White Privilege

[Johnnypenso]

To be fair, you did posted it to seem like you compared both suffering. Racism for every ethnicity is different. The stereotypes for each ethnicity are vastly different. Although similar I would still not compare them. for example an asian will not be associated with a thief, murderer or rapist as much as a mexican or black person.

And a Mexican or Black would not be compared to someone who invaded their country and tortured and slaughtered hundreds of thousands of people. The two are definitely comparable there's no question about it. Doesn't mean they are the same but it does mean there are enough similarities that they are worth taking a look at side by side. You're dismissing it simply because it has an outcome you don't like I suspect.
Do you think the average black American was better or worse off than these people, 400,000 of whom ended up in the U.S.? This is 4 decades or less ago.

 

[PocketZeven]

And a Mexican or Black would not be compared to someone who invaded their country and tortured and slaughtered hundreds of thousands of people. The two are definitely comparable there's no question about it. Doesn't mean they are the same but it does mean there are enough similarities that they are worth taking a look at side by side. You're dismissing it simply because it has an outcome you don't like I suspect.
Do you think the average black American was better or worse off than these people, 400,000 of whom ended up in the U.S.? This is 4 decades or less ago.

I thought you claimed you werent comparing the 2?

No they arent comparable in the sense that you cant compare the WW2 holocaust with the suffering of the chinese during japanese occupation.

Or the victims of the vietnam war with the genocide by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia.

All Horrible, but you cant compare 200+ years of being treated as a commodity with warvictims. Both horrible in their own way, but they ask for different solutions under very different circumstances. And in war there are warcriminals that get sentenced. I dont think that the slavetraders or owners received adequate punishment. I have not found records of slave killing or abuse rate, but seeing slaves had no rights. Abuse and/or killing could have been quite common as long the owners would not loose too much value out of their asset.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I thought you claimed you werent comparing the 2?

No they arent comparable in the sense that you cant compare the WW2 holocaust with the suffering of the chinese during japanese occupation:

Or the victims of the vietnam war with the genocide by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia.

All Horrible, but you cant compare 200+ years of being treated as a commodity with warvictims. Both horrible in their own way, but they ask for different solutions under very different circumstances. And in war there are warcriminals that get sentenced. I dont think that the slavetraders or owners received adequate punishment. I have not found records of slave killing or abuse rate, but seeing slaves had no rights. Abuse and/or killing could have been quite common as long the owners would not loose too much value out of their asset.

What are you even talking about? No one would argue that white people didn't benefit from slavery. The question is how much of the wealth gap is associated with slavery and how much of it is from other factors. You get to those other factors by comparing disadvantaged groups over a certain time period and comparing outcomes. Slavery, in part, determined the outcome for blacks by the time 1945 and 1978 rolled around, but there were no slaves in 1945 or 1978. You're suggesting that the outcomes of black people are directly related to slavery and that is the source of the wealth gap. So I'm moving forward in time, 1945 and 1978 specifically, and comparing two disadvantaged groups from a single starting point. Blacks vs. Japanese recently held in interment camps and treated horribly for many years after. Vietnamese boat people who were poor, destititute and starving and started with nothing in 1978. You can't seriously believe that black people as a group were worse off in 1978 than a bunch of starving people that floated over on boats with nothing but the shirts on their backs, many of who the U.S. had just spent a decade trying to kill.

There's no reason not to compare those groups and see what their financial outcomes were as a basis for starting to separate out the historical, cultural and other factors that go into determining future wealth, income and financial success.

 

[PocketZeven]

What are you even talking about? No one would argue that white people didn't benefit from slavery. The question is how much of the wealth gap is associated with slavery and how much of it is from other factors. You get to those other factors by comparing disadvantaged groups over a certain time period and comparing outcomes. Slavery, in part, determined the outcome for blacks by the time 1945 and 1978 rolled around, but there were no slaves in 1945 or 1978. You're suggesting that the outcomes of black people are directly related to slavery and that is the source of the wealth gap. So I'm moving forward in time, 1945 and 1978 specifically, and comparing two disadvantaged groups from a single starting point. Blacks vs. Japanese recently held in interment camps and treated horribly for many years after. Vietnamese boat people who were poor, destititute and starving and started with nothing in 1978. You can't seriously believe that black people as a group were worse off in 1978 than a bunch of starving people that floated over on boats with nothing but the shirts on their backs, many of who the U.S. had just spent a decade trying to kill.

There's no reason not to compare those groups and see what their financial outcomes were as a basis for starting to separate out the historical, cultural and other factors that go into determining future wealth, income and financial success.

Because the vietnamese that arrived this century benefited from the rights gained from the civil rights movement. The only comparison you can make is if the vietnamese also suffered 200+ years of slavery. I already explained in the summary that the gap is caused in great part by racism in housing. Being born in a bad neighbourhood greatly decreases the potential of your future wealth and income.

Immigrants from africa arriving in the past few decades. Apparantly black immigrants earn 30% more then american born african americans.
https://www.blackenterprise.com/black-immigrants-in-u-s-earning-30-more-than-u-s-born-blacks/

 

[Johnnypenso]

Because the vietnamese that arrived this century everyone benefited from the rights gained from the civil rights movement.

The only comparison you can make is if the vietnamese also suffered 200+ years of slavery. I already explained in the summary that the gap is caused in great part by racism in housing. Being born in a bad neighbourhood greatly decreases the potential of your future wealth and income.

Do you think Vietnamese boat people were plopped down into wealthy neighbourhoods? You're throwing up so many strawmen it's hard to keep up.

Immigrants from africa arriving in the past few decades. Apparantly black immigrants earn 30% more then american born african americans.
https://www.blackenterprise.com/black-immigrants-in-u-s-earning-30-more-than-u-s-born-blacks/

You mean immigrants from a continent that suffered under colonial rule, have had millions slaughtered through slavery, starvation and genocide, many of who are also descendents of slaves or had their descendents sold into slavery? Immigrants who presumably suffered the same level of discrimination or possibly worse than American blacks due to being being not only black but quite often darker, spoke with a funny accent and were immigrants? You mean those immigrants who had all the same handicaps as AA supposedly had and much more, have better outcomes than native born black people?

 

[Danoff]

Immigrants from africa arriving in the past few decades. Apparantly black immigrants earn 30% more then american born african americans.
https://www.blackenterprise.com/black-immigrants-in-u-s-earning-30-more-than-u-s-born-blacks/

I'm impressed that racists can tell the difference.

 

[PocketZeven]

Do you think Vietnamese boat people were plopped down into wealthy neighbourhoods? You're throwing up so many strawmen it's hard to keep up.
You mean immigrants from a continent that suffered under colonial rule, have had millions slaughtered through slavery, starvation and genocide, many of who are also descendents of slaves or had their descendents sold into slavery? Immigrants who presumably suffered the same level of discrimination or possibly worse than American blacks due to being being not only black but quite often darker, spoke with a funny accent and were immigrants? You mean those immigrants who had all the same handicaps as AA supposedly had and much more, have better outcomes than native born black people?

If your not willing to acknowledge there is difference in racism between white/black and asian/white americans in the past 300 years then you will probably never understand the racial wealth gap at all. But just out of curiosity, what is you explanation of the racial wealth gap?

I'm impressed that racists can tell the difference.

Context please. It seems like an inappropiate joke.

 

[Danoff]

If your not willing to acknowledge there is difference in racism between white/black and asian/white americans in the past 300 years then you will probably never understand the racial wealth gap at all. But just out of curiosity, what is you explanation of the racial wealth gap?

Oh oh, I know. Pick me!

There are so many groups in America that have it harder than other groups. So many that I belong to both groups who have it harder and are discriminated against, and groups that have it easier and are favored. The older I get, the more that is the case.

None of the myriad of "disadvantaged" groups benefit from being told they are victims and powerless. None of them are aided by asking people to stop treating them differently. The only thing someone in a disadvantaged group can do to make the world see that they are equal and good, is to show them. That's what Japanese Americans did following WWII. It is what women did during and following WWII. It's the only solution.

Black people don't exactly have an uphill Battle. Obama won the popular vote in this country twice. This is not a country of anti-black racism.

Edit:

69 million Americans voted for a black man to be president (in 2008) over a respected war hero. I wasn't one of them, and I'm not racist.

I think most recently it is caused by the racism of assumed victimhood for certain races. If you tell someone they are a victim of circumstance, that the system is rigged against them (regardless of whether it is true), what will their response be? To try harder? I doubt it. We've been telling certain groups of people they are victims of circumstance for a very long time, and I don't think it's a surprise that it has an effect.

Context please. It seems like an inappropiate joke.

Racists can't tell the difference between an immigrant black person and an american born black person when deciding how much less to pay them. Nor would they care. So your statistic there wildly undermines your position.

 

[Johnnypenso]

If your not willing to acknowledge there is difference in racism between white/black and asian/white americans in the past 300 years then you will probably never understand the racial wealth gap at all. But just out of curiosity, what is you explanation of the racial wealth gap?

I didn't say there wasn't a difference, in fact I believe I acknowledged more than once that they aren't identical. Situations can be comparable without being equal or identical. I can compare a Ford Sedan to a Chevy Sedan on many metrics even though they are two completely different things. I can compare a Ford Sedan to a Lamborghini as well. And I wasn't talking about 300 years. And you didn't answer any of my questions directly.

 

[PocketZeven]

Oh oh, I know. Pick me!








Racists can't tell the difference between an immigrant black person and an american born black person when deciding how much less to pay them. Nor would they care. So your statistic there wildly undermines your position.

Statistics are based on background information. There are differences in the income of white immigrants and american born white people. Hoe does it undermine the postition? Although the premise I explained in the summary is that the origin of the wealth gap was caused by slavery and early racism. This changed because of the civil rights act, however because in great part of housing, poor black people had to come from a disadvantaged postition, compared to others. In essence growing up in a poor neighbourhood. These are the majority of 42 million african americans that are caught in a vicious cycle. And I could agree that this has perhaps less to do with racism. Furthermore black immigrants dont neccesarily end up in these neighbourhoods and therefor have other opportunities to earn wealth. Like immigrants from other ethnicities.

The essence of the doc was, that if the black community had reparations (after the abolishment of slavery) and equal opportunity, the racial wealth gap would have never been this large.

If you still think in 2018 that having a black president is proof that black ethnicities dont face racism and dont have an uphill battle you are being purposefully ignorant. Do you really think there is less sexism in germany then countries with male leaders, just because it has a female leader? Believe me I believe you are the least racist person I would perhaps ever meet. But that doesnt exclude the rest of the usa being somewhat racist to extremely racist.

What is your explanation for the racial wealth gap?

 

[Danoff]

Statistics are based on background information. There are differences in the income of white immigrants and american born white people. Hoe does it undermine the postition? Although the premise I explained in the summary is that the origin of the wealth gap was caused by slavery and early racism. This changed because of the civil rights act, however because in great part of housing, poor black people had to come from a disadvantaged postition, compared to others. In essence growing up in a poor neighbourhood. These are the majority of 42 million african americans that are caught in a vicious cycle. And I could agree that this has perhaps less to do with racism. Furthermore black immigrants dont neccesarily end up in these neighbourhoods and therefor have other opportunities to earn wealth. Like immigrants from other ethnicities.

The essence of the doc was, that if the black community had reparations (after the abolishment of slavery) and equal opportunity, the racial wealth gap would have never been this large.

Uh... except for all the examples of upwardly mobile poor groups in America. You're pretty much left with racism, which your source effectively debunked.

If you still think in 2018 that having a black president is proof that black ethnicities dont face racism and dont have an uphill battle you are being purposefully ignorant. Do you really think there is less sexism in germany then countries with male leaders, just because it has a female leader? Believe me I believe you are the least racist person I would perhaps ever meet. But that doesnt exclude the rest of the usa being somewhat racist to extremely racist.

I didn't mean to imply that minorities don't ever face racism, or that it doesn't exist, or that racism doesn't make life harder for the people that it is perpetuated against. All of those things are true. What I'm saying is that it's very clear that an absolutely massive portion of the American population is demonstrably not racist (at least to a very extensive degree).

What is your explanation for the racial wealth gap?

Did you see the part where I quoted myself explaining it? Convince someone they're a victim and can't win and are owed a debt for doing nothing, and they won't push as hard.

 

[PocketZeven]

Uh... except for all the examples of upwardly mobile poor groups in America. You're pretty much left with racism, which your source effectively debunked.



I didn't mean to imply that minorities don't ever face racism, or that it doesn't exist, or that racism doesn't make life harder for the people that it is perpetuated against. All of those things are true. What I'm saying is that it's very clear that an absolutely massive portion of the American population is demonstrably not racist (at least to a very extensive degree).



Did you see the part where I quoted myself explaining it? Convince someone they're a victim and can't win and are owed a debt for doing nothing, and they won't push as hard.

No it doesnt. The article itself acknowledges that african americans have faced institutional racism and black immigrants havent and are coming to the USA to get educated. Like Italian immigrants have different opportunities then american italians.

Oh oh, I know. Pick me!

Sorry, I thought you were saying you wanted to explain the racial wealth gap? what did you mean?

 

[Danoff]

No it doesnt. The article itself acknowledges that african americans have faced institutional racism and black immigrants havent and are coming to the USA to get educated. Like Italian immigrants have different opportunities then american italians.

If you're a racist looking to underpay your black employees, do you care whether they were born here? No. So if the black immigrant population is making 30% more than the native-born population, there is something other than racism at play. And no, an immigrant from Haiti or Ethiopia does not have more access to opportunities in America than an American born black person. To suggest otherwise really strains credibility.

 

[PocketZeven]

If you're a racist looking to underpay your black employees, do you care whether they were born here? No. So if the black immigrant population is making 30% more than the native-born population, there is something other than racism at play. And no, an immigrant from Haiti or Ethiopia does not have more access to opportunities in America than an American born black person. To suggest otherwise really strains credibility.

The racial wealth gap is not about being underpayed because of racist employers. I already stated a few times they are poor, because of circumstance (poor neighbourhoods). It is also hard to gain wealth when you grow up in a white trailer park and you have been denied (because of racism or other discrimination) to get a mortgage to buy a house in a good neighbourhood, where more job opportunities and better schooling gives you more opportunity to gain wealth. children ofn african americans who live in good neighbourhoods have more potential to wealth then those who live in poor neighbourhoods.

That african american was born there in part because of said institutional racism around location and housing. You are implying that most black immigrants are poor or refugees when they come here. However the article specifically references that a lot of black immigrants arrive for education, that already gives them an advantage over african americans that dont or cant afford a study. quote:

“A lot of the African . . . immigrants are coming specifically to get an education in the States,” says Andrew McCaskill, senior vice president of global communications at Nielsen.


“High numbers are college-educated, and not only have college degrees, but also masters,” he adds.


McCaskill also says that the black immigrant population in the U.S. has a higher percentage of entrepreneurs, and an increased ability to keep dollars in their own communities.

 

[Danoff]

The racial wealth gap is not about being underpayed because of racist employers. I already stated a few times they are poor, because of circumstance (poor neighbourhoods). It is also hard to gain wealth when you grow up in a white trailer park and you have been denied (because of racism or other discrimination) to get a mortgage to buy a house in a good neighbourhood, where more job opportunities and better schooling gives you more opportunity to gain wealth. children ofn african americans who live in good neighbourhoods have more potential to wealth then those who live in poor neighbourhoods.

Has been addressed. Lots of groups have gone from poor to not poor in this country.

That african american was born there in part because of said institutional racism around location and housing. You are implying that most black immigrants are poor or refugees when they come here. However the article specifically references that a lot of black immigrants arrive for education, that already gives them an advantage over african americans that dont or cant afford a study. quote:

“A lot of the African . . . immigrants are coming specifically to get an education in the States,” says Andrew McCaskill, senior vice president of global communications at Nielsen.


“High numbers are college-educated, and not only have college degrees, but also masters,” he adds.


McCaskill also says that the black immigrant population in the U.S. has a higher percentage of entrepreneurs, and an increased ability to keep dollars in their own communities.

So the fact that they arrive for education gives them an advantage over natural-born people who... don't want an education?

 

[PocketZeven]

Has been addressed. Lots of groups have gone from poor to not poor in this country.



So the fact that they arrive for education gives them an advantage over natural-born people who... don't want an education?

Groups sounds very anecdotal.

Yes the ones who arrive with or for education have an advantage albeit skill, knowledge etc. The majority cant because of monetary reasons, I did not state they didnt want to (although there is always a percentage). What do you mean by "natural-born"?

 

[Danoff]

Groups sounds very anecdotal.

Previously discussed.

Yes the ones who arrive with or for education have an advantage albeit skill, knowledge etc. The majority cant because of monetary reasons,

Uh... what?

I did not state they didnt want to (although there is always a percentage). What do you mean by "natural-born"?

Sorry, that's kindof American short-hand. It's just a reference to people born in the US. "Natural Born Citizens" as opposed to immigrants.

 

[PocketZeven]

Previously discussed.



Uh... what?



Sorry, that's kindof American short-hand. It's just a reference to people born in the US. "Natural Born Citizens" as opposed to immigrants.

What part dont you understand? Having an education is having an advantage in wealth building compared to people with no education.

I think maybe you mix up immigrants with political and economical refugees. There are also a lot of immigrants that arrive with a certain skill or other traits.

 

[Northstar]

children ofn african americans who live in good neighbourhoods have more potential to wealth then those who live in poor neighbourhoods.

So you're saying it's a class issue and not a race issue?

That african american was born there in part because of said institutional racism around location and housing.

So what's the reason for all the white people being born into such places?

 

[Carbonox]

So what's the reason for all the white people being born into such places?

Those fools neglected to cash in their white privilege checks.

 

[Danoff]

Having an education is having an advantage in wealth building compared to people with no education.

...wanting an education on the otherhand doesn't really.

 

[PocketZeven]

So you're saying it's a class issue and not a race issue?



So what's the reason for all the white people being born into such places?

It is a combination of those. According to the documentary they ended up in the poorer class, largely because of racism.

There are always exceptions to the rule. The racial wealth gap is about the gap between an average black person and an average white person. There are probably millions of white people in poverty too. And the reason why the wealth gap is so large is probably because the (white) rich 1% is only getting richer, while the rest stays the same. The median for white families is 111k. So are you in that median? And do you consider yourself middleclass?

 

[Johnnypenso]

What part dont you understand? Having an education is having an advantage in wealth building compared to people with no education.

I think maybe you mix up immigrants with political and economical refugees. There are also a lot of immigrants that arrive with a certain skill or other traits.

Who bears the responsibility for educating the poor in the U.S. to lift help lift them out of poverty? Who controls the education of children up until the age of 18?

 

[Danoff]

And the reason why the wealth gap is so large is probably because the (white) rich 1% is only getting richer, while the rest stays the same.

What difference does it make? Who cares? Why does it matter who is in the top 1%?

Good luck tracing any of the fortunes of the wealthiest people in the US back to slavery btw. It doesn't last more than basically 2 generations before it's squandered.

 

[PocketZeven]

What difference does it make? Who cares? Why does it matter who is in the top 1%?

Good luck tracing any of the fortunes of the wealthiest people in the US back to slavery btw. It doesn't last more than basically 2 generations before it's squandered.

You misunderstood the quoted post. I meant that the statistical racial wealth gap had grown even larger the past decade and that isn’t because the white middle and lower class got wealthier, but exclusively the richest 1%, which make the statistical average a bit warped. Meaning that the last time I checked the wealth white middle and lower class actually dropped the past decade.

 

[Danoff]

You misunderstood the quoted post. I meant that the statistical racial wealth gap had grown even larger the past decade and that isn’t because the white middle and lower class got wealthier, but exclusively the richest 1%, which make the statistical average a bit warped.

Ok... and so... what conclusion are you drawing from that?

 

[PocketZeven]

Ok... and so... what conclusion are you drawing from that?

No conclusion in particular I just added context. The racial wealth gap in the bottom 90% has actually not grown that significant as I first thought.

 

[stonesfan129]

See the part where it says "No Italian." Yes white people have always had it soooo easy in America. I think the same type of discrimination was commonplace against Irish and Catholics. Asian immigrants were basically enslaved into building the railroads. But nope, they're privileged too apparently.

 

[PocketZeven]

See the part where it says "No Italian." Yes white people have always had it soooo easy in America. I think the same type of discrimination was commonplace against Irish and Catholics. Asian immigrants were basically enslaved into building the railroads. But nope, they're privileged too apparently.

Interesting photo of american history. What is your argument though?

 

[stonesfan129]

Interesting photo of american history. What is your argument though?

People act like white people have never had it tough in America.