Your predictions for the driver line-up, 2010

[Ian Poole]

I gladly welcome back the pay drivers

By pay drivers, i take it that you mean someone who is just there with the old moolah

Now I can only shake my head and wonder how many seconds off the pace they will be at Bahrain. Shall we bring back the 107% rule? Then Badoer's performances this year wouldn't look so bad (they were well within 107%).

Is that 107% outside 107%? Cuz that is how bad he truly was!

 

[Ardius]

By pay drivers, i take it that you mean someone who is just there with the old moolah

Is that 107% outside 107%? Cuz that is how bad he truly was!

Yes, pay drivers are drivers who get a seat regardless of ability, purely for either sponsors, engine contracts or cash. Generally, nearly all Japanese drivers end up being pay drivers because its a tradition for them to be backed by a major manufacturer, so they generally get picked for this reason. The most famous pay drivers are the 90s ones like Deletraz, Lavaggi and Diniz.

Current pay drivers are Nakajima (Toyota backing), Sutil (Capri Sun) and Alguesuari (Repsol). Though they are not "true" pay drivers because they were picked for their ability, not just sponsorship. Nakajima had showed promise in his debut in 2007 and had a relatively good 2008. Sutil has had flashes of speed from time to time and is a good wet driver. Alguesuari was impressive in lower catgories before F1.
Lopez may be the first "true" pay driver for a long time.

Badoer's two 2009 qualifying sessions would have been well within the 107% rule, thats my point - if this was 1998 he would have done a decent job, but alas, it is not, all the teams are competitive and being just a little off sends you to the back of the grid.

 

[The Outlaw]

The way I see it, he has nothing to lose - no one expects him to beat Lewis. Nothing wrong with being confident he can do it, maybe he can on occasion. But I don't think his public appearance will be affected at all - most people already don't rate him.
He had more to lose tackling Rosberg...

Well a lot of people on other forums thinks he's every bit as good as Lewis, as well as being in the same league as Hamilton and the other 4 drivers who are regarded as the creme of the crop in the sport (Alonso, Massa, Vettel, and of course Raikkonen who is no longer). These folks think that just because he won a WDC that he is all of a sudden lifted to their level...which IMO is far from true, especially when you go through the details of last season with a fine tooth comb. But I won't get into that as you already know where I stand when it comes to that subject Even Massa (who has a better idea of driver talent then either you or me) recently said in a Brazilian interview for ESPN: “Hamilton and Alonso are great drivers. Kimi is excellent, I really didn’t understand all the critiques that people were throwing at him. When he was on….. all of them are better than Button"

He had more to lose in terms of his ego if he lost to Rosberg, who isn't regarded to be at Hamilton's level in 99% of peoples eyes. But to most critics, going to Mclaren basically put him out of contention for the title...and why would you do that? Just to try and prove that he can stand toe to toe with Hamilton, if not beat him? Which will no way in hell happen if he drives like he did throughout the latter half of the 09 season. At least if he stayed at Mercedes he would have had a better shot at being competitive against Rosberg, while possibly having the best car on the grid to win the title again.

Also, what's with you guys not rating drivers? Do you mean that you don't rate them as being very good or that you don't have an opinion of their driving skills???



I gladly welcome back the pay drivers they made F1 so colourful. I thought perhaps USF1 had some promise but now I'm back to doubting them. I've gone from being interested when I heard their "radical approach" to doubting them when they started claiming they were going to field two US drivers then back to considering them a good team when they went back and said they would get experienced drivers.
Now I can only shake my head and wonder how many seconds off the pace they will be at Bahrain. Shall we bring back the 107% rule? Then Badoer's performances this year wouldn't look so bad (they were well within 107%).

I hope for the sake of a USGP that they bring a competitive car because their current driver prospects sound sorely lacking.

Totally agree. USF1 has already shot themselves in the foot by signing such a uncompetitive driver 👎 I'm sure there would have been plenty of other drivers that would have been able to bring good money to the table. I'm pretty dissapointed...but being that Peter Windsor is a owner of the team, it's not a big surprise to see the big mouth talk everything up...then likely belly flop when the first race comes around

....

 

[Ardius]

To "not rate" someone is to say they aren't very good, in the sense of not being good enough to be rated against other people. The general public seemed to forget Button by the end of 2008 and even now he is world champion, the enthusiasm seems muted compared to Hamilton's victory. Only really the media are bigging him up, which is natural.
So being beaten by Rosberg who is largely also a forgotten man in some respects will just further ruin his image. Whereas being beat by Hamilton won't mean a thing, it will probably start some crazy conspiracies in the tabloids trying to paint Lewis as the villain and Jenson as the innocent newbie at the team. Which will be amusing to read.

I've always rated Button as a good driver and always enjoyed seeming him do well, I never rated him as the best of the best but he certainly earned his world championship and deserves to be named among the other greats. If not for pure driving skill then for being a bit more of a class act than perhaps Lewis or Nigel have in the past. (even with that whole Williams contract thing).

I think Massa's comments are a bit bizarre coming from him, last year he wouldn't have said that. Either the bang on the head has loosened some inhibitions or he's becoming influenced by the Brazilian media. Or he's just being painted badly by the media. If Massa has really said it in such a way, then I'm disappointed 👎 Even if its true, its not very sportsman-like, which is what I liked about Massa after 2008.

I'm looking forward to Windsor's reasoning about how Lopez is an American or experienced F1 driver.....

 

[Ian Poole]

The most famous pay drivers are the 90s ones like Deletraz, Lavaggi and Diniz.

I'd like to add Rosset and Yoong to that list

Also, you might not have known this but Michael Schumacher and Fernando Alonso started their careers as such drivers! They turned out alright didn't they?

 

[Ardius]

I'd like to add Rosset and Yoong to that list

Also, you might not have known this but Michael Schumacher and Fernando Alonso started their careers as such drivers! They turned out alright didn't they?

Indeed, so has Kobayashi, like all generalisations, its not always a rule that applies. However, usually it is. Its worth noting that most pay drivers that drove for teams like Minardi usually had skills because Giancarlo Minardi was a good talent spotter. Same goes for Eddie Jordan.
Not to mention that getting anywhere in motorsport requires money, F1 is actually unique in thats its one of the few motorsports that actually pay the drivers rather than the other way around! So technically all drivers start off as pay drivers in some way or another, the difference is when they are picked for purely their money or backing. Alonso and Schumacher were not picked just for the money.

And Alex Yoong was not a "famous 90s pay driver".

 

[The Outlaw]

To "not rate" someone is to say they aren't very good, in the sense of not being good enough to be rated against other people. The general public seemed to forget Button by the end of 2008 and even now he is world champion, the enthusiasm seems muted compared to Hamilton's victory. Only really the media are bigging him up, which is natural.
So being beaten by Rosberg who is largely also a forgotten man in some respects will just further ruin his image. Whereas being beat by Hamilton won't mean a thing, it will probably start some crazy conspiracies in the tabloids trying to paint Lewis as the villain and Jenson as the innocent newbie at the team. Which will be amusing to read.

Very likely

I've always rated Button as a good driver and always enjoyed seeming him do well, I never rated him as the best of the best but he certainly earned his world championship and deserves to be named among the other greats. If not for pure driving skill then for being a bit more of a class act than perhaps Lewis or Nigel have in the past. (even with that whole Williams contract thing).

I think Massa's comments are a bit bizarre coming from him, last year he wouldn't have said that. Either the bang on the head has loosened some inhibitions or he's becoming influenced by the Brazilian media. Or he's just being painted badly by the media. If Massa has really said it in such a way, then I'm disappointed 👎 Even if its true, its not very sportsman-like, which is what I liked about Massa after 2008.

A few others on the PF1 forum also mentioned it may have been the bang on the head that made him say that. Massa is a man possessed now and must win!

I'm looking forward to Windsor's reasoning about how Lopez is an American or experienced F1 driver.....

...

 

[Ian Poole]

And Alex Yoong was not a "famous 90s pay driver".

I was being general

 

[yeti]

OOC...

Why on earth do people think that Massa is actually talented?

His talent was shown last year at silverstone... generally - a driver that is good in the wet - is a good driver - regardless of car... Massa can't drive in the wet - therefore I can't understand how he can be classified as a good driver?

C.

 

[Ardius]

OOC...

Why on earth do people think that Massa is actually talented?

His talent was shown last year at silverstone... generally - a driver that is good in the wet - is a good driver - regardless of car... Massa can't drive in the wet - therefore I can't understand how he can be classified as a good driver?

C.

Yet then there are races like Hungary 2008, Interlagos 2008, almost every race at Istanbul...
I don't understand how you can classify him by one race or that you think a driver who almost won the world championship is not somehow good.

In my book you don't win 11 races, 15 pole positions and 12 fastest laps by being rubbish. In fact, just winning a race should surely be a sign of some skill, even if its a lucky one like Panis at Monaco 1996.

Some drivers just can't drive in the wet, that doesn't mean they are rubbish. Or are we saying that Sutil is more talented?

 

[The Outlaw]

Yet then there are races like Hungary 2008, Interlagos 2008, almost every race at Istanbul...
I don't understand how you can classify him by one race or that you think a driver who almost won the world championship is not somehow good.

In my book you don't win 11 races, 15 pole positions and 12 fastest laps by being rubbish. In fact, just winning a race should surely be a sign of some skill, even if its a lucky one like Panis at Monaco 1996.

Some drivers just can't drive in the wet, that doesn't mean they are rubbish. Or are we saying that Sutil is more talented?

+1

You obviously don't have any talent if you manage to beat Kimi Raikkonen in the points as your team mate either As Raikkonen is not talented either

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

I'm looking forward to Windsor's reasoning about how Lopez is an American or experienced F1 driver.....

Well that was too easy

"Argentina, officially the Argentine Republic (Spanish: República Argentina, pronounced [reˈpuβlika arxenˈtina]), is the second largest country in South America"

-Wikipedia

 

[Ian Poole]

Well that was too easy

"Argentina, officially the Argentine Republic (Spanish: República Argentina, pronounced [reˈpuβlika arxenˈtina]), is the second largest country in South America"

-Wikipedia

How the hell is that an explanation?

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

How the hell is that an explanation?

This might help

José María López (born April 26, 1983 in Río Tercero, Argentina)

 

[Ardius]

Well that was too easy

"Argentina, officially the Argentine Republic (Spanish: República Argentina, pronounced [reˈpuβlika arxenˈtina]), is the second largest country in South America"

-Wikipedia

Yeah, I don't think even he can get away with that. Saying that, I wouldn't be surprised, it is Peter Windsor after all...

Oh, and also, does anyone know the specifics for a super license? I'm just wondering which he would qualify under, if I remember right most of the category qualifications only last a year otherwise he has to have completed so many kilometres of testing or somehow proved himself a special case that is good enough for F1. Obviously he doesn't fall under the "raced X amount of Grand Prix" category.
I imagine it will the be the testing kilometres, but it would be interesting to know if he has done the required amount or if there is a specific time window he has to have done it in before the season (like for example someone doing 300km of testing 10 years ago surely shouldnt qualify without more recent proof of ability?).

Edit: Ok, just looked it up myself, I don't see how he qualifies for a super license, surely they need it before they go pre-season testing?

If anyone is interested, this is the regulations for a Super License:

5. Qualification and conditions of issue for the Super Licence
The FIA Formula One Driver Super Licence is issued by the FIA.
5.1 Qualifications
5.1.1 The driver must be the holder of a current FIA International Grade A licence.
5.1.2 The driver must also satisfy at least one of the following requirements:
a) have made at least 5 starts in races counting for the FIA Formula One World Championship for Drivers the previous year, or at least 15 starts within the previous 3 years.
b) have previously held the Super Licence and have been the regular test driver with an F1 World Championship team for the previous year.
c) been classified, within the previous 2 years, in the first 3 of the final classification of the F2 Championship, or of the final classification of the GP2 Series, or of the final classification of the GP2 Asia Series or of the final classification of the Japanese F/Nippon Championship,
d) been classified in the first 3 of the final classification of the Indy Racing League (IRL) series or of the Champ Car World Series within the previous 2 years; been classified in the first 4 of the final classification of the Indycar IRL series the previous year.*
* From 1.1.2010: been classified in the first 4 of the final classification of the Indycar IRL series within the previous 2 years.
e) be the current champion of one of the following:
Formula 3 Euro Series
The principal national F3 championships of: Great Britain, Italy, Japan, Spain
World Series F/Renault V6
N.B.: the title of Champion is considered valid for 12 months from the last race of the relevant series or championship season.
f) be judged by the FIA to have consistently demonstrated outstanding ability in single-seater formula cars, but with no opportunity to qualify under any of c) to e) above. In this case the F1 team concerned must show that the applicant has driven at least 300 km in a current Formula One car consistently at racing speeds, over a maximum period of 2 days, completed not more than 90 days prior to the application and certified by the ASN of the country in which the test took place.
By exception, if supported by the Safety Commission, the FIA World Motor Sport Council may approve the issue of the Super Licence to persons judged by the Council to have met the intent of the qualification process.

So:
a) No
b) Not in the previous year
c) Nope
d) Nope
e) Nope, he won the precursor to the World Series by Renault but that certainly wasn't last year.
f) Nope, and if he has done 300km of testing, it was more than 90 days ago.

 

[yeti]

Yet then there are races like Hungary 2008, Interlagos 2008, almost every race at Istanbul...
I don't understand how you can classify him by one race or that you think a driver who almost won the world championship is not somehow good.

Everytime in superior machinery - and generally from pole - but of course - you don't get to pole by being rubbish...

Or are we saying that Sutil is more talented?

Well - that's the question isn't it... Technically - I think Sutil *might* be more talented - but he makes some stupid mistakes!

You obviously don't have any talent if you manage to beat Kimi Raikkonen in the points as your team mate either As Raikkonen is not talented either

Kimi 3+ years ago maybe - but as he seems to not be bothered these days - then it's not really anything special...

-------

I'm just not sure about him... for a long time he was a classic "wing man" driver - then 2008 Kimi didn't bother racing - so he became first driver by default...

C.

 

[Ardius]

Put it this way, very few people get to F1 nowadays without having some kind of talent. Even those that have been unimpressive in recent years (Bourdais, Piquet, Grosjean, Nakajima, etc) have had success in other categories, so they cannot be bad drivers, at least not in the sense of the bad drivers of the 90s.

Even Yuji Ide was a good driver outside of F1.

So, the difference is how they deal with F1, and quite clearly Felipe has dealt with it. He doesn't seem to be affected by pressure, he can beat respectable teammates and he challenged Hamilton for the title in relatively equal machinery. Some argue the Ferrari was the superior car - but it was not by much.

Sutil does remind me of Felipe early in his career at Sauber, but then if we are arguing Sutil may one day be a better driver and they have similar careers, that makes Massa a good driver, no?

 

[The Outlaw]

Well - that's the question isn't it... Technically - I think Sutil *might* be more talented - but he makes some stupid mistakes!

So, Sutil > Fisichella (who out performed Sutil at FI this year) who's > Kimi Raikkonen (who destroyed Fisi in the F60) who's > Felipe Massa (who clearly beat Kimi in the beginning of this year and last season). Hmmm...I think you're onto something. Maybe you should get on the phone with Ferrari right this instant and tell them to get rid of Massa and replace him with Sutil, and while there at it toss Alonso to the curb and tell Fisi to get back in the Ferrari seat since he outperformed Sutil at FI and without a doubt must be better than Massa


I'm just not sure about him... for a long time he was a classic "wing man" driver - then 2008 Kimi didn't bother racing - so he became first driver by default...

He became first driver by DEFAULT? What the hell do you mean? Track performances determine your ranking...not how much ice cream you can eat back in the garage while having the media write excuses as to why your not doing as well as you did a year ago.

Also, I guess Ruben's is a completey talentless driver in your IMO as well, since he has been the wing man throughout his career, having many similar performances against Michael Schumacher when he was at Ferrari, as Massa did in 06'

Lasty, Raikkonen beat Button in a far inferior car once Brawn actually faced some sort of legitimate competition in the second half of 09...pretty good considering Kimi "didn't bother racing" Where does that leave Button?

C.

....

My opinion of Felipe is that he isn't as naturally gifted or as talented as say Hamilton or Raikkonen, but through hard work, perseverance, good support, and the desire to win, he has become one of the best drivers on the grid today. He's probably not quite the best driver in the rain, but he has definitely gotten better and can hold his own with some of the best in slick conditions.

Good ole last lap scrap between Felipe and Kubica from 07' Fuji Sutil probably would have screwed up somewhere along the line if he were in this position lmao

 

[prisonermonkeys]

f) Nope, and if he has done 300km of testing, it was more than 90 days ago.

My guess is that he'll do his 300km of testing in Decemeber or in the first official tests of 2010. But USF1 will be cutting it fine if they do it close to the season's beginning. I'm willing to bet they consulted with the FIA beforehand: submit an application and ask for feedback on exactly what Lopez has to do in order to qualify.

 

[Ardius]

See, I would have thought the fact they are having to rely on option f in order to get their driver in would set off alarm bells about his prospective talent. But then after reading what Windsor thinks of certain drivers I guess he would overlook that. They clearly must think he is either exceptionaly good or just want his money really badly.

It will be truly amazing if Lopez turns out to be brilliant, Windsor (or Anderson, whoever decided to suggest Lopez) will be hailed as a genius. But it just sounds so rediculous, why take such a huge risk when you could just as easily hire someone like Paul DiResta who has some Mercedes/McLaren backing?
At least with the Honda to BrawnGP story you may have believed it before it happened because it is Ross Brawn.

It has to be about the money and I'm actually kind of shocked we are seeing a true pay driver after all these years.

Maybe they are gathering the money to pay for a big signing in the other seat? I hope so for their sakes, how they intend on developing their car if this is the standard they are working with I don't know.
I also hope Lopez well with this, I don't blame him for taking the opportunity! I also don't want to seem like I'm hating on him already, for all I know he may be a great driver in F1, but his record leaves a lot to be desired. I mean, at least Kobayashi did show some speed and consistencey in GP2 and has been driving very recently in open-wheel catagories with some highly-rated drivers. Lopez hasn't driven open wheel since 2006...

 

[prisonermonkeys]

See, I would have thought the fact they are having to rely on option f in order to get their driver in would set off alarm bells about his prospective talent. But then after reading what Windsor thinks of certain drivers I guess he would overlook that. They clearly must think he is either exceptionaly good or just want his money really badly.

Lopez's conditional contract requires him to provide eight million dollars within a week; apparently, he has five and a half at the moment. That's not very much for a team, especially when they're already getting significant investment from the likes of Chad Hurley and claimed they would be submitting an entry for 2010 even if the grid was not opened up and there was never a budget cap. They've plainly got the money, but an American team signing an Argentine driver is an odd move. I could understand if they took a Mexican like Sergio Perez or a Canadian like Robert Wickens, but Argentina seems a bit of an odd coice, especially if he's a touring car driver. Moving from a national touring car series to Formula One is not a step anyone has ever made before, even with experience in open-wheelers and testing. My suspicion is that it is in place so that USF1 can say "Well, he satisfied the conditions of the contract, so e had to take him" if they're asked why they're not running an American driver.

Bernie Ecclestone is also said to be looking to get an Argentinian Grand Prix up and running again, but the government in Buenos Aries is more interested in an Argentine driver. If they get one, they may then consider an Argentine Grand Prix. Everybody then wins.

It will be truly amazing if Lopez turns out to be brilliant, Windsor (or Anderson, whoever decided to suggest Lopez) will be hailed as a genius. But it just sounds so rediculous, why take such a huge risk when you could just as easily hire someone like Paul DiResta who has some Mercedes/McLaren backing?
At least with the Honda to BrawnGP story you may have believed it before it happened because it is Ross Brawn.

That was one of the reasons the FIA wanted the new teams to run Cosworths: it removes manufacturer influence until the teams are established. If I were a new team and did a deal with Renault or Ferrari, it would be too easy for me to become a Renault or Ferrari B-team. As we'd be running their engines, they'd most likely be the ones suplying technical help. It would be very easy for them to influence my team; Ferrari are known only to suppy eninges to teams that will not challenge them on-track, at least not consistently. Once the Cosworth contract has expired, the new teams will be established and able to make decisions that are best for them, not for some other team. Taking a Mercedes/McLaren-backed driver like di Resta woul introduce too much influence in the team.

 

[Ardius]

How is that any different to having a government-backed driver like Lopez?

And if they have really taken Lopez over the other options purely for the reason they are backed by manufacturers, they are more idiotic than I thought.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

My point is that in asking Lopez to pay for his seat and giving him a contract that says he has to, USF1 can get around probing questions as to why they don't have an American driver.

 

[DRIFT4EVA]

why not just bring back Damon Hill? please don't anyone actually try to answer this haha

 

[Ardius]

My point is that in asking Lopez to pay for his seat and giving him a contract that says he has to, USF1 can get around probing questions as to why they don't have an American driver.

Surely they could do that just as easily with someone who is actually rated or has experience, like they originally stated they wanted?
I'm finding it hard to believe they couldn't fill both seats with experience, this is why I can't believe they have signed Lopez without seeing something in him that no one else has seen or for his money.
8 million will certainly do nicely for paying for another driver's salary.

Should have gone for Kobayashi if they wanted a cheap, gutsy driver who at least has two races worth experience and already has a superlicense. He also has Toyota helping him find a seat and they aren't in F1 anymore - so there is none of that "oh it will be a Toyota B-team".

 

[yeti]

Put it this way, very few people get to F1 nowadays without having some kind of talent. Even those that have been unimpressive in recent years (Bourdais, Piquet, Grosjean, Nakajima, etc) have had success in other categories, so they cannot be bad drivers, at least not in the sense of the bad drivers of the 90s.

Even Yuji Ide was a good driver outside of F1.

So, the difference is how they deal with F1, and quite clearly Felipe has dealt with it. He doesn't seem to be affected by pressure, he can beat respectable teammates and he challenged Hamilton for the title in relatively equal machinery. Some argue the Ferrari was the superior car - but it was not by much.

Sutil does remind me of Felipe early in his career at Sauber, but then if we are arguing Sutil may one day be a better driver and they have similar careers, that makes Massa a good driver, no?

Yes I agree he is a "good" driver - but I'm not sure he is a 'great' driver... I just don't see anything special in him...

Drivers like Hamilton, Schumacher, Kubica, Raikonnen have special abilities... even Alonso (much that I hate to admit it) has special skills.

Obviously every driver in F1 is amazing at driving in comparison to the other 99.999% of drivers in the world... but within the group of 20(6) some are more special than others...

C.

PS

....
<snip>

You know - your posting style is very aggressive... why can't you reason and discuss without the insults and laughing smilies...

It makes me ignore everything you write.

 

[Ardius]

Yes I agree he is a "good" driver - but I'm not sure he is a 'great' driver... I just don't see anything special in him...

Drivers like Hamilton, Schumacher, Kubica, Raikonnen have special abilities... even Alonso (much that I hate to admit it) has special skills.

Obviously every driver in F1 is amazing at driving in comparison to the other 99.999% of drivers in the world... but within the group of 20(6) some are more special than others...

That was not what you originally said:

OOC...
Why on earth do people think that Massa is actually talented?

His talent was shown last year at silverstone... generally - a driver that is good in the wet - is a good driver - regardless of car... Massa can't drive in the wet - therefore I can't understand how he can be classified as a good driver?

C.

You were asking if Massa had talent and how you don't think he is a "good" driver and used his wet weather driving to say he isn't good. My argument was that wet weather driving is only part of making a great driver, but its not necessary and its not the only sign of a good driver.

No one ever said he is equal to Alonso, Hamilton or Schumacher. There is however case for him being able to take the 2008 championship down to the wire. Did Kovalainen do this? No, so he is better than most F1 drivers and he is almost up there with the very best.

Its debatable whether he's worse than Kubica.

I think some people have too much of a black and white approach to driver skill.

 

[Ian Poole]

And the EDDie Jordan trail of brown stuff has now been completely flushed

Michael Schumacher's spokesman has poured cold water on reports that the seven-times world champion is negotiating a return to Formula One with new team Mercedes Grand Prix.

"Michael is enjoying his life. A return to Formula 1 is not a subject for debate at the moment," said Sabine Kehm.

"For me, a return would be highly unlikely at the moment."

German car manufacturer Mercedes took over control of Brawn GP earlier this month and reports have emerged Schumacher is set to link up with the new team having retired from the sport in 2006.

Having Schumacher drive for them would be a huge boost for the new outfit, but Mercedes team boss Norbert Haug said the idea is still very much a dream.

"It is clear there will always be speculation in this sport, particularly whenever cockpits are not yet occupied," Haug told German newspaper Bild on Sunday.

"And some speculations are just dreams which will not come true."

Speculation grew over the weekend that Schumacher is poised to join the Mercedes team after BBC Sport pundit and former team owner Eddie Jordan insisted the possibility is being actively pursued.

The move would reunite Schumacher with Ross Brawn, the team principal of Mercedes, who masterminded all of the Germans seven world titles at Benetton and Ferrari.

The German, who will be 41 in January, had to pull out of a temporary comeback to F1 last season as a replacement for the injured Ferrari driver Felipe Massa because of a neck injury.

In other news:

With the F1 season at an end, Sebastian Vettel has taken time out of his schedule to take a trip to the United States for the final round of the NASCAR Sprint Cup season.

Vettel took the chance to spend time with the Red Bull Racing NASCAR team at Homestead Miami Speedway, where Scott Speed and Brian Vickers will be in action for the Toyota team this weekend.

The trip gave Vettel the chance to get tips from former F1 racer Juan Pablo Montoya, now running with the Earnhardt Ganassi Racing team, and the 22-year-old admitted that there were things he could learn about from the ex-McLaren man about the US racing scene.

&#8220;There&#8217;s advice about the sport, how things work, what to look out for,&#8221; he told the Associated Press. &#8220;You can always learn.&#8221;

Although commited to F1 as he looks to build on his second place finish in the championship this season, Vettel admitted he was interested by the NASCAR scene, but said that it was difficult for drivers like Montoya to make the move into stock car competition.

"I think it's not as easy as saying I'll find a team and I'll find money," he said. "I think it's very difficult here to get accepted and really get into the whole thing. If they don't like you, you come here and you think you are the greatest and best ever, people can prove you wrong very quickly."

Surely if you were going to get tips of someone who drove in F1, you wouldn't choose Montoya for that would ya?

 

[Ardius]

Lets not forget Willi Weber flat denied Schumacher's want to return earlier this year....

These days if someone flat denies it, then the chances are its going to happen. (Alonso to Ferrari, Fisichella to Ferrari, etc).

 

[yeti]

That was not what you originally said:

Can't someone change their mind? - Surely that's what a forum is all about?

You were asking if Massa had talent and how you don't think he is a "good" driver and used his wet weather driving to say he isn't good. My argument was that wet weather driving is only part of making a great driver, but its not necessary and its not the only sign of a good driver.

No one ever said he is equal to Alonso, Hamilton or Schumacher. There is however case for him being able to take the 2008 championship down to the wire. Did Kovalainen do this? No, so he is better than most F1 drivers and he is almost up there with the very best.

Its debatable whether he's worse than Kubica.

I think some people have too much of a black and white approach to driver skill.

Perhaps...

IMHO - I think there might be about 5 different tiers of drivers... (not an exhaustive list)

Top = Hamilton, Raikonnen (when bothered), Schumacher, Alonso...
Upper = Kubica, Button, Webber
Middle = Massa, Barrichello
Lower = Kov, Heidfeld, Raikonnen (when eating ice cream)
Rookie = Alguesauri, Grosjean...

C.