With fuel economy being a concern, why not have hybrid-diesels?

[Majarvis]

I just thought of something. With all of the emphasis on hybrid-gasoline vehicles nowadays, why aren't manufacturers looking at hybrid-diesel engines for their hybrid vehicles?

If they want really high fuel efficiency, then hybrid-diesel engines would give them even better results than would hybrd-gasoline engines, wouldn' they?

Discuss.

 

[the Interceptor]

There's just been introduced a hybrid diesel from Peugeot on the Geneva motor show:

http://wiredblogs.tripod.com/cars/

 

[Majarvis]

There's just been introduced a hybrid diesel from Peugeot on the Geneva motor show:

http://wiredblogs.tripod.com/cars/

Interesting, thanks.

It begs the question why they didn't start with diesel-hybrids in the first place, which would yield far better fuel economy than gasoline-hybrids. I suppose it has a large part to do with the quality of diesel fuel in North America not being up to par with that in Europe, and diesels in general being less popular in North America.

Hopefully we'll see more diesel-hybrids in the coming years with post-2006 diesel being on par with European diesel for quality.

 

[Freddie]

They've had problems with the stop-start mechanisms that are to shut down the engines when the cars were standing still or travelling at low speeds. They've been working on it for years now, and it's just until recently been problematic in having the devices work properly and reliably.

As for diesel-hybrids unveiled, PSA has, in addition to the 307CC, also a 307 hatchback and a Citroén C4. The first diesel-hybrids will be ready for the market in 2010, they say.

All the prototypes had a fuel consumption of 3,4 liters/100km (2/3 of a Prius'), at combined cycle.

 

[a6m5]

Two reasons that I can think of:
1) For the protection of environment. Cleaner air.

2) To keep it simple. Most drivers have never driven diesel cars, so diesel-hybrid would've been a tougher sell.

 

[Majarvis]

Two reasons that I can think of:
1) For the protection of environment. Cleaner air.

2) To keep it simple. Most drivers have never driven diesel cars, so diesel-hybrid would've been a tougher sell.

I believe these reasons are nonsense, sorry.

Diesels produce less harmful emissions than gasoline engines. Also, let me ask you this, is it more complicated to drive a diesel than it is to drive a gasoline powered car? Do you have to drive differently? (ie. flip a bunch of switches and wait for launch command to let you go?).

That is absolutely absurd, in my mind, sorry, but a diesel-hybrid is no different to drive than a gasoline-hybrid.

 

[TheCracker]

Do you have to drive differently? (ie. flip a bunch of switches and wait for launch command to let you go?).

Yes, to an extent, you have to wait for the fuel heaters (coils) to warm the fuel to the correct level of viscosity.

Perhaps switching from running in full electric mode, to suddenly wanting the diesel engine to cut in, is the problem?

 

[a6m5]

I believe these reasons are nonsense, sorry.

Diesels produce less harmful emissions than gasoline engines. Also, let me ask you this, is it more complicated to drive a diesel than it is to drive a gasoline powered car? Do you have to drive differently? (ie. flip a bunch of switches and wait for launch command to let you go?).

That is absolutely absurd, in my mind, sorry, but a diesel-hybrid is no different to drive than a gasoline-hybrid.

You don't have to apologize to me. The question was "why aren't manufacturers looking at hybrid-diesel engines for their hybrid vehicles?", so I answered it from the hybrid car makers point of view.

It's not that diesel is complicated, but it has different characteristics(noisier, rougher). It does drive differently. I just thought of another: cost. Hybrid engines are pretty expensive as it is. Diesel based hybrid will cost even more.

P.S. I had no idea that diesel engines had cleaner emissions than gas engines!

 

[xcsti]

I thought diesels had lower co2 emmissions but had higher levels of other pollutants. Though they can counter those with uric injection.

 

[SRV2LOW4ME]

The popularity of gasoline in North America put the idea of gasoline hybrids, and therefore its technology, farther ahead of its diesel counterpart. Also, much of North America and even Europe, where most of these vehicles would be sold, creates an obstacle with its cold winters as diesels are notorious for not starting in cold weather due to their combustion design. On top of that, the low rpms in which a diesel operates in would need higher gearing, which would drain engine power, or use a longer period of time to fill the cells.

I can't see emissions being a factor in any of this really, its all just a matter of fuel economy and saving the owner some money at the pumps.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Yes, to an extent, you have to wait for the fuel heaters (coils) to warm the fuel to the correct level of viscosity.

Perhaps switching from running in full electric mode, to suddenly wanting the diesel engine to cut in, is the problem?

Most modern diesels do this as soon as you open the door.

(Which is why you shouldn't open your car's door if you've just put petrol in by accident)

 

[Dave A]

My 306 TDi takes around 5 seconds for the coils to warm up over winter, it's no problem, you put the key in and turn on the electric, put your seatbelt on, start the engine and your off.

 

[Freddie]

Figured it would be interesting have an article about test-driving diesel-hybrid prototypes in this thread;💡

The PSA-Group has probably been one of the more eager opponents of hybrid-drive solutions. Now they've shown their own hybrid, and can, by all means, hide themselves by that this solution is slightly more hybrid than a normal hybrid.

BilNorge has just been in France and driven a 307 and a C4 with PSA's new hybrid system.

In short does this system not work the same way as it does in the Prius and similar. Firstly it uses a diesel engine - logically considering what's popular in Europe right now, and what PSA does best; and secondly that they do not use a transmission-system with the split-drive featured in the Prius.


Completely normal
The PSA-cars can behave just like ordinary cars. Dieselengine powering the front wheels through a six-speed automated manual (which will soon be standard on all Platform-2 cars (among them 307 and C2), without any electric or electronic additions in the drivetrain.

Or, it can be driven like a true electric car up to 50km/h; quite far actually. And in this mode it gets its power from a battery-pack which is supplied by a generator connected to the engine. Or the batteries and electric motors can give an extra boost under hard acceleration, like when passing by slower vehicles for example, so that the 90bhp diesel gets help from the electric motor's 30bhp.

During a normal driving-cycle does this system result in a fuel-consumption that corresponds to 90g CO2/km - by normal standards this is nearly nothing. Here it means a fuel consumption of 0,34l/10km.


Prototypes
Right now these cars are only prototypes, alot needs improving - we experienced for example the engine getting busy when it went from one mode to another. But in the same time is this system so close to production that there was room for all the components in the existing cars with no other modification than sacrificing the spare-wheel. 60kg extra in the front and 60kg with batteries in the back are also notable, but are placed so low that they don't noteworthly affect the handling of the cars, it's only notable under boostless acceleration.

2010, they say, can the cars be ready for the market. And by then there will be some exciting fuel-cell solutions presented that'll be on the market four years later. It's nice to see that car-development is far from standing still.

Please bear with me, it was a difficult translation (lots of phrases and technical stuff), so I've hoped nothing got lost in translation. And if anyone wonders, the source (with pictures) is here. If you've got questions about the article, you know where to ask.

 

[YSSMAN]

Diesel in any form should be the next trend here in North America, but I don't think you are going to be able to convince many people that diesel is any better than their regular gasoline engines.

Take for example, my Mother, who I have been trying to coax into buying a VW Jetta or Golf TDI for about four years now. She refuses to buy one because of the cold start problems (we live in Michigan, winter usually stays around 25F or -4C), high fuel costs, and low-performance. Although I have pointed out dozens of times that none of the misconceptions are anywhere near true, she still refuses to buy one.

I've been thinking about buying a Jetta or Golf TDI, but when diesel was consistantly over $3.00, the fuel savings would have been negated by the price. Although now the price between regular gasoline and diesel fuel have evened out, I've considered buying a TDI once again, but after our "mini-fuel-crisis" in September 2005, the prices of diesel (and other fuel-saving models) have risen sharply in the used car market.

We will see what happens here in the US. The new emissions standards go into effect here in the US in 2007, which seem as though it will pretty much outlaw the sale of new diesel powered models all together. Its a shame really, as I would love to see diesel come back as a decent powerplant option.

 

[Jim Prower]

that's interesting...considering that Diesels and electricity have been used for years on two steel rails.

There's a small true hybrid (most diesel-electrics run power driectly off the engine) switcher called the Green Goat that's been put in production. a small diesel, I believe a Diahatsu or Komatsu, trickle-charges a group of large batteries. These batteries power the drive motors, up to 1000 hp.

 

[a6m5]

I can't see emissions being a factor in any of this really, its all just a matter of fuel economy and saving the owner some money at the pumps.

I have to disagree with you there. If you are actually manufacturing hybrid cars, it matters big time. Me, personally, it is just about the fuel economy. As long as it gets 50 mpg, I could care less about the low emission(it's low enough in regular cars!). But where I live, majority of the buyers of the hybrid cars like Priuses and Insights(don't know about Escapes) are the people from the "protecting cleaner air, anti-suv" far-left . Same reasons why some celebrities drive Priuses, when they could actually be driving around in Lamborghinis.

 

[SRV2LOW4ME]

I have to disagree with you there. If you are actually manufacturing hybrid cars, it matters big time. Me, personally, it is just about the fuel economy. As long as it gets 50 mpg, I could care less about the low emission(it's low enough in regular cars!). But where I live, majority of the buyers of the hybrid cars like Priuses and Insights(don't know about Escapes) are the people from the "protecting cleaner air, anti-suv" far-left . Same reasons why some celebrities drive Priuses, when they could actually be driving around in Lamborghinis.

I didn't mean people don't buy a Prius because of the low emissions, I meant the difference between a gasoline Prius and diesel Prius wouldn't be a big enough difference for people to care about. The low emissions don't come from what fuel they use, it comes from how much fuel they use in this case. I think for the little amount of time that the small engines are on for, the exhaust difference would be minimal, if at all.

I'll try to be clearer with my posts from now on, sorry about the mix up.

 

[a6m5]

I didn't mean people don't buy a Prius because of the low emissions, I meant the difference between a gasoline Prius and diesel Prius wouldn't be a big enough difference for people to care about. The low emissions don't come from what fuel they use, it comes from how much fuel they use in this case. I think for the little amount of time that the small engines are on for, the exhaust difference would be minimal, if at all.

I'll try to be clearer with my posts from now on, sorry about the mix up.

Ah, I see. No sweat!

 

[niky]

Yes, to an extent, you have to wait for the fuel heaters (coils) to warm the fuel to the correct level of viscosity.

Perhaps switching from running in full electric mode, to suddenly wanting the diesel engine to cut in, is the problem?

Actually, all my Isuzu diesel start up in less than one click. No more coils, no fuss on modern diesels. Of course, diesels make an awful lot of their pollution when they're cold, which is something that doesn't sit well with greenies.

Start-stop isn't a problem, but the emissions due to start-stop operation might be.

But what really hurts the diesel-hybrid formula is the quality of diesel available in the US. Hybrids see a lot of their sales in the US, where the additional price isn't as big a thing as in markets where cars cost more compared to a person's annual income. Thus, initial hybrids have been gasoline-electric. But with new anti-pollution tech, US diesels and diesel hybrids will probably be a reality before too long.

As it is, I'll be glad to see where diesel hybrids go. I'm also waiting to see how Honda prices its Fit Hybrid, as on such a small, mass-market car, we may see the true cost and benefits of the Hybrid system reflected in a realistic package.

 

[Jay]

Actually, all my Isuzu diesel start up in less than one click. No more coils, no fuss on modern diesels. Of course, diesels make an awful lot of their pollution when they're cold, which is something that doesn't sit well with greenies.

Start-stop isn't a problem, but the emissions due to start-stop operation might be.

I think what they are referring to is not waiting for glow plugs (for the cylinders) to warm like on old diesels but waiting for the coils to warm the diesel fuel up when its cold, because diesel fuel goes gooey in the cold. Something Australians never have to worry about.

 

[TheCracker]

I read an article on diesels last night that mentioned why up until now diesel hybrids hadn't been produced. California is the biggest market for hybrids at the moment, but up until now (2006) the diesel fuel that's been sold in Northern America is high in sulfur. Its the sulfur content that fails the modern strict emition regulations. So up until now there's been little point developing the cars if they can't pass the tests because of the fuel available. Apparantly low sulfur diesel will start being sold in the US from this year onwards.

 

[ExigeEvan]

I read an article on diesels last night that mentioned why up until now diesel hybrids hadn't been produced. California is the biggest market for hybrids at the moment, but up until now (2006) the diesel fuel that's been sold in Northern America is high in sulfur. Its the sulfur content that fails the modern strict emition regulations. So up until now there's been little point developing the cars if they can't pass the tests because of the fuel available. Apparantly low sulfur diesel will start being sold in the US from this year onwards.

So basically they haven't discovered 'City diesel' yet, they're still on truckers diesel

that's interesting...considering that Diesels and electricity have been used for years on two steel rails.

Locomotives use different diesel-electric hybrids.

It's either an electric train that uses a diesel generator to provide electricity, or an electric 'third rail' train that uses a diesel engine in 'dead' zones (e.g. train yards).

 

[niky]

I think what they are referring to is not waiting for glow plugs (for the cylinders) to warm like on old diesels but waiting for the coils to warm the diesel fuel up when its cold, because diesel fuel goes gooey in the cold. Something Australians never have to worry about.

Or Asians... good point. 👍

 

[Sniffs]

at least I don't have to remind people of deisel's rep in the US. IE dirty, smelly and disgusting...and that's just the guys who USE it

Exige: yup. in the US, deisel is for Lorries, tractors, and to heat with

 

[Tornado]

I can't see emissions being a factor in any of this really, its all just a matter of fuel economy and saving the owner some money at the pumps.

The problem is, though, that the main purpose of hybrids is not for higher economy, but for lower emissions (or, sometimes, more power). Diesel beats both of them right there in fuel economy before they even start. In addition, many hybrid owners note fuel economy is sometimes around half of the EPA numbers (30-35 city, for example, for a new Prius vs. 60 city rating), and when it's in the 30's you can get far cheaper cars that have better performance and higher MPG, and especially on the highway (for example, my Dad's Neon ACR got low 40's on highway driving when his muffler fell off a couple years ago). Hybrids are mostly there to capitalize on the stereotype that diesels (and, indeed, ICU engines as a whole) are polluting, smoke hogs that reak of unburned gasoline (I'm sure you've seen a Mercedes 190 that furthered the stereotype). Any gas savings that may (or may not) happen are just a bonus.

 

[ExigeEvan]

The problem is, though, that the main purpose of hybrids is not for higher economy, but for lower emissions (or, sometimes, more power). Diesel beats both of them right there in fuel economy before they even start. In addition, many hybrid owners note fuel economy is sometimes around half of the EPA numbers (30-35 city, for example, for a new Prius vs. 60 city rating), and when it's in the 30's you can get far cheaper cars that have better performance and higher MPG, and especially on the highway (for example, my Dad's Neon ACR got low 40's on highway driving when his muffler fell off a couple years ago). Hybrids are mostly there to capitalize on the stereotype that diesels (and, indeed, ICU engines as a whole) are polluting, smoke hogs that reak of unburned gasoline (I'm sure you've seen a Mercedes 190 that furthered the stereotype). Any gas savings that may (or may not) happen are just a bonus.

If someone needs a middle sized (By UK market) car for the stop-start traffic of the city a Prius is great. As the electric motor will do most the work giving great economy. That is where it has its advantage over diesel.

But as you pointed out, high speed driving makes the Prius no better, and probably worse due to weight of batteries and generator etc, than other similair sized cars.

 

[L8 Apex]

Here are my reasons for the lack of production diesel/electric hybrids:
1) Low sulfur fuel (needed for particulate traps and other aftertreatment gizmos) won't be available in this country 'til this summer.
2) Diesels and gas/electric hybrids are both more expensive than gas powered vehicles, so combining the technologies could nearly double the premium.
3) 99.999% of Americans (particularly those here in Lefty Loosey California) have drank the hybrid Kool Aid handed out in bucketfuls by the narrow-minded mainstream media, and organizations like the Union of Concerned "Scientists" still treat diesel engines in any form as public enemy #1 as far as the environment is concerned and that they always will be, and they would rather be burned at the stake than believe otherwise, even though modern diesel engines are probably thousands of times cleaner (as well as more powerful, more efficient, quieter, smoother-running...) than comparable older ones.
As my dad is fond of saying, "What a country!" 🤬