would it LITERALLY KILL the Polyphony developers to start us in any place other than last?
- Thread starter Pizzapants
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- Fürstentum Lippe
- GTP_Nuschel
It wasn't Sophy's only goal to find exploits within GTS to lap the fastest way possible. It was just a showcase of what it's capeable to do and it could a) probably be used for other things within the general Sony universe and also be restriced to be less abusive of track limits when driving in GT.
They have already had 25 years to develop good AI and race format. The current guy has been doing it since GT5. If he hasn't cracked it by now be ain't gonna suddenly crack it during updates.
They need new staff and a new ethos. Until then nothing will change after 2 updates or 20.
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Er, what? You said it's a developing game, as if that means the AI and race format will improve in updates. I'm saying they've had many, many years to develop it and it's never been any good. If the same guy hasn't managed it since GT5, they're not suddenly going to do it in post launch updates.
It won't seriously improve and change until they hire new capable staff, like they did to improve the audio.
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It’s likely a performance limitation. They prioritize graphics and physics, so a whole field of cars with smart AI gathered in a pack would probably make a PS4 struggle. It already does to a degree.
To compensate for the artificial unintelligence they spread the cars with massive gaps, making the game challenging by letting players chase rabbits instead.
To compensate for the artificial unintelligence they spread the cars with massive gaps, making the game challenging by letting players chase rabbits instead.
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Improved what? The race format and AI are fundamentally the same as they were with a late patch to GT5. They got marginally faster perhaps, but still very slow, unaware and generally idiotic.
The AI has been programmed by the same one man since then. How is it going to take any serious leap forwards without hiring new people and deciding on a new approach entirely?
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Iff you dont notice any difference, there is no point arguing with you.
I test the ai after every update, at the same track with the same car and settings. I already gave an example about the 30 minuten race at le mans.
I test the ai after every update, at the same track with the same car and settings. I already gave an example about the 30 minuten race at le mans.
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- the-1st-hawkeyez
My problem with the AI is I’ll stay behind them, make sure it’s clear to pass, go for the pass, I’m clearly much faster then them, as I’m passing them… BANG! They just turn right into my rear quarter because they desperately need to be on that driving line.
i feel like they devs have it in their mind how they think we should play the game. Like “oh you see, you shouldn’t have passed them there, you either needed to pass the turn before or the turn after because right there that car needs that line to setup for the next corner that’s at the end of that long straight!”
i feel like they devs have it in their mind how they think we should play the game. Like “oh you see, you shouldn’t have passed them there, you either needed to pass the turn before or the turn after because right there that car needs that line to setup for the next corner that’s at the end of that long straight!”
..and if you think the same one person is going to suddenly make wholesale improvements and changes to the format then I have a bridge to sell you.
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- Zero_to_oblivion
The "problem" there is that having to do qualifiers reduces accessibility. PD want GT to be accessible to people who want a quick and easy pick-up-and-race, just as much as they want it to appeal to players that want more of a sim experience.
If players have to run a 10 minute qualifier before each race... 10 minutes that has no payout aside from a higher starting position, those players that just wanted to quick race will avoid those races.
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Oh, but I can.
GTS credits:
Now you can correct me if I'm wrong, but that appears to be one person to my eyes. GT5&6 credited a second person but they seemingly sacked him off for GTS+7. Atsushi is on his own.
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AI is braindead and ineffective. That's definitely one problem. But another is that there is zero diversity of race type. Every single race is the same -- you start in last place by 35+ seconds, and try to chase down Polyphony's idiotic AI. Over and over and over and over. It's dumb. It's not racing.
i played a ton of GT Sport, and i see zero evidence that a single line of AI code was changed between the two titles. It's the same AI -- on rails, with physics-defying recovery ability, five times the mass of my car no matter what they're driving, that brakes suddenly in the middle of an apex, or turns directly into me for no reason. It's lazy and broken and it has not been updated since GT Sport.
Only a fool judges the game on what Polyphony promises it will be someday, rather than what it actually is in reality. Remember: PD promised this would be the "most complete" GT ever upon release. Why are you carrying water for these liars?
So it's OUR fault PD can't write a decent AI or create a balanced race? I honestly thought that's what we were paying them for. Silly me.
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Why do you even play the game?
You realy thought gt7 would be a complete game at launch?
That's a little naive.
We old gamers, (yes, i been playing games since long came out on the Atari), expect that it will take at least a year before it is getting somewhere.
I already saw lots of changes in the last few months,
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So ...
Scenario#1: the player is allowed to start from the front row of the grid. Good players steam off and stay in the lead all game. They never overtake any of the AI cars and complain that the game is boring. Ditto for cars which are much faster than the opposition.
Scenario #2: the player is allowed to start from the front row of the grid. Not so good players find themselves slipping back through the field with each mistake they make. They complain that the game is too hard.
Scenario #3: there is a qualifying lap before the main race. Good players qualify at the front of the grid - see scenario #1. Not so good players find themselves in the middle of the field and complain that they aren't much better off than with the rolling starts and that the qualifying laps are boring.
Scenario #4: PD code a more intelligent AI. This will take processor bandwidth and mean that there will need to be compromises elsewhere - reducing the quality of the visuals? Dumbing down the physics? What are we prepared to give up?
But here's another thought - when people complain about the rolling starts, are they really saying that the game is too hard?
Scenario#1: the player is allowed to start from the front row of the grid. Good players steam off and stay in the lead all game. They never overtake any of the AI cars and complain that the game is boring. Ditto for cars which are much faster than the opposition.
Scenario #2: the player is allowed to start from the front row of the grid. Not so good players find themselves slipping back through the field with each mistake they make. They complain that the game is too hard.
Scenario #3: there is a qualifying lap before the main race. Good players qualify at the front of the grid - see scenario #1. Not so good players find themselves in the middle of the field and complain that they aren't much better off than with the rolling starts and that the qualifying laps are boring.
Scenario #4: PD code a more intelligent AI. This will take processor bandwidth and mean that there will need to be compromises elsewhere - reducing the quality of the visuals? Dumbing down the physics? What are we prepared to give up?
But here's another thought - when people complain about the rolling starts, are they really saying that the game is too hard?
The rubber banding in the same is also pretty crazy. On the PP 700 race on Lemans i was able to stay in first place just by keeping my Aventador in 7th gear the whole entire time. They drive the same speed as you, whereas every other racing game (iRacing/PC2) has Ai that drives at the fastest possible speed like a racing game should be.
Good players could pick a lower car than the AI and still have a solid race battling with them.
Not so good players lower the difficulty.
See above.
We have no idea what is currently using that processing so can't really answer.
No, they're complaining that it's not proper racing like they see on TV and play in pretty much any other racing game.
I honestly wonder what his job is. Like what part of the AI is he even working on at this point? Push you into a wall whenever you try to overtake, or brake check you in the middle of a corner?Oh, but I can.
View attachment 1156660
GTS credits:
Now you can correct me if I'm wrong, but that appears to be one person to my eyes. GT5&6 credited a second person but they seemingly sacked him off for GTS+7. Atsushi is on his own.
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- voodoovaj
But this is a game direction issue, which likely won't ever change.
Believe me, I would love for them to overhaul the races, or have them dispose of the their current design philosophy for all upcoming races. Although, yes, adding content has been the norm since GT5, I think it was reasonable to expect that more time could have been spent on organizing the single player....five years...that's a good enough time to get things in order. For instance, a simple thing like having more than 1 race at Mount Panorama, while at the same time having Tokyo nearly full up.
It's easy to rant on all that's wrong, but shouldn't be, yet this is a major one because every single one of us can open the custom race editor and make a grid start race. We can all position ourselves to start where we like. If we can do it, the game designers could have done it to. They just didn't. It's like they threw it together in a weekend.
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So your solution is to force good players to handicap themselves with a weaker car in order to get a challenge? Then you want to force not so good players to lower the difficulty to get a game they can play? Good luck selling both of those.
We do have an idea about what is taking processor bandwith. Start with visuals, physics, music, sound effects, weather, AI. It's not rocket science.
No, it's not like "proper racing". It's a game. It forgives you for crashing into the barriers. The difficulty of the races is set to make it easy to start. The AI cars rubber band so they don't get too far ahead. Make it too realistic and it becomes too hard/ boring like the Mercedes F1 era when Lewis Hamilton usually qualified on pole and then won most races without having to overtake anyone.
The best solution is a significantly better AI that scales from beginner to expert, but that obviously isn't coming any time soon so what I said is the best compromise with grid starts.
If they let us have grid starts you can tailor your car to match the AI so you can at least have some semblence of a real race, battling for positions over several laps. It's something. You can never get that with the rolling start. Sure, you can pick a slower car but all that achieves is you catch the lead rabbit closer to the end, or maybe not at all, because you run out of time despite going 5+ seconds a lap faster.
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- London, Ontario
- voodoovaj
I'll take a crack at this too 
GTSport rewarded you with a bonus for handicapping yourself. It was one of the saving graces of the Single Player. Now, that's gone, because of microtransactions and the directive to drive down the ability for the player to earn money in entertaining ways.
Personally, the collisions don't bother me that much.
What PD have done though is include these "Chili Pepper" races that are showing people what the AI can do. People are seeing that the game COULD be interesting. However, PD has chosen to make it very boring.
The rubber banding need not exist at all if there was a better focus on the race set up. The game currently changes the lineup based on the car you are driving. These feature could be better utilized to make the racing more interesting.
The original allowed qualifying. As a player, you could take it or leave it. The game has always been about the player giving themselves their own challenge, so you can choose an ultra fast car if you are a lesser driver, and challenge yourself if you are a better one.
GTSport rewarded you with a bonus for handicapping yourself. It was one of the saving graces of the Single Player. Now, that's gone, because of microtransactions and the directive to drive down the ability for the player to earn money in entertaining ways.
Again, this is the same take it or leave it scenario. "Good Players" will probably skip qualifying. But this point actually dovetails into your next point more.
I have been saying for many, many, many, many years that the AI is not "dumb" as much as it is intentionally made to be boring. You literally cannot have the "start at the back/rolling start" set up and, at the same time, have the AI do it's best to win. The AI MUST do poorly or you will be FUBAR. Almost all of the other frustrations come from AI to player contact, which is likely caused by a diminished collision check for performance reasons.
Personally, the collisions don't bother me that much.
What PD have done though is include these "Chili Pepper" races that are showing people what the AI can do. People are seeing that the game COULD be interesting. However, PD has chosen to make it very boring.
No, the complaint is that it's boring. Most AI (all of the AI?) is not trying to win. They are simply their to be a pylon. How often have you seen a car, that you KNOW is fast, lapping at the back of the grid at an ultra low pace? It happens all the time. With all of the AI trying to win, the races becomes far less predictable, and it requires NO extra cycles and no compromise on our part.
You are literally describing the Gran Turismo franchise, and GTSport in particular.
Again, my statement above. There is nothing that the AI need to do better other than collision avoidance. So no change in the AI code needs to be made.
No one is saying that they game needs to be realistic to avoid being boring. There is a massive gulf between boredom from extreme ease and frustration from extreme difficulty.
The rubber banding need not exist at all if there was a better focus on the race set up. The game currently changes the lineup based on the car you are driving. These feature could be better utilized to make the racing more interesting.
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Oh, but I can.
View attachment 1156660
GTS credits:
Now you can correct me if I'm wrong, but that appears to be one person to my eyes. GT5&6 credited a second person but they seemingly sacked him off for GTS+7. Atsushi is on his oTh
There are currently 73 ppl working at the company. Most of them on gt7.Oh, but I can.
View attachment 1156660
GTS credits:
Now you can correct me if I'm wrong, but that appears to be one person to my eyes. GT5&6 credited a second person but they seemingly sacked him off for GTS+7. Atsushi is on his own.
And like in most companies. You dont see them in the credits.
Don't know where you got that number from, there are 200+ PD staff,
Nice try. Actually watch the credits. There are hundreds of people credited. There is absolutely no reason not to credit people working on the AI if they existed. They credited all 30 people working on scapes.
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Don't know where you got that number from, there are 200+ PD staff,
Nice try. Actually watch the credits. There are hundreds of people credited. There is absolutely no reason not to credit people working on the AI if they existed. They credited all 30 people working on scapes.
Those people do not all work at PD.
You see a lot of namens, but again, you have no clue
And how do i know?
Becose they dont make it a secret.
I know, and what you say is true.
And all i said is they are working on it. Its not an easy 1 click fix, and dont expect that everything is solved in the first year.
I see them communicating with the community much more then i ever see them do. And unlike some others, i do have fait that eventualy we have a great game.
And the more we drive, the faster it (she) learns
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1. Go slow yourself and take the speed hit.
2. Slow before corner entry, adjust your line, and exit the corner where they aren't. This is the best way. In the case of eau rouge, you can back off well before the corner so you're exiting after them but carrying way more speed down the straight.
3. Take a penalty and lose your clean race bonus.
I know it sucks sometimes, but you quickly learn where the AI sucks on track. Adjust accordingly. It's rare that I've ever hit AI, and I always go for the clean race.
Them hitting us on the other hand... now that's frustrating and sometimes impossible to avoid because they're also totally blind morons.
Share it with us then. Because Kaz himself said they had over 300 staff.
Interview de Kazunori Yamauchi, le papa de Gran Turismo nous parle du 7ème opus
En amont du récent State of Play consacré à Gran Turismo 7, nous avons pu, avec d'autres médias internationaux, poser quelques questions au créateur emblématique de la saga Kazunori « Kaz » Yamauchi.
www.jeuxvideo.fr
You've also still not given any logical answer for why someone working on the AI wouldn't be credited.
Nothing has been solved in 12 years.
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