World To End: BMW Working on FWD Car

[Joey D]

BMW is going to be putting this in the same class as the Cooper since they are going to be on the same platform, the R-whatever number.

 

[Neal]

And neither does the MINI which, as everyone who knows and cares about BMW "only" making RWD cars, is also made by BMW. I don't get what the hullaballoo is all about. BMW have made a FWD car for years. It's just not been called a BMW before.

BMW made quite a big deal for years about their cars steering with the front and driving with the rear so were able to continue with this USP as the Mini doesn't have a BMW badge even though most people knew it was a BMW. I would guess that many non car literate people wouldn’t know Mini were made by BMW but then the same people would care about driving dynamics. Presumably they won’t continue with this marketing angle if they do make a BMW branded front drive car but I can’t see this being much of an issue for them.

Going by what I’ve read about the 1 series, which Stotty confirms, it’s a great car but has packaging issues due to the prop shaft. With my own money I would probably get a Golf for practicality reasons if I was buying in that sector so I think they’ll be doing the right thing losing the RWD for their small car.

 

[Azure Flare]

I'm very certain that they already did



Just wait, someone will come and tell me I'm wrong, but whatever that person says, its a BMW to me. And if you want me to I'll explain why I think that.

 

[Robin]

BMW is going to be putting this in the same class as the Cooper since they are going to be on the same platform, the R-whatever number.

Then its going to be competing with its own 1 series and the Mini (a BMW) which is ludicrous. Its like the Golf and Scirocco... makes no sense.

Robin.

 

[Joey D]

I'm very certain that they already did



Just wait, someone will come and tell me I'm wrong, but whatever that person says, its a BMW to me. And if you want me to I'll explain why I think that.

It's only sort of a BMW, and go on humour me, why?

The Cooper is built in Oxford, well Cowley but whatever, in the UK, it uses a French engine and doesn't mention BMW all that much, if at all, in any advertising. They even have different engineers working on the program so the guy that worked on the 3-series isn't working on the Cooper.

The MINI programme is just part of the BMW group, it's no more a BMW then a Ferrari is a Fiat.

Then its going to be competing with its own 1 series and the Mini (a BMW) which is ludicrous. Its like the Golf and Scirocco... makes no sense.

Robin.

No it isn't. It might compete with the MINI sort of, but it won't compete with the 1 series as the drivetrain is different and I'm assuming the price points will be vastly different too. I think several posts have covered why people would buy a BMW badged small car over a MINI badged small car.

The Golf and Scirocco make sense, the Golf is marketed towards families, the Scirocco is something I would drive. Different target markets.

 

[homeforsummer]

I didnt miss that class, its just that BMW has a car in that class so unless this replaces the 1 series its not the class they are going to be putting another car in to.

The A-Class is in the same class as the Fiesta, Clio, Corsa etc and not the one below it. There are also premium marques in this class such as the Mini. The 1 series is also in this class so BMW is covered here.

You aren't getting it.

The BMW 1-Series is in the same class as the A3, Megane, Focus, that sort of size.

The A-Class, as you said, is in the same class as the Fiesta, Clio, Corsa etc. Which is what I said before. When I mentioned the A-Class, and Joey mentioned the A1, we were talking about two cars already in the same class that BMW is aiming for.

The 1-Series is not in the same class as the A-Class. If it was, the 1-Series would be a Fiesta rival, which it blatantly isn't.

Thus, the segment is free for BMW to invade. Err... enter.

The only "BMW" in the Fiesta segment is the MINI.

Then its going to be competing with its own 1 series and the Mini (a BMW) which is ludicrous. Its like the Golf and Scirocco... makes no sense.

And if you'd looked through the thread fully you would have seen me talking to Joey about this, but presumably it needs saying again. If the money is going to the same place, who cares if the cars "compete" against each other? There are likely buyers out there who wouldn't be seen dead in a MINI but the idea of a small BMW might appeal quite a lot. Bing, in comes a small, FWD BMW. It expands BMW's share of the market as there are more than likely customers who want a small, BMW-badged car but either think the 1-Series is too big, or don't like the way it looks. Perhaps they just want more practicality. Whatever. The point is, it's another open space in the market for BMW to enter.

The only 1-Series sales it might steal are those of the base models. Somehow I think anything north of the 120d/120i will be absolutely fine, given that I suspect there won't be a model offering that sort of engine in the new BMW - it's likely to use MINI units.

But again, if the money is going from you... to you... does it really matter?

And the Golf/Scirocco is a good example, but you seem to have missed the point of those too. Indeed, it's not like it's a recent idea, since there have been Sciroccos going back to the 70s which have just been coupe Golfs. Golf too ugly or dull? Get a Scirocco. Scirocco too impractical? Get a Golf.

The concept of niche vehicles seems to have gone right over your head.

 

[Jim Prower]

Yes and no, I think...I feel this could cost more if the new car backfires, and people don't buy it, continuing with the MINI instead. You bought all that new tooling for nothing.

Even if you do perform "platform sharing," (nice way to say "rebadge,") which cuts development costs significantly, you need to bring the new car within the brand stylistically, which means new press dies, new wheel molds, possibly even an entirely new assembly line or bodystyle (US Hatch aversion may lead to a sedan version,) which must all be developed. If there's one thing the MINI doesn't look like, it's a BMW.

and developing a bespoke platform for the Bimmer alone? even more expensive.

Success of the A1 internationally will definitely determine whether this project gets past the concept stage.

 

[Stotty]

The 1-Series is not in the same class as the A-Class. If it was, the 1-Series would be a Fiesta rival, which it blatantly isn't.

Though on interior space, the 1er is more akin to a Fiesta than a Golf or Focus.


It's not so much the transmission tunnel that kills interior packaging for the 1er... it's the longtitudinal engine with gearbox on the end.

 

[niky]

Yup. To give the 1-series more legroom, they'd have to make it nearly as long as the 3-series... which would cannibalize sales... and make the 1-series much longer than its "rivals" (while making it about par in cabin space).

Again... it's absurd that the 1-series and the Mini have similar rear legroom when one is about 3.6 meters long and the other 4.2!

A front wheel drive BMW at just 4 meters long would definitely have more legroom than the 1. It just remains to be seen how much more.

 

[ranhammerR34]

I say this... Thank you!! Well about time guys. If they can offer a $19,000 to $25,000 ride with having some kit even in the 19,000 version, and be loaded at 25,000 (ok 28,000) you will have a few someones looking at them. (Note to all: I have seen Focuses, Cobalts, and others Sticker in the 20,000 range.) As for the Mini, yes we know BMW owns THE New Mini, but to me its THE New Mini, it will not have a BMW badge. --- Randy

 

[YSSMAN]

Audi A1 as well which is due out soon.

Same with the Mercury Topaz.

 

[Robin]

The BMW 1-Series is in the same class as the A3, Megane, Focus, that sort of size.

To me and others who stated so in this thread the 1 Series IS NOT in that class but the Fiesta, Mini, Corsa class below. That car is damn tiny especially on the inside. A Vauxhall Corsa D is 4 meters long and the BMW is only 20 cm longer (due to its long nose) and interior space is near identical. The Fiesta is also nearly the same size. You may feel its in the A3 class but I dissagree. Look how tiny it is..

And if you'd looked through the thread fully you would have seen me talking to Joey about this, but presumably it needs saying again. If the money is going to the same place, who cares if the cars "compete" against each other? There are likely buyers out there who wouldn't be seen dead in a MINI but the idea of a small BMW might appeal quite a lot. Bing, in comes a small, FWD BMW. It expands BMW's share of the market as there are more than likely customers who want a small, BMW-badged car but either think the 1-Series is too big, or don't like the way it looks. Perhaps they just want more practicality. Whatever. The point is, it's another open space in the market for BMW to enter.

Ofcourse it matters if you have cars from the same brand that compete with each other. Sure the money goes to the same place but if one is just slightly better in some way then it will canibalise the others sales making it a waste of time to produce. Also seeing as we dont see eye to eye on which class the 1 series is in I can't comment on the second part.

And the Golf/Scirocco is a good example, but you seem to have missed the point of those too. Indeed, it's not like it's a recent idea, since there have been Sciroccos going back to the 70s which have just been coupe Golfs. Golf too ugly or dull? Get a Scirocco. Scirocco too impractical? Get a Golf.

Thats a valid point but the result of having these two priced so closely is that as a premium buyer you would be mad to buy the Golf GTi anymore because you can get a much better looking Scirocco. This was the first thing nearly all motoring journalists highlighted when it was launched making it pointless to produce high end Golfs.

The concept of niche vehicles seems to have gone right over your head.

No its just that in this general small car class most people (not all) buy for practicality. Its more about the space and price than anything else. As a mass producing car company like BMW it makes no sense to build a smaller niche car especially as the 1 series performance was less than stellar and they already have Mini.

Robin.

 

[homeforsummer]

To me and others who stated so in this thread the 1 Series IS NOT in that class but the Fiesta, Mini, Corsa class below. That car is damn tiny especially on the inside. A Vauxhall Corsa D is 4 meters long and the BMW is only 20 cm longer (due to its long nose) and interior space is near identical. The Fiesta is also nearly the same size. You may feel its in the A3 class but I dissagree. Look how tiny it is..

Nobody has stated it's in the Fiesta class. Some have said the interior is that size, but they have not said it's in the same class. Ask anyone, trust me, you'll be in the minority. The 1-Series is not a Fiesta rival. If anything, the Fiesta et al have unusually large interiors for their class - go back ten years and trust me, the Fiesta class had smaller interiors.

Corsa - 3999mm
BMW - 4227mm
Astra - 4419mm

I make that closer to the Astra than the Corsa... and the new Astra is bigger than the one that was out when the 1-Series was released, at 4249mm long. Or about 2cm bigger than the 1-Series. 20cm longer than a Corsa is quite a difference, you know. I wonder if the 1-Series is closer in size to an Astra Seriously, find me one person who doesn't think the 1-Series is an Audi A3 rival... which is the Golf/Focus/whatever class.

An A-Class has an interior the size of an E-Class, it doesn't mean it's in the 5-Series class.

Also, LOL at the "look how small" picture. Look how tiny the Maybach is! It must be a Smart rival!

Ofcourse it matters if you have cars from the same brand that compete with each other. Sure the money goes to the same place but if one is just slightly better in some way then it will canibalise the others sales making it a waste of time to produce. Also seeing as we dont see eye to eye on which class the 1 series is in I can't comment on the second part.

The car maker really won't notice the cannibalization of sales. I very much doubt your average BMW buyer and MINI buyer are that similar. It's just a way of expanding the market.

No its just that in this general small car class most people (not all) buy for practicality. Its more about the space and price than anything else. As a mass producing car company like BMW it makes no sense to build a smaller niche car especially as the 1 series performance was less than stellar and they already have Mini.

I'm not sure how you class "less than stellar" performance but model for model, the BMW 1-Series are not only usually more economical than their competitors, but quicker too.

Of course it makes sense too. You comment that most people buy for practicality - well, I'd think that a FWD BMW with more interior and boot space would be pretty practical, don't you? And the MINI isn't very practical at all, it's a motorised trinket and it's bought on a retro image.

A small BMW would be a small BMW. Not a retro car, not a car with no rear seat space and a dinner-plate speedo, not a car with stripes on the bonnet, a small BMW. It's like saying the Panda is pointless because Fiat have the 500. It's not - they do different things, they have a different image. They just both happen to be small.

 

[Stotty]

Good post 👍

And a little cannibalisation between a sub 1er and the Mini doesn't matter that much as long as the costs are managed correctly (and platform sharing is a great way to drive down the cost structure for a manufacturer) - BMW's market share and profits delivered by this segment will increase significantly.... plus they'll also open up the brand to new group of consumers... who they will hope move on to 3's and 5's as they get older/richer.

Makes even better financial sense if a sub-compact platform could be used for the next 1er too - in the same way the 5, 5GT and 7 or the 3 and X1 share basic platforms.

 

[homeforsummer]

And a little cannibalisation between a sub 1er and the Mini doesn't matter that much as long as the costs are managed correctly (and platform sharing is a great way to drive down the cost structure for a manufacturer) - BMW's market share and profits delivered by this segment will increase significantly.... plus they'll also open up the brand to new group of consumers... who they will hope move on to 3's and 5's as they get older/richer.

Exactly. It's just an even lower price point for consumers to enter the BMW brand. MINI customers won't necessarily trade up to a BMW when they grow up and leave the MINI brand (indeed, that's probably what the Countryman is there to reduce the impact of - people growing out of the normal MINI, getting a family etc). With the sub-1-Series, you're introducing them to the brand at a point that they likely can move up to bigger models.

Or indeed, trade down. Downsizing is quite a trend in the automotive market at the moment. If the 1-Series or 3-Series are too big, the new car will give an option that's still within BMW's range, for people who might not like the MINI. Some people just need that blue propeller badge.

Makes even better financial sense if a sub-compact platform could be used for the next 1er too - in the same way the 5, 5GT and 7 or the 3 and X1 share basic platforms.

Yeah, I mean apart from anything they're surely likely to get at least a convertible (or a roadster, or a coupe a la the MINI concepts) off the platform, and by the looks of the link Joey posted there will be AWD models on the platform too (makes sense, if it's going to be shared with the MINI platform) so it could provide umpteen different variants.

Edit: Incidentally:

Even if you do perform "platform sharing," (nice way to say "rebadge,")

Not strictly true, though not completely false. An old Polo saloon and an old Seat Cordoba is "platform sharing", but it is essentially a rebadge... a new Golf, Octavia, Leon, A3 etc is platform sharing and definitely not just a "rebadge". Modern platform sharing is pretty clever. The next aluminium platform that Lotus Engineering has developed (the one underneath the Evora) can in theory be used by anything from the Evora to an SUV.

 

[niky]

More on that Skoda thing...

 

[Radracing]

I wonder if this is what they have in mind. Sort of a retro version of the BMW Isetta.

 

[Joey D]

They are already doing an Isetta city car along the lines of the Smart Car.

 

[homeforsummer]

Yup, the "Isetta" is another of BMW's projects in the making.

It's being co-developed with Fiat, as far as the message on the grapevine goes.

If it's being targeted at the Audi A1, this latest Beemer is presumably going to be aimed at the Polo/Fiesta etc class. The Isetta and the Fiat "Topolino" that's being developed will be right on the bottom rung, as a Smart competitor.

 

[Robin]

Also, LOL at the "look how small" picture. Look how tiny the Maybach is! It must be a Smart rival!

Actually I put a small picture there because I didnt want to waste space on a huge picture of a years old car in this thread so I got the thumbnail from wikipedia. Thats seriously sad to assume I put a small picture to make it look small, do you think I'm 10 or something!

I'm not sure how you class "less than stellar" performance but model for model, the BMW 1-Series are not only usually more economical than their competitors, but quicker too.

Less than stellar as in it got mainly terrible reviews highlighting that it was and still is basically pointless. Also have you seen many around? I've seen about 6 in all the years its been produced.

Of course it makes sense too. You comment that most people buy for practicality - well, I'd think that a FWD BMW with more interior and boot space would be pretty practical, don't you?

No because I can have a car which is just as practical for half the price and probably half the tax and insurance. In my opinion BMW is only practical in the 3 series and above catagory because its more competitively priced and the majority of customers at that level will be looking for something other than practicality. Plus that fact that BMW 'people' expect RWD.

And the MINI isn't very practical at all, it's a motorised trinket and it's bought on a retro image.

I was going to add that but I thought it was obvious. Mini is the exception (the other being Smart) because its really just a fashion statement so it works.

A small BMW would be a small BMW. Not a retro car, not a car with no rear seat space and a dinner-plate speedo, not a car with stripes on the bonnet, a small BMW.

So all its got going for it is the badge then... which is nuts in the market its trying to aim for because its got nothing special like Mini. Yes there are niche models here and there but this isnt some Cygnet, it will end up like the Audi A2... a total disaster.

We clearly dont see eye to eye on this.

Robin.

 

[homeforsummer]

Actually I put a small picture there because I didnt want to waste space on a huge picture of a years old car in this thread so I got the thumbnail from wikipedia. Thats seriously sad to assume I put a small picture to make it look small, do you think I'm 10 or something!

Apparently niche marketing and sarcasm are lost on you...

Less than stellar as in it got mainly terrible reviews highlighting that it was and still is basically pointless. Also have you seen many around? I've seen about 6 in all the years its been produced.

Pointless is far too strong a word. Possibly connected to how many you've seen. I don't know where you live, but I live in the North East and half of it is below the poverty line in the UK, and I still see 1-Series absolutely everywhere. I'm not sure whether you're claiming you haven't seen many for added effect to your point or you're just myopic but trust me, there are plenty about.

No because I can have a car which is just as practical for half the price and probably half the tax and insurance. In my opinion BMW is only practical in the 3 series and above catagory because its more competitively priced and the majority of customers at that level will be looking for something other than practicality.

Again, you really don't seem to understand the attraction a particular badge can have.

Saying you could have something for way less money and more practical is like saying you could get something more reliable than an Alfa Romeo or less quirky than a Citroen. It underestimates greatly that wonderful human characteristic of "desire" that makes us want to buy things based on factors other than just purely emotionless requirement.

You could buy a Golf, and I'm sure it would be wonderful, but for a little more money you could get a rear-drive BMW that handles excellently, performs very well on not a lot of fuel, and has a bit of flair to the design.

Luckily, we aren't all boring and don't all just want the obvious, sensible option. If I'd done that I'd have replaced my Fiesta with another Fiesta rather than an MX5.

Plus that fact that BMW 'people' expect RWD.

No, enthusiasts expect RWD. BMW "people" expect a kidney grille and a promotion to deputy manager. You're kidding yourself if you think that most BMW drivers wouldn't touch anything without RWD. All RWD has meant recently is thousands of people getting stuck in the snow.

I was going to add that but I thought it was obvious. Mini is the exception (the other being Smart) because its really just a fashion statement so it works.

So how is a car with the same standards of build and the same very impressive drivetrain, but with added practicality and badge kudos a bad idea?

So all its got going for it is the badge then... which is nuts in the market its trying to aim for because its got nothing special like Mini. Yes there are niche models here and there but this isnt some Cygnet, it will end up like the Audi A2... a total disaster.

It seems you've missed the point of the A2 also. It was released ten years ago to a market that was a) still slightly sceptical of Audi as a major player, b) not that arsed on an overtly economical car, and c) not prepared to pay a fortune for something the size of a Fiesta.

Times have changed. The Fiesta costs a fortune relative to how it did back then, economy is all the rage, Audis are cool and BMW have seen a gap in the market. It's ripe for the picking.

And of course it's a badge thing. I can't see how you're unable to realise how important the badge is. What if BMW had released the MINI as, I dunno, a Riley back in 2001? Do you think it'd have had anywhere near the success it has, given the worldwide recognition that the Mini has? It could have looked exactly how it does now but had an upright grille (Google "Riley Elf" - it's a Mini with a boot and a posh grille) and it could have handled wonderfully but the name is lost on most Brits, let alone the rest of the world. But no, they called it a MINI and made it look like a pastiche of the original, and it's been selling like Anglelina Jolie covered in crack cocaine ever since.

Badge is very, very important. A vast majority of BMW drivers probably wouldn't be seen dead in an Audi or Mercedes-Benz. Ditto Audi or Merc drivers for BMWs. And a quick look around this forum reveals quite a few BMW fans, many of whom probably can't even drive yet - so the idea of an affordable Bee-Em is probably quite appealing.

Or maybe, there's a young chap or chapess driving around in a new Fiesta right now. They can't hope to hop straight up to a 1-Series, but hang on... BMW are releasing a Fiesta-sized car? And it's going to undercut the 1-Series by quite a bit? Sign me up! I don't like those nasty MINIs, way too retro for me. A brand new Beemer would be just right for an up-and-coming young knave like myself. Maybe in a few years time I'll have the promotion and I can get a 1-Series!

...See where I'm going?

It's also a bit too large an assumption that it'll sell solely based on the badge. You know the score, BMW don't just release any old crap willy-nilly - expecially if it's based on a MINI platform, it'll likely be a very good car as well as a relatively cheap car with a BMW badge.

We clearly dont see eye to eye on this.

Apparently not, though I see you've decided to no longer talk about the class sizes, so I'm assuming you now concede on that point?

 

[Jondot]

Less than stellar as in it got mainly terrible reviews highlighting that it was and still is basically pointless. Also have you seen many around? I've seen about 6 in all the years its been produced.

I have seen hundreds of 1 Series driving around. Not close to the number of 3 Series, but still plenty.

I was going to add that but I thought it was obvious. Mini is the exception (the other being Smart) because its really just a fashion statement so it works.

Actually I wouldn't call the Smart a fashion statement in quite the same way that the Mini is. Smarts are actually extremely clever bits of engineering, from that tridion cell thing right down to the painting process. Even if they do drive like an angry child is operating the gearbox. As far as I can tell, the Mini hasn't been designed in a particularly remarkable way whatsoever - as an example, a 500 is 6 inches shorter and 2 inches narrower, and still manages to have 25 litres more boot space.

Anyway, I'll shut up now. Just wanted to jump in and give Smart some love

 

[Jim Prower]

Yup, the "Isetta" is another of BMW's projects in the making.

*snip*

It's being co-developed with Fiat, as far as the message on the grapevine goes.

If it's being targeted at the Audi A1, this latest Beemer is presumably going to be aimed at the Polo/Fiesta etc class. The Isetta and the Fiat "Topolino" that's being developed will be right on the bottom rung, as a Smart competitor.

Wait, we went all into how this isn't gonna be in the same "Retro" theme as the Mini...and it's based upon a three-wheeler from the '60s...

yeeeaaahhh...

 

[Joey D]

Wait, we went all into how this isn't gonna be in the same "Retro" theme as the Mini...and it's based upon a three-wheeler from the '60s...

yeeeaaahhh...

Different car, the one this thread is dealing with is the 0-series, something MINI sized. The Isetta will be a city car on par with the Smart Car (and probably RWD).

 

[homeforsummer]

Plus, "Isetta" is just the name the press are speculating. And the image above is very much an "artists impression". Essentially, all we know is that BMW are also working on a city car, on a platform likely to be shared with Fiat.

Anyway, I'll shut up now. Just wanted to jump in and give Smart some love

Fair play to you, I'm quite a fan of the Smart.

You're right though, the Smart is actually fairly cleverly designed. The MINI is not, and the lack of space is a symptom of BMW having gone for a design that's in proportion to the classic car, and concentrated on getting the environment for the driver right above all else. This doesn't leave much passenger space, and throw in their Z-arm rear suspension and you don't get any boot space either.

On that note, I amused myself by discovering that the Smart ForTwo has 340 litres of luggage space, which is 80 litres more than even the Clubman Hopefully the new BMW will at least match a Smart for boot space...

 

[///M-Spec]

Ambivalent.

BMW has been making exclusively non-RWD cars for more than a decade now. Plus, they're SUVs on top of that. So the notion of that this product detracts from the "purity" of the brand or devalues its image is a hard case to make. The brand has already ventured far beyond its roots a long time ago.

The company needs to sell more cars to survive and stay competitive. If the choice is between making a bunch of non traditional products or ending up a division of a larger company, I would lean towards the former.

However, if this car hits the road, I would wager the US and probably all of North America won't get it. In America, small is cheap. And cheap is antithetical to BMW's premium positioning here. The 1er is pushing it about as far as it will go.

Rumor is they're working on a V6 as well. This actually bothers me far more than a potential FWD car. Nothing sounds and feels like a BMW straight 6.

But if they do make the switch, they'll probably survive that as well. Porsche survived going water cooled, didn't they?


M

 

[homeforsummer]

But if they do make the switch, they'll probably survive that as well. Porsche survived going water cooled, didn't they?

Indeed, so did VW before them, albeit rather longer ago.

I do think people kick up an awfully big stink about things like this. The Porsche example is a good one. Any time Porsche introduce anything that isn't a 911, somebody, somewhere, bitches about it. The 914, 924, Boxter, Cayenne and Panamera have all come in from an absolute pounding, and people seem to conveniently forget that all the above save for the Panamera have been very financially significant for the company. And guess what? That means more money to make GT3s, Carrera GTs, 918s etc...

Same goes for BMW. The people moaning about the FWD ones will be too elitist to ever consider buying one anyway, but it's the volume models that end up paying for development of M-Division cars and racing programs that are more "true to the brand".

Given the choice, of course I'd have a RWD BMW - I rather like the 1-Series coupe myself - but I'm not too far up on my high horse to think that a FWD car that'll bring in even more cash for the brand is somehow not a "true BMW" or some other nonsense.

 

[Philly]

Rumor is they're working on a V6 as well. This actually bothers me far more than a potential FWD car. Nothing sounds and feels like a BMW straight 6.

I feel like that's a bit of a different issue than making a FWD car. BMW's I6 is probably one of the best engines out there. And as long as they continue to offer the I6, I see nothing really wrong with having a V6 in some cars. But if they replace the I6, then I'll have issues with it. So much of the car's amazingness is due to that engine.

But I agree that cash cow products and changes that are necessary to remain competitive (like Porsche going water-cooled) can't be complained about too much. If you want a true BMW, just don't buy one. But don't complain when that car is what allows you to buy a true BMW in the future.

 

[EA11R]

Ambivalent.

BMW has been making exclusively non-RWD cars for more than a decade now. Plus, they're SUVs on top of that.

Should we be offended by the fact that they are SUVs? We understand that a niche manufacturer must occasionally sell an SUV or two to pay the bills. We don't care about the SUVs; they aren't what makes the brand good. (Actually, aren't they kinda crap?) They could be bright pink and made of cork, it doesn't matter. SUVs aren't important.

Cars are different. Cars actually matter in terms of BMW's identity. And a front-wheel-drive car is commonly seen as a surrender to the economy.

As it happens, I like the idea a lot: A MINI that takes itself seriously. Yes please.

 

[niky]

BMW SUVs are actually pretty darn good.

Cough... for SUVs.