Zeta News 2.0: New VF Commodore and Chevrolet SS

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I've seen guys in the US do "trades" with Holden owners down under because we want their stuff and some of them want ours. It's not terribly hard to swap some bumper covers and badging over.

No you're right it's not, GM will sell you the parts, and as I said there is a group out of Colorado that will do it and even convert your car to a ute if you want.

edit: @GTRacer22 beat me to it, they also will sell you the HSV and SSV badges if you want.
 
Guy at the local cruise in two weeks ago had a SS with the badge convert on the exterior, but didn't swap the airbag cover. I'm not sure if that's even possible. If I were him, that'd drive me absolutely bonkers.
 
Guy at the local cruise in two weeks ago had a SS with the badge convert on the exterior, but didn't swap the airbag cover. I'm not sure if that's even possible. If I were him, that'd drive me absolutely bonkers.
People do sell whole airbags with the Holden badge on it as well. Since my mom bought an SS earlier this year, I've just been looking around at accessories and stuff. Never know what you'll find. That airbag is pricey, though.
 
http://www.motoring.com.au/exclusiv...rain&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Outbrain_cpc
HSV's swansong MY17 Commodore-based range to be topped by revised GTS, new GTS-R and ballistic limited-edition 476kW LS9 V8-powered GTS-R W1 flagship

The last and perhaps greatest HSV of them all will be named GTS-R W1.

That’s the word from motoring.com.au sources as the hot Holden tuner works towards a second-quarter 2017 launch for the W1, which will be powered by the awesome LS9 supercharged 6.2-litre V8 from the previous generation Corvette ZR1 supercar.


But that’s not all, as HSV is understood to have signed off a double-barrelled naming and model strategy with an LSA-engined GTS-R to join HSV’s final homegrown Commodore-based MY17 range at the same time as the W1, by the middle of next year.

As well, technical development will spread beyond the engine bay with motoring.com.au learning that Aussie Supashock dampers will replace Magnetic Ride Control in the W1.

While W1 production will be limited to around 250 examples, the standard GTS-R will be generally available – at least while the Elizabeth plant keeps running – and will sit above the existing $95,990 430kW/730Nm GTS (pictured) in terms of both price and outputs from its 6.2-litre supercharged V8.

The flagship farewell model picks up the W1 designation because the LS9 engine will be installed at the Walkinshaw-owned company’s Clayton facility rather than Holden’s Elizabeth plant, as is the case with LSA and – soon to be discontinued – LS3 models.

It’s a similar naming convention to the limited-edition W427 of 2008, which was powered by a 7.0-litre (427 cubic-inch) LS7 V8 also installed at Clayton.

It appears certain that the W1 will be the most expensive HSV ever, with pricing at or north of $170,000, usurping the $150,000 ask for the W427.

And it will also be the most powerful HSV ever, with power and torque figures very close to the 476kW/820Nm outputs of the Corvette.

It could be lower or, mind-bogglingly, it could be higher depending on where local noise and emissions homologation work ends up.

Whatever those outputs, they should deliver a 0-100km/h sprint time of four seconds or less, and 0-400m times close to 12.0 sec, making the W1 the fastest production car ever built in Australia.

To achieve it you’re going to have be adept with three pedals as the W1 will be Tremec TR-6060 six-speed manual only, although HSV is understood to have pushed a fair way down the path of automatic transmission development before raising the white flag for cost and durability reasons.

Excitingly, HSV’s W1 development work is understood to have spread far beyond the driveline.

Motoring.com.au has learned HSV has ditched the MRC magnetorheological dampers for the GTS-R W1, instead opting to go with the Australian-developed Supashock damper.

Designed and manufactured in Adelaide, Supashock and its owner Oscar Fiorinotto has forged a relationship with HSV via its sister organisation, the Holden Racing Team, which uses them in its Commodore VF Supercars.

Fiorinotto is understood to be developing a new-specification billet damper specifically for the W1, featuring advanced damper technology.

This is the second Aussie performance project Fiorinotto has been associated with in recent times, as he is also supplying dampers to the new Tickford range of hot Fords being developed by Prodrive.

Only the W1 is expected to get the Supashock dampers, which will be adaptive but — unlike the MRC suspension in the current GTS – non-adjustable.

However, both GTS-R models are in line to upgrade to an even more powerful AP braking specification than the current top-spec six-piston 390mm front disc combination offered by HSV. But don’t expect carbon-ceramic stoppers.

Wheel size isn’t expected to climb from the top current HSVs’ staggered 20-inch set-up front and rear, nor will we see carbon wheels.

The GTS-R name was first used on a limited-edition model based on the VS Holden Commodore in 1996. Powered by a bored and stroked 230kW 5.7-litre version of the venerable Holden V8, it stood out with its bright yellow exterior paint and large rear wing with carbon-fibre inserts.

Whether the reborn GTS-R and W1 will follow this extravagant styling path is as yet unknown, although there is no doubt they will feature unique flourishes developed by HSV design chef Julian Quincy.

The process of building the W1 will be complex. Complete GTS models will be shipped from Elizabeth and then upgraded at Clayton with the LS9 engine and other unique items such as Supashock dampers.

The LSA engines will be sold off to recoup some of the cost, which is said to be substantial for the LS9 at around $30,000 per unit.
 
It starts to end.
http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/8ED317AB3D29D7D4CA258045001708DD
HOLDEN has taken its first tangible step on the road to the end of Australian car manufacturing, with the final Cruze rolling off the production line at its factory in Elizabeth, South Australia, this morning.

The demise of the lion-badged small sedan and hatchback marks not just the beginning of the end for all local Holden production – which will be completely shut down by the end of next year – but the end of small-car manufacturing in Australia.

The final Cruze came off the Elizabeth line at around 8:30am this morning, just as Ford was turning off the lights on its entire Australian manufacturing operations in Broadmeadows and Geelong.

An SRI Z-series hatchback was the variant at the back of the Cruze queue, which will be handed over to long-time Holden charity partner The Leukaemia Foundation this afternoon along with the final sedan.

The donated vehicles will be raffled to raise funds for patient transport services and accommodation, with the pair going up for grabs at the organisation’s ‘Light the Night’ event in Adelaide’s Victoria Square this evening.

GM Holden communications director Sean Poppitt told GoAuto that the mood at the Elizabeth factory had been surprisingly positive with about 100 workers assembling to bid farewell to the last Cruze.

“We had a really good send-off for it with a guard of honour and people were in a good mood,” he said.

“There is a lot of pride in the place. Tinged with sadness obviously, but overwhelmingly it was pride in having played a part in history. In a strange way it was quite a nice day.”

For the official end-of-the-line ceremony, Holden locked the media out with proceedings “totally kept in-house” as a mark of respect for the impacted employees.

Holden chose the end of Cruze production to coincide with the end of all local Ford production, and while Mr Poppitt acknowledged “there was an element of coincidence” in the decision, he said there were good reasons to align with Ford’s shutdown.

“The primary driver was trying to align supply chain in terms of the total industry,” he said. “From a supply chain point of view it makes a lot of sense to combine it into the same day.”

Holden chairman and managing director Mark Bernhard acknowledged the dedication of employees to designing, developing and producing the Cruze.

“Those who were involved in the Cruze project have a strong, and deserved, sense of pride at what was achieved in terms of project development, management, engineering, design and, of course, production,” he said.

Until the end of 2017, the South Australian facility will continue to produce the Commodore, but the company has not indicated if it will progressively switch off model derivatives such as the wagon and utility.

Production of the Australian-designed Cruze hatch started in February 2011 and was joined later the same year by the sedan. In total, 126,255 Cruzes rolled out of the factory, and if lined up nose-to-tail would apparently reach from Melbourne to Hobart.

Mr Bernhard used the milestone to reiterate its strategy to manage the transition from manufacturer to full-line importer.

“Holden’s business is changing and we are building a bright future, but it is equally important to recognise and honour our people and our heritage. We’re incredibly proud of our manufacturing history and our legacy,” he said.

“I want to thank every Holden employee, and all those people in the supply chain, for their personal contribution to our industry and our company.”

The company is offering its staff access to a range of support services at a “transition centre” set up at the Elizabeth site to help displaced employees find work after the plant turns out the lights next year.

Each employee is also offered up to $3000 worth of approved training as part of Holden’s $15 million contribution to the government growth fund.

With today’s Cruze shutdown, 270 employees will be out of a job, but Holden says this is a smaller figure than forecast thanks to ongoing demand for the Commodore, allowing more staff to be retained until 2017 when the entire production team will clock off for the last time.

Despite a slowdown in demand and corresponding shift in production, Holden executive manufacturing director Richard Phillips said the quality of Holden vehicles has never been as high.

“The passion and dedication of the manufacturing workforce means they continually raise their quality standards and they are determined that the last cars built at Elizabeth will be the best quality ever,” he said.

Beyond the end of local production, the lion badge will prevail in the form of ongoing design, engineering and development centres. The Port Melbourne studio is one of only two in the world capable of creating concepts from initial sketch to finished rolling model.



holden_cruze_large.jpg
 
It's bloody criminal it and the Falcon are going out of production. GM could very easily move the Commodore to the Alpha platform along with the new Camaro and ATS. Price it roughly around the same as the Camaro, and market it as the family (wo)man's Corvette, the Poor man's CTS-V, GM's answer to the 5 series. V8 4 door saloon priced around $40,000 USD? With cheaper V6 and turbo 4 options? With Ute and Estate body options as well? Would sell like hot cakes. Build and sell it for the world market. RHD ones in Australia, LHD ones in America. Continue to call it Holden Commodore in Oz and NZ, Chevrolet Caprice (and El Camino) in America and Canada, Vauxhall Commodore in the UK, Opel Commodore in Mainland Europe.
****, they could sell the Camaro world wide as well. Call it the Monaro in Oz in the UK.
Run cheeky adverts that play up the Aussie heritage and the Australian-American connection. Sell it as something that's fun, safe, family-friendly, and a bit childish.
Run HSV/VXR/OPC as an in-house tuning company in the vein of AMG and BMW M. Have all the lads in the UK, Oz, and Germany collaborate on tuning them.

Wouldn't be able to keep them in stock.

But GM are absolute drongos and as such won't do it.
 
And how is that any different from what GM did with the outgoing Commodore? You could literally change out the word "Alpha" for "Zeta" and even after GM pared back their initial plans for the platform you're still nearly describing what they had already spent the past ten years doing.
 
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And how is that any different from what GM did with the outgoing Commodore? You could literally change out the word "Alpha" for "Zeta" and even after GM pared back their initial plans for the platform you're still nearly describing what they had already spent the past ten years doing.
Zeta and Alpha were different platforms. Zeta was designed for and solely for the Commodore, and thus only for one main market. They modified it to use for the 2009 Camaro, but that's the only other car that used the platform. Beyond that, Commodore was only sold mainly in Australia and New Zealand. (Some were exported to America as Pontiacs and later Chevrolets in very limited numbers, some HSVs exported to the UK in very limited numbers, and some exported to the Middle East.)
Hardly comparable to making it a world market car.

GM spent 10 years shuffling their feet with it by being indecisive and letting it die. The 2008 recession is partly to blame, but still.
The Pontiac versions frequently sold for well over sticker because people wanted them so badly. The Chevrolet SS as they call it here is NOT advertised at all. No print adverts, no televised. On top of that, they only sell one version. What is the equivalent of a fully-specced SS-V Red Line. Only one option, in regards to the gearbox. (And only decided to offer the manual after people begged for it). otherwise everything is standard. They only intended to sell 2-3 thousand a year, and they've done very well to try to not sell more.

Very very different to what I propose.
 
Zeta and Alpha were different platforms. Zeta was designed for and solely for the Commodore, and thus only for one main market.
Almost stopped reading here. No, it absolutely was not. Zeta was designed to replace pretty much everything bigger than the Malibu in GM's North American lineup. From the very beginning, even before GM committed to making it a global architecture, it was designed to be more adaptable to the US market than the Catera/GTO were.
About half of the W-Body were supposed to switch (with the others going to Epsilon, which was also cancelled) and the G/K Body derivatives as well as the Australian V-Body and its derivatives (at least the derivatives that didn't switch to Sigma instead). That's why GM allowed Holden such a humongous development budget to work on it. It wasn't until the eleventh hour when GM started going into bankruptcy watch that they cancelled all North American production plans until the Camaro was warmly received enough to go through with it; right before they started to get tooling ready for North American production. Instead they streamlined Sigma so that it was more similar in design to Zeta since the CTS was a big hit. Even then Zeta was still supposed to act as a Deville replacement and an Impala replacement before both of those were cancelled as well when GM went bankrupt. Then when they emerged from bankruptcy they again looked at the possibility of a domestic built Zeta, this time for Buick.



Every time they likely came up with the same answer:
There is no reason to convert large portions of your model lineup to rear wheel drive. Certainly not when gas prices were going all over the place from month to month.


The Pontiac versions frequently sold for well over sticker because people wanted them so badly.
I'm sure that's some consolation to Pontiac dealers when it sold about an 8th as much as the two cars in the model lineup it replaced.
 
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You're just wrong, mate. Zeta was developed by Holden in the late 90s after the Opel platform they had been using was due to be discontinued. Back then, Holden still made money. So GM let them develop it. Zeta had been in production for YEARS before GM went into bankruptcy. Get your facts straight.

It's not 'converting large portions of your model lineup to RWD' it's 'adding a new car to your lineup in a size category you have not been competitive in for over 20 years', or in the case of other countries 'not had a model to compete with in 20 years'. It's using a platform that already exists, and not cancelling anything already in production.

They sold an eighth because it was always intended to be limited production and importation. They sold every. single. one. they imported. There were months-long back orders, even into the early part of the recession. That should tell you something. They didn't import as many as were ordered, they imported a set amount and went about trying to sell them all. That's a vastly different scenario to a car being a regular production model.
 
Yes, GM had the intention of using it for full-size cars in America prior to 2009, but that isn't what its main purpose or design was.

I get it, you don't want Australia to have any native cars. But don't just make things up to validate your opinion.
 
Avoid double posting next time.

How exactly did what he say turn into "Australia shouldn't have any cars of their own?"
His tone comes off as 'how dare you try to come up with an idea of saving Australian manufacturing and economy?' I'll admit, I'm a bit defensive about my home country.
 
You're just wrong, mate. Zeta was developed by Holden in the late 90s after the Opel platform they had been using was due to be discontinued. Back then, Holden still made money. So GM let them develop it. Zeta had been in production for YEARS before GM went into bankruptcy. Get your facts straight.

Get your facts straight. Zeta was designed by Holden for use globally. It was made to be usable worldwide keeping in mind the difficulty Cadillac had had adapting the V-Platform for the North American market even before specific effort was put to adapting it to specific markets; and then GM proper took note and threw more money at it so Holden bulked up to compensate. Holden didn't exist in a vacuum in the GM corporate space, even in 1999. All the way back in 2002 GM made it clear that there were planning to introduce a wide range domestic-built vehicles based off of the design work Holden was doing to supplement Sigma-based Cadillacs. Since you seem to be an expert on these things, you'll note that was before the GTO had even come out in North America. In fact, they announced those plans at the same time that they said they were going to import said Monaro. They announced those plans just before they closed the Camaro plant on Quebec, possibly to try an alleviate the blow. They were running Commodore development mules (admittedly probably for the GTO instead of Zeta, but no doubt to the benefit of both) around North America around the same time. They announced those plans before they had even discontinued the Opel Omega that the hopeless Catera was built off of. It was known that GM was planning on selling and building Zeta platform cars in North America as mainstream models for a longer period of time than Holden was developing it solely for the Australian market, nevermind how long they were working on it before they made it explicit.

In fact, it's probably extremely safe to say that Zeta was planned for North America as soon as Bob Lutz was made chairman, which, while I'm sure you also know this, was all the way back in 2001. This would be in line with the very early rumors (albeit with a lot of sketchy details at the time) from the same time that the next Camaro would be based on what Holden was working on.






And, by the way, something else I'm sure you know (even though you weren't on this forum when this news was still fresh and being discussed), but GM was coming perilously close to bankruptcy all the way back in 2004. Well before the Zeta cars came out in Australia, and also quite a bit before the North American Zeta cars were cancelled. And with the mounting rolled over debt problems that ultimately took the company down when GMAC collapsed, that horrible Fiat disaster GM got themselves in and the more pressing need to put the money into rushing out the upcoming GMT900 trucks to get wider profit margins, and the fact that Holden almost immediately had to cut jobs once it was clear that Zeta was not going to be the platform it was supposed to be, I'm rather unimpressed with your ability to straighten things out.

Yes, GM had the intention of using it for full-size cars in America prior to 2009, but that isn't what its main purpose or design was.

I get it, you don't want Australia to have any native cars. But don't just make things up to validate your opinion.
:lol:

Like I give a crap about the state of the Australian domestic car market.
 
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I never said GM didn't intend to use it outside of Australia. My whole argument was that they DIDN'T use it outside of Australia, save for a few isolated cases. I don't see what you don't get about that. My point was to use the Alpha platform that is sold world-wide and to sell the bloody car world wide.

Your argument that that wouldn't work seems to be based around how the Zeta (which you prove in your own argument never made it to the world stage) didn't work worldwide. No **** it didn't work worldwide, because it never sold worldwide.
And Holden had been developing the Zeta since the late 1990s, as I already said.

Funnily enough, the Catera and the Commodore prior to Zeta shared a platform, the Opel V body. And is the platform I was referring to in a prior post.

I really don't know what point you're trying to make, other than pointing out some facts about GM incompetence a decade ago.
 
Anything else?
Designed for the Commodore, yes. Do you know of any car that released in 2006 that used the Zeta platform that wasn't a Commodore? Does not mean it could not be used for other markets. You cannot deny it was not primarily designed for the Australian market, seeing as how that's where it was primarily sold. And you cannot deny Australia was the main market for the Zeta platform.

Anything else?
 
Do you know of any car that released in 2006 that used the Zeta platform that wasn't a Commodore?
So you just don't know what the words you said mean. Because, no, designing a car with the stated intent of selling it around the world in multiple configurations and replacing large swaths of cars in a worldwide corporate hierarchy does not mean that it was designed solely for the one that came out just because that was the only one which wasn't cancelled.




Perhaps if you had much of a clue what GM has been doing beyond how it effects the 2500 domestic cars Holden managed to sell every month for the past 4 years that you hold so dear you wouldn't say such things.

You cannot deny it was not primarily designed for the Australian market, seeing as how that's where it was primarily sold. And you cannot deny Australia was the main market for the Zeta platform.
I can deny that, actually. I think I've posted quite a bit of compelling evidence that the Zeta platform spent at least half of its development period as a global car platform, to underpin a wide variety of car makes and models and segments instead of just spending a billion dollars and greatly expanding engineering expertise; only to sell a car in a collapsing market that sold worse than the model it replaced that dated to the early 1990s and then having to lay a ton of people off. I know it's hard to compete with such groundbreaking statements as "get your facts straight" as if GM just up and declared bankruptcy in 2008 out of the blue and everything was fantastic before then, but so far I think I'm managing.





Anything else?
Yeah, actually. This entire tangent came up because you objected to me comparing Alpha to Zeta, since clearly you were under the impression that it was only intended to be used as the Commodore until the Camaro went into production. So let's step beyond that argument for a second, and go back to the thing your rebuttal is supposed to defend:

With Ute and Estate body options as well? Would sell like hot cakes. Build and sell it for the world market. RHD ones in Australia, LHD ones in America. Continue to call it Holden Commodore in Oz and NZ, Chevrolet Caprice (and El Camino) in America and Canada, Vauxhall Commodore in the UK, Opel Commodore in Mainland Europe.
The fact of the matter is that they did do this. You could buy a Commodore in the USA, in mainland Europe, in Great Britain, and China, and the Middle East, and in Australia. Even the G8 Ute, which would have flopped on the market anyway but we'll ignore that for a second, was cancelled after some of them had already made the trip over the ocean. You could do this because, even though at the last minute they cancelled almost all of the plans to produce them outside of Australia, the car was still designed to be sold everywhere. And there still wasn't any money in it, even after GM emerged from bankruptcy relatively unscathed, to justify doing anything but sourcing them from the same factories in Australia that needed help to keep the lights on anyway. They only imported the Commodore again in America if they could guarantee fat profit margins, hence the SS being loaded from the factory. In fact, the Zeta platform was already ahead of where the Alpha was at this point, since (once again) it was designed to be sold around the world and the Alpha wasn't.







So again I ask you this:

How would GM doing the thing you said above with the Alpha platform, spinning off a bunch of variations (that people won't buy in high volumes) and building them all in one location and exporting them (meaning subject to currency exchange) like they did with the Zeta lead to any different of a result than the Zeta export models had? Keeping in mind that, once again unlike Zeta, Alpha was not designed to be sold around the world.
 
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Oh, for chrissake. Playing the semantics game, really? Lemme make it really clear for you. Holden about 1998 knew the platform they were using was going out of production, so they started to develop a new one of their own. GM corporate said they'd fund the platform if Holden designed it in such a way that it could be used for other cars in other markets. Holden said 'alright'. But those other cars never progressed beyond the drawing board, if they even got that far. For all intents and purposes, it was a Commodre-specific platform. The vast majority of Zeta cars are Commodores, and the vast majority of Commodores are in Australia. That means by definition it is a primarily Australian platform. Why is that such a hard concept for you to grasp?

And again, you ignore that the Commodore sold outside of Australia is LIMITED. PRODUCTION. Do you know what those words mean? It means that only a few are allowed to be sold. And that really only applies to the American market ones. The U.K. Market ones are technically not even GM-Detroit models. It's GM UK importing them independently and rebadging them individually for sale. Again, extremely limited sales. It's not a regular production car outside of Aus/NZ. And NONE of them are official in any way in mainland Europe. They're all Grey market imports. Either the Vauxhall version from the UK, or the Holden from Oz. Maybe one or two blokes payed Opel an obscene amount of money to import one for them, but it is in no way official. A FAR cry from a factory-backed effort.

The G8 Ute wouldn't have worked because it would've been a $40,000 V8 gas guzzler released in the middle of the worst economic depression in 70 years. It also what killed Pontiac, by the way. The depression did. And the SS is a contractual agreement of selling a certain amount of Commodores in the USA. It originally started with the G8, but Pontiac went cactus before they could complete the deal. So they waited until the updated VF came along and sold it as a Chevrolet. Limited to about 3k a year for 3 years. They don't advertise them at all, yet they still manage to sell them all. They are optioned out from the factory because of that. It'd be a pain to allow for customers to pick a bunch of options on a very limited car that you're not going to advertise.

You do realise they sell Alpha cars outside of America, right? Including Europe.

I really am beginning to question your literacy. It's 3 variations of one car, less than what many other cars do. You have no basis to claim "they wouldn't sell well" all you can compare it to is one market where there's less than 25 million people, which is also market that has draconian tax rates for large-engined cars (which is why I recommend the turbo 4 of the Camaro as the base engine) and stratospheric fuel prices. I never said built in 1 place. I said built in 2. Maybe even 3.

Should I poke more holes in your argument? Or are we done here.
 
Oh, for chrissake. Playing the semantics game, really? Lemme make it really clear for you. Holden about 1998 knew the platform they were using was going out of production, so they started to develop a new one of their own. GM corporate said they'd fund the platform if Holden designed it in such a way that it could be used for other cars in other markets. Holden said 'alright'. But those other cars never progressed beyond the drawing board, if they even got that far. For all intents and purposes, it was a Commodre-specific platform. The vast majority of Zeta cars are Commodores, and the vast majority of Commodores are in Australia. That means by definition it is a primarily Australian platform.
Except the discussion is whether or not the Alpha is viable as a worldwide automotive platform.



The Zeta platform was, since it was designed to be. That tends to be the case when you don't cancel worldwide variations of a car until just before you start tooling up factories to build them in and simply change your plans to import a variation instead.

The earlier Omega platform before was, since it was designed to be (in a sense).

The Alpha wasn't designed to be, so where exactly is this idea coming from? No matter how much you talk up how important the Australian marketplace was for Zeta, they aren't going to reengineer an already existing platform to get some scraps from a market that already wasn't buying.

And again, you ignore that the Commodore sold outside of Australia is LIMITED. PRODUCTION. Do you know what those words mean?
In 2007, Pontiac sold ~15,000 of them.
In 2008, they sold ~23,000 of them.
Pontiac also figured they could sell 10,000 of the wagons in 2009 in addition to the ones they were selling any. No way in hell would they have, but let's assume that it would have caused a slight uptick and they would have sold 25,000 total.

Holden sold 57,000, then 51,000 of them, then 44,000 of them; respectively

Do LIMITED. PRODUCTION. cars usually sell in numbers excess of 40% of the (presumably non-limited) production models upon which they are based? Do LIMITED. PRODUCTION. cars usually have sales projection increases of 30% in their third years?


They don't advertise them at all, yet they still manage to sell them all.
2013-chevrolet-ss-nascar-06.jpg



You do realise they sell Alpha cars outside of America, right? Including Europe
That's fantastic to hear. So how many of the... let's see... 951 total sales between the entire Cadillac range and the Camaro that GM sold in Europe last year were RHD?

You have no basis to claim "they wouldn't sell well" all you can compare it to is one market where there's less than 25 million people,
There's ten times that many people in the United States. It is by a humongous margin the biggest market for the kind of car you're talking about; likely moreso than any other market combined. No displacement tax. Lax fuel economy laws. Extremely cheap fuel. Cars designed for the market, like the Alpha models were, tend to reflect that. And all the time GM was dicking around with importing Australian cars, Chrysler was consistently selling nealy 200,000 of a very similar pair of vehicles every year. They still are selling about 150,000 of them every year.

The Catera was a pretty terrible car, and it ultimately and deservedly flopped.
The GTO was a very good car, and it immediately flopped. It didn't even come close to GM's sales targets in any of the three years it was on sale.
The G8 was a very good car whose sales collapsed so thoroughly and completely that GM didn't bother moving the car after canning the brand like they did with a few of the other well received cars with orphaned brands; even though that meant they were handing the market away to someone else.
And the non-Premium executive car market in Europe is so thriving that no one has really competed in it since Opel discontinued the Omega.



So when do these worldwide sales volumes come into play to justify all of these theoretical car variations GM should engineer for foreign markets for an American market car as need? Because GM thus far has repeatedly denied they have any intent to even convert the Camaro to RHD.


I never said built in 1 place. I said built in 2. Maybe even 3.
It's irrelevant what you said, because they wouldn't build them anywhere but the factories they are built in now for the sales numbers that they would pull in. You think they would restart Australian production for a theoretical range of cars that there's no indication would sell any better than the ones they already can't sell enough of to keep selling? How many Opel or Vauxhall badged cars that cost mid-range 3 series money are they going to sell if they build them in Germany?


Should I poke more holes in your argument? Or are we done here.
Maybe if you had actually poked one.
 
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Out of curiousity, why didn't the Pontiac G8 and GTO sell well in the USA as the Chrysler equivalents? Was there too much popularity on the Challenger and Charger? Too much of a preference of Crossovers & SUVs? Regular car buyers just don't like RWD? or something else?
 
Out of curiousity, why didn't the Pontiac G8 and GTO sell well in the USA as the Chrysler equivalents? Was there too much popularity on the Challenger and Charger? Too much of a preference of Crossovers & SUVs? Regular car buyers just don't like RWD? or something else?
G8 was limited production so they only had so many they could sell, GTO was considered too bland-looking for such a storied nameplate. The Ameri-Monaro has gathered a rather large following since. There was talks the G8 would become full series production. Then the recession hit and nearly killed GM, and Pontiac was sacrificed at the altar to keep them from all dying.
 
You know, I actually looked a couple of these statements up because even by the standards of fact checking of this conversation these weren't sitting right:

G8 was limited production so they only had so many they could sell
They sold an eighth because it was always intended to be limited production and importation.
And again, you ignore that the Commodore sold outside of Australia is LIMITED. PRODUCTION. Do you know what those words mean? It means that only a few are allowed to be sold.

For example, on the global rwd architecture, GM gave Australia's Holden Commodore mid-sized sedan new front-end styling to create the 2008 Pontiac G8, which will be exported to North America. GM North America expects 30,000 annual U.S. sales.

That's Autoweek.

GM estimates that 30,000 G8s will be imported annually.

Autoweek again.

Happy times for American hoons. Number minus-one from a first-year batch of 30,000 Pontiac G8s just crawled out of its shell.

That's Jalopnik
.

30,000 a year for North America is the plan, but "I think we'll be north of that" because of the relatively low price, says Doug Houlihan, global chief engineer for GM rear-drive cars.

That's USA Today.

And, badged as a Pontiac G8, more than 15,000‘Commodores’ were sold in the US in the last nine months of last year. The original target was about 30,000 sales annually.

Cars Guide



16,000 sales in its first year.
25,000 sales in the second year (and about half of them were only gotten rid of in inventory clearing, 25% off sticker promotions from GM)
A couple hundred the third year.



And:
The vast majority of Zeta cars are Commodores, and the vast majority of Commodores are in Australia. That means by definition it is a primarily Australian platform. Why is that such a hard concept for you to grasp?

Since it launched on the Zeta platform in 2006 to now Holden has sold around 407,000 Commodores on the Australian market.

From 2009 to 2015, Chevrolet sold 576,000 Camaros in North America. Add G8 sales to that and you have 617,000 cars sold in the North American market.



While there is undoubtedly a bit of numbers cross talk as the Camaro left the Zeta platform and the Commodore left the VZ generation, unless Holden has sold 210,000 Caprice/Statesman models... perhaps you can explain to me where the "LIMITED. PRODUCTION." comes into play with the G8 that initially sold even worse towards its projected sales than the GTO before it; or how Australian Commodore production represents "The vast majority of Zeta cars" when almost every year the Camaro was in production it outsold the Commodore 2:1.







Out of curiousity, why didn't the Pontiac G8 and GTO sell well in the USA as the Chrysler equivalents? Was there too much popularity on the Challenger and Charger? Too much of a preference of Crossovers & SUVs? Regular car buyers just don't like RWD? or something else?
Because the Chrysler twins had already been on the market for several years at that point and racked up a bunch of accolades. They had the aggressive looks, they had the pop culture appeal, and they had the fanbase already. The G8 was for the most part a somewhat better and faster car, and it cost less to boot; but there was also a lot of stuff (equipment and trim options) that allowed you to do up the Chrysler twins to people's tastes like those silly sticker packages and wheel options that the Charger was available with.


It was essentially the same snake that bit GM when they brought out the GTO at the same time that Ford announced the retro Mustang was going into production after the crazy popular 2003 concept car.
 
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Because the Chrysler twins had already been on the market for several years at that point and racked up a bunch of accolades. They had the looks, they had the pop culture appeal, and they had the fanbase already. The G8 was for the most part a somewhat better and faster car, and it cost less to boot; but there was also a lot of stuff (equipment and trim options) that allowed you to do up the Chrysler twins to people's tastes.
Oh, so that's why, thank you.
Also, it's kinda a shame, I was quite fond of the G8.
 
You're STILL talking about this? Fine, let me tell you AGAIN, because you didn't get it the first several times. 30,000 a year is not a big number in the USA, if you weren't aware. Ford sells 60,000 F150s a month by comparison. And the G8 released in 2008. How many times do I have to remind you of the 2007-2010 recession? Nobody was buying cars. Sales for cars tanked all across the board. Especially for Chrysler and GM. To the point they had to be bailed out by the government. Remember? It had nothing to do with the car being good or bad, and everything to do with people losing their homes and their life's earnings in the course of 4 months.

The G8 is a Commodore, you know. Built in Australia. Along with the Caprice PPV, the SS, the Chevrolet Lumina, the Chevrolet Omega, Vauxhall VXR8, and the Chinese Buick Park Avenue. Every single one built on the Commodore production line in Port Elizabeth, Australia. And then you have to include the Commodores sold in New Zealand, built in PE. I can guarantee all of those, along with the Statesmans and Caprices, and all the VE and VF HSVs will send that production number north of the 210k required for your little statistic.
And since the majority of those numbers are the plain Jane Commodores, and the majority of those Commodores are in Australia, my point remains valid.

Are you through? It really doesn't matter, because I'm sick of arguing with a brick wall. Because all it does is make me look stupid. So I'm not responding to you anymore.
 
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