White Privilege

[PocketZeven]

I just want to say nothing is stopping you, or anyone in favor of reparations, from donating money to a cause that you support. It's not an all or nothing thing where everyone in a given population needs to contribute to a particular solution. What might be polarizing is telling people that they need to pay other people that they haven't even so much as interacted with, let alone harmed. Giving money (or other support) to people that you feel need it is less likely to generate a negative response.

Sorry, but I am not american. You are right that this discussion can polarise the people, but ignoring the issue, will also not magically make it disappear. I have not claimed there should be somekind of direct monetary payment. At least be open for alternative ways to reduce the wealth-gap, to which it essentially boils down to. But after hearing your opinions I hope the next generation will hopefully improve the situation and help everyone, regardless of race to fullfill their potential.

Is it "positivity" when someone who is qualified loses out on a job or scholarship or seat to someone who is far less qualified simply because of the color of there skin? It is not more akin to fighting fire with fire rather than creating equality?

But by inaction, you condone that people will be rejected because of the colour of their skin, even though he/she is qualified. It kind of is a vicious cycle. One cant create equality by inaction, but by action you create inequality?!?

 

[Northstar]

you condone that people will be rejected because of the colour of their skin, even though he/she is qualified.

That's literally what affirmative action does.

 

[Rallywagon]

Sorry, but I am not american. You are right that this discussion can polarise the people, but ignoring the issue, will also not magically make it disappear. I have not claimed there should be somekind of direct monetary payment. At least be open for alternative ways to reduce the wealth-gap, to which it essentially boils down to. But after hearing your opinions I hope the next generation will hopefully improve the situation and help everyone, regardless of race to fullfill their potential.



But by inaction, you condone that people will be rejected because of the colour of their skin, even though he/she is qualified. It kind of is a vicious cycle. One cant create equality by inaction, but by action you create inequality?!?

There are already laws that make it illegal to discriminate in hiring based on sex, race and religion. Laws that force an employer to hire someone based solely on race... that sounds a lot like institutional racism doesnt it?

Edit: cleaned up my post.

 

[PocketZeven]

That's literally what affirmative action does.

But by not implementing it you are accepting institutional racism.

It boils down to adressing racism (towards the minority) is apparantly racist (to the dominant ethnicity). By not adressing racism you are accepting racism.

To my own values however I think adressing racism is preferable to not doing anything.

Inaction in forcing racism? It's already illegal to not hir

There are already laws that make it illegal to discriminate in hiring based on sex, race and religion. Laws that force an employer to hire someone based solely on race... that sounds a lot like institutional racism doesnt it?

Making it illegal does not prevent it from happening if it isnt enforced properly.

edit: not enforcing, but accepting.

 

[Exorcet]

Sorry, but I am not american.

That doesn't make a difference.

You are right that this discussion can polarise the people, but ignoring the issue, will also not magically make it disappear. I have not claimed there should be somekind of direct monetary payment. At least be open for alternative ways to reduce the wealth-gap, to which it essentially boils down to. But after hearing your opinions I hope the next generation will hopefully improve the situation and help everyone, regardless of race to fullfill their potential.

I didn't read every post in the thread, but it seemed like the idea being put forth was that the government would pay. That basically means taxpayers would pay, which is essentially a direct payment.

I agree that closing any wealth gap is a noble goal, so long as it's done the right way.

But by inaction, you condone that people will be rejected because of the colour of their skin, even though he/she is qualified. It kind of is a vicious cycle. One cant create equality by inaction, but by action you create inequality?!?

As someone who was encouraged to take advantage of affirmative action, I can only really see it as a needless discriminatory practice. The alternative isn't inaction, it's focusing on the core issues directly (ie help those who qualify for school but can't afford it, rather than assume that all minorities need help).

 

[Danoff]

You want to eliminate racism then evaluate the person on their qualifications, accomplishments and abilities PERIOD!

Affirmative action has its own thread. I wasn't commenting on whether it is a good idea.

 

[PocketZeven]

That doesn't make a difference.


I didn't read every post in the thread, but it seemed like the idea being put forth was that the government would pay. That basically means taxpayers would pay, which is essentially a direct payment.

I agree that closing any wealth gap is a noble goal, so long as it's done the right way.




As someone who was encouraged to take advantage of affirmative action, I can only really see it as a needless discriminatory practice. The alternative isn't inaction, it's focusing on the core issues directly (ie help those who qualify for school but can't afford it, rather than assume that all minorities need help).

I was actually encouraging to look outside of the box. I like the ideas of Cory booker that essentially says that reparation should concentrate on all less fortunate instead of just the decendants of the slaves. I understand why many dislike the idea of paying for it in tax, but you live in a democracy so dont vote for the candidate that is for it, but at least accept it when the majority decide for it.

 

[ryzno]

I'm sorry I found the last line funny!

 

[Exorcet]

I was actually encouraging to look outside of the box. I like the ideas of Cory booker that essentially says that reparation should concentrate on all less fortunate instead of just the decendants of the slaves. I understand why many dislike the idea of paying for it in tax, but you live in a democracy so dont vote for the candidate that is for it, but at least accept it when the majority decide for it.

The issue isn't the tax, but the moral implication of forced payment and the issue of the people involved not being around any longer. I also don't consider majority support sufficient in determining what should be done. There was a time when the majority in the US supported slavery and it was still as wrong then as it is now.

I agree with helping those in need, but defining what "in need" is can be tricky and ultimately I think a little more responsibility needs to be shifted on the people calling for action to go out and make change happen even if not everyone is on their side.

 

[Dotini]

I agree with helping those in need, but defining what "in need" is can be tricky

When you've got a population huddling in permanent, hopeless poverty in the ghetto all shooting each other and doing drugs, the need is not tricky but it is obvious.

I, and only I, currently know the correct solution.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

I was actually encouraging to look outside of the box. I like the ideas of Cory booker that essentially says that reparation should concentrate on all less fortunate instead of just the decendants of the slaves.

And if those reparations were based on race in addition to poverty then you have a politician promoting racist ideas and programs. What is the difference in a poor black, asian, hispanic or white except their race and color of their skin?

The more you post the more racist ideals it seems you want to promote. Do you think that a black person is the only ones that may deal with racist or economic class bias?

You do not seem to want to eliminate racism as a problem just give more free stuff to certain races under the guise of a reparation payment.

 

[PocketZeven]

The issue isn't the tax, but the moral implication of forced payment and the issue of the people involved not being around any longer. I also don't consider majority support sufficient in determining what should be done. There was a time when the majority in the US supported slavery and it was still as wrong then as it is now.

I agree with helping those in need, but defining what "in need" is can be tricky and ultimately I think a little more responsibility needs to be shifted on the people calling for action to go out and make change happen even if not everyone is on their side.

Actually the majority eventually decided against slavery. But I think there are lots of people already trying to do the right thing.

And if those reparations were based on race in addition to poverty then you have a politician promoting racist ideas and programs. What is the difference in a poor black, asian, hispanic or white except their race and color of their skin?

The more you post the more racist ideals it seems you want to promote. Do you think that a black person is the only ones that may deal with racist or economic class bias?

You do not seem to want to eliminate racism as a problem just give more free stuff to certain races under the guise of a reparation payment.

His proposition is not racist at all. I presume you are biased against democrats? You apparantly dont even know what he is actually propositioning:

"Booker has introduced the American Opportunity Accounts Act, a bill that seeks to address the wealth gap by creating a trust account for every baby born in America, irrespective of racial or class background. The trust would receive annual deposits related directly to family income. These so-called baby bonds would be withdrawable once the child reaches 18 and could only be spent on purchasing property or to pay for higher education or training."

Quite out of the box, but something I think more people could support. It reallocates the reparations to the future generation that might need it. All without re-adressing race again, but the actual wealth gap. the idea is by adressing the wealth gap, eventually but indirectly, racism and the victims of slavery will finally receive some kind of reparation.

Once again adressing racism is not racist (perhaps to the few of the dominant ethnicity). Reparation is a legitimate issue that needs discussion and not just swept under the rug. Institutional racism in the USA is a result of slavery. It doesnt boil down to giving free stuff to certain races, but correcting the wealth gap that was created when president Lincoln was killed and the 40 acres that were promised to these slaves, where taken back from the slaves.

 

[Danoff]

"Booker has introduced the American Opportunity Accounts Act, a bill that seeks to address the wealth gap by creating a trust account for every baby born in America, irrespective of racial or class background. The trust would receive annual deposits related directly to family income. These so-called baby bonds would be withdrawable once the child reaches 18 and could only be spent on purchasing property or to pay for higher education or training."

Quite out of the box, but something I think more people could support.

So it's a 529 plan funded by the government based on... it's not reparations at all then? What does this have to do with the topic at hand?

Edit:

Nevermind, it's just a savings account for kids funded by the government. Yes let's try to absolve parents of any responsibility at all of their kids. That'll be great for keeping parents engaged in raising children.

This is totally off topic.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

"Booker has introduced the American Opportunity Accounts Act, a bill that seeks to address the wealth gap by creating a trust account for every baby born in America, irrespective of racial or class background. The trust would receive annual deposits related directly to family income. These so-called baby bonds would be withdrawable once the child reaches 18 and could only be spent on purchasing property or to pay for higher education or training."

Just again rewarding people for expecting someone else to pay their way. So now you are including another form of socialism as someone is working to make those deposits and you are taking their earnings and giving it to someone that has not earned.

I agree how is this related to White Privilege?

 

[PocketZeven]

So it's a 529 plan funded by the government based on... it's not reparations at all then? What does this have to do with the topic at hand?

Edit:

Nevermind, it's just a savings account for kids funded by the government. Yes let's try to absolve parents of any responsibility at all of their kids. That'll be great for keeping parents engaged in raising children.

This is totally off topic.

the proposition of Booker is what he is proposing as reparation. I think it is a good alternative that doesnt polarise black vs white, but adresses the more important issue of the wealth gap.

It is essentially taking the reparations and reallocating to the ones that need it. You were right that perhaps many descendants probably dont need it anymore. But that still doesnt adress the wealth gap.

Just again rewarding people for expecting someone else to pay their way. So now you are including another form of socialism as someone is working to make those deposits and you are taking their earnings and giving it to someone that has not earned.

I agree how is this related to White Privilege?

It is adressing reparation without making it about race. Booker thinks that racism can best be fought by adressing the wealth gap. That is why he is proposing this alternative to reparations.

Perhaps this video will explain his views. To be clear I favor Warren or Bernie as presidential candidate. But bookers views on racism are interesting to me.

 

[Danoff]

the proposition of Booker is what he is proposing as reparation. I think it is a good alternative that doesnt polarise black vs white, but adresses the more important issue of the wealth gap.

It is essentially taking the reparations and reallocating to the ones that need it. You were right that perhaps many descendants probably dont need it anymore. But that still doesnt adress the wealth gap.

Uh... how is that reparations? That's just welfare.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

adresses the more important issue of the wealth gap.

Address the wealth gap by getting a job, making smart choices with your earnings and acquire your assets like most others regardless of wealth with hard work and smart choices. Not free welfare off what others have earned.

Ever heard the fable about the ant and grasshopper? Acquiring assets which translate to wealth works the same way!

 

[PocketZeven]

Uh... how is that reparations? That's just welfare.

I know its unothodox. But I think it is adressing the problem of the wealth gap created by slavery and prevent making it about race.

Address the wealth gap by getting a job, making smart choices with your earnings and acquire your assets like most others regardless of wealth with hard work and smart choices. Not free welfare off what others have earned.

Ever heard the fable about the ant and grasshopper? Acquiring assets which translate to wealth works the same way!

What you are saying is exactly white privelege. Life isnt that easy in poorer places. For any race. Wellfare is supposed to help the people that cant help themselves and not the "lazy". It helps millions of people. Do you really think the majority of black people on wellfare are lazy or ecploit the system? That is misconception created by the extreme right.

 

[Danoff]

I know its unothodox. But I think it is adressing the problem of the wealth gap created by slavery and prevent making it about race.

Ok, I'm squinting here...

So the idea is that some measure of wealth gap in some populations can be traced to slavery, and so a program aimed at addressing a wealth gap as a whole (not limited to that population) is a reparation for slavery because presumably it also helps those people.

No that's not a "reparation", that's just "redistribution". Nice try redistribution, we caught you!

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Sorry, but I am not american.

To be clear I favor Warren or Bernie as presidential candidate.

Off topic but why does possible American candidates really make any difference to you if you are not an American citizen and actually even the topic of slavery reparations due to American history from 150 years ago?

What you are saying is exactly white privelege. Life isnt that easy in poorer places. For any race

Actually how is this a white privilege issue when you claim race is not involved? Hard work and smart choices are not race exclusive by any means.

 

[PocketZeven]

Ok, I'm squinting here...

So the idea is that some measure of wealth gap in some populations can be traced to slavery, and so a program aimed at addressing a wealth gap as a whole (not limited to that population) is a reparation for slavery because presumably it also helps those people.

No that's not a "reparation", that's just "redistribution". Nice try redistribution, we caught you!

I understanding your skepticism. But this video perhaps explains the wealth gap better then I can:



Edit: meaning that redistribution might combat segregation.

Off topic but why does possible American candidates really make any difference to you if you are not an American citizen and actually even the topic of slavery reparations due to American history from 150 years ago?

Actually how is this a white privilege issue when you claim race is not involved? Hard work and smart choices are not race exclusive by any means.

I am just voicing my opinion and sharing my views. You can equally discuss European politics with me if you want.

Because you don’t understand the nuance of being a minority in a poor neighborhood. You are suggesting that the poor are poor for not working hard and making smart choices. Now it happens to be that black people are much less poorer then whites. Why do you think that is?

 

[Danoff]

I understanding your skepticism. But this video perhaps explains the wealth gap better then I can:

Watched it, wasted my time again. Didn't I already explain the inheritance issue? The video just assumes that houses are passed from one generation to the next, but as I already explained, for the vast majority of people, they're not. Money doesn't pass through generations like the video pretends, again, this is something I refuted earlier, and you're presenting it back to me as though someone else saying it is going to be more convincing. The video doesn't even claim that housing is passed on, just that it "can" be. Great, so your previous statistics about housing are somewhat meaningless then aren't they.

Also, that video did not establish a link between slavery and.. anything. It tried to link racist lending policies from the early 1900s to today. Very different.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

I understanding your skepticism. But this video perhaps explains the wealth gap better then I can:





I am just voicing my opinion and sharing my views. You can equally discuss European politics with me if you want.

Because you don’t understand the nuance of being a minority in a poor neighborhood. You are suggesting that the poor are poor for not working hard and making smart choices. Now it happens to be that black people are much less poorer then whites. Why do you think that is?

Your video about housing and wealth is from CNN well known for its left leaning political stance.
I can say I know for a fact that a house in my area bought in 1977 for 36,000 dollar sale price sold in 1994 for 180,000 dollar sale price. Now a black, asian, hispanic or a white could have bought that property and if it had been maintained the same way it would have been worth the same amount. Your video makes it sounds like after 1968 home buyers could not acquire wealth through their property purchase and that is not true.

Also the reason behind the sub prime mortgage was less than stellar credit ratings, or not meeting the down payment requirements for certain loans with better interest rates but that again was not because their skin was black. The mortgage rules are the same regardless of race.

So again making it sound like it is race by using a bias media video that is promoting a left agenda does not change the fact that the rules are the same for all and have been since the 60's. Race is not the factor but choices can well be.

 

[PocketZeven]

Watched it, wasted my time again. Didn't I already explain the inheritance issue? The video just assumes that houses are passed from one generation to the next, but as I already explained, for the vast majority of people, they're not. Money doesn't pass through generations like the video pretends, again, this is something I refuted earlier, and you're presenting it back to me as though someone else saying it is going to be more convincing. The video doesn't even claim that housing is passed on, just that it "can" be. Great, so your previous statistics about housing are somewhat meaningless then aren't they.

Also, that video did not establish a link between slavery and.. anything. It tried to link racist lending policies from the early 1900s to today. Very different.

There is a documentary behind a paywall that explains it from slavery. I am not sure if you would take the time to view it if I asked politely.

What other explanation do you have for specifically the racial wealthgap? And should it be solved? Or just hope for the best?

Your video about housing and wealth is from CNN well known for its left leaning political stance.
I can say I know for a fact that a house in my area bought in 1977 for 36,000 dollar sale price sold in 2004 for 180,000 dollar sale price. Now a black, asian, hispanic or a white could have bought that property and if it had been maintained the same way it would have been worth the same amount. Your video makes it sounds like after 1968 home buyers could not acquire wealth through their property purchase and that is not true.

Also the reason behind the sub prime mortgage was less than stellar credit ratings, or not meeting the down payment requirements for certain loans with better interest rates but that again was not because their skin was black. The mortgage rules are the same regardless of race.

So again making it sound like it is race by using a bias media video that is promoting a left agenda does not change the fact that the rules are the same for all and have been since the 60's. Race is not the factor but choices can well be.

I get that bias, but there is always bias in various networks. The videos do describe facts. And it’s hard to explain the 17x difference in median wealth between black and whites without addressing race. Like I said ignoring racism doesn’t make it go away. Why do you think black Americans have less median wealth?

Edit: do you really believe racial wealth gap is there because of the choices they made and not of racism?

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Like I said ignoring racism doesn’t make it go away. Why do you think black Americans have less median wealth?

Just like I brought up a local school system that for the 2018 school year the SOL test scores the black students in the school scored way lower even though they had the same school, same teachers and same classes as the students of other races. So the opportunity is the same so why are their scores lower?

Want to blame the teachers? Want to blame their school is not as good? Or do you blame the ones actually responsible the black students that failed to make the scores?

Society cannot continue to blame everyone else for the lack of progress and advancement of the black race in this country. Plenty of other races come to this country and seem to find ample success within fairly short time frames. But many of the blacks still struggle to even meet minimum levels to advance even after 50 years of social programs to help in that very task.
Most ghetto areas are inhabited by blacks and many of these areas were nice areas until they took over the areas. Ever notice that some of the worse places in our country are run by blacks? Is that surprising?

Yes there are problems but the what is needed to fix that problem is a mirror for those that continue to fail and move forward for decades can look into and see they are not only the problem but the solution. The other races cannot fix their internal problems that continually are holding them back. They have had the helping hand for 50 years now it is time to poop or get off the pot.

THE LAST HALF A CENTURY has proven handouts are not the solution.

 

[Danoff]

What other explanation do you have for specifically the racial wealthgap?

Victimhood and racism. I explained this to you. I'm getting the feeling that you're not listening.

And should it be solved? Or just hope for the best?

Start by refusing to promote victimhood (the opposite of what is happening now), and let racism die with old people.

 

[Dennisch]

I visited this castle today :

The brick walls of that thing aren't as thick as the one I'm seeing in this thread.

 

[Dotini]

IMO, the reparation should hew as closely as possible to the original promise. Here it is: https://www.pbs.org/wnet/african-am...history/the-truth-behind-40-acres-and-a-mule/

There are vast sections of South Dakota, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, Colorado, Arizona and New Mexico which are currently federal lands. Without doubt, 400,000 arable acres close to water should be distributed to black families and individuals descended from the freed slaves up to a figure of 4,000,000. The original plan was for 40 acres per 10 person family. I would be extra generous and allow a US made pick-up, tractor or other farm vehicle distributed in place of the mules. Should the plan prove successful, it could be expanded at the vote of Congress. At the end of the day, hopefully all ghettos from major cities across the land could be razed to the ground and redeveloped, except for historical and other designated structures.

 

[Danoff]

Without doubt, 400,000 arable acres close to water should be distributed to black families and individuals descended from the freed slaves up to a figure of 4,000,000.

In light of everything I said over the last several pages, why?

 

[Dotini]

In light of everything I said over the last several pages, why?

I don't give a fig about what you said. My plan is the just, fair and right thing to do. A promise is a promise. Virtue is its own reward. Any cost incurred will be more than made up by the economic advancement of the black families and the reduction in crime.