Your predictions for the driver line-up, 2010

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Of course you are allowed to change your opinion, at least make it clear you are though. The way you did it just made you seem like you were arguing the same point with different wording to get around it.

I don't really have a definitive list of driver skill ratings, because its such a difficult thing to judge and analyse.
However, I do have a rough basis of where drivers rank:
Best of the best: Clark, Fangio, Stewart, Prost, Senna, Schumacher, etc
Current greats: Alonso, Hamilton, pre-2008 Raikkonen
Very good drivers who are lacking something, be it team leadership, wet weather driving, motivation, qualifying pace, etc: D.Hill, Button, Barrichello, Massa, Sato, Panis, Glock, Brundle, Montoya
Just plain good drivers, drivers who have good moments but too many bad ones: Fisichella, Trulli, Heidfeld, Sutil, Coulthard, J.Villenueve, Frentzen.
Bad drivers who maybe didn't get a fair shot but we will probably never know: Badoer, Piquet.Jr, Bourdais, M.Andretti
Truly horrible drivers who didn't deserve their F1 drives: Lavaggi, Ide

Then there are drivers who are difficult to rank like Jean Alesi, Andrea de Cesaris and so on.

Most world champions are best of the best or very good category (Jacques was before he left Williams). Most runners up champions are very good category if not best of the best. Most race winners are at least plain good.
There are examples like Panis who only won one race and Brundle who never won a race who I rate a little higher than others because of specific efforts within seasons that for whatever reason are forgotten and they didn't have a chance to replicate. Just as much as there are examples like Frentzen who I don't rate very highly even though they displayed some talent a fair few times because they just lacked that little extra for me in various seasons.

In all of this, Massa can put a car on pole, he can make strategies work, he can overtake when he needs to, he can deal with championship pressure and he can lead a team. So he has to be at least in the very good category.
 
On the Massa discussion, it's very unfair to rate him based on that Silverstone race. After all, every great driver had his disastrous day. If you look at his whole career, you'll see at the beginning he was very fast, but would make a lot of mistakes too. On the last few years he's improved drastically, and now is both fast and constant. the latter part of last year's season and this season he drove brilliantly. And what's more, this year when he had a mediocre Ferrari he drove it increadibly well. I would have no problem in putting him at the same league as Raikkonen and Alonso.

And for the people who said Raikkonen doesn't care anymore, just look how he outdrove Fisichella this year. If it wasn't for his sheer ability, Ferrari would be way on the back of the grid.
 
Someone floated this idea on another forum, but what about Jacques Villenueve for MercedesGP? Norbert and his surprises :lol:
f1-2008-ger-xp-1324.jpg


I can only imagine the frenzy that would cause on the internet, the bad kind.
 
yeti
You know - your posting style is very aggressive... why can't you reason and discuss without the insults and laughing smilies...

It makes me ignore everything you write.
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For someone pointing a gun in their avatar (an aggressive action, right?) you sure do whine enough :lol: I'm only aggressive (if you can even call it that) toward people who make ignorant comments, like you did when you asked: "Why on earth do people think that Massa is actually talented? Massa can't drive in the wet - therefore I can't understand how he can be classified as a good driver?" I'm not one to let someone run their mouth when it's utter non sense and let it fly over my head like 90% of the people around here do...so get used to to it. Especially when YOU were the one questioning us with such rubbish 👎 Like they say, if you can't handle the heat, get out the kitchen...or better yet, don't throw cooking oil all over the grill causing a fire, and expect no one to get upset.

And how did I insult you? You basically said that Adrian Sutil (according to your judgment) is a better driver than Felipe Massa... and I came up with sarcastic reasoning and a joke to show how little sense your judgment really made. Sorry if you can't handle my sarcastic way of reasoning.

yeti
Can't someone change their mind? - Surely that's what a forum is all about?
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:rolleyes: Who are you trying fool?
 
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tibiquera
And for the people who said Raikkonen doesn't care anymore, just look how he outdrove Fisichella this year. If it wasn't for his sheer ability, Ferrari would be way on the back of the grid.
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Not hard to outdo Fisi when he never had any test time in the car
 
Ardius
Kobayashi to Renault?
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Whatever team he will join, I will be a very happy man if he makes the grid next season. But I'm a happy man already seeing Rosberg driving with Ross Brawn now, and Sutil also being linked with the second seat. According to Haug: "You might be surprised". Sounds exiting!
 
Ian Poole
Not hard to outdo Fisi when he never had any test time in the car
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But Raikkonen beat him by a huge margin. What I'm trying to say is: Raikkonen wasn't beaten by Massa because he doesn't care. He was beaten by Massa because Massa improved his driving hugely. And the fact that Fisichella struggled so much with that car comes to show that both Raikkonen and Massa were driving that Ferrari way beyond its limits.
 
tibiquera
But Raikkonen beat him by a huge margin. What I'm trying to say is: Raikkonen wasn't beaten by Massa because he doesn't care. He was beaten by Massa because Massa improved his driving hugely. And the fact that Fisichella struggled so much with that car comes to show that both Raikkonen and Massa were driving that Ferrari way beyond its limits.
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Fair point but, again, i rbing the point up that Raikkonnen was brought in as an "outsider" as was Fisi but Massa had possibly the best teacher helping him out AND some of the best team in the world because, and correct me if I am wrong, I believe that all of Schumi's team went over to Massa.

Now Alonso is coming over and it is going to be the same situation that we had with McLaren. McLaren is Hamilton's team and Ferrari is Massa's team
 
As far as I remember when Kimi got to Ferrari his salary was 4 or 5 times bigger than Massa's. I think it's clear Ferrari's bet was for Raikkonen. On the other hand, I think they treated both drivers fairly equally during these years.

About Alonso, I think the situation now is different. When he went to McLaren he was the reigning champion for the second time straight, being the first to beat Schumacher after so many years, and he went to McLaren to be paired against a 20-something year old rookie. I think Alonso thought it was just natural that he would be the first driver and get all attention, just like it was at Renault.

On the other hand, at Ferrari he's coming from a really bad Renault, to be paired with a fairly experienced driver who came second last year and is regarded to be one of the top drivers on the grid. Also he knows that Ferrari didn't give Kimi any special treatment because he was 07's chamption. So Alonso's expectations of how he should be treated should be different this time.
 
Ardius
Of course you are allowed to change your opinion, at least make it clear you are though. The way you did it just made you seem like you were arguing the same point with different wording to get around it.

I don't really have a definitive list of driver skill ratings, because its such a difficult thing to judge and analyse.
However, I do have a rough basis of where drivers rank:
Best of the best: Clark, Fangio, Stewart, Prost, Senna, Schumacher, etc
Current greats: Alonso, Hamilton, pre-2008 Raikkonen
Very good drivers who are lacking something, be it team leadership, wet weather driving, motivation, qualifying pace, etc: D.Hill, Button, Barrichello, Massa, Sato, Panis, Glock, Brundle, Montoya
Just plain good drivers, drivers who have good moments but too many bad ones: Fisichella, Trulli, Heidfeld, Sutil, Coulthard, J.Villenueve, Frentzen.
Bad drivers who maybe didn't get a fair shot but we will probably never know: Badoer, Piquet.Jr, Bourdais, M.Andretti
Truly horrible drivers who didn't deserve their F1 drives: Lavaggi, Ide

Then there are drivers who are difficult to rank like Jean Alesi, Andrea de Cesaris and so on.

Most world champions are best of the best or very good category (Jacques was before he left Williams). Most runners up champions are very good category if not best of the best. Most race winners are at least plain good.
There are examples like Panis who only won one race and Brundle who never won a race who I rate a little higher than others because of specific efforts within seasons that for whatever reason are forgotten and they didn't have a chance to replicate. Just as much as there are examples like Frentzen who I don't rate very highly even though they displayed some talent a fair few times because they just lacked that little extra for me in various seasons.

In all of this, Massa can put a car on pole, he can make strategies work, he can overtake when he needs to, he can deal with championship pressure and he can lead a team. So he has to be at least in the very good category.
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Where is Kubica?
 
That obviously wasn't the question if you looked at the context of which Tony quoted.
 
tony1311
Where is Kubica?
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I'd say he's with the "very good but not quite the greatest" drivers. He lacks consistencey, he's similar to Button really, except I'd say Kubica's preferrences for how the car is setup are a little more flexible.
Heidfeld has beat him from time to time with consistencey (and superior strategy) alone. We've not seen him lead a team yet either (that was kind of meant to happen this year) so we will hopefully see that this year.

Could be up there with the current greats if he gets it all together.
 
Ardius
I'd say he's with the "very good but not quite the greatest" drivers. He lacks consistencey, he's similar to Button really, except I'd say Kubica's preferrences for how the car is setup are a little more flexible.
Heidfeld has beat him from time to time with consistencey (and superior strategy) alone. We've not seen him lead a team yet either (that was kind of meant to happen this year) so we will hopefully see that this year.

Could be up there with the current greats if he gets it all together.
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+1

I'll hold my final verdict on him until he is placed in a top seat. But I agree with what you said 👍
 
timeattack07gt
I'll hold my final verdict on him until he is placed in a top seat. But I agree with what you said 👍
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Kubica more than proved his abilities last season. He fought for the championship title in a car which wasn't developed further after the first half of the season. Kubica is a mighty impressive driver, but as said, lacks consistency. (Although I feel the sloppy BMW was more to blame for that)
 
Bram Turismo
Just to keep it clear I was talking about Kubica :)
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But Renault better get their act together otherwise he will have gone for a terrible car to one equally as worse.

I do rate Kubica as a driver, i think he has a lot of unlocked potential, whether Renault isd going to be that team remains to be seen until next year
 
Renault needs Pat Symonds and Flavio Briotore back to the team. Without them, Renault would be just the same as this year. I hope that they can make their cars better for next year and serve Kubica a winning car.
 
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