would it LITERALLY KILL the Polyphony developers to start us in any place other than last?

[Voodoovaj]

What? How is that a solution to races allowing overpowered cars? People are saying that grid starts wouldn't work because people would choose overpowered cars and run away with an easy win. I'm saying that couldn't happen if PD put proper restrictions on the event.

An argument about winning a SP race "easily" with overpowered cars is not worth the discussion, because it's literally the back bone of the game. However, the opposite is also true. If you want to challenge yourself, you take a lesser powered car,

This discussion isn't about any of that though. It's about making this mundane experience less boring and monotonous.

Yes, they could voluntarily choose to do that but with tight restrictions you take away that ability entirely. Or the ability to do it accidentally.

Again, to what end? To reduce the fun even more?

Er, because that's the power the car comes with? Weird question. I don't want to drive a 300bhp Ferrari.

So you have no idea what the tuning feature is? You've never increased the power? Also, the AI is using less power. Again, we're discussing a pillar of the franchise. If you choose to not use this feature, that's on you.

Except it doesn't affect all races, it says as much. It's also nowhere near granular enough.

Because the chili pepper races are a set difficulty.

We've already established we're talking about doing it's best to a set ceiling, not the absolute best. If I set the AI to medium,

Whose medium would that be? Out of the roughly 2.5 million people that have bought this game, where would you say "medium" is? That's the single greatest challenge.

I expect it to run at medium 100% of the time. Not ease back to easy mid-race because I'm too far behind.

Again, this is that philosophical difference again. This will likely never change, because it hasn't changed in 25 years. It's at their core. Now, I think the "chili pepper" races have set themselves up to be a different experience, not just more difficult - We can dream, but I really doubt that this will ever change.

 

[Silver Arrows]

You know, because playing it reminded me of this thread and GT's failures when it comes to compelling difficulty and their utter lack of providing it that isn't a depressing one size fits all solution:

I started playing through Sniper Elite 5 today. Good game, if you're looking for a World of Assassination Hitman trilogy style of stealth experience then this is right up your alley. But what makes me happy is that Rebellion offers a massive amount of customization when it comes to difficulty. Whether it is enemy's line of sight, aggression levels when spotted, how much damage you take from enemies, removal of features which make it easier to spot and keep track of enemies, and whether you need to keep track of bullet drop, wind, and distance, and whether you get assists on that front. Rebellion could have probably offered a simple set of difficulties (and they do, if you just want the recommend stock experiences for difficulty) but it allows for people to finely tailor the in game experience for their own limits, and change them up at any time if the player believes it's too hard, or too easy.

Contrast that with GT, who for years not only offered absolutely nothing in the belief that a one size fits all solution of scrapping from the back and trying to chase the rabbit works, when it was clear from the jump that it was a poor solution for difficulty. Now that the criticism has reached a critical mass, they finally introduce difficulty settings...except they're worse then useless, as they don't really change anything about how the AI in the Menus drive or interact (and in fact, only really seem to determine how far the rabbit is so picking harder difficulties simply screws you over) and the World Circuits are more or less governed by their own logic...which is poorly explained and makes you wonder why they even bothered.

Again, a reminder that nearly every other racing game on the market offers a pretty clear choice when it comes to difficulty, that or they present a very clear difficulty curve that follows the player's progression as they play the game. That most other sim or sim like games offer difficulty sliders where people can fine tune difficulty to their liking. And what has GT done...?

 

[KilzoneStrife]

I haven't read the entire thread, apologies if it's been asked before, but has Kaz ever been asked specifically in interviews by GT Planet why PD choose to have these chase the rabbit races?

 

[Silver Arrows]

I haven't read the entire thread, apologies if it's been asked before, has Kaz been asked specifically in interviews by GT Planet why they choose to have these chase the rabbit races?

Nope. And knowing Kaz's preference towards easy, softball questions, I guarantee that's one area among many, many others which won't be touched in the interview space.

 

[Nebuc72]

Interesting thread from Nenkai about the AI:



Really interesting, because this shows that they individually go through each AI and give them different levels of boosts and abilities, they don't just dump them on track in formation and leave them be (which is honestly what I expected they do).

 

[Samus]

But in short, as suspected, they cheat really badly. We're clearly never going to get straight up fair racing against AI in this series until there are major personnel changes.

 

[GTalaune]

Interesting thread from Nenkai about the AI:



Really interesting, because this shows that they individually go through each AI and give them different levels of boosts and abilities, they don't just dump them on track in formation and leave them be (which is honestly what I expected they do).

That's so ****ed....Why not have the best drivers (the ones with the names of the real GT players) have the highest difficulty value, while having the back of the grid at a lower value. No boost and go from here.

I swear custom races are 1000x times more enjoyable than this rigged crap. But you can't expect to sell a game to just do custom races...

Just give us the control over the race parameters, if we could enable damage, corner cutting penalty, collision penalty, it would make the races harder simply because we'd have to be more carefull, I've been asking for that for years, and I think literraly no one would complain.

Fixed settings are fine for the missions, I don't mind the chase the rabbit, boost or whatever there because as the name implies, it's a mission, a special event.

 

[regnar]

So PD can program the AI to do all that, but can't seem to program the AI to look behind, theirs no attempt to defend there racing line, no one move block,
it's like driving to work where everybody on the road is just going where ever there going and your just driving a little faster.

Other racing games are completely scalable, not only in AI difficulty, but also in aggressiveness, they can be tailored to the players skill, if you want to clobber the AI you can or race against almost unbeatable AI you can.
In my experience this game gives no memorable experiences of battling AI when racing, since their not defending.

 

[Sunzi]

The rubber banding in the same is also pretty crazy. On the PP 700 race on Lemans i was able to stay in first place just by keeping my Aventador in 7th gear the whole entire time. They drive the same speed as you, whereas every other racing game (iRacing/PC2) has Ai that drives at the fastest possible speed like a racing game should be.

Yes, this is really weird. I noticed something similar on Spa - I can't remember the Event as such but I know that I was taking 'Campus' (from Turn 13 to 14) in 2nd gear because that was technically where my car made most power for the speeds that part of the track seemingly required - despite thinking I was powering in to/out of/through corners at peak the gap consistently remained between me and the car in front. The car would kinda choke out of the corner because it was obviously not in the optimal gear for getting on the power but in the context of the race it seemed to be more effective to just use 3rd.

Started taking the same turn in 3rd for the follwoing laps, and found the gap to the AI would close. The harder you drive the harder the AI resists it seems.

I was able to apply this logic to Spa Divine Moves (F1500-T Mission in the rain) and was able to close the gap to P1 and win, prior to that, no matter how hard I thought I was pushing (I was on the power through the turn) P1 would shoot off in the rain. This is extremely tricky, for me at least, taking it in what I thought was the correct, most powerful, gear... it seems driving worse is easier.

I think this would explain why many of my second place finishing times were quicker than my winning times and this could be true of a few events like:

• SLR at Nordscheliefe Sector 1 vs A45 AMGs
• NISMO GT500 at Fuji vs Mixed Class Gr.2/3s
• AUDI LMS at St. Croix vs Mixed Class Gr.3/4s.
• Honda NSX-R One Lap Magic Suzuka.

When I took certain corners in less than optimal gears I'd win the Mission/Race with a slower time than my 2nd place finishes. All of the above were slower victories than my second place finishes.

Example:

Thats nearly a full 2 seconds!

 

[Voodoovaj]

I honestly think that the AI programmer also does the single player design, and he thinks this is great!

 

[jonoholland29]

Yes, this is really weird. I noticed something similar on Spa - I can't remember the Event as such but I know that I was taking 'Campus' (from Turn 13 to 14) in 2nd gear because that was technically where my car made most power for the speeds that part of the track seemingly required - despite thinking I was powering in to/out of/through corners at peak the gap consistently remained between me and the car in front. The car would kinda choke out of the corner because it was obviously not in the optimal gear for getting on the power but in the context of the race it seemed to be more effective to just use 3rd.

Started taking the same turn in 3rd for the follwoing laps, and found the gap to the AI would close. The harder you drive the harder the AI resists it seems.

I wad able to apply this logic to Spa Divine Moves (F1500-T Mission in the rain) and was able to close the gap to P1 and win, prior to that, no matter how hard I thought I was pushing (I was on the power through the turn) P1 would shoot off in the rain.

I think this would explain why many of my second place finishing times were quicker than my winning times and this could be true of a few events like:

• SLR at Nordscheliefe Sector 1 vs A45 AMGs
• NISMO GT500 at Fuji vs Mixed Class Gr.2/3s
• AUDI LMS at St. Croix vs Mixed Class Gr.3/4s.
• Honda NSX-R One Lap Magic Suzuka.

When I took certain corners in less than optimal gears I'd win the Mission/Race with a slower time than my 2nd place finishes. All of the above were slower victories than my second place finishes.

Example:

View attachment 1157761

Thats nearly a full 2 seconds!

This is a great example

 

[BangsMcCoy]

There is discussion between myself and other people, we're conversing. You are just playing the man again.

I've given you the reasons I think the current system is poor, I've explained why it will never be a true racing challenge no matter how hard it is. Why it's just a time trial event with moving chicanes. I've suggested at the very least they could make the starting format an option for all races, what is your suggestion? Go play another game. Which is more constructive?

Exactly how constructive is your complaining? I don’t see anyone from PD here taking notes and making plans to revise the AI to custom tailor it to your ideas of perfection. They will make the changes they want when they want, regardless of how you feel about it.

My suggestion is to be a little more mature and logical I guess. Play the games you enjoy and ignore those that you’re obviously not a fan of. For example, I don’t care for Call of Duty games, but you won’t see me on their forums pointing out every little flaw of those games and sharing my opinions on how they “need” to improve because there is nothing constructive in doing that. It just isn’t productive nor does it yield change. We all know AI in this game isn’t perfect, it never is in ANY game. All games have their pros and cons, there is no perfect game. Where others succeed GT fails. Where GT succeeds others fail. If you enjoy it, play it. If you don’t, keep looking for your game. If GT7 AI is no challenge for you even on hardest setting then you’re either too good for this game or still haven’t fully realized how tuning works. There is also online multiplayer where you never have to see AI again. I’m betting there are plenty of players there who could give you all the challenge you can handle.

I guess I don’t understand why anyone would subject themselves to playing a game they clearly do not like, and then go waste even more of their time relentlessly complaining about it online when we live in a world with so many choices and options.

 

[Samus]

I don’t see anyone from PD here taking notes and making plans to revise the AI to custom tailor it to your ideas of perfection. They will make the changes they want when they want, regardless of how you feel about it.

1. You have no idea who is looking at these forums. The owners have said many times that PD, or people who forward information to PD, do read them from time to time. You have no idea what is read and what isn't.

2. With logic like that, why post anything? Shut the forum down. No need to praise the game, point out flaws, report bugs, nothing, none of if matters if PD aren't reading it, right?

It's a discussion forum. That's what we do. When sports fans discuss their team in similar places do they do it because they expect the manager to read them and use their formation next match? No. They're just like-minded people discussing and venting.

If GT7 AI is no challenge for you even on hardest setting then you’re either too good for this game or still haven’t fully realized how tuning works.

Or you haven't realised what this topic is actually about. It's not about difficulty. GT7 can be difficult, but only because of the handicaps and that the AI cheats. The topic is discussing the race format.

 

[NotThePrez]

I guess I don’t understand why anyone would subject themselves to playing a game they clearly do not like, and then go waste even more of their time relentlessly complaining about it online when we live in a world with so many choices and options.

It's worth noting that, alongside what @Samus has already said, the "relentless complaining" does indeed get results.

 

[JTB10000]

It's worth noting that, alongside what @Samus has already said, the "relentless complaining" does indeed get results.

Well, they've only addressed what caused the negative first page articles when you search GT7 and 2.0 user metacritic score, both potentially affecting sales. Everything else wrong with the game hasn't really gotten any attention.

 

[GTboyz]

Interesting thread from Nenkai about the AI:



Really interesting, because this shows that they individually go through each AI and give them different levels of boosts and abilities, they don't just dump them on track in formation and leave them be (which is honestly what I expected they do).

So that's why I was struggling (apart from my low skills) lol

 

[NotThePrez]

Well, they've only addressed what caused the negative first page articles when you search GT7 and 2.0 user metacritic score, both potentially affecting sales. Everything else wrong with the game hasn't really gotten any attention.

True, but that's also one of the reasons that these issues get discussed here, in hopes that PD does take notice and make changes in the right direction, as they did with the initial economy changes. It's another reason why the "relentless complaining," as @BangsMcCoy puts it, is really anything but, and why discussing these issues at length can fulfill a greater purpose.

 

[GTalaune]

Anyway when you see that it's only one guy in charge of the AI you know PD doesn't care. Same as physics, one guy, the same since GT1

 

[GTalaune]

True, but that's also one of the reasons that these issues get discussed here, in hopes that PD does take notice and make changes in the right direction, as they did with the initial economy changes. It's another reason why the "relentless complaining," as @BangsMcCoy puts it, is really anything but, and why discussing these issues at length can fulfill a greater purpose.

Easier solution, then actually hire someone to talk to the community and report to them on here, reddit and other social media....FFS this is 2022, every other game dev does that, at least the ones who take it seriously

 

[Ande3200]

I think the ai needs work but its at least better than previous titles, in some races the ai is faster like the clubman + races
Its not even close the worst ai i have raced in a racing game, forza horizon 5 ai is even worse, what really bothers me about them when you increase the difficulty their cars is so much faster thats not how it supose to be in my opinion, its going to be intresting when sophy ai arrives but we know nothing of when, it could be a year or longer who knows and hopefully we can set them to match our on pace, otherwise we all get destroyd

 

[jonoholland29]

I think the ai needs work but its at least better than previous titles, in some races the ai is faster like the clubman + races
Its not even close the worst ai i have raced in a racing game, forza horizon 5 ai is even worse, what really bothers me about them when you increase the difficulty their cars is so much faster thats not how it supose to be in my opinion, its going to be intresting when sophy ai arrives but we know nothing of when, it could be a year or longer who knows and hopefully we can set them to match our on pace, otherwise we all get destroyd

If it ever comes into the game at all

 

[Voodoovaj]

Exactly how constructive is your complaining?

It's actually quite constructive.

I don’t see anyone from PD here taking notes and making plans to revise the AI to custom tailor it to your ideas of perfection.

I have.

There have been a few items that I have ranted over that have, in some way, made their way into the game. It could be a coincidence, or it might be the results of the community rallying around an idea.

GT5 hacked - Players swap engines, unlock nitrous, and super soft tires. Then, GT6 has nitrous and RSS tires. Now, we still have nitrous and we have engine swapping (such as it is)

In particular, I have been saying that the single player and multiplayer aspects need to be mergered, so that the single player can, at minimum, be a cooperative experience. I have been ranting on this for, literally, years. In GT7, they added the meeting places (not at all what I meant, but still mutliplayer within the single player), we have GTWS driver names in SP to give the illusion of mutliplayer, and there is the promise that Sophy will bring aspects of MP to the SP in (likely) a co-op mode.

They will make the changes they want when they want, regardless of how you feel about it.

In some cases yes, but in many they absolutely listen to the community. They are also extremely light on game designers, or at least competent game designers, so they follow the desires of the community instead.

NEVER believe that they don't pay attention.

 

[kjeldsen]

I would love to see the endless threads of bitching if PD just implented 10% of the suggestions into the game.

Chase the rabbit sucks!
Yes, let's put the player ahead of the field and let him enjoy a time trial race with zero overtaking!

That's not what I meant, naturally I want him to battle!
OK, let's put the player in a field somewhere that's not last or first. Maybe 3rd and then let him fight his way to the top! But how exactly? Either you chase the rabbit and win because the rabbit isn't fast enough or you chase a rabbit you can't catch.

It's clear that the way PD is making this work is a mix of minimum speed requirements from the driver and a huge foot on the AI brake/accelerator as needed in order to keep the races interesting. And they obviously adapt the values depending on event.

That's not to say the current solution is perfect, far from it. I would prefer more events that were less forgiven and some that simply didn't have room for mistakes.

An example could be 10 lap races where the AI kept the lap times at a given pace and the only way to win was not making mistakes while being on the limit.

We already have the basic times and cars, just add 10 lap races to the circuit gold times experience and let's fight the ghost in a race..

 

[Samus]

That's not what I meant, naturally I want him to battle!
OK, let's put the player in a field somewhere that's not last or first. Maybe 3rd and then let him fight his way to the top! But how exactly? Either you chase the rabbit and win because the rabbit isn't fast enough or you chase a rabbit you can't catch.

So you're trying to claim that all racing in the history of racing is "chasing a rabbit"? No. The meaning of that term is pretty clear, it's chasing down another car THAT HAS BEEN GIVEN A HEAD START ADVANTAGE. That's the important part. It comes from dog racing which uses a fake rabbit to entice the dogs to chase it. It's not part of the race.



If everyone starts on the same grid at the same time and you battle each other equally, all trying to win, that's just motor racing. That's what we want. Not one car miles ahead at the start that exists solely to let you catch it. That's all the rabbit AI are, they're not trying to win the race. If they were, and matched your pace, it'd be impossible for you to win.

 

[Silver Arrows]

Chase the rabbit sucks!
Yes, let's put the player ahead of the field and let him enjoy a time trial race with zero overtaking!

Nobody has said this, in fact, most people have suggested that Polyphony eliminate chasing the rabbit entirely and making actual races with AI that feels like it's worth a damn.

You know, like most every other game in existence, and most GT games up to GT5.

 

[Voodoovaj]

It would LITERALLY take 1 junior game designer to set up a better single player.

They list 30 people under the scapes feature.


Need I say more?

 

[chengman]

Yes, this is really weird. I noticed something similar on Spa - I can't remember the Event as such but I know that I was taking 'Campus' (from Turn 13 to 14) in 2nd gear because that was technically where my car made most power for the speeds that part of the track seemingly required - despite thinking I was powering in to/out of/through corners at peak the gap consistently remained between me and the car in front. The car would kinda choke out of the corner because it was obviously not in the optimal gear for getting on the power but in the context of the race it seemed to be more effective to just use 3rd.

Started taking the same turn in 3rd for the follwoing laps, and found the gap to the AI would close. The harder you drive the harder the AI resists it seems.

I was able to apply this logic to Spa Divine Moves (F1500-T Mission in the rain) and was able to close the gap to P1 and win, prior to that, no matter how hard I thought I was pushing (I was on the power through the turn) P1 would shoot off in the rain. This is extremely tricky, for me at least, taking it in what I thought was the correct, most powerful, gear... it seems driving worse is easier.

I think this would explain why many of my second place finishing times were quicker than my winning times and this could be true of a few events like:

• SLR at Nordscheliefe Sector 1 vs A45 AMGs
• NISMO GT500 at Fuji vs Mixed Class Gr.2/3s
• AUDI LMS at St. Croix vs Mixed Class Gr.3/4s.
• Honda NSX-R One Lap Magic Suzuka.

When I took certain corners in less than optimal gears I'd win the Mission/Race with a slower time than my 2nd place finishes. All of the above were slower victories than my second place finishes.

Example:

View attachment 1157761

Thats nearly a full 2 seconds!

It's a system that makes absolutely no sense. No one has figured out PD's theory either.

 

[Imari]

Either you chase the rabbit and win because the rabbit isn't fast enough or you chase a rabbit you can't catch.

You don't quite get this motor racing thing, do you?

 

[Techlet]

I get what you’re saying, but I’m not gonna try to get the developers to put more effort into outdated AI technology either, it’s the past, not the future. It seems some people are stuck in the past, or their egos can’t handle not finishing first every time in online racing. Online racing is so much better than AI racing, that it wouldn’t bother me at all if no game ever had AI again.

Yeah, no.

Even in its current form the AI can at the very least respect track limits and even just stay on track in general compared to 99% of players I've seen online.

At least the AI will finish a race instead of dropping out after 2 laps. It wouldn't bother me at all if no game ever had online racing again.

 

[05XR8]

About that AI staying on track thing. The AI doesnt’t, all the time. The WTC 700 Le Mans, I get a penalty for going wide. Serve my penalty and continue on. The AI go Wide on their own and are left to trundle on.
Now, sure, PD programmed the AI to wait until it’s clear to renter the track. However, at La Sarthe, the AI will go wide and floor it back onto the circuit. Either causing an AI opponent to slam on the brakes as the car renters and/or slamming into my car and receiving no penalty whatsoever.

I get that 99.9% I’ll win. It’s that the parameters PD program, are silly parameters for AI reaction. Just a lil niggle.