WRS Tone and Climate (Potentially heated conversation, enter at own risk...)

[MisterWeary]

I am about to head to our Year 12's Formal so I'm gonna make this brief. One thing that makes me angry is comments that bring down the almost always positive tone and climate of the WRS. The positive and welcoming nature of this comp is it's greatest feature and comments like this make me mad. I don't mean to make an example of Sjaak, I have a a lot of respect for you man, I just don't like comments of that nature, and there's been plenty over the couple of years I've been around from heaps of people (probably including myself)

Like I said, I have to head off soon and so if you have something to say about a topic and you want to be frank and argue a bit, temporarily could you please do it in this thread. Once I get back I'll have a look through but I've got a couple of gripes I'm gonna get off my chest to start with:

1. Negative comments towards the WRS: If you truly like the comp and you see something you think needs changing then deal with it in a positive manner! Any other approach shows zero respect for this comp and it's members.
2. Negativity about a race: I work my ass off for this comp and I try to please as many as I can with the race, if you don't like something then find a nice way to say it or don't say it at all.
3. Lack of respect between old and new members: New members have just as much right to race here as the old, occasionally I've seen complete contempt shown towards the newer racers and I find that appalling.

Feel free to unleash in this thread, I feel like there's lots to air and people just sit on their hands sometimes, so if you have something to say, please do it here 👍

 

[KLR142]

And you know I love you.

 

[shockwaveracing]

And you know I love you.

pucker up a wee bit and kiss his ass a little more j/k

**START RANT**
as for the tone at hand in this forum, i have also noticed an undercurrent of sulking from some of the newer members coz the racing, was too slow or boring. (not going to mention any names though)

well tough is all i can say. suck it up and race the damn race!!! i personally didn't find WRS #84 very enjoyable at all, and the crack in the top of my tv set can attest to my lost patience at it, but i gave it a crack coz i like the competitive racing that occurs in the WRS.

organisation of something of this scale isn't easy and Colby isn't going to be able to satisfy everybody's tastes week in, week out. so if he posts a race that you don't particularly agree with, mention it to him in a PM or on MSN. OR at least have the respect to say in a post, in a nice way, that you don't like the race.

lets try and keep a nice positive mood in the WRS threads from now on


**END RANT**

 

[steven]

one post from me in this thread and then no more.

wrs is for racers to have fun beyond the walls of their ps2/gt4 chamber.
what happens inside that chamber can stay there.
what happens outside that chamber should be conducted with respect for others.

if you don't like wrs then go to another olr event inside or outside gtp.
if you don't like a wrs week then don't race that week.
if you don't like someone in the wrs community ... tough luck. either keep it to yourself or contact him thru pm or msn or email.

if i have ever offended anyone in the past then i say now i am truly sorry and i hope it will never happen again.

(as english is not my mother tongue i might occasionnaly misexpress myself)

i hope colby can close this thread very soon cos then all attention can be focused on racing as it should be.

 

[Metar]

Well, if it's a rant-thread, then it should contain my rant. And cheers for the idea

[RANTMODE (And excuse me if I stray off the subject - I'm not known for keeping one]
The WRS is a large-scale series. I always saw it as such, and never expected to be very competitive or fast. And I wasn't very wrong, when I landed 9th-last in D3.
Seems like I entered the competition at the most heated time there was. On my first week, Pink The Floyd cheated, posted the best T1, and rants spread all over. Week 74 had the aids-debate, including the subject of Old-Vs.-New. Some of the weeks were hated, some weren't. I, for one, liked most of them - there's no Apple-polishing, I just liked them. When I didn't, I just posted that I won't run, and that's it. Others (And I'm not naming names), ranted about why this week just sucks, why the idea is wrong, why this sort of combo is inexcuseable, etc.
Some of my friends (and me) started to suspect that those rants and fights drove Cyril into quitting.

The WRS will always have rivalries, which should take place on the track. Some are humerous (Neil Vs. Darren, Colby Vs. Brad - Best 'Tars ever!), and some more serious (Dan Vs. Curtis), and little comments were exchanged, it never escalated into a serious fight between those. And this is the way WRS should be, in my opinion: You can smash, pull, beat, bite, scratch - as long as it's on the track.

Metar.
[/RANTMODE]

 

[Jake]

I am more and more apprehensive to post due to the way some people snap at my and others opinion. I have raced about 20 races here so far, and I really have enjoyed it. When I am traveling for work, I look forward to the day I get back into the cockpit to try out the weeks race.

Sure there are times I am not happy with the selection. I usually don't say anything, but there are times when I feel like I need to post. Sometimes I get weird responses as if the person never actually read the entire post. They read the first sentence or find a word they don't like, then bam... some nasty quick reply is posted.

Also, I feel like my requests and opinions are not taking seriously. Maybe because I am a loner? Is it becuase don't use the back channels? Is it about where I live? I want to feel like I am respected as I respect others. I felt a little alienated by some racers. I Don't really know what to do about it.

 

[Metar]

Also, I feel like my requests and opinions are not taking seriously. Maybe because I am a loner? Is it becuase don't use the back channels? Is it about where I live? I want to feel like I am respected as I respect others. I felt a little alienated by some racers. I Don't really know what to do about it.

Backchannel, in many cases, is used not only to exchange race-related information, but also to chat about unrelated things - which sometimes also appear in the forums, then. I know (from life-expirience) how annoying it is when people refer to private jokes and things that others don't know - and I know I do it myself sometimes. I'm sorry if I was not-nice to anyone.
About the opinions: It all depends. Some people prefer the rules or combos that a moderator A thinks are better, and some not.
I'm sure, however, that nobody disrespects you because of your location. If anyone should be discriminated because of where he lives, it's me

 

[Sphinx]

I don't mean to make an example of Sjaak, I have a a lot of respect for you man, :

Yes you did, and no you don’t.

If you didn’t mean to make an example of Sjaak you wouldn’t have done so in the first place. As for you respecting him, you obviously don’t because again you wouldn’t have used him as an example. You could’ve easily done so without making an example of anyone, unless of course you think that many here are too thick to know what this topic is all about and therefore felt an example was required to clear up any confusion for the poor souls.

It looks to me you were fully intent in making an example of Sjaak in order to put the guy down a peg or two in front of everyone. A good positive attitude you have there. Pukka.

 

[Hugo Boss]

Also, I feel like my requests and opinions are not taking seriously. Maybe because I am a loner? Is it becuase don't use the back channels? Is it about where I live? I want to feel like I am respected as I respect others. I felt a little alienated by some racers. I Don't really know what to do about it.

The current atmosphere in WRS is just somewhat strange. There's people that are willing to communicate with all racers and people that only communicate with people they know. I don't feel like I'm completely part of it either, but that's maybe because I still want to see the WRS as it was 2 years ago. On one hand I'm glad that people don't see me as a GT god anymore, on the other hand it's sometimes annoying that people don't listen to your answers on their questions. I'm willing to share my knowledge and experience, but some people always seem to know it better themselves. So I can somehow imagine how you feel. If I were you I'd approach the people you think you can get along with and forget about the others. You can't be friends with everyone.

Coming back to the main subject, I personally think you're romanticizing the WRS a bit too much, Colby. Although new racers are welcome to race, it's quite difficult to become a respected member. You need to race and post a lot, before people really start to read what you're saying. Just look at what Jake73 posted above.
About the negativity, I hardly see people offend others. Mostly people feel offended, because they think it's an attack. Sometimes it seems they just want to feel offended. In reality somebody just want to let others think about a certain subject. Let's take Sjaak's example. I truly don't see him doing anything wrong. He posted his unhappiness about people caring only about their own result. I can see arguments for why he thinks that. Just read all the results topics and count the posts where people only talk about their own result. No reason to blame Sjaak for showing his emotions here.

A negative comment about a combo is mostly just an expression of emotions. As long as people don't keep repeating it, it's no big deal. We all know how much work you put in this and we truly appreciate that. Don't care too much about the negative comments, it's part of it. You need to look over it, and otherwise other racers will say something about the comments if someone goes too far.

A debate or an argument here and there is unavoidable. I real life and also here on the forum. Most of the times it clears things up and readers and debaters get to know each other better. Posts from Sjaak, Ron, Jerry or myself might seem offending sometimes, I can say for all that we seriously thought about things before we post them. We love this community too much to destroy it.

 

[Jake]

Backchannel, in many cases, is used not only to exchange race-related information, but also to chat about unrelated things - which sometimes also appear in the forums, then. I know (from life-expirience) how annoying it is when people refer to private jokes and things that others don't know - and I know I do it myself sometimes. I'm sorry if I was not-nice to anyone.
About the opinions: It all depends. Some people prefer the rules or combos that a moderator A thinks are better, and some not.
I'm sure, however, that nobody disrespects you because of your location. If anyone should be discriminated because of where he lives, it's me

This is my point here. I am 33 years old, my life experience is double than yours. I think you feel like I need this kind of answer but it's not it. I am not asking your opinion about my opinion. I can see how things can be misinterpreted. No offense to you though, but your not telling me anything I don't already know. I guess age differences make a huge divide on how one is interpreted...

I don't know how to sugar-coat this response though. I don't want this to sound like an attack on you. 👍

Just also wanted to mention that Hugo is spot on... I know I don't need to be friends with everyone. That's a given. Everyone should be civil with one another though. That's all I ask. Just becuase you may not be a friend of someone doesn't mean they are the enemy...

 

[NielsG]

I too am having a hard time understanding, why Sjaak shall be the example of a negative tone i the WRS.

I have known him since the GT3 days, where he offered me his assistance and advice. From that time I have often seen him offer his help to other.
I have also seen him voice his opinion in matters, that were important to him. Sometimes about people cheating. Other times about racers neglecting to check their own replays and this time advocating for a little less egocentricity.

I'm old enough to know that high morals, doesn't make you win any popularity contest, but I fail to understand, how it ever could be a thread to the WRS. On the contrary I believe people with high ideals are a gift to their community. 👍

 

[MisterWeary]

Well this idea of Tone and Climate is one I've been considering for a long time and every now and again a post comes along that makes me want to make a thread like this, Sjaak's triggered me to do something about it. You can think what you want about my motivation but I've never had anything against Sjaak, I've chatted to him multiple times backchannel and I think he's an asset to the comp but that specific post cuts to the core of this niggling concern in the back of my mind.

You speak about the WRS as something separate to yourself or something you're not happy with? Yet rather than address it you've used a sweeping generalisation that puts everybody down and are content to leave it at that. And then how about you Jerry...you post an angry, bitter, vague allusion to really deep problems with the current comp but rather than try to address it and look for resolution you just bottle it up? Why don't you address your anger rather than let it fester, is that really how you want to interact with the comp?

Every now and again things seem to blow up so quickly and people feel fearful of posting something because of it, I've spoken to many folk about this exact issue and jake already mentioned it in his first post so looking over it is a band-aid solution...we'll just ignore it and be content to feel uncomfortable every now and again, well I disagree.

• Hugo you mentioned you wished the WRS was like it was 2 years ago well why can't it be? Let us know what elements need changing and let's change it?
• Jerry, I've spoken to you many times about this kind of thing yet you've never given me any methods to resolve differences or improve the WRS. If you do care then how about we bury the hatchet and discuss how the WRS can better serve old and new members.
• Sjaak, I'm sorry if it appears I'm picking on you, your post isn't the only reason I've started this thread. You're a good bloke and whether you choose to believe my motivations are to see the WRS improve or not is up to you.
• jake, I notice many regular submitters don't talk much in the threads and I fear it has to do with the snapping you mention. I guess that's the kind of thing I'm hoping open and frank discussion will help resolve.

I probably come across as melodramatic but I don't want to sit on my hands and just let the minor things continue to wear me down, I see my time as admin being a long and disheartening grind if I were to do that.

 

[Sjaak]

Yes,I have spoken my concern about something I see for as long as I race.
Something that is not new but from old times also.
The lack of giving regards to your fellow racers in the resultsthreads.
I was a bit suprised you asked for a solid evidence.
In my opinion there was no need to name names since it is already in the threads.
However I could have written that lots of racers do give regards but that's also obvious.
Would it be better for the wrs if I stated a few or minor didn't?
Now you overlooked the post and concentrate only on the words "lots".
You even said my concerns weren't based on anything.
To be frank I expected a back up from the wrs mode but it didn't worked out that way.

 

[arora]

Hi Misterweary and all the WRS gang, you may or may not know me as i've not been around too long, I have a few things to say.

@ Colby, being the wrs race steward is not an easy task and I'm sure most people realize this and appreciate your efforts.

It is unrealistic to think that all wrs members will get along like one big happy family however there are some things everyone should consider when posting around here. If someone has a question it would be polite to answer it if you can. If someone helps you with something aknowledge them, they put forth an effort for your behalf. Remember no one likes to feel ingnored.

As for Sjaak's post, I have an idea on how to adress the results thread: If you check someones replay it seems logical to me to add some meaningful comment such as: lines, brake points, corner entry speeds, exit speeds etc, the racer took. If the driver ran parts of the track better than yourself say so, If you have any constructive critisism state that as well. That way perhaps we all could learn something.

I know from my own personell experience that Sjaak is a man of integrity who has much to offer to the gt community. When I was a complete idiotic noob (might still be) he showed me nothing less than total respect and understaning. Cheers Sjaak.

Well that's my 2 cents worth.

ps a seperate thread for people to vent is a good idea imo.

 

[MisterWeary]

I really am sorry if you think I'm picking on you Sjaak, I have nothing against you. Like everyone has said in this thread you are an upright, helpful and valuable member of the WRS, your post just happened to be the trigger for me to start this thread.

But if you honestly think we're not supportive enough of each other then bring it up here and start the discussion. I for one disagree, I've looked through the results threads and like I mentioned before, I see primarily celebration and friendliness so you'll have to elaborate on your point. If a few individuals choose to only celebrate their own performance then what's wrong with that? Like Jerome said, if you have a really exceptional week then go nuts in the results thread! Seems like a great place to release your happiness.

I'm being called out for picking on minor issues when it appears your comment is doing the same thing. Like arora said, this thread may be useful for airing those minor annoyances with the long term goal being the betterment of the WRS comp, that is my motivation 👍

 

[Sphinx]

So you want me to open up?

 

[MisterWeary]

Absolutely...unleash...

 

[CRXnut]

A negative comment about a combo is mostly just an expression of emotions. As long as people don't keep repeating it, it's no big deal. We all know how much work you put in this and we truly appreciate that. Don't care too much about the negative comments, it's part of it. You need to look over it, and otherwise other racers will say something about the comments if someone goes too far.

I strongly agree with Hugo.

As far as the rest goes - I have not been part of WRS long enough but I think it's a great community (compared to just about any other place where people compete against each other)

 

[NielsG]

I apologize for being for being so thickheaded, but I'm honestly still confused, Colby.

On one hand you seem to agree with me that Sjaak is a good guy for the WRS. On the other hand he is still the example in the very first post of the thread and very much on display.

I don't know much about communication, but to me it seems to send some mixed signals, when you in the very top of the text say one thing and a couple of places deeply buried in the thread something completely different.

I know it's very annoying dealing with stupid questions like this, but I would be pleased if you helped me sort things out.

Every now and again things seem to blow up so quickly and people feel fearful of posting something because of it, I've spoken to many folk about this exact issue and jake already mentioned it in his first post...

Yeah. I recognize that scenario. I usually just shut up myself, just because it's easier and rarely not worth the trouble.

If Sjaak had followed my example, we wouldn't have had this debate in the first place and everybody would be very very happy.

I certainly don't hope Sjaak will learn the lesson. 👍

 

[KLR142]

If Sjaak had followed my example, we wouldn't have had this debate in the first place and everybody would be very very happy.

Actually, we wouldn't, which is the REAL reason this thread is here. Because we'd just keep it to ourselves and grumble and grumble inside, instead of being out in the open an voicing our annoyances(in this thread).

 

[MisterWeary]

We're approaching this from different angles Niels, your first instinct is to protect the individual over the WRS, my first instinct is to protect the WRS over the individual. My purpose is not to attack any individual per se but posts that don't fit with the WRS's tone and climate.

I wanted this thread to be a way to focus on the betterment of the WRS by exposing the undercurrent of discontent, that's my motivation.

My style is to confront everything and I'm going to continue doing it...it's who I am. But know that the WRS is what's important to me. I'm not content to let things fester, I'm not content to look over cutting remarks and I'm gonna continue to address these things head on. Every time there's a post that doesn't fit with the positive tone of the WRS i'm going to confront it. Maybe it's because I'm a teacher, maybe it's because I'm anally retentive, maybe I'm over-reacting but that's me, I just want to race in an environment that is 100% friendly, I don't think it's too much to ask and I'm gonna keep trying to forge that atmosphere.

If my leadership doesn't suit the WRS then perhaps I shouldn't be the leader and I mean that in all seriousness, I'll step down if I'm not working out. No grudges, no bad blood, no arguments. But while I'm here, you can expect frank and honest exposition of any issue I perceive needs it 👍

 

[Sphinx]

Absolutely...unleash...

Nah, I don't think anyone would like to hear what I have to say because they amount to personal views of certain members here, including yourself, and any gripe I may have regarding any WRS issues has been attempted to be addressed before without success, so what's the point of dragging it all up again when they were mostly ignored the first time around.

I will however attempt to give you an insight into the issue that Sjaak mentioned because this is one such issue that has also been addressed before, or at least an attempt was made to address it.

All one needs to do is to go back to the first GT4 results thread to get a taster of what Sjaak is on about.

There is nothing wrong with highlighting ones own result within a results thread, that's not the issue here, but what the WRS members used to expect from each other member was some form of congrats to podium finishers within that post. How hard is it for anyone to write an extra few words to congratulate those who achieved a good result? Of course no one is forcing anyone do this, in fact there shouldn't be any need to even mention it because it is so disrespectful not to and it should go without saying in the first place.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=61442

Read the linked thread above from the start to post #16 and see the difference between the newer member's posts compared to the old member's postings. Then read on past post #16 and see the difference a bit of respect does, with the odd exception from the ignorant few of course.

All that Sjaak was highlighting a few days ago was that nothing seems to have changed or at least he felt that things are being allowed to slip and perhaps the WRS members who remained here once the old git brigade faded away didn't somehow feel the need to promote this simple act of respect. No one likes to have their achievements ignored when they have clearly done so well. Right?

Why is it so wrong to highlight this as Sjaak did, and why is it so wrong to expect a little respect for ones achievements from other members of the WRS??

 

[Sphinx]

My style is to confront everything and I'm going to continue doing it...it's who I am.

DITTO.

 

[MisterWeary]

Nah, I don't think anyone would like to hear what I have to say because they amount to personal views of certain members here, including yourself, and any gripe I may have regarding any WRS issues has been attempted to be addressed before without success, so what's the point of dragging it all up again when they were mostly ignored the first time around.

Well I think addressing these things is incredibly important because the alternative is that angry posts are made and resentment is increased when the same things continue to happen over and over again. But I agree that personal gripes need not come into this 👍

The post you linked to was a very good example of a civil way to deal with a perceived issue and it was certainly noticeable in those results, week 84 results thread did not come across this way in my opinion. But it's certainly worth discussion if you and others disagree.

 

[Sphinx]

The post you linked to was a very good example of a civil way to deal with a perceived issue and it was certainly noticeable in those results, week 84 results thread did not come across this way in my opinion. But it's certainly worth discussion if you and others disagree.

And there you have it. I've already discussed it, I gave an example and yet you want more because you just can't see it. I don't have any more to discuss because if you can't see the posts in week 84 thread that ignore any form of congrats then I'm afraid things will stay the same. Pointless. 👎

 

[KLR142]

Actually, looking at that thread from week 1, I don't see much congratulating going on. There's a couple of Division 1, old timers, congratulating everyone until you mention that it's normal to congratulate all the podium racers every race.

You mention in there that people who have worked so hard should be congratulated. Who's to say the people who weren't on the podium didn't work hard!?

I think everyone works hard (for the most part), and everyone should be congratulated. But it's more normal to congratulate the podium finishers. And there may not be anything wrong with that.

 

[Sjaak]

I apologize for being for being so thickheaded, but I'm honestly still confused, Colby.

On one hand you seem to agree with me that Sjaak is a good guy for the WRS. On the other hand he is still the example in the very first post of the thread and very much on display.

I don't know much about communication, but to me it seems to send some mixed signals, when you in the very top of the text say one thing and a couple of places deeply buried in the thread something completely different.

I know it's very annoying dealing with stupid questions like this, but I would be pleased if you helped me sort things out.

I usually just shut up myself, just because it's easier and rarely not worth the trouble.

If Sjaak had followed my example, we wouldn't have had this debate in the first place and everybody would be very very happy.

I certainly don't hope Sjaak will learn the lesson. 👍

Niels,
If MisterWeary will use me as an example for negative comments towards the WRS,it is allowed.

Which not means I will accept his view.
I certainly disagree I have said something which can hurt the WRS.
In my opinion,asking for some respect to your fellow racers in a resultsthread is not negative.

And I'm not alone in my point of view,several members/racers suported my opinion in this thread.👍
I can understand when members who are not customed to give a congrats perhaps see it as negative while others who are customed with giving congrats say it is postive.

It was never my intend to force new habits into the WRS,I only gave a pointer.Going to be the subject of a negative tone towards the WRS by name in a special thread was a suprise indeed.

So Niels,
Being strength with some very positive post about me as a person/racer in the wrs,including MisterWeary,Thanks for that guys 👍 ,I will speak my mind when I feel it is needed.

I live in a free country where freedom of speech is normal.
I hope the WRS will allow that like it has always done.

 

[arora]

We're approaching this from different angles Niels, your first instinct is to protect the individual over the WRS, my first instinct is to protect the WRS over the individual.

I think you got that wrong MisterWeary, Niels is not picking one member over the entire wrs community at all. Sjaak was trying to better the whole of the wrs in his post.

 

[MisterWeary]

Sjaak's post was merely the trigger to talk about deep-seeded unhappiness by some members! Sjaak is a top guy, I am truly sorry this thread has turned into a defend Sjaak campaign, that was never my purpose but that's the only thing people seem to be noticing. I'm genuinely sorry Sjaak!

And there you have it. I've already discussed it, I gave an example and yet you want more because you just can't see it. I don't have any more to discuss because if you can't see the posts in week 84 thread that ignore any form of congrats then I'm afraid things will stay the same. Pointless. 👎

THERE is the source of my frustration and the whole reason for this thread!!!! So what you're going to do now Jerry is walk away even more angry than before, content to let your anger fester. There is nothing healthy about that for this competition, nothing! If you truly care about the comp you'll stick around and seek resolution.

Looking at the Week 84 results thread there are instances of folk not congratulating other racers, I'm not denying that, but my point is that it is infrequent from what I observe and the important thing to me is that the tone of that thread was one of friendliness and respect for each other. I see nothing wrong, others do, so let's discuss it? Anger and frustration can only lead to more anger and frustration. Bottling it up is a recipe for disaster...surely I'm not alone in this thinking? Am I?

 

[arora]

My last post wasn't meant to defend anyone, he can defend himself. I was saying I don't think anyone here is putting one member above the group.

It's silly to keep this banter up.