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CounterSteer

CounterSteer

27
United States
United States
GTPlanetIsTrash
Settings! Let's talk!

* Finally did a tuning video on YouTube. You can find it on my YouTube channel. *

youtube.com

PRT CounterSteer

I make Gran Turismo content for fun and share some knowledge from time to time! I have bad Psoriatic Arthritis, so I tend to oversteer a lot with my shaky hands and 'CounterSteer' a lot , which makes for an interesting and wild driving style! I am far from the fastest drive, but I do try to be...
youtube.com youtube.com

Wow! So empty!

GTPlanet has become trash.
 
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CounterSteer
Settings! Let's talk!

Since a lot of people are all over the place about this and we are all learning it together. That, and not everyone's setting is good for another. Everyone drives differently, so no two people will have the same settings. It's just the nature of the beast, but there is something unique and beautiful about that in, in itself.

This will be a mild beginner guide that is simplified as much as possible. Hopefully we all can add and take away from it.

Side-note: I ignore the stats on the left, PP, Rotational G's, etc. These are flawed and not to be trusted. You have to go with your gut on these as you test drive your cars. There is no way around it outside of testing. Every car is unique.

Suspension! Where to start? Some people go top down, some don't touch certain items.

Where would I go?

Start with . . .

1) Natural Frequency. It's a little hard to explain with the math, but let's say this is the BASE of your suspension. This is what keeps the car from bottoming out and so on. It's the 'strength' of your springs.

Rough draft, I would say start out with 3.00 Front and same with Rear. Then test drive. See how it feels. After settings it to 3.00 Front/Rear, just leave it. We will come back to this.

2) Height. This is where you should go next. With Natural Frequency on 3.00, you are pretty safe to lower height ( otherwise you get the frame bottoming out on the tires effect which makes you go straight into a wall. )

Rough draft, I would say bottom Front and Rear out and go up 10 on each. Start there, if it feels like it's not turning, go higher. An easy way to see this is after you lowered it, go into cockpit view and turn your car left and right at a stand still, the steering wheel should move left and right at a good rate, but if it's barely moving, you need more height. Add 10 more to front and back.

If it does turn, next step is corner testing, hit a few corners while in cockpit view to make sure the wheel isn't stuck in a position when you brake and roll into a corner, if it does. Add 10 more height.

What you are looking for here is the steering wheel to move freely, when you have that you can adjust up or down 5 and find what works and what doesn't, all the way down to increments of 1 when you really nailed it.
Random rule I follow, I do jack the rear up 10-15 extra for down force reasons and acceleration out of corners to help throw rear on the back for traction.

Some like it, some don't. Try it out after you get your steering sorted.

3) Damping Ration: Compression/Expansion!
These settings help iron out the Natural Frequency more.

Now you have your good spring, Compression is how SLOW or FAST you want it to CRUNCH together ( slamming the brakes and the front collapsing forward, acceleration throwing weight on the rear, chicane corners side-to-side, etc )!

Expansion is the opposite, it's how SLOW or FAST the suspension 'widens/stretches' out and/or 'returns' to normal. You're turning left on a corner, the left side will expanding. When you come out of that corner, the right side expands to return to normal ride height.
Both these values are not bad stock, but play with them.

Do the usual 10, 5, 1 method. By this I mean, lower or heighten by ten, until you find something that you like, then adjust it up or down by 5 to iron it out even more, and if you want, increments of 1 when you feel you like. Incredments of 5 usually satisfy people.

This will start to HELP your car with RE-BOUND. Find settings that make transitions feel good. Accelerating/Decelerating and back to back turns. A full lap and ghosts may be required if you don't notice a difference.

4) Anti-Roll Bar! So, you've made it this far! Great!

Since you have your suspension pretty ironed out IN ORDER. It's a good time to get into Anti-Roll Bar. When you turn a corner and the weight transfers onto that one side to collapse the suspension, a bar is connected to the opposing side of the suspension and starts to lower it as well to help keep the car FLATTER around corners. This is why I suggest setting up Damping first, they help each other.

After driving your car several times now, you will know if it under-steers, if it over-steers and so on. Lower settings is weak transition for to level out car versus high settings ( 10 ) which does the most transitioning to try and level out the car.

Rules of thumb, going lower than the rear on the front will increase over-steer but too much and it'll give it a kind of up and down motion in the middle of turn and while it makes the turn, it doesn't feel all that good.

Going higher number on the front than the rear will create under-steer.

I usually start at five and keep going up, even front and back until I find something I like. Then I lower whichever one BY 1. If I need oversteer and I'm 8 Front / 8 Rear, I will go 7 Front / 8 Rear. Test and repeat. Usually 2 points seems to be a sweet spot like 8 Front / 10 Rear or so on.

If you need Under-steer, do the same but knock one or two off the rear. Each car is unique in this aspect, so it will take some tries. Just try it at 1 Front / 1 Rear. Then 5 Front / 5 Rear, then 10 Front / 10 Rear. Makes it simple and you will immediately know if you like soft, medium, or hard. After that just move it by increments of 1 etc.

5) Negative Camber Angle!

You should have a good idea how your car feels now. These settings can be all over the place. I will just simplify it for you. If you understeer, you want more on the front, if your rear kicks out ( not talking about you flooring it. I mean during braking or coasting and it just cuts loose on you ) then you need more on the rear.

This is best tested through corners to get to the maximum point of your steering where you're coming close to sliding.
Rules of thumb; do it in increments of 1.0, 2.0, 3.0. You will hit a point where the car is feeling worse, sliding more or the exit of corners feel more skittish then usual. After that, back them off 0.5 until you find what you like.

Example of a common setting is 2.0/2.5 Front and 0.5-1.5 Rear, but some can go all the way up to 3.0 if it needs it. I have not seen a need for past 3.0 on front or back ( or sometimes both!).

6) Toe Angle! You're almost there!

You have Toe-in and Toe-out. Every car takes these VERY differently, I've never seen such a vast range. So, to cut this short toe in on the front SHOULD makes the front of the front tires turn in toward each other so when you hit a corner, and weight gets thrown onto that tire, it will be turning MORE of an angle and pull you through. But, sometimes toe-out works better on some cars.

My suggestion. Start with the front, toe-in 1.0 followed by toe-out. One way is going to feel good, which one feels good is the one you will follow. Increase to 2.0. Test. Does it get better or worse? If better, try 3.0. If not, minus -5 to 1.5. Sometimes 1.0 is good enough.

Once front is set up, then try rear. Toe-out in the rear general makes the rear swing out to create over-steer, so expect it but it's not always a bad thing when you have a car that under steers. Toe-in on the rear is more stable but do like you did with the front, try 1.0 one way then the other way. One way will be distinctly better and you go from there.

7) Differential!

Initial Torque: How quick your LSD kicks in under acceleration/braking. Lower takes long, higher becomes instant.

Acceleration: This is a give/take relationship. Lowest is better for turning, higher is better for putting power down coming out of a corner. Try it increments of 10 and find your happy medium.

Braking: Lowest setting allows you to have some turn ability when you brake. Higher settings help brake straighter. Cars that fishtail when braking, raise this.

8) Spoiler

Front: Higher = Oversteer / Lower Understeet. Higher is not always better.

Rear: Keeps the rear in line going around corners. Some Front-Wheel-Drives don't need as much unless they are drifty.

------------------------------------

Finally! Now go back and adjust your height. Play with it using the 10-5-1 method to narrow it out. Most cars like some height in the rear above the front. Jacking the car up gives it better stability and will make it under steer. A heavy oversteering car gets easier to control the higher it is. 120-150mm height does wonders so play with it.

If car is too bumpy you can go back to natural frequency and lower it by increments of 20 until you find something you like.

Always experiment. Higher stats in front or rear to see how they affect the car.

Conclusion: Everyone drives differently and doing the tunes yourself, builds the car for your style of driving and can make that car a monster in your hands.

Anyway, Good luck and enjoy! Hope it helps!
Click to expand...
Helps to dial in the game physics. Thanks !!!
 
CounterSteer
You will never be as fast as them as you are driving the way they set the car up for themselves and you are being forced to drive like them.

Tuning is more for your driving style and getting the most out of it.

You will know the difference when you race someone who tuned their car versus someone who is using someone else's tune. Its quite obvious.

I have a lot of videos on YouTube that show the differences.

As far as motivation, no one can help you with that. I'm here to help people become faster for themselves and their styles.

Intermediate tuning guide coming soon which will get into down force, more LSD, Gearing, brake balance and handbrake percentage levels.

Expert Guide will come last which will get into the highest level of tuning everything.
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That'd be superb, a comprehensive end to end guide that allows layman/novices to tune from pretty much scratch.

I've tried, very loosely/briefly in past, but just seems massive headache and therefore use other tunes. Just look at all the variables numbers, trying to get head around how they interact after changes made etc. Your first post touches/goes into this, but would be good to have full picture.

I guess the thing is, how long would it take average person in general to go from zero knowledge to putting together personal/custom tunes at reasonable efficiency, thats better than the experts tunes on here... so is it worth someone spending hours and hours getting head around it, then testing etc, when they could use an experts tune that produces similar results to what person has had to spend loads of hours on. If elite maybe worth personalization, but is it for most players - unless you have real burning desire/enjoy tuning. I think I'd enjoy it actually, if I had a clue about tuning and could produce custom tunes relatively quickly once I had foundation and some idea of what I'm doing.

Cheers!
 
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CounterSteer
I know what you mean, and I get it. I am pressed for time as well. Tuning is trial and error, it looks intimidating because you have all these numbers and no idea what it all means. The first few initial tunes do take some time. But, as you continue to do it you get much faster at it. Understanding what the settings are doing and not so much the numbers means a lot.

Fastest way to do it is by "Extreme Settings." Say you start with the height, drop the whole car as low as it goes. Take it for a couple of turns. ( Starting Tune doesn't need to be a whole lap. You just need to know what the car is doing. ) After you see how it feels bottomed out, max the front height. Test. Bring the front down to the middle. Test. You will get a very fast idea of what the lowest and highest settings feel like as well as the middle for baseline. Then do the same for the rear. You will find out what the car likes really quick, if it likes low, medium, or high. After that, just try it in increments of ten. Again, you will find it to narrow down. By now, you're very close to the ride height you want. After that, I notch it 5 points in either direction with testing both ways. One way always feels better then the other.

That would be the fastest way to do suspension - "Extreme Settings." Try each one at minimum then maximum then middle. Don't worry about the numbers, think of it more as "sliders" for low, medium, and high. The numbers be too confusing and vary per car.

If I was to give an abridged tuning guide, it would go something like this . . . ( This is my '65 Shelby Mustang )

View attachment 1175064

---Ride Height--- ( Self Explanatory )
- Front: Lower Setting = OverSteer/Risk of Bottoming Out/Locking Brakes Up .
Higher Setting = Understeer/Can't Turn Fully/Better Braking.

- Rear: Lower Setting = Flatter going around corners but drifty.
Higher Setting = Better weight transfer to rear for traction, come out of corners straighter when accelerating.

---Anti-Roll Bar--- ( Side-To-Side Weight Transfer / Lower = Soft/Fast Transfer | Higher = Hard/Slow Transfer )
- Front: Lower Setting = Better Traction Going Through a Corner / Clunky Through S-Turns.
Higher Setting = More balanced Traction side-to-side Going Through a Corner / Creates a bit of Understeer Through S-Turns.

- Rear: Lower Setting = Rear Swings and Creates OverSteer / Drifty.
Higher Setting = Stiff rear / Generally Better for Traction / Understeers the front a bit.

---Damping Ratio (Compression)--- ( Speed of Crushing Motion of Suspension )
- Front: Lower Setting = Faster Steering Response / Risk Locking The Brakes When Tires Rub Fenders & Steering Lock.
Higher Setting = Slower Steering Response / More Even Braking & Predictable Steering.

- Rear: Lower Setting = Understeer's the Front a Bit / Better Traction Coming STRAIGHT out of a corner.
Higher Setting = Slight Oversteer to the Front / Overall more even & steady traction coming out of a corner.

---Damping Ratio ( Expansion )--- ( Speed of Suspension Straightening Back Up )
- Front: Lower Setting = Better Steering Response / Oversteer / S-Turns are Clunky.
Higher Setting = Balanced Steering Response / Understeer / S-turns are smoother.

- Rear: Lower Setting = Rear will swing easier / Oversteer / Drifty.
Higher Setting = Rear is more balanced / Can accelerate earlier out of a corner earlier and keep flat for traction.

---Natural Frequency--- ( Strength of Suspension Springs AT ALL TIMES )
- Front: Lower Setting = Faster Steering Response / Risk Locking The Brakes When Tires Rub Fenders & Steering Lock.
Higher Setting = Predictable Steering Response / Understeer / Overall better Balance of Traction Between Front Tires.

- Rear: Lower Setting = Rear will swing easier / Oversteer / Drifty / Better Traction from a Dig.
Higher Setting = Understeer-Oversteer more dependent on throttle control / Bumps Will Make you Drift.

---Negative Camber Angle---( Angles Top of Tire Into Car So When Going Around a Corner, Tire is Flat for Max Traction)
- Front: Lower Setting = Better Straightaway Performance / Better Braking / Understeer
Higher Setting = Can Wag in the Straightaway at high speed & Braking / Oversteer

- Rear: Lower Setting = Better Traction from a Dig / Able to put Power Down Sooners out of a corner.
Higher Setting = Can be Drifty During Braking / Can HOLD SPEED through corner / Can't get traction as fast out of corner.

---Toe Angle--- ( Turns In / Out the Front Side of the Tire )
- Front: In Setting = Understeer / More Straight Line Braking Into a Corner
Out Setting = Oversteer / Will Turn Better While Braking / Able to Countersteer better if you lose the rear.

- Rear: In Setting = Brakes in a Straighter Line / Coming out of Corner is straighter
Out Setting = Rear Swings Out By Itself / Weird Drifty Feeling / Oversteer / Good For Understeer Cars

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't know if that helps shorten it up.

Try "Extreme Settings". Lowest Value verses the Highest Value then the Middle Value. It's the best way to get an understanding of what it's doing to the car.
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot really appreciate it. I'll get stuck in although may not be until next week now.

Sorry can't give reply it deserves right now, covid taking its warm embrace :D
 
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Your explanation of the gear ratios is one of the most straight forward explanations I've come across. I gave it the Pepsi challenge on a my Mazda 787, which was hitting redline RPM on Sardegna main straight in 5th at the start/finish line ... I moved the 5th gear ratio 30 points to the left which seemed a little too much, so backed it 10 points to the right and presto! I immediately started shaving 2-3 seconds per lap! With one simple adjustment!



Excellent work!
 
In regards to performance adjustment for meeting PP requirements, you can use the ECU or the Power Restrictor to reduce HP ... I've noticed the ECU drops your max torque at a higher rate than if you use the power restrictor. Should the ECU only be used to reduce horsepower AFTER you have exhausted your power restrictor?

Also, if a car doesn't have a 50/50 front-rear weight balance, I've been adding ballast and positioning it as needed to get close to 50/50. Is this a good rule of thumb to start?

Hopefully I will be contributing tunes soon that can be used as a baseline for others. I've been using tunes from Praiano and Exeter (among others), which have been a massive improvement over stock. I plan on using these tips to tweek some of these already excellent tunes for certain tracks and come to a better understanding of the tuning system.
 
Soon Forget
In regards to performance adjustment for meeting PP requirements, you can use the ECU or the Power Restrictor to reduce HP ... I've noticed the ECU drops your max torque at a higher rate than if you use the power restrictor. Should the ECU only be used to reduce horsepower AFTER you have exhausted your power restrictor?
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Ive had this discussion multiple times to reaffirm that using the ECU first is the right move. However, ā€˜on-paperā€™, in nearly every instance, I have found reducing the Restrictor first is the smart play. Every once in a blue moon does it work the other way, if you believe the acceleration stats. It happened today with the Speed 6 IIRC.
 
Soon Forget
Your explanation of the gear ratios is one of the most straight forward explanations I've come across. I gave it the Pepsi challenge on a my Mazda 787, which was hitting redline RPM on Sardegna main straight in 5th at the start/finish line ... I moved the 5th gear ratio 30 points to the left which seemed a little too much, so backed it 10 points to the right and presto! I immediately started shaving 2-3 seconds per lap! With one simple adjustment!



Excellent work!
Click to expand...


Thanks. Its the best way I can find to explain it that will get you to where you want to be without being so confusing!
 
CounterSteer
As far as Power Restrictor cs ECU, the torque curves changes a lot more. This really depends more on your gearing then anything else.

Sometimes I like the torque curves to be closer to lower RPM cause I run longer gears and it makes them overall smoother verses a car that has higher RPM torque, you tend to hit flat spots at low RPM. Factor in driving style ( I like to punch it early ) thus with my gearing, I like lower rpm torque curves.

I would experiment with both and see what feels better to your pedal control. If you are peeling out of corners, adjust gears by how I said then play around with torque curves to really iron it out.

Ballast, no reason to be afraid of it, but I go for as close to 50/50 if I can. A 46/54 or 54/46 is fine on some cars. Try those first and check how it feels and laptimes, but usually a 50/50 gives a really a balanced feeling and makes tuning easier overall for the suspension.

Granted, adding ballast can need you to go back and re-tune everything but you will find you have a much more stable car that does it all.
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That is a more in-depth explanation than Iā€™ve received before and makes better sense. I figured as long as I was still running ATā€™s, that it really didnā€™t matter much. As you explain it, it sounds like it does factor, regardless of the trans.

What is your take on ballast in MRā€™s? Iā€™ve read an argument that says it can be very detrimental to shift balance in them and to avoid using any weight-shifting ballast (0 position is fine) when setting up MRā€™s.

Is tuning to the stats on the sheet generally a good idea or not? I focus on the acceleration and rotational Gā€™s when Iā€™m fine-tuning othersā€™ work. Yay or nay?
 
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A shame the original post was removed. I assume after the DDOS thread responses the other week...
 
Live25
Aha, look closer my friend. It is quoted in its full glory!
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aha, nice one! by myself as well :D. Shame I didn;t quote the updates to it, but that covers the bulk of it...

cheers!
 
B80
A shame the original post was removed. I assume after the DDOS thread responses the other week...
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Of course. There was no help. I got it sorted out with the FCC and a lawyer. It was a DOS attack on my router from a kid in New York from Gran Turismo 7.

Anyway, the guide exists and has been updated as of patch 1.21 to include bugs that cause some cars to understeer.

As far as GTPlanet goes. I expected more. Anyway, happy tuning!
 
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Next in the chapter!
 

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CounterSteer
Of course. There was no help. I got it sorted out with the FCC and a lawyer. It was a DOS attack on my router from a kid in New York from Gran Turismo 7.

Anyway, the guide exists and has been updated as of patch 1.21 to include bugs that cause some cars to understeer.

As far as GTPlanet goes. I expected more. Anyway, happy tuning!
Click to expand...
I'm just now getting a look at this thread. The quoted versions of this guide are informative but I'm missing pieces (like what the simple gearing explanation was). Is there someplace else where we can locate this updated for 1.21 guide? I may be an idiot but I didn't see it on your YouTube channel either :(
 
Failplay
I'm just now getting a look at this thread. The quoted versions of this guide are informative but I'm missing pieces (like what the simple gearing explanation was). Is there someplace else where we can locate this updated for 1.21 guide? I may be an idiot but I didn't see it on your YouTube channel either :(
Click to expand...
It's on PRT / FBR (Full Bore Racing) Facebook page.
 

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