Mode is where the game is at for most people, their mistake is in assuming that even "casual" players want 3 and 4 lap races throughout the entire GT mode. Their mistake is in assuming that casual players only want a series of basically random events and not the fell of an actual racing career. Their mistake is in assuming that the hardcore, long term fans will be satisfied with anything they put out.

Their design for GT Mode isn't an afterthough, it was very purposeful. They just miscalculated what would appeal to casual fans and the rest of us.

They went wrong by waiting to add the bulk of the content until after most people have shelved/sold the game. By the time we get these so-called "community features" there's only going to be a dozen people left playing online.

This is also where I think PD missed the boat. They are assuming we're all waiting around like we did with GT5, for the game to be updated, patched, fixed etc. They forget that we already went through all this once with GT5 and were very patient, giving them the benefit of the doubt because the improvement in visual quality was so stunning, it was a new console (to them) etc. I think most of us, including me, wrongly assumed GT6 would be GT5+++, meaning all the goodness of GT5 would remain, with more and better features added. Instead they took away a lot of useful stuff, torpedoed the offline part of the game, dialed in a bunch of glitches we didn't have before and are now excruciatingly slow at delivering on content we should have had at launch.

They miscalculated out mindset into thinking we would repeat the GT5 process with GT6 when much of the goodwill is gone.

 

[LVracerGT]

I will say 3 quick things:

PS3 sucks compared to a powerful PC of today, so it's very unfair to compare GT5/GT6 to a PC game.

I disagree with this statement. Sure, modern PC's have more power compared to the PS3, but the PS3 is still no slouch. GT5/6 could have been MUCH better if PD allocated the resources properly better and built a balanced title that didn't focus so much on graphics.

PD dropped the ball big time with PS3 development. Other titles like GTA5 and recent Naughty Dog games show what's possible when you unlock the potential of the CELL and RSX.

 

[Steve Mcqueen]

It's a sad state of affairs over at PD and the only reason I'm playing gt6 is too collect cars
Other games do online racing/customizing/livery/physics better so I'm over there more.
Pd does model there cars extremely we'll which is why I like collecting.

 

[phil_75]

Where did they go wrong?

I'd say as soon as Kaz's heart and therefore love and priority went from GranTurismo to his real life racing.
(look at the difference in quality between GT1-4 and 5-6)

Someone else should have took over but Kaz needs GT to fund his real life racing so it will just be run into the ground until it no longer makes him enough money.

 

[NixxxoN]

I disagree with this statement. Sure, modern PC's have more power compared to the PS3, but the PS3 is still no slouch. GT5/6 could have been MUCH better if PD allocated the resources properly better and built a balanced title that didn't focus so much on graphics.

PD dropped the ball big time with PS3 development. Other titles like GTA5 and recent Naughty Dog games show what's possible when you unlock the potential of the CELL and RSX.

GTA 5 graphics are 720p and clearly worse than Gran Turismo's.
Naughty Dog games surely have great graphics, but in the end their games are more simple (uncharteds and TLOU) and don't have complex phyisics involved like in GT6.

 

[LVracerGT]

GTA 5 graphics are 720p and clearly worse than Gran Turismo's.
Naughty Dog games surely have great graphics, but in the end their games are more simple (uncharteds and TLOU) and don't have complex phyisics involved like in GT6.

I'll take a little worse graphics for a better game any day. I have no problem with the way GTA5 looks, especially when you're flying over a body of water at dusk or the city at night.

Things don't need to be laser scanned and pushing the systems limits so far visually that the rest of the game suffers. It's called development choices, and the ones PD made on the PS3 were clearly the wrong ones.

 

[NixxxoN]

I'll take a little worse graphics for a better game any day. I have no problem with the way GTA5 looks.

So you would rather play at 30 FPS like in GTA, before 60 FPS like in GT5/6?
PD pushed the PS3 to the absolute limit with GT6. They've proven that 1080p is simply too ambitious for the PS3.

 

[LVracerGT]

So you would rather play at 30 FPS like in GTA, before 60 FPS like in GT5/6?
PD pushed the PS3 to the absolute limit with GT6.

See edited post above.

 

[Raggadish]

I'm wondering if it might have something to do with the japanese work heirarchy. You don't challenge your boss and since Kaz is the director and producer pretty much what he says goes. That is not an attack on him, it's more about perhaps having a more open viewing on what features should be implemented and how they should look & work. I wonder if there really is anyone within PD who challenge Kazunori when it comes what goes into the game. Maybe, maybe not.

There's also the chance that market taste has changed and PD doesn't keep their ears to the ground. GT has never been a very strong selling franshiche in Japan, but it does good numbers in US and even better in EU. Maybe they should have some creative people from the west/EU coming up with ideas for the next GT?

 

[NixxxoN]

I'll take a little worse graphics for a better game any day. I have no problem with the way GTA5 looks, especially when you're flying over a body of water at dusk or the city at night.

Things don't need to be laser scanned and pushing the systems limits so far visually that the rest of the game suffers. It's called development choices, and the ones PD made on the PS3 were clearly the wrong ones.

Soo what would you do if you were PD? I dont get it.
Naughty Dog and Rockstar Games do one thing much better than PD... Make themselves look great and make a lot of self-publicity.
On the other hand PD as you know they are very secretive and they just make the games without talking too much about themselves being so great.
Naughty dog for example did a great job with the uncharteds, but man... they've put so many "self-advertisement" videos in their games, its ridiculous.

From my point of view I have yet to see a single PS3 game that looks better than GT with that resolution and 60 FPS... And sadly the car sounds really kill them.
Uncharteds come a close second.

The physics in GT6 are good, maybe not the best ever, but if you really like driving games, you gotta have fun with this game.
Therefore for me the only thing that GT6 can be improved vastly is the sounds department, thats all.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Soo what would you do if you were PD? I dont get it.
Naughty Dog and Rockstar Games do one thing much better than PD... Make themselves look great and make a lot of self-publicity.
On the other hand PD as you know they are very secretive and they just make the games without talking too much about themselves being so great.
Naughty dog for example did a great job with the uncharteds, but man... they've put so many "self-advertisement" videos in their games, its ridiculous.

From my point of view I have yet to see a single PS3 game that looks better than GT with that resolution and 60 FPS... And sadly the car sounds really kill them.
Uncharteds come a close second.

Gameplay, game design etc. was sacrificed in GT in favour of pretty graphics and stars and sunsets. Some people are unhappy with the tradeoff. TLOU is a fairly simple game but that's by choice. They worked with the resources they had and produced a great and wildly popular game by making certain tradeoffs. Some people, including me, would have preferred PD made different choices. We've got lipstick on a pig, instead of slow roasted, delicious tasting pork, served on a paper plate.

 

[avens]

About the PC comparison, the PC racing games / sims have always been above anything on consoles quality wise. It's just that people are recently discovering them after the GT series constant delays in this PS3 era - and might as well say it, disappointment too.

In other words, not a single yet GT game was better for driving or for racing than what was offered on the PC at the time. Thing is back in the day those weren't as spread as they are now, though still are pretty much unknown compared to consoles.

 

[Ryan81]

PD didn't go wrong imo. They made far more mistakes with GT5 than with GT6. Almost everything about GT6 is superior to 5. Only thing I miss from 5 is the 1/4, 1 mile, 0-60 tests.

 

[JujiroMatsuda]

I've only read the first few posts but PD to me really seems start going down the same path, once glorified, NFS franchise did. 20 years ago (yes that's right 2 decades ago) EA had that NFS the 1st and it was truly a head-turner game. I remember when I was a student I went into a local electronic store and heard this V12 Ferrari exhaust sound and thought, "What the hell is that?" The demo was playing and I was hooked. Next thing happened was I upgraded my PC, bought Thrustmaster steering wheel and pedal set (which was more expensive than PS4 concole then) and I blew away my whole summer.lol It was no where as realistic as GT5 but it was the best thing we had back then. Then I hooked into driving the real cars so I left gaming altogether.

After long time passed I looked at latest NFS series and I was shocked - it surely looked pretty but I never wanted to waste my money on it. If I was a 9 year old I might have. I wondered where did they go wrong? Whoever is in charge must have made really bad decisions. I don't know, some people must like the way they do things that's why they're still there, right? So I just leave them at that and I don't care.

Then about mid last year I played GT5 (with G27 steering wheel) for the first time at friend's and I was ASTONISHED in every possible way! It was just an incredible experience, I thought, "This is more than a game. This is it." so I never looked back since. The whole gear cost me so cheap yet what it gave me was simply stunning. I had played briefly GT2 around year 2000 and it was amazing enough, even with controller so I gather GT3&4 were also excellent although I never seen them. PD must have been doing a really good job keeping the legacy.

Anyway, as soon as GT6 released I bought it and still play till now but at first, with its obvious approach to gather money from consumers via pay per download contents but with so many flaws still been ignored while they were quick to address that money glitch made me think, "Who's in charge of this??"

I don't know what kind of fat belly arrogant CEO that controls the operation but I couldn't help thinking, "Ah, so they must've been bought out because they got famous and got ruined by the heads just like NFS did." Many companies gone through similar phase and met their ultimate downfalls because of change of doing things that used to work first - I've seen them personally through my work. The spirit was bought out with money and usually ends badly. When that happens good employees leave and replaced with those CEO like-minded. I'm not saying PD is going through it but it just smells like it. I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

When a fish starts to rot, usually starts with its head.

 

[Mustangmiha]

I'm just sitting here at work bored out my nut

You should stop browsing the internet and go back to work

 

[Lawndart]

PD didn't go wrong imo. They made far more mistakes with GT5 than with GT6. Almost everything about GT6 is superior to 5. Only thing I miss from 5 is the 1/4, 1 mile, 0-60 tests.

Its hard to 'go wrong' when you reduce the multiplier of complexity.

That multiplier is features with GT 6. And nearly all of them are staples except course maker and gps...

So 'going wrong' in the GT 6 context is more to do with a regression in design and playability, missed expectations, and lack of communication than actual 'flaws'... Though there are several.

The franchise is always a struggle between legacy formula and talking about innovative features, and failing to deliver on both. And yes, I said failed, not failing... As too much time had passed considering the hype of said features started 6 months prior to release...

What's there might be ok... But no one bought it for what is effectively already in GT 5... Had we never experienced the newer physics we would never really know any different... And that form is lacking in function, sort of canceling out the ROI...

 

[Aloha62_2]

The pure bloody minded determination to ignore everything the fanbase wants. Actually scratch that, to refuse that a fanbase even exists.

We want a livery editor-
Here have a horrific paint chip system

We want more tuning options-
Removes options and adds a pp system

We want more testing options-
Removes all testing features

We want a better career-
Lol 24min enduros for you.

Are you going to fix anything?
We are working on it, expect an update never.

 

[deep_sky]

PD aren't blameless, but really, Sony are the ones to blame. They own the studio; they manage the studio... they have done a dreadful job of running the studio properly over the past 6 years, and it has culminated in the biggest market crash in GT history with 6.

The only thing Sony seem to have learnt is not announcing the game years in advance, and shipping it on time. That's wonderful and all, but not if the game that is released is so tragic.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I've only read the first few posts but PD to me really seems start going down the same path, once glorified, NFS franchise did. 20 years ago (yes that's right 2 decades ago) EA had that NFS the 1st and it was truly a head-turner game. I remember when I was a student I went into a local electronic store and heard this V12 Ferrari exhaust sound and thought, "What the hell is that?" The demo was playing and I was hooked. Next thing happened was I upgraded my PC, bought Thrustmaster steering wheel and pedal set (which was more expensive than PS4 concole then) and I blew away my whole summer.lol It was no where as realistic as GT5 but it was the best thing we had back then. Then I hooked into driving the real cars so I left gaming altogether.

After long time passed I looked at latest NFS series and I was shocked - it surely looked pretty but I never wanted to waste my money on it. If I was a 9 year old I might have. I wondered where did they go wrong? Whoever is in charge must have made really bad decisions. I don't know, some people must like the way they do things that's why they're still there, right? So I just leave them at that and I don't care.

Then about mid last year I played GT5 (with G27 steering wheel) for the first time at friend's and I was ASTONISHED in every possible way! It was just an incredible experience, I thought, "This is more than a game. This is it." so I never looked back since. The whole gear cost me so cheap yet what it gave me was simply stunning. I had played briefly GT2 around year 2000 and it was amazing enough, even with controller so I gather GT3&4 were also excellent although I never seen them. PD must have been doing a really good job keeping the legacy.

Anyway, as soon as GT6 released I bought it and still play till now but at first, with its obvious approach to gather money from consumers via pay per download contents but with so many flaws still been ignored while they were quick to address that money glitch made me think, "Who's in charge of this??"

I don't know what kind of fat belly arrogant CEO that controls the operation but I couldn't help thinking, "Ah, so they must've been bought out because they got famous and got ruined by the heads just like NFS did." Many companies gone through similar phase and met their ultimate downfalls because of change of doing things that used to work first - I've seen them personally through my work. The spirit was bought out with money and usually ends badly. When that happens good employees leave and replaced with those CEO like-minded. I'm not saying PD is going through it but it just smells like it. I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

When a fish starts to rot, usually starts with its head.

This sort of evolution is one that all companies must face. What do you do when you get more popular, what changes do we make as the market evolves? Should we evolve? Will fans leave us if we change the core of our product? Are they really looking for something new or just better old stuff?

I look at the evolution of GT this way. In the beginning, you had Kaz and a vision. Great graphics, realistic (for the day) racing, good physics, real world cars and tracks lots of variety. This is the important part - it was an car enthusiasts dream game that casual players also adopted for it's simplicity and ease of use. In other words, it was designed for us, and the rest of the world just happened to like it.

Now, as Kaz himself has said, the game is designed around casual users and the entire offline mode, SRF available in Seasonals and forced on in some events, rubber banding rabbit AI etc. etc. etc. confirms this is true. It's gone from a game designed for diehards that everyone adopted, to a game that is designed supposedly for everyone but isn't really designed for anyone at all. The part PD has missed is that that casuals adopted and loved the game even if it wasn't designed for them particularly. They will come along if the basic game is good. The basic game is no longer good and sales figures show even the casuals aren't buying it like they used to.

Go back to designing a game for enthusiasts and leave enough options and variability in the basic design that everyone can adapt to it. Simple.

 

[Cosbuster]

At this point, I'm wondering where they didn't go wrong.

 

[raven214]

It seems to me there are a number of factors that have led Kaz/PD astray.

1. The growth and misunderstanding of online updates and multiplayer

When I played GT1 back in the day there was no online. Games existed in a sort of vacuum, solitary confinement if you will, where they couldn't afford to be released with game breaking bugs because there was no way to update them. Glitches were always present, and would be well-documented and immortalized into the game's history but most things worked because developers took the time to bug test properly - they simply had to.

Today, in too many cases it's become common practice to shove games out the door without proper testing, in effect turning a full price game into an open beta. Online updates are great for fixing rare, hard to find bugs that make it through testing, or for introducing new features/content, but if they are going to be used for an open beta (which is basically what GT6 was at release and still is in many aspects) then we, the customers, should be told so ahead of time. The developer needs to make the effort to have some form of communication with us so we can give solid feedback and get game-breaking bugs fixed in a timely manner.

The other part of the online issue is multiplayer. Multiplayer is great, but too many developers are skimping or outright ignoring singleplayer in favor of it. I can understand why: it's far easier to release base content for multiplayer and let the fans (customers) make the storyline/structure and compete amongst themselves, rather than developing a compelling story (namely for a racing game, career development and proper racing/championships) and AI for singleplayer. GT6 singleplayer feels like it was meant as a trainer for online, and even at that it does a pretty poor job.

2. Bad timing

This one isn't all PD's fault. I think there was strong pressure from Sony to get GT6 out the door for Holiday 2013, which I can understand from Sony because with the PS4's release the PS3's days are clearly numbered. If GT6 had been delayed into 2014 then I think it would have been either moved to the PS4 or dual-released on both systems. In my mind, PD would have been better served to release GT6's cars/tracks and physics as GT5 "Ultimate" or several DLC's/feature updates strung out over time while working on GT6 as a brand new game purely for the PS4.

3. Kaz's Vision (or arrogance/stubbornness depending on your point of view)

There is no doubt in my mind that Kaz has huge dreams for GT. This is great, but I think it leads to trying to do too many things at once and missing the basics along the way. Basics that are lacking are AI, elements of racing (practice, qualifying, grouped starts - grids/rolling), and fixes for bugs that affect those things (eg AI wheelstands, pit stop bug). Meanwhile we are nearly 3 months into this game and are still facing gameplay bugs (though, to be fair, some have been fixed) while still waiting for features promised "shortly after release".

When it comes to constructive criticism of GT, it seems Kaz either is oblivious or purposely not listening. Case in point singleplayer, which has failed to evolve much from GT1 some 15 years and 2 systems ago. Likewise, sound and AI suffer from much the same condition. Perhaps it's a cultural thing, or perhaps Kaz views GT as a work of art, rather than a game, and therefore nothing is wrong with it (except bugs, of course). Perhaps he's trying to market a global game to his local country and doesn't care what anyone wants outside of Japan. Perhaps he refuses to look at what other developers have done and prefers to reinvent the wheel at every step. I do not live in Kaz's head so I can only speculate as to the cause, but we are all dealing with the effects.

The Solution?

Kaz can (and will) do whatever he wants and we'll see how that works out for the franchise. One thing that Kaz could decide to do literally right this instant that would go a long way to satisfy myself and, I suspect, many who feel similarly is to simply communicate with us. The medium is not nearly as important as the act.

I don't care if it's a weekly blog, Twitter posts, or a monthly "state of the game" update on the GT website, but do something. I don't care if it comes from Kaz directly or someone at PD so long as it is official and not just random leaks/propaganda. This is not rocket science, it's called customer relations and it's a useful tool for keeping customers informed and happy - generally a good goal for any business. There is no excuse for leaving your customers in the dark 3 months into a game's life wondering if basic bugs will be fixed and if old features will return, not to mention if they will ever see new features promised at release.

If February ends with no word from PD then I believe I will have given up all hope. I have no more breath to hold. At this point, I am basically approaching GT6 as an abandoned beta. Updates will be greatly welcomed but not expected. I will get as much as I can from GT6 and then look toward PCars as my next potential racer.

I've poked a lot of fun at the GT tagline "The real driving simulator" but in the end that seems to be where PD is focused: a great driving experience with little to no racing. It's quite unfortunate. Gran Turismo has so much potential.

 

[eSZee]

PD aren't blameless, but really, Sony are the ones to blame. They own the studio; they manage the studio... they have done a dreadful job of running the studio properly over the past 6 years, and it has culminated in the biggest market crash in GT history with 6.

The only thing Sony seem to have learnt is not announcing the game years in advance, and shipping it on time. That's wonderful and all, but not if the game that is released is so tragic.

I'll have to disagree and here's why. Kaz is one of the top dogs at sony, I think they leave PD alone and let him run it as he pleases. They look at sales and profits, see all is well and that's the extent of their involvement.

 

[StaryStarego]

they did go wrong on massacring MR cars in gt6... GT-R for everyone

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'll have to disagree and here's why. Kaz is one of the top dogs at sony, I think they leave PD alone and let him run it as he pleases. They look at sales and profits, see all is well and that's the extent of their involvement.

So true. Kaz is a consistent winner that's made Sony $hundreds of millions, they might throw out a suggestion here or there but I'd guess he's pretty much left alone to do as he pleases. Until the money stops flowing of course...then he's last years pretty dress and no longer in fashion...

 

[SlipZtrEm]

So you would rather play at 30 FPS like in GTA, before 60 FPS like in GT5/6?

I'd take a stable 30fps over a supposed 60fps that actually stutters to well under half that at times.

 

[Exorcet]

And don't you dare tell me PD should follow Forza's trail, those games are utter utter garbage. At least the cars in Gran Turismo actually handle like their real life counterparts and feel like they're on tarmac. Besides, why should there be a big overworld road? Forza Horizon and Need for speed have that and they're about street racing. Gran Turismo's always been about circuit driving, that makes no sense.

You've got this backwards. Forza is the one that gets cars right.

I think part of the problem here is the console mindset. Console games are design and sold with the idea that people will take what they get, and no one wants anything more than simple. This goes for most console games, Forza included, but PD takes it to an extreme. You don't really get many options with how to play. It can be extremely frustrating.

Another issue for me is that while PD says GT is a simulator, they don't seem interested in being more realistic. The physics are subpar for the genre in my opinion and there is little to know sign of the major physics overhaul promised with GT6.

One of the console racers really need to break away from the mold and improve the genre. It wouldn't be difficult to do, but for some reason no one seems willing.

We want more tuning options-
Removes options and adds a pp system

Removing options is bad. PP is a requirement for a game of this type though.

We want a better career-
Lol 24min enduros for you.

This may say a lot. Was it done to cater to the idea that players don't want a "hardcore" race? Maybe then, maybe you could justify taking the 24 hr races from A-Spec. But why not put them somewhere else for the other players? Why is making both sides happy so hard?

 

[Hypergolem]

The biggest problem with GT6 (and before with GT5) is that is effin boring. Unless you are a real car setup fan the game doesn't offer much to a more casual player. The online mode is frustrating to navigate and before you find a race that you like 15 minutes are passed. The AI is bad, the GT mode races are too easy and not realistic (it is always basically a huge comeback from behind passing much slower cars and trying to get the first place before the race is over...boring)
Promised and announced features are missing and we know nothing when or if they are going to be implemented. I bought a game in December and in March I'm still waiting for most of the features? Screw you PD. Tuning and set up is complicated and unless you are an engineer it is really hard to get the most out of your car... PD should give us a system to make it a bit easier with a system that asks you how do you feel the car (like a virtual racing engineer) Is the car oversteering adjust this... is the car understeering then adjust this.
But mostly what is missing this game is online options to make racing with friends more enjoyable. A meeting place, a drag strip, a matchmaking option.

 

[sumbrownkid]

PD is probably hanging around the bad kids. That's where they went wrong.

 

[Exorcet]

The nature of the game makes tuning optional in many cases. If you don't want to tune, just use better tires or SRF and you should be OK. Adding power to a car is straightforward.

Tuning as it is, is not fit for an engineer actually. The tuning tips do tell you what provides over/understeer (but might not be accurate). I wish the tuning screen was set up for engineers. Then we'd see the CoP and cg shift around the car as we do things, get weights on each tire, etc. Any maybe even the proper gear setting screen last seen in GT1.