ZedTunes' Autumn/Fall Rally Shootout 2011

[C-ZETA]

I set the gearing like that so it could accelerate quickly and up hills (what I think you need for rally.....maybe I'm wrong ). My goal for the car was to make it as balanced as I could, not really knowing how to tune for rally. Have fun

Well it seems alright, only hit the 124mph limiter on one of the long straights of the gravel courses thus far.

I'm getting ALOT of understeer in krenkme Lancer on Mt Aso... let's hope that it isn't like that on gravel and on snow

Had my first tarmac test with the car at Eiger Short Track (in wet conditions ) and it wasn't all that bad. It was obviously a harder drive with the car in the rain and in the slow corners it was going off line quite a bit but it felt alright for me.

 

[Onboy123]

Roj, you'll hate me for saying this, but your rusty (but lovely) Alpine just beat your favourite FF Honda, the DC5 ITR, by 23.5 seconds in a 12 mile race I think you're taking prejudices a bit too far…I mean, though I hate, hate, HATE the R35, I don't mind it if it's been made a bit more fun and tuned. Just try to drive it and appreciate it, eh?

PS- since I know full well you'll ignore all of the patronising above, can I have it when you're done?

 

[XDesperado67]

Have one more complaint to file about the shootout format.:Sly: You had us install the fully customizable Suspension and transmission, yet limited us to one setup for all three track types. In real life race teams adjust those things for each track. A really good tune for one of the track types will most likely be off for another. I know if I tuned my car to be tighter and more controllable on gravel it would understeer badly on tarmac and probably have serious issues on snow as well. Using a single tune means either trying to get acceptable handling on all course types or else optimizing it for one type and taking your hits on the others. I tried for an acceptable balance on all types but the car could definitely be much better if properly tuned for each surface and tire type. Something to keep in mind for the next rally shootout.

 

[VTiRoj]

- ...Uhm, well, yes, but the A310 does look alright! ...Doesn't it?

It looks alright I guess. Still a terrible car underneath.

PS- since I know full well you'll ignore all of the patronising above, can I have it when you're done?

No, I'm selling it after this is all done.

Anyway I'll quit the bitching about the Alpine now and go do something else. I don't want to drag the mood down further.

Good luck to everyone in the shootout! 👍

 

[C-ZETA]

Have one more complaint to file about the shootout format.:Sly: You had us install the fully customizable Suspension and transmission, yet limited us to one setup for all three track types. In real life race teams adjust those things for each track. A really good tune for one of the track types will most likely be off for another. I know if I tuned my car to be tighter and more controllable on gravel it would understeer badly on tarmac and probably have serious issues on snow as well. Using a single tune means either trying to get acceptable handling on all course types or else optimizing it for one type and taking your hits on the others. I tried for an acceptable balance on all types but the car could definitely be much better if properly tuned for each surface and tire type. Something to keep in mind for the next rally shootout.

That would be too complex to be honest. Besides which it would take longer to get all three setups ready.

Also tried out your Evo VI again at Eiger, with no rain this time, and it was pretty fast, I do say. Very good steering, good acceleration, and managed to beat (admittedly a disadvantaged) Krenkme's Evo V by 5 seconds in best lap time.

Will also put replays of the cars in runs on various tracks ATM.

Also tried Gfx's Cooper, and it seems the opposite of Praiano's - you can't feel as much understeer but more seems to be there. It did actually feel faster, yet its best lap was 3 tenths down on a track that is 3/4 miles long... It's not just down to me though.

In case you're wondering the settings I'm testing every car on, it's all aids off, minus ABS of course (even though it's essentially faster offroad but remember, we're doing tarmac too ) and Sensitivity 0 (it would be 7, but I haven't gotten a feel for it off-road and I'm worried it'll make everything harder to control, besides which it's not so bad on tarmac anyway).

 

[Onboy123]

No, I'm selling it after this is all done.

Anyway I'll quit the bitching about the Alpine now and go do something else. I don't want to drag the mood down further.

Good luck to everyone in the shootout! 👍

WHYY?!?!?!? IF YOU AIN'T GONNA APPRECIATE IT, WHY NOT GIVE IT SOMEONE WHO WILL?!??!!?!?

Yea, you go away, hater. It's ok little Alpine, I like you, so you stay with me now after I duped you and forget about meany pants Roj.

 

[C-ZETA]

WHYY?!?!?!? IF YOU AIN'T GONNA APPRECIATE IT, WHY NOT GIVE IT SOMEONE WHO WILL?!??!!?!?

Yea, you go away, hater. It's ok little Alpine, I like you, so you stay with me now after I duped you and forget about meany pants Roj.

Cruelty to Alpines.

But I seriously agree, it is not as bad as you make it out to be. It's actually not as slow-feeling as you would expect, it doesn't have bad cornering at all and it really doesn't deserve all this hate from you. It's sort of like the original Golf GTI or the old Mini Cooper S - you think it's just slow, but it's actually pretty joyful in a way. Though the looks don't help like you say

Anyway, I have devised my own 'rally schedule' which I will eventually test all the cars on when they are all released. Note that some tests are repeated as per WRC style repeating stages.

Day 1 - Tarmac tests
1. 3 laps of a custom 3/4 mile Tokyo Bay Kart Track
2. ??? laps of Trial Mountain (currently undecided on lap count)
3. 10 laps of Eiger Nordwand Short Track
4. 8 laps of a custom 1.75 mile+ Mt Aso Tarmac circuit
5. ??? laps of Trial Mountain (maybe in Reverse?)
6. 10 laps of Eiger Nordwand Short Track with possibility of rain
7. 8 laps of a custom 1.75 mile+ Mt Aso Tarmac circuit

Day 2 - Few more tarmac tests + gravel tests
1. 2 laps of a custom (almost) 4.5 mile Toscana Tarmac circuit
2. 7 laps of Toscana
3. 3 laps of Eiger Nordwand K Trail
4. 2 laps of a custom 4 mile+ Liege Gravel circuit
5. 2 laps of a custom (almost) 4.5 mile Toscana Tarmac circuit (might do at night)
6. 7 laps of Toscana (might do in Reverse)
7. 3 laps of Eiger Nordwand K Trail (might do in Reverse)
8. 2 laps of a custom 4 mile+ Liege Gravel circuit
9. 3 laps of a custom 3/4 mile Tokyo Bay Kart Track

Day 3 - Snow tests + final tarmac test
1. 5 laps of Chamonix Main
2. 3 laps of a custom 1.1 mile Tokyo Bay Kart Track
3. 2 laps of a 4 mile Alaska Snow course
4. 5 laps of Chamonix Main with chance of snow
5. 2 laps of a 4 mile Alaska Snow course in snow
6. 3 laps of a custom 1.1 mile Tokyo Bay Kart Track

I know it sounds advanced, and it is.

 

[Michelin]

finished testing with krenkme's Evo V. Understeer monster in tarmac, couldn't make a turn without hitting the wall, on snow the understeer is there, but you don't feel it as much as on tarmac and on gravel it was a beast, the car answered to all that I tryed to do with it. And a beast acceleration
but still, the Alpine hadn't the understeer problem, but lacked the acceleration. Even though I love the Evo's, my leaderboard so far puts the Alpine in 1st and the Evo V in 2nd. Next one will be one of the Mini's.

 

[ryangt]

lol C-ZETA you are making my testing look like ****. I am just choosing 1 long hard gravel which i run 4 laps with a long snow which i run 4 laps and nurburgring g/p course which i run 3 laps... And not that slow? That poor Alpine lost all kinds of power going up a hill.... when on gravel and tarmac... though.. it did not loose power when on snow

 

[praiano63]

Also tried Gfx's Cooper, and it seems the opposite of Praiano's - you can't feel as much understeer but more seems to be there. It did actually feel faster, yet its best lap was 3 tenths down on a track that is 3/4 miles long... It's not just down to me though.

.

Strange, i've just tested both mini on eiger and i'm faster with mine more than 1 second. I needed to change the tires also on Gfx cooper because it come with racing soft borrowed.????? Did you change the tires?? Better correct it and take them out before a tester forget to do this. It happen one time...!!!!

 

[C-ZETA]

Strange, i've just tested both mini on eiger and i'm faster with mine more than 1 second. I needed to change the tires also on Gfx cooper because it come with racing soft borrowed.????? Did you change the tires?? Better correct it and take them out before a tester forget to do this. It happen one time...!!!!

Oh wait, I meant yours was faster. Sorry about that

 

[GfxJG]

Also tried Gfx's Cooper, and it seems the opposite of Praiano's - you can't feel as much understeer but more seems to be there. It did actually feel faster, yet its best lap was 3 tenths down on a track that is 3/4 miles long... It's not just down to me though.

Just askin: Are we allowed to make changes to the tunes over the course of the event? Obviously not when testing times starts, but before that?

 

[C-ZETA]

Just askin: Are we allowed to make changes to the tunes over the course of the event? Obviously not when testing times starts, but before that?

I'm not entirely sure of an answer to this really...never really considered it. For now, keep your tune as it is until I decide if you can or can't change your tune...also, what is up with that random pair of Racing Softs, man?

 

[GfxJG]

I'm not entirely sure of an answer to this really...never really considered it. For now, keep your tune as it is until I decide if you can or can't change your tune...also, what is up with that random pair of Racing Softs, man?

OMG epic fail... I swear this wasn't on purpose. I was running the Indy 500 to break it in lol.... Will fix as soon as I get home from eating out >.< Fail by me, many apologies >.<

 

[XDesperado67]

Okay got home about an hour ago. Had an urge to create a monster snow track, so...just completed it. Time of day 18:00, Weather Snow, 5.50 miles long, 86 turns, longest straight 0.43 miles, elevation change 449.1 feet!

Getting the degree of elevation change was the hardest part. Second hardest even with 7 sectors was getting a total track length of 5 miles or longer. By the way I absolutely hate PD's so called track editor. Wish they would at least let you set the length and elevation change for the track.

Anyways I'll be putting it on share in a few minutes if anyone wants to check it out.

 

[C-ZETA]

Okay got home about an hour ago. Had an urge to create a monster snow track, so...just completed it. Time of day 18:00, Weather Snow, 5.50 miles long, 86 turns, longest straight 0.43 miles, elevation change 449.1 feet!

Getting 6 miles+ is pretty doable with the right settings, that also goes for Liege (I got a 6.5 on there once!), Toscana and Eifel Circuit. Getting past 100 corners is easy on Alaska. Getting past 110 is doable as well...

 

[XDesperado67]

Getting 6 miles+ is pretty doable with the right settings, that also goes for Liege (I got a 6.5 on there once!), Toscana and Eifel Circuit. Getting past 100 corners is easy on Alaska. Getting past 110 is doable as well...

Yeah I had a couple over 6 miles and over 100 turns but they were under 250 feet of elevation change.
I wanted that big climb in there somewhere and this was the best combination I could come up with. Only driven it with the default GT-R spec II so far but using that as a guide figure 4 laps for 22 miles should take most of the cars in the shootout between 16 and 20 minutes.

 

[C-ZETA]

Yeah I had a couple over 6 miles and over 100 turns but they were under 250 feet of elevation change.
I wanted that big climb in there somewhere and this was the best combination I could come up with. Only driven it with the default GT-R spec II so far but using that as a guide figure 4 laps for 22 miles should take most of the cars in the shootout between 16 and 20 minutes.

Elevation change doesn't matter so much, unless of course you're making a jump track. I had a good one of those on Mt Aso before I had to reset it to get it to work online.

It never came back.

Also, if you're getting an idea of what I would do as an entrant...here it is.

No offense, Roj.

Of course, you can't get A310's from rally base tickets (A110 is obviously there if you saw Roj's tune). However, I do have something else that you can get from the ticket that I could use...this.

Of course though, I'm not entering the shootout itself now, since I'm already a tester However making that C4 was part of my inspiration for making such a challenge like this.

And it doesn't even understeer!

...Sorry Praiano. And Gfx.

 

[Milldrum]

Just askin: Are we allowed to make changes to the tunes over the course of the event? Obviously not when testing times starts, but before that?

I'm not entirely sure of an answer to this really...never really considered it. For now, keep your tune as it is until I decide if you can or can't change your tune...also, what is up with that random pair of Racing Softs, man?

Here comes the fun police! What do the F.I.T.T. rules say? My interpretation would be that a submitted tune cannot be changed. That is for the testers sanity.

 

[XDesperado67]

Here comes the fun police! What do the F.I.T.T. rules say? My interpretation would be that a submitted tune cannot be changed. That is for the testers sanity.

A couple of things here.
1) We are still getting the F.I.T.T. basic rules worked out and I don't believe we've reached that particular rule example yet to have a set answer.
2) While the F.I.T.T. basic rules are there to provide a framework for the event sponsors to build on, and guidelines for participants, so that people aren't having to "reinvent the wheel" so to speak for every event as far as rules go. That said they are guidelines and event sponsors can set aside or modify individual rules to meet the needs of their event.
3) From the perspective of test drivers, having tunes fixed once they are submitted makes things much easier because they can begin immediate testing and not worry that their results could be invalidated by a tuner changing their tune.
There is a deadline for tune submission and no one is forcing tuners to submit their entries early, so if the tune wasn't satisfactory why submit it.
That said as a tuner myself I'm seldom 100% satisfied with my tunes and always have that urge to make one more little tweak and given the opportunity would most likely do so right up until the submission deadline using comments from test drivers who have already driven it, to aid in those adjustments.

 

[CSLACR]

There is a deadline for tune submission and no one is forcing tuners to submit their entries early, so if the tune wasn't satisfactory why submit it.

All you need I think.

 

[Milldrum]

I know it's harsh for the tuner to realize that a tweak can help, but what if every tuner changed the submitted tune today? The testers that have started testing would need to start again

Tuners submit a tune as soon as they can to help out the testers but should not submit until they are satisfied with the tune. The only other way to get around this is to not require the tester to re-test a car unless they had already planned to do so.

 

[Nurbek]

I wanna join the contest for the best Rally Car Tuner. My psn address is nurbek1988 Thank you

 

[C-ZETA]

I know it's harsh for the tuner to realize that a tweak can help, but what if every tuner changed the submitted tune today? The testers that have started testing would need to start again

Tuners submit a tune as soon as they can to help out the testers but should not submit until they are satisfied with the tune. The only other way to get around this is to not require the tester to re-test a car unless they had already planned to do so.

Very true point. I've already tested all of the released cars up to this point, so starting them up would be kinda naff.

I wanna join the contest for the best Rally Car Tuner. My psn address is nurbek1988 Thank you

Added to OP, will send FR soon and Rally Base ticket.

 

[GfxJG]

I know I haven't fixed the tire issue yet, haven't been able to. Will do today though.

 

[GfxJG]

The tire fail on my Mini has now been fixed.

 

[CyKosis1973]

Right, with all this talk of submitting and resubmitting, I've sorted the suspension on my revised Group N variant Pug. Funnily enough, setting it up for 1125kg instead of 918kg has turned it into a far nicer car. Having had the extra time to read up on transferring weight helped. (For idiots like me, that really don't know enough, THIS is a very good read. Applies to tuners and drivers alike).

Still going to be a few days before I can re-release. I'm struggling with the drivetrain and how to best make use of my limited power. If there are any gearbox experts reading that would like to drop me a PM, I'd appreciate some advice.

Thoroughly enjoying myself otherwise

{Cy}

 

[XDesperado67]

Right, with all this talk of submitting and resubmitting, I've sorted the suspension on my revised Group N variant Pug. Funnily enough, setting it up for 1125kg instead of 918kg has turned it into a far nicer car. Having had the extra time to read up on transferring weight helped. (For idiots like me, that really don't know enough, THIS is a very good read. Applies to tuners and drivers alike).

Still going to be a few days before I can re-release. I'm struggling with the drivetrain and how to best make use of my limited power. If there are any gearbox experts reading that would like to drop me a PM, I'd appreciate some advice.

Thoroughly enjoying myself otherwise

{Cy}

Cy check out praiano63 garage thread. He has links in his OP to posts he made about setting up gearboxes. I've been using his basic method as shown by his graphs to set up my transmissions. While they aren't perfect in all situations they are very good general purpose methods for those of us who aren't transmission specialists.👍👍

By the way want to thank praiano once again for sharing the diagrams, they have been a huge help.

 

[CyKosis1973]

Cy check out praiano63 garage thread. He has links in his OP to posts he made about setting up gearboxes. I've been using his basic method as shown by his graphs to set up my transmissions. While they aren't perfect in all situations they are very good general purpose methods for those of us who aren't transmission specialists.👍👍

By the way want to thank praiano once again for sharing the diagrams, they have been a huge help.

Thanks Dee, I've been working off of a spreadsheet that uses a similar principle. I've also used a few other techniques contained within these pages, but mostly they're better suited to high powered cars that run on tarmac. I need to know how to initially set up my FD and TS to maximise my ratios for acceleration, bearing in mind the surfaces and low power.

I think I know what I want to achieve, I'm just not sure how to go about it. Some vital stats for the car below. Running default clutch and flywheel at the moment, I appreciate upgrading will probably help

Horsepower: 175 BHP
Torque: ---- 28kgfm/4100rpm
PARTS - I'll happliy change these, accounting for the fact I'm required to use an exhaust and turbo.
Sports Air Filter
Sports Exhaust
Mid RPM Turbo

Ta,
{Cy}

 

[XDesperado67]

I think I know what I want to achieve, I'm just not sure how to go about it. Some vital stats for the car below. Running default clutch and flywheel at the moment, I appreciate upgrading will probably help

Horsepower: 175 BHP
Torque: ---- 28kgfm/4100rpm
PARTS - I'll happliy change these, accounting for the fact I'm required to use an exhaust and turbo.
Sports Air Filter
Sports Exhaust
Mid RPM Turbo
Ta,
{Cy}

Would recommend starting with an even spread 1st gear all the way left 5th/6th all the way right the rest evenly spaced between them. Use final drive to determine the top speed. You can then go back and adjust each individual gear to make it longer or shorter if you feel they need it. Generally I find this works fairly well on anything under 350-400HP.
Above 400HP I start using praiano's second chart with 2nd and 3rd farther left and the rest evenly distributed.