Why this whole forum is actually pretty useless

[Zardoz]

By "useless" I mean, of course, that all the sound and fury of the debates and arguments that go on here have done virtually nothing to change anyone's mind about anything. The pitifully few exceptions (which there must be, although I can't think of any at all) only prove the point.

This may be why:

Democrats and Republicans Both Adept at Ignoring Facts, Study Finds

"None of the circuits involved in conscious reasoning were particularly engaged," Westen said. "Essentially, it appears as if partisans twirl the cognitive kaleidoscope until they get the conclusions they want, and then they get massively reinforced for it, with the elimination of negative emotional states and activation of positive ones."

That's us, huh? Change "Democrats and Republicans" to "Creationists and Evolutionists" or "Militarists and Pacifists" or "Environmentalists and Economists" or "Liberals and Conservatives" and it will apply perfectly well, won't it?

We see this at work here on the forum all the time, don't we? That's why Swift will always be a Creationist, Famine and danoff will never feel human activity will do much harm to the biosphere, Viper Zero will always believe firepower can solve most problems, and I will always believe we drooling buffoons are well on our way to pretty much killing ourselves off.

Notably absent were any increases in activation of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain most associated with reasoning...The result is that partisan beliefs are calcified, and the person can learn very little from new data.

"Calcified", indeed. Cast in concrete. Chiseled in granite. Epoxy-encapsulated.

We'll never change our opinions no matter how much hard evidence we're buried in. We're incapable of it. Our brains won't let us do it.

 

[a6m5]

Is it useless because too many people are too stubborn to change their positions? I see what you are saying, but I disagree. Even in those threads that does remind you of rowing a boat with one oar, I learn. There are times, I genuinely appreciate input from the opposing sides. Opposing side does not equal 100% wrong. From the Creation/Evolution thread to the latest Iraq related thread, I almost always agree with at least some of what both sides has to say.

I'm not gonna name names, because I'll leave somebody out and hurt their feelings ( ), but there are quite few members here that through their posts, they educate me. From both sides. I can definitely say that more time I spend in this forum, less stupid I get.

 

[Small_Fryz]

Is it useless because too many people are too stubborn to change their positions? I see what you are saying, but I disagree. Even in those threads that does remind you of rowing a boat with one oar, I learn. There are times, I genuinely appreciate input from the opposing sides. Opposing side does not equal 100% wrong. From the Creation/Evolution thread to the latest Iraq related thread, I almost always agree with at least some of what both sides has to say.

I'm not gonna name names, because I'll leave somebody out and hurt their feelings ( ), but there are quite few members here that through their posts, they educate me. From both sides. I can definitely say that more time I spend in this forum, less stupid I get.

Ditto..

I try to reason with both sides and leave my opinion and personal feelings out of it. You have to look at these things with no bias. which not many people can do.

Ive gone barreleing into an argument on the wrong side simply because i didnt understand the two sides and was mis informed.

I really enjoy reading a lot of the opinions forum however it is quite hard for me to post my thoughts, as a lot of them are hard to find proof as to why i think the way i do (normally they are conclusions ive come to after reading lots and lots of information from both sides)... which makes it easy for the opposite side to make me look stupid.

 

[Kylehnat]

it is quite hard for me to post my thoughts, as a lot of them are hard to find proof as to why i think the way i do

That doesn't stop a lot of people from posting anyway

I agree that nobody in here is likely to change their stance on anything, but I do see a lot of good information being posted, and people learning new facts, which can't hurt.

 

[FoolKiller]

By "useless" I mean, of course, that all the sound and fury of the debates and arguments that go on here have done virtually nothing to change anyone's mind about anything. The pitifully few exceptions (which there must be, although I can't think of any at all) only prove the point.

Danoff convinced me that there is no reasoning behind making abortion illegal based on my own politics.


Although I do understand what you mean. There have been numerous debates that I have either been a part of or just read over where the person who agrees with what teh law is continually falls back on "because that is what the law says," or "well, I agree with the law, "as if that defends the position. I find this to be the response given when a person runs out of reasoning for their argument but refuses to change their mind and knows they have the backing of the government and if teh government says so then it must be right. If that were the case we wouldn't have Congressional debates. Then to irritate me a bit more they will disagree with the law or teh government in another thread. I get highly tempted to say, "Well, it is the law," and leave it at that.

My wife and a friend both did this to me about two weeks ago. I had to walk away before I screamed.

 

[Swift]

I don't think this forum is about changing people's minds. I think it is about making people defend their position on issues.

I've learned to do that much better since I've been a regular visitor to this forum. Famine and Danoff both FORCED me to become more knowledgeable about the things I believed in. And even changed my mind on a few things, like unemployment insurance.

So I think this forum has an excellent purpose. Not as a place to change one's mind, but as a place to find enlightenment on your own views.

 

[Kylehnat]

It also allows everyone to see more deeply into the other side of the argument. 500 years ago, danoff, Famine, myself and others would have been burned at the stake for bringing up issues of "science" and "human nature". Thankfully, we live in a more tolerant society now. People are willing to listen to the other side, and willing to analyze it critically, rather than to caste us as witches and throw us off a cliff with a broom.

 

[Keef]

Why do they pbase everything on the differences between democrats and republicans? Those parties are the truly useless things. All they do is slow things down, confuse people, cause arguments, debates, lawsuits, all sorts of bull. It's human nature to only listen to what you want to. Ignoring facts isn't only a politician related problem, everyone does it. Everyone in the world.
So independent people listen to, understand, and condider all facts? I don't believe that's possible. Everyone has free will, everyone can make thier own ideas. Some people are scared to make thier own ideas, but then again not, because if they choose not to speak out or choose to be indifferent they just made their own idea.
I hate labels. Why can't we just hire whoever has the better ideas? Why do we have to say democrat or republican? You do realize the the people who carried out this study had some sort of political bias and therefore maybe they only payed attention to what they wanted to. How do we know they told all the facts in that study? Obviously they didn't, because every single human is insanely good at ignoring whatever, not just repubs and 'crats.
I enjoy the opinions forum much, and I have learned much from the people who frequent it. That's pretty much everyone, but there are a few notables that seem to be very informed and one guy in articular who I believe to be God himself. That proves it--he is one of us. Anyway, I've learned a lot in the short time I've posted in this forum and I have changed the way I think about a few things. I think this forum is one of the most useful and constructive on the whole site.
Oh, I forgot something. Politicians are old people. How many are younger than 30 or so? Not many, especially at the federal level. I don't know if you've ever noticed this, but old people don't change thier minds. Kids change thier minds all the time when they get a new piece of info, some new facts from real scientists, etc. Also, it is mandatory for a politician to join one side or the other, or else they won't survive. The goverment is just a bunch of caniving bastards. Most are lawyers and nothing good can come from that. Sure, they tell the truth, but they've ignored the part about The Whole Truth. Did I say they ignored something?

 

[Danoff]

The reason people have trouble changing their mind is because they tend not to challenge their own beliefs. As Zardoz mentioned, people have a tendancy to listen to the information that supports their own viewpoint, and dismiss the information that doesn't. We both exhibit this on a routine basis in the global warming thread - where Zardoz posts only information supporting the theory that mankind causes global warming, and I dismiss it and post information for him to dismiss.

But the reason we don't get anywhere is because we don't dig deep enough. If had doctorates in global weather patterns we could probably sit down and hash it out. We could stack data up next to other data and beat the issue until someone's data fell apart.

Philosophical issues are another story altogether. Questions about right and wrong aren't a matter of data, they're a matter of philosophy. That's something that's very easy to dig deeply into and find the root of the disagreement. I find that it's very rare in an philosophical debate that one reaches an impass (though it isn't rare for someone to claim an impass has been reached).

But most people (republicans and democrats alike) haven't thought enough about philosophy to formulate and solidfy a consistent view. That prevents both groups from making any inroads. When you're arguing that something is right because it feels right to you, you're not going to convince very many people (unless they feel it too).

A lot of the purpose of the opinions thread for me has been just to help me explore my own philosophy. Since I started coming here... maybe 3-4 years ago... I've been looking for someone to expose a flaw in my reasoning. Instead, I've converted a few people.

For me, the opinions board is entirely about my own views and understanding or disproving them. So far it's been very useful for that. This forum provides a safe environment for bouncing political and religious ideas off of each other without fear that the whole thing will become a fist fight.

 

[Zardoz]

...We both exhibit this on a routine basis in the global warming thread - where Zardoz posts only information supporting the theory that mankind causes global warming, and I dismiss it and post information for him to dismiss.

Tell me about it.

...This forum provides a safe environment for bouncing political and religious ideas off of each other without fear that the whole thing will become a fist fight.

And for that alone it's quite worthwhile.

 

[Kylehnat]

And there is very little "your stoopid" going on in the Opinions forum. People may go off on tangential tirades, but they at least post something that's worth reading, and it doesn't start a flame war.

 

[Max_DC]

Well I think in general discussing a topic is a good, interesting or entertaining thing. But sometimes it is or becomes kind of useless imo. Creation vs. Evolution for example. Because in the end that thread is about believes and discussing about stuff like that usually doesn't result in anything. The believers will always believe and the others won't...
Then again, nobody needs to read/post in Creation VS Evolution and those who do, seem to be happy with it. I think GTP offers enough subforums for everybody...

 

[Kylehnat]

I think we should implement a rule that forces new members to read through the ENTIRE Creation v. Evolution thread before they can post anywhere in these forums. It would be a good hazing ritual

 

[Danoff]

I think we should implement a rule that forces new members to read through the ENTIRE Creation v. Evolution thread before they can post anywhere in these forums. It would be a good hazing ritual

That's a pretty good idea actually. It would cut down on some of the growth in that thread too.

 

[Swift]

That's a pretty good idea actually. It would cut down on some of the growth in that thread too.

With almost 200 pages, I'd call it more a punishment then initiation. But it would help people to understand how the forum works.

 

[FoolKiller]

I'd call it more a punishment then initiation.

As opposed to other forms of hazing?


Even if no one else find this forum useful I have found it a great place to argue issues when my wife decides "shut up" is her defense or my brother becomes belligerent. Since work has implemented their stricter harassment policy (I sat through a company-wide mandatory two hour class today) no one will debate serious issues that might be overheard and misinterpreted.

Whenever an issue has me fired up I can come in here and 99% of the time find the debate has already started. On top of that I learn more from multiple various points of view and makes me rethink my position or strengthens it.

 

[niky]

And there is very little "your stoopid" going on in the Opinions forum. People may go off on tangential tirades, but they at least post something that's worth reading, and it doesn't start a flame war.

You know, that's a very interesting observation. Most of the major flamers have died down now, and most of the guys left in here are the ones who are actually willing to discuss.

I'm not one for changing my mind much, either... but I do change my mind over time... and I find discussions on here very stimulating... while I might not agree with some of you guys on some things, I find you all to be very gentlemanly opponents... it's always refreshing to find debate opponents who have facts and logical precepts behind their beliefs.

Except Famine... curse him for always being right... whether I agree with him or not...

 

[Zardoz]

...Except Famine... curse him for always being right...

*bites tongue, navigates away from page*

 

[niky]

It's actually great being on the other side from him... because he makes you work so hard for your brownie points.

 

[Perfect Balance]

I don't think a few bad points about a forum's members qualifies a whole entire community as useless. I learned a lot here, I get a lot of information from this place. If you have been here and havn't learned anything yet, then that is your own fault, not something with the forum. When "democrats and republicans" debate over something in this forum, they might not change their personal opinion about the subject, but you learn a lot from their posts.

 

[ledhed]

I can type a bit better and actually form a few complete sentences with a smidgen of proper punctuation. I can even spell a few words correctly .

So it has not been a total waste .

And there is also pie . Dont forget pie . I wonder if Kevin ever got his kidney returned ?