X2014 Good, or Bad?

[Exorcet]

Edit - forum made a mess of this

Need to fix later

The fan only works perfectly when the car is in close proximity to the ground. Break contact, lose downforce, fly off the track at 300 km/h, although it's possible the car could be equipped with some kind of "autoslowdown" device that might avoid that.

It doesn't need to slow down, the wings could raise AoA in the event of a lift off and the downforce would remain the same, it would just be traded for a drag penalty.

The biggest issue for me is that I would thing the cornering speeds would be so great

They don't have to be.

combined with the tremendous loads on the body, quite in excess of F1 g forces,

They don't have to be

that would make the car undriveable at it's limit for any sustained period.

Well forces in excess of those are encountered in other sports.

I just don't think human reaction times are that good. Can it be driven, yes? Slow it down, put a rev limiter on it, detune the motor, have a top speed limit and of course you could motor it around a track.

You only need to do one thing on that list to avoid what you think the problem is. Slow it down. The hp is fine. The downforce is fine. The cornering is fine.

LeMans cars would probably be hitting 300 mph now a days if people didn't try to slow them down. How did they slow them? They put chicanes on the straights. How do you slow X1's? Make the tracks tighter.

But then you're just moving at F1 speeds or a little better and that doesn't really mean anything, we already know that can be done.

You wouldn't get anything like F1. F1 cars need to reach high speeds to pull high g. The X1 being a fan car would pull 3-4g in corners that are 2 g for F1's. It would also accelerate much faster.

I just don't think it could approach anything close to it's potential in real life.

That's still not a realism issue though.

 

[eran0004]

The fan only works perfectly when the car is in close proximity to the ground. Break contact, lose downforce, fly off the track at 300 km/h, although it's possible the car could be equipped with some kind of "autoslowdown" device that might avoid that.

The biggest issue for me is that I would thing the cornering speeds would be so great, combined with the tremendous loads on the body, quite in excess of F1 g forces, that would make the car undriveable at it's limit for any sustained period. I just don't think human reaction times are that good. Can it be driven, yes? Slow it down, put a rev limiter on it, detune the motor, have a top speed limit and of course you could motor it around a track. But then you're just moving at F1 speeds or a little better and that doesn't really mean anything, we already know that can be done. I just don't think it could approach anything close to it's potential in real life.

You're probably right about the reaction time bit, especially in combination with the G-forces. So it would probably require a lot wider tracks, which in turn makes it harder to see the track edges as your point of view is so close to the ground. In reality it might simply not be doable.

From a theoretical engineering point of view, the X1 does give an example of what an extreme racecar could be like. From a practical racing point of view, it's another story.

 

[HuskyGT]

Nor bad, nor good. I can't drive that car anyway. As I said it many time, If they add it to the game, I hope we have the option to turn off the fan.

 

[thelvynau]

Nor bad, nor good. I can't drive that car anyway. As I said it many time, If they add it to the game, I hope we have the option to turn off the fan.

This.

I would like that option too, especially if you want some great legitimate racing with the car.

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

Do F1 drivers currently take every corner full out? No. The X1 would also need to be driven within the limits of both driver and machine... A bit different than used in a video game. Can probably be said for many cars in video games. A track tuned x2010 tops out in the game at something like 248 mph and would be easy (for a F1 pilot) to slow down for corners, to a safe rate of speed that can handle different situations in corners. I also don't know if the tires would be as much of an issue as some believe. The cornering force generated by the fan would take stress off the tires. Pretty sure a 248 mph top speed is possible with current Tire technology.

It's just a concept car in a video game, but doesn't seem all that unreasonable. Fun as heck to drive too.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Do F1 drivers currently take every corner full out? No. The X1 would also need to be driven within the limits of both driver and machine... A bit different than used in a video game. Can probably be said for many cars in video games. A track tuned x2010 tops out in the game at something like 248 mph and would be easy (for a F1 pilot) to slow down for corners, to a safe rate of speed that can handle different situations in corners. I also don't know if the tires would be as much of an issue as some believe. The cornering force generated by the fan would take stress off the tires. Pretty sure a 248 mph top speed is possible with current Tire technology.

It's just a concept car in a video game, but doesn't seem all that unreasonable. Fun as heck to drive too.

I would think most F1 drivers are driving at 98+% or better from flag to flag. Besides, the discussion isn't, "can a driver slow down a lot in the X1 and still drive it,", of course he can. The question was, "can a human being take the car anywhere near it's design limits for any sustained period?".

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-force

Vertical axis g-force[edit]
Aircraft pilots (in particular) sustain g-forces along the axis aligned with the spine. This causes significant variation in blood pressure along the length of the subject's body, which limits the maximum g-forces that can be tolerated.

.....that would be bad.


Horizontal axis g-force[edit]
The human body is better at surviving g-forces that are perpendicular to the spine. In general when the acceleration is forwards (subject essentially lying on their back, colloquially known as "eyeballs in"[13]) a much higher tolerance is shown than when the acceleration is backwards (lying on their front, "eyeballs out") since blood vessels in the retina appear more sensitive in the latter direction[citation needed].

Early experiments showed that untrained humans were able to tolerate a range of accelerations depending on the time of exposure. This ranged from as much as 20 g for less than 10 seconds, to 10 g for 1 minute, and 6 g for 10 minutes for both eyeballs in and out.[14] These forces were endured with cognitive facilities intact, as subjects were able to perform simple physical and communication tasks. The tests were determined to not cause long or short term harm although tolerance was quite subjective, with only the most motivated non-pilots capable of completing tests. [15] The record for peak experimental horizontal g-force tolerance is held by acceleration pioneer John Stapp, in a series of rocket sled deceleration experiments culminating in a late 1954 test in which he was clocked in a little over a second from a land speed of Mach 0.9. He survived a peak "eyeballs-out" force of 46.2 times the force of gravity, and more than 25 g for 1.1 sec, proving that the human body is capable of this. Stapp lived another 45 years to age 89, but suffered lifelong damage to his vision from this last test.[16]

5-8G might not be so bad????


Just slow the car down a bit for corners, (eh)?

 

[Louie_Schumii]

Nor bad, nor good. I can't drive that car anyway. As I said it many time, If they add it to the game, I hope we have the option to turn off the fan.

Would be interesting if you could do that just to see how the car does handle without the fan-tech. They've already got that option with the X2010 5G though so either the 5G will be in GT6 or you'll be able to change the settings of the fan in the game.

Nice thread @Castrol96. Great to read the insight from @Exorcet on the technical side of the X-cars.

I've said it somewhere in the forum before that the X-cars used on the right circuit (Spa, Monza, Suzuka) are a good virtual substitute to driving a top end formula car in real life. The lack of g-forces you experience while playing on a race seat/steering wheel is more than made up for by how much the senses you do need to use are overloaded when you drive these cars.

They need to have more time-trials/seasonal events and perhaps even some CLEAN online races with these things. In any case; it's awesome how these cars can let your imagination run a little bit wild no matter who you are (1000km/h SSRX online challenge anyone?).

As for preventing some players from using this car I doubt it's going to happen since Kaz's aim for every GT is to have everyone experience each section of the game to a certain extent and when everyone has; the next iteration of the game will - hopefully - be close to release. Similarly I hope the new online lobby system will have options available that will ensure that these cars cause as little of a headache as possible. Besides, it wasn't that difficult to kick a culprit out of a race if you're a host or just leave the room altogether if it wasn't to your liking in GT5.

 

[Tornado]

Next year there will be 1.6l V6's in Formula 1 that will put out about 700hp with a single turbo (and an additional electric system adding more power). And that's with a lot of restrictions as to what they are allowed to do and what not to keep it from becoming too expensive to build them. The X2010's engine was perceived to be a 3.0l Twin Turbo with no restrictions imposed on it. Yes, this can have 1500hp.

Not that I'm a fan of this car or ever want to drive it again.

And in addition to the 1.5L turbo engines from 25 years ago were making hundreds more than the F1 cars next year will be, there have been countless dirt trial cars with ~2.5 liter V6s making at least 1000 hp.

 

[20B_4ME]

I really hope they don't force us to complete an event with this X2014 like they did with it's predecessor in GT5. I know it's a fast car and it takes a lot of skill and quick reflexes to get fast lap times with it, but I honestly couldn't car less about racing cars that fast. The game looses it's realism if you drive something that only a few people on earth can handle properly. I would love to try it yes, but not be forced to win with it to be able to get an achievement and/or complete the game...

 

[Exorcet]

the discussion isn't, "can a driver slow down a lot in the X1 and still drive it,", of course he can. The question was, "can a human being take the car anywhere near it's design limits for any sustained period?".

There are many questions floating around. Besides that one, does the X1 belong in the game?, is it realistic?, and why does it have to be driven in worst case situations?

I think the answer to your question is undoubtedly yes, but you keep adding on to it that the X1 must drive at the limit in the hardest possible conditions. This doesn't happen in real life even with F1 cars.

I really hope they don't force us to complete an event with this X2014 like they did with it's predecessor in GT5. I know it's a fast car and it takes a lot of skill and quick reflexes to get fast lap times with it, but I honestly couldn't car less about racing cars that fast. The game looses it's realism if you drive something that only a few people on earth can handle properly. I would love to try it yes, but not be forced to win with it to be able to get an achievement and/or complete the game...

Does it really lose realism? How many people can properly handle a Ruf Yellowbird around Nurburgring?

 

[Johnnypenso]

@Exorcet If driving it on a race track is driving it in the worst possible conditions then I guess that's what I want because that's all I said. Funny, I thought those were the conditions on it in the game and therefore what we were talking about here, and I didn't envision racing it in a giant parking lot or a race track built exclusively for the X1. F1 cars may not be driven at 100 % but they aren't driven at 85% either. To say the X1 could be driven at 50% or 75% isn't really the point of the discussion is it but it makes a great fall back position for you so continue using it...lol.

 

[Exorcet]

@Exorcet If driving it on a race track is driving it in the worst possible conditions then I guess that's what I want because that's all I said. Funny, I thought those were the conditions on it in the game and therefore what we were talking about here, and I didn't envision racing it in a giant parking lot or a race track built exclusively for the X1. F1 cars may not be driven at 100 % but they aren't driven at 85% either. To say the X1 could be driven at 50% or 75% isn't really the point of the discussion is it but it makes a great fall back position for you so continue using it...lol.

Driving on a race track is fine, but that does not imply 200 mph or 8g.

Why wouldn't you envision X1 specific tracks? F1 and NASCAR practically do that. Also, looking at GT5 is flawed since the X1 in GT5 does not behave as it should due to the inaccuracies of the physics engine.

No one is saying anything about driving at 50%. I'm assuming the X1 will be driven at 100%, it's a race car afterall. But 100% doesn't mean it's redlining on every possible performance metric. 250+ mph has been possible in LMP style cars for decades, but you never see these kinds of speeds anymore. It's partially because of limits on the cars. This won't apply to the X1. It's also because of track design. That would apply to the X1.

In any case, even when you consider existing tracks that might allow the X1 to stretch its legs, any concerns regarding the feasibility of driving under those conditions don't really impact the plausibility of the car being built with the ability to reach those conditions. The plausibility of someone going through the trouble of building it is a different matter for sure, but it doesn't make the design any less realistic. The whole point of the car seemed to be the fastest possible driving machine.

 

[Quakebass]

You know, I get all of these arguments... But I'd still like to see how this thing works in the improved engine - there's all sorts of new factors. Suspension, tires, weight transfer, and aerodynamics are FAR more thorough now, so by default, the car will perform more accurately.

I think due to the controversy behind the car, there should be options in the lobbies specifically to disallow X1's or other race cars, as people have gotten around pp/hp/weight restrictions in GT5. But I don't think it should be permanently separate, for those who may want to do a multi-class series including the X1.

 

[Bigbazz]

The X1 as I remember it gave me nightmares, after earning the gold on each event I didn't want to see the bloody thing again. Sadly a lot of people pulled them out in online rooms and went on ramfests giving the car a bad reputation of the car 12 year old rammers use.

Personally I won't be sad if this car or any newer version does not show up in GT6

 

[Exorcet]

I think due to the controversy behind the car, there should be options in the lobbies specifically to disallow X1's or other race cars, as people have gotten around pp/hp/weight restrictions in GT5. But I don't think it should be permanently separate, for those who may want to do a multi-class series including the X1.

But why would you do that when you could make a system that allows you handle any car?

Why place an on/off button for the X1, but then allow every race car in the world to enter road car races? Or allow Tank Cars to block the road whenever they want? Or allow Veyrons with full ballast to ram you off the road at 200 mph?

We need options, but we need thought out options. A button for disabling the X1 is a waste of resources. Being able to pick from any car and enabling/disabling would be wonderful.

 

[nascarfn]

I'm going to say bad it can be fun as like an alone time trial car but it needs to work proper with wheels first before i say good. it's a great car but i don't want a broken wheel..

 

[TBR 427]

I really hope they don't force us to complete an event with this X2014 like they did with it's predecessor in GT5. I know it's a fast car and it takes a lot of skill and quick reflexes to get fast lap times with it, but I honestly couldn't car less about racing cars that fast. The game looses it's realism if you drive something that only a few people on earth can handle properly. I would love to try it yes, but not be forced to win with it to be able to get an achievement and/or complete the game...

Judging by the online events I host, half the people can't handle off-road racing, but I wouldn't want to remove that from the game.


The solution, I think, is to have more in-depth requirements for the X2014.

Instead of bronzing 3 events and getting the fastest car in the game, why not have a series of 5+ license-test-like events, and cash prizes for bronze and silver, and all golds gets you a de-fanned, 700hp X2014 Jr. This can be the most common one, that will populate the online rooms where applicable, and hopefully by making it a bit more difficult and take longer to get, the quality of drivers should go up a bit, even if the quantity goes down.

Then have a X2014 with the fan on normal and 1,400hp, available for winning a series of events made up of 3-to-6-race championship, each race being 20 laps long, with variable weather and very tough AI. This would be the second-most common X2014, and the drivers should then have the respect for the beast that they really need.

Finally, have a X2014 Quali version, fan set to overdrive, wings at max angle, engine power cranked up to 11, 1800hp. It must be an absolute tyre-eater though, even on Racing Hards it shouldn't last more than 4 laps, 3 laps on R-Mediums, and 2 on R-Softs. Have it unlocked by winning all the races in all the championships from the above series of events. Basically, only the very best players should be able to get this completely impractical version.

 

[Louie_Schumii]

Judging by the online events I host, half the people can't handle off-road racing, but I wouldn't want to remove that from the game.


The solution, I think, is to have more in-depth requirements for the X2014.

Instead of bronzing 3 events and getting the fastest car in the game, why not have a series of 5+ license-test-like events, and cash prizes for bronze and silver, and all golds gets you a de-fanned, 700hp X2014 Jr. This can be the most common one, that will populate the online rooms where applicable, and hopefully by making it a bit more difficult and take longer to get, the quality of drivers should go up a bit, even if the quantity goes down.

Then have a X2014 with the fan on normal and 1,400hp, available for winning a series of events made up of 3-to-6-race championship, each race being 20 laps long, with variable weather and very tough AI. This would be the second-most common X2014, and the drivers should then have the respect for the beast that they really need.

Finally, have a X2014 Quali version, fan set to overdrive, wings at max angle, engine power cranked up to 11, 1800hp. It must be an absolute tyre-eater though, even on Racing Hards it shouldn't last more than 4 laps, 3 laps on R-Mediums, and 2 on R-Softs. Have it unlocked by winning all the races in all the championships from the above series of events. Basically, only the very best players should be able to get this completely impractical version.

Like the idea. Doubt it will happen. The X2010 Prototype with the carbon livery was meant to be the Quali X2014 you're talking about in GT5 until people started to dupe cars. Then P.D. came out with the X2011 DLC which made the X2010 Proto redundant.

I'm just looking forward to all the new things they have in GT6 especially the license tests, X-cars, and the vision Gran Turismo initiative.

 

[Exorcet]

Judging by the online events I host, half the people can't handle off-road racing, but I wouldn't want to remove that from the game.


The solution, I think, is to have more in-depth requirements for the X2014.

That's not that different from just kicking it from most rooms and it doesn't do anything over a simple host option to allow/disallow cars.

Everyone should be able to get one. If no one can, how are you supposed to race other X1's online? How are people supposed to learn how to drive it? How are people supposed to enjoy it?

Just give everyone the car and give the host the ability to protect rooms. The availability of the car hasn't created any problems in GT5. Even with mass duping they can barely enter lobbies and in my experience they're far less of a problem than people in slower cars that are actually tricky to get rid of. I can't even remember being rammed off the road by an X1, but I do recall many people not understanding how to enter a GT500 race even if the host is yelling the rules at them. Even more than that I remember people in road cars thinking that slow cars on a track day = hockey pucks.

 

[TBR 427]

Everyone should be able to get one. If no one can, how are you supposed to race other X1's online? How are people supposed to learn how to drive it? How are people supposed to enjoy it?

I think that's a fundamentally flawed opinion.

Everyone should be able to use one - what I had in mind, the car would be provided for use for those events (like the special events and licenses, it's there and you use it), but wouldn't be delivered to the players garage until they've fulfilled the requirements. If you re-read what I posted, there'd be plenty of time and ways to enjoy it and learn it, just NOT online!

Of course, this would go hand-in-hand with better restrictions for online lobbies (and A-spec perhaps?), but the general idea is to treat the car itself as a reward or a sign of skill rather than an expectation/inevitability or anything.

Having said that, I could basically guarantee that within a month, there'd be a pretty significant number of players with the X2014Jr, a fair few with the X2014 and a handful of bloody fast players with the Quali version.

 

[Exorcet]

I think that's a fundamentally flawed opinion.

Everyone should be able to use one - what I had in mind, the car would be provided for use for those events (like the special events and licenses, it's there and you use it), but wouldn't be delivered to the players garage until they've fulfilled the requirements. If you re-read what I posted, there'd be plenty of time and ways to enjoy it and learn it, just NOT online!

For some, the entire game is online, so this is like removing it from the game completely.

You yourself also said the point was making the car difficult to get, which kind of goes against people learning it and enjoying the drive.

Of course, this would go hand-in-hand with better restrictions for online lobbies (and A-spec perhaps?), but the general idea is to treat the car itself as a reward or a sign of skill rather than an expectation/inevitability or anything.

What does that add to the game though? If someone wants a sign of skill, they can have a title or sport on a ranking board or something. Leave the content accessible. I don't see how it's good or even acceptable game design to intentionally let some people have less.

Having said that, I could basically guarantee that within a month, there'd be a pretty significant number of players with the X2014Jr, a fair few with the X2014 and a handful of bloody fast players with the Quali version.

In my opinion, a much nicer alternative would be for everyone to have all of them from day one.

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

I traded to get an X1 on the last day it could be done and spent the next few months doing nothing but racing it online in Dr. Leyba's online lobby. I pretty much sucked at it but enjoyed racing guys like Mustardaddict and jwill regardless. Great times that wouldn't be possible if we had to follow some of the silly rules above. I probably wouldn't be as big a fan of the game now if I missed out on that. I've spent hundreds (thousands?) of hours online and probably have only come across trolls using X1s twice; and one of those was in an X1 only room. Anyone having issues must be hanging out in some really poorly set up rooms.

If there are a group of guys that like the car and want to hand out, practice together and race it; if that is how they want to enjoy the game, why shouldn't that be possible? Why does everyone need to be driving around in 400PP cars on comfort tires? There are over 1000 cars in the game for a reason.

EDIT:

I can gold all 3 Vettel challenges in about an hour max thanks to all the practice online. Again, probably not possible if I had to jump through flaming hoops before getting the real car.

 

[PepeMickey]

No, just take it out of the game, it's ugly, unreal and it has no real purpose, there are like 10 variations of it already so the nonesense must stop.

 

[Dragonwhisky]

I'm with Oshawa here. I pay my samollians for the game and expect to be able to get all content, regardless of my "skill" level or commitment to improving that level. Besides that, I like having an "I win" button for challenges my skill level may not be up to.

 

[Exorcet]

it's ugly

Very subjective.

unreal

You arrived at this how?

and it has no real purpose

Seems to have as much as all the other cars.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'm with Oshawa here. I pay my samollians for the game and expect to be able to get all content, regardless of my "skill" level or commitment to improving that level. Besides that, I like having an "I win" button for challenges my skill level may not be up to.

Haha, never thought of that. It would solve a lot of problems wouldn't it!!

 

[lldantell]

x2014 is good for me because i love driving the red bull.i hope this car is as easy to drive as the x2011 but a little looser

 

[Shirrako]

Good, but needs restrictions.

 

[Cosbuster]

Meh as far as the normal 2014 goes but I do dig the smaller version idea.