PS3 General Discussion

Put away any doubts you have about the 60GB HDD, if you had any. Some game websites did, although I don't see why.


Sony Confirms 60GB HDD PS3 Launch

Our Sony representative has confirmed this morning that PlayStation 3 will come with a 60GB HDD as standard, but that can be upgraded if preferred.

Some of the larger US websites have been speculating that PlayStation 3 would be shipping with an optional 60GB hard disc drive. However we can confirm this morning that all PS3 consoles will be sold with the HDD out of the box. Sony's president of Computer Entertainment, Ken Kutaragi, announced on Wednesday that all PS3 games are being developed to take advantage of the 60GB HDD.

Another essential use for the HDD will be Sony's online service, which will offer downloads in a similar way to Microsoft's Xbox Live platform. Clearly now it is Sony's intention to standardise the PlayStation 3 community, so that all developers know that everybody who owns PS3 will benefit from HDD-related features in-game. Bizarrely this used to be Microsoft's standpoint with its original Xbox, but the Redmond corporation has since taken an about turn with Xbox 360.
 
tha_con: I suppose I could have been more specific. design of the graphics processor is the main determiner of graphic resolution, not the ram available, and the system ram has nothing to do with that. But that was my point, that more system ram will allow things like a hockey rink to have more individual elements like spectators, stadium displays, spectators and track elements in a racing game, things like that.

And indeed the PS3 will only have one true central processor unit, while the eight SPEs are auxilliary processors that handle various tasks, but since that info is about a year old now, I figured it was common knowledge. ;)

And thank you Solid, for keeping your finger on that growing pulsebeat of PS3 info!
 
Good news, I though they'd have to have HDD included after Wednesday's announcements.
 
Tenacious D
tha_con: But that was my point, that more system ram will allow things like a hockey rink to have more individual elements like spectators, stadium displays, spectators and track elements in a racing game, things like that.
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The amount of ram the system has now can do all of that. Madden 06 for Xbox360 has full 3d spectators and not one is 2d, thats up to 70K on average being renderd. Project gotham Racing 3 has 3d spectators and lots of them, over 100 in some areas of the track and more through out. It doesnt take a lot of ram to render the same geometry over and over. This is the trick TOCA:RD2 and 3 used to get 20, it only used 3-4 car models complete with driver and interior and this on the ps2's low 32 mb and 4mb V-ram.

Same method use in pc games like Rome total war, with just a 256mb pc with 64mb of video ram the game will run. and that one has over 1000 units on screen.


I'm not trying to flame you, i'm just explaining that more ram doesnt mean you can have more things on screen. more ram is needed to calculate game code and advanced physics for all those things you mentioned. you can have a room with a million objects running 60fps but turn on some physics and the frame drops to about 1fps.

Halflife 2's software physics engine is good for about 25 ojects at once. With a dedicated physics engine you can move 25000 objects and reducing the amount of needed ram
 
To clarify, even video ram will not help support a physics engine or amount of on screen objects.

The way the PS3 will work is like this:

GPU will do heavy lifting, such as polygon processing etc, the video memory will be used to cache textures, models, and be used as a "frame buffer", while the system memory will be used to cache certain running applications and engines for the game, for specific moments etc, as well as possibly caching sounds for the CPU to render on the fly etc.

So, with that said, the only thing that more memory is going to do is allow for better textures, but even then, you will run into bottle necks at the GPU, and it will not allow more on models to be rendered. It can, however, offer more VARIATION in the models. i.e. caching several different textures to prevent repeated spectators or textures on many many things, giving the environments a much more believable life like "world".

Just to clarify :)
 
It can offer more variation but the type of games he refers to makes it pointless. Sports and racing games.

Now a game like MGS4 Hyper Subsistence edition for PS3 with "ubber boss battle" mode where you fight every boss in the game at once would require a nice amout of system ram.
 
Tenacious D
And indeed the PS3 will only have one true central processor unit, while the eight SPEs are auxilliary processors that handle various tasks, but since that info is about a year old now, I figured it was common knowledge. ;)
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Well, you did not word your description as such. You incenuated that there were 9 3Ghz processors, when it is only one processor with SPE's that perform individual tasks.

Think of it like a team, they all work towards a common goal, but each member does their own individual task to reach that goal.
 
👍

FACT! The PS3 will eat small babies and use their innards for fuel before ejecting their spent carcasses into the sun at a speed close to but not actually at the speed of light.

FACT! The Cell processor is actually powered by the souls of the damned, so if you live on an Indian burial ground, you will get like 6 more fps on Killzone than anyone else that's only living on the crushed skeletons of Chinese and Irish immigrants that busted their ass so you could live in that fancy-pants house of theirs.

FACT! Ken Kutaragi activates every PS3 with a single drop of his blood, thus binding the artificial intelligence routines to his will in a move that eventually spell the end of all mankind as Sony becomes Skynet, and Skynet becomes fully aware Spring 2006.

FACT! The PS3 actually knows what games you want to play before you buy them and will take the liberty of purchasing said games for you ahead of time. You may think you don't want Super Gay Ninja Attack Squad 5: The Felching, but the PS3 knows otherwise. Just go with it, baby.

FACT! The start-up sound of the PS3 will actually sound like a woman reaching full climax. It will be the only time most men ever hear it, but they will hear it so many times it won't even matter.

Actually, we don't know what the hell the PS3 is going to do. Sony's awesomely nebulous press conference introduced about ten questions for every one it answered, and in typically coy fashion, they're letting a couple of words be taken in about 20 different directions. You want our honest predictions on things?

The PS3 will look nearly identical to the Xbox 360 for at least two years, with a couple of choice games from both camps' first- and second-party developers kicking out stuff that will absolutely make you crap your pants the first time you see screenshots, and then make you lose full bowel control when you see the games running at 1080i/p.

About three or four years, after the launch, though, you're going to see some interesting differences between the two consoles. The PS3 will rock more polygonal detail and do it in higher resolution than the 360, but it won't be able to hang with the texture detail that the 360's unified memory can deliver leading to yet another trivial debate over stupid crap most won't even know about. Nobody will care, of course, and fanboys the world over will claim they've seen Jesus in Project Gotham Racing 7. They will of course be right, so we'd better all repent now.

Seriously. Oh, and start saving up, the PS3 ain't gonna be cheap.
 
seriously, your FACT!s are very stupid. Were you smoking something when you typed that? Lets keep jokes (they arent even close to being a joke though) in the Rumble strip, under Comedy section. Alright? Get serious a bit :rolleyes: I hope you were joking for those FACT!s

Edit: are you insulting the Chinese and the Irish? If so, you just made me your enemy.
 
GT4_Rule
seriously, your FACT!s are very stupid. Were you smoking something when you typed that? Lets keep jokes (they arent even close to being a joke though) in the Rumble strip, under Comedy section. Alright? Get serious a bit :rolleyes: I hope you were joking for those FACT!s

Edit: are you insulting the Chinese and the Irish? If so, you just made me your enemy.
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Yes. I hate Chinese people. And **** the Irish.


joke [ jōk ]


noun (plural jokes)

Definitions:

1. funny story: a story, anecdote, or wordplay that is intended to amuse


2. cause of amusement: anything said or done to make people laugh
dressed up the dog in a hat and sunglasses as a joke
 
tha_con
Well, you did not word your description as such. You incenuated that there were 9 3Ghz processors, when it is only one processor with SPE's that perform individual tasks.
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Info combined from www.ps3land.com and Wikpedia:

3.2 GHz Cell BE multi-core processor: PowerPC-based 'Power Processing Element' and 8 Synergistic Processing Elements (SPEs), also 3.2 GHz. The PPE has a 512 KiB L2 cache and one VMX (AltiVec) vector unit. Each of the eight SPEs is a RISC processor with 128-bit SIMD and superscalar functions. Each SPE has 256 KiB of software-addressable SRAM.

Only seven SPEs are active; the eighth is redundant, to improve yield.

RISC Processor: a Reduced Instruction Set Chip, a custom CPU designed with instructions or functions tailored for specific hardware to increase speed and efficiency.

You're splitting hairs, dude.

As for the system ram issues, I'm aware of all that. The 256 megs will allow developers to do tons of undreamed of things. But among my friends is a software writer, and we all yacked about the systems.

"Of course developers want more ram. The more ram you have in the box, the less loading and load overhead you have taxing the system, and the more you have in the box that builds your world and makes it active. Any object that has actions attached to it will need ram space to handle the code and maybe model data for it. People in crowds, flags or raindrops. And Sony's people mentioned having 1024 audio channels. All that audio will need space for buffers. A thousand audio channels will need a thousand individual buffer blocks. A one second buffer would be 44K, and a thousand buffers would be 44 megs. I guarantee you that the next generation game systems will have a megabyte of system ram because the games will be needing that or more by then."

I know that even with a 256 meg GeFforce 6800 GT, Battlefield 2 needs a gigabyte of ram or more. Some people went to 2 gigs and noticed a difference, and that was with only a hundred objects on screen if that. And Windows XP takes up 100 megs or less. So, I know that the PS3 and 360 will be mind bogglingly cool, but I still insist that 256 megs of system ram, as one developer said, isn't like having a mansion to house a family of six. ;)
 
Tenacious D
I guarantee you that the next generation game systems will have a megabyte of system ram because the games will be needing that or more by then.
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Was your friend talking about my Mac Plus from 1984 or the PS4?
Damn that would be efficient memory management if the PS4 only needed 1MB of RAM. With quantum computing round the corner... who knows! 1984 may really be the future - Orwell was right! ;)
 
Tenacious D
Info combined from www.ps3land.com and Wikpedia:

3.2 GHz Cell BE multi-core processor: PowerPC-based 'Power Processing Element' and 8 Synergistic Processing Elements (SPEs), also 3.2 GHz. The PPE has a 512 KiB L2 cache and one VMX (AltiVec) vector unit. Each of the eight SPEs is a RISC processor with 128-bit SIMD and superscalar functions. Each SPE has 256 KiB of software-addressable SRAM.

Only seven SPEs are active; the eighth is redundant, to improve yield.

RISC Processor: a Reduced Instruction Set Chip, a custom CPU designed with instructions or functions tailored for specific hardware to increase speed and efficiency.

You're splitting hairs, dude.

As for the system ram issues, I'm aware of all that. The 256 megs will allow developers to do tons of undreamed of things. But among my friends is a software writer, and we all yacked about the systems.

"Of course developers want more ram. The more ram you have in the box, the less loading and load overhead you have taxing the system, and the more you have in the box that builds your world and makes it active. Any object that has actions attached to it will need ram space to handle the code and maybe model data for it. People in crowds, flags or raindrops. And Sony's people mentioned having 1024 audio channels. All that audio will need space for buffers. A thousand audio channels will need a thousand individual buffer blocks. A one second buffer would be 44K, and a thousand buffers would be 44 megs. I guarantee you that the next generation game systems will have a megabyte of system ram because the games will be needing that or more by then."

I know that even with a 256 meg GeFforce 6800 GT, Battlefield 2 needs a gigabyte of ram or more. Some people went to 2 gigs and noticed a difference, and that was with only a hundred objects on screen if that. And Windows XP takes up 100 megs or less. So, I know that the PS3 and 360 will be mind bogglingly cool, but I still insist that 256 megs of system ram, as one developer said, isn't like having a mansion to house a family of six. ;)
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I'm not sure exactly what you are getting at citing information I already knew.

Again, you implied that there were "9" processors in the unit, and "it would be tough to keep cool". And I quote:

I think the only thing to worry about, really, is properly cooling nine 3ghz processors. Maybe Sony can design something like the Dreamcast's water cooling system which was quite efficient.
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Now, considering that IBM will be using Silicon Straining (a process which improves the conductivity of the chip and thus effectively reduces the power consumption by nearly 40%) it will shave some of the heat build up, negating the need for such cooling. However, in your case, and the context of your words, you are saying that it is running a 9 processor set up, when it's one. Just one. There is no way to say it as any more. RISC does not denote another processor, nor does it add to the core count or anything more. It simply implies that a component of the processor is specialized to handle assigned tasks individually to improve effeciency and overall performance yield.

As for the memory, again, a console is 100x different from a PC, or PC applications. There are multiple reasons why PC games require so much memory, and almost all of them don't exsist on a console.

Provided your PC is fast enough, I ask you to enjoy this demo:

http://www.theprodukkt.com/kkrieger.html#dload

96KB of good ness. It looks comparable to games like Max Payne, the sound is bad, but my point is, with compression technology, a lot of memory is free to do other things with. No longer is there a huge need for a giant frame buffer. Also, the day I see a game running more than 500 channels of audio is the day I spend 10 grand on a new stereo. I doubt this generation we'll see any more than 300 different audio channels running at once, if at all during a level. Just sit and think about how much ahs to go one to need 300 audio channels.
 
tha_con, if you insist that the only processor in the unit is a CPU, then more power to you. This reminds me of the discussion of SOCOM....

As for the rest of it, I guess if the developers say they'll never want more ram, that'll settle it. You act like I'm saying the PS3 will have mundane graphics and game environs, even as the 360 is out, playable, and with a library ownable games. Oh well...
 
The Cell chip uses a highly parallel architecture with a total of 9 cores. These cores consist of a custom general purpose PowerPC processor core which is connected to 8 "synergistic processing elements" or SPE’s for short though a central bus called the element interface bus [EIS].

The PPC core is the brains and the SPE’s are the main workers in this design. Unlike some other parallel processors the Cell can be clocked very high, in fact with voltages ranging from 0.9 to 1.3 volts it can reach clock speeds of 3.2 to 5.2GHz. At 4GHz each SPE can achieve a theoretical maximum of 32GFLOPS.

The 'Cell' chip which will consist of 234 million transistors, and have a die size of 221mm sqaured. A single Cell is theoretically capable of achieving a maximum of 256 billion floating-point operations per second (GFLOPS). This astounding single precision (32bit) floating point performance has been achieved by using a new radical architecture. - Sony
 
Battle Field 2 doesnt need a gig a ram to play, It needs a gig of ram to have a smooth multiplayer game of 32 plus. I know I tested the game with both 512mb and 1536mb. single player is smooth but multi with 32 players is not with 512. also you are referencing pc games to console. Halo2 would run like crap on a pc with 64mb and a 233mhz gpu sharing that same 64mb of ram.
 
I really would wish that people would stop comparing PC's and Consoles, they are totally different. PS3 will only need the ram they have given it to make games look good. The RAM XDR is so fast it will glow :D
 
sprite
I really would wish that people would stop comparing PC's and Consoles, they are totally different. PS3 will only need the ram they have given it to make games look good. The RAM XDR is so fast it will glow :D
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Not to mention that while a PC and console share concepts, a console is a one trick pony. It doesn't need to worry about a lot of the stuff that PC's have to worry about. Just look at the progression of games of the life of the console to prove that. PC's on the other hand tend to say, "Get at least this hardware configuration to run this game" That's why I tend to stick with consoles for gaming. :)
 
Swift
Not to mention that while a PC and console share concepts, a console is a one trick pony. It doesn't need to worry about a lot of the stuff that PC's have to worry about. Just look at the progression of games of the life of the console to prove that. PC's on the other hand tend to say, "Get at least this hardware configuration to run this game" That's why I tend to stick with consoles for gaming. :)
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Same here, consoles do what they were made to do and thats that. PC's do loads of things and need huge amounts of memory just to keep the OS in check let alone to run aplications. I do play games on pc but im a big fan of consoles, plus i hat installing stuff to the pc then all the ahstle updating to the latest patch and all the shinanagans of making a game run adiquate on my pc (its slow :grumpy: ) where as just pop in a disk into the PS2 and away you go. 👍
 
sprite
I do play games on pc but im a big fan of consoles, plus i hat installing stuff to the pc then all the ahstle updating to the latest patch and all the shinanagans of making a game run adiquate on my pc (its slow :grumpy: ) where as just pop in a disk into the PS2 and away you go. 👍
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And usually for MUCH less in the long run. :sly:
 
exactly, spend £1500 on a resonable pc that will play about 6 to 7 months worth of games or spend £300 on a console that lasts upto 5 years, I still play gen 1 ps1 games so for the major part of my gaming it has to be console, with a pc for everything else. One thing i hate playing on a Playstation is FPS games. On a pad they suck (for me anyway).

March 20, 2006 - A couple of tech announcements from the Game Developer’s Conference:
NVIDIA and Havok Demonstrate World’s First GPU-Powered Game Physics Solution at Game Developer’s Conference

NVIDIA Corporation, the worldwide leader in programmable graphics processor technologies, and Havok, the game industry’s leading supplier of cross- platform middleware, will be demonstrating a physics effects solution that runs completely on a graphics processing unit (GPU) — an industry first — at this year’s Game Developer Conference (GDC) in San Jose, California (March 21st through 24th).
The result of an ongoing engineering collaboration between Havok and NVIDIA, this new software product from Havok — called Havok FX — enables the simulation of dramatically-detailed physical phenomena in PC games, when powered by GPUs such as NVIDIA GeForce 7 or 6 Series GPUs and further amplified with NVIDIA SLI multi-GPU technology. The Havok FX product is currently in early release to select developers and is expected to be available this summer.

Through Havok FX, GPUs can simulate the interactions of thousands of colliding rigid bodies, a fundamental technique of physics computation seen in today’s latest games. It’s now possible to compute the components of friction, collisions, gravity, mass, and velocity that form the basis of rigid body physics. Havok FX is designed for GPUs supporting Shader Model 3.0, including the NVIDIA GeForce 6 and 7 Series GPUs.

Utilizing Havok FX and NVIDIA graphics technology, game developers can now implement sophisticated physical phenomenon such as debris, smoke, and fluids that add immense detail and believability to game environments. Game designers can include advanced physics effects without burdening the CPU and slowing game-play, since the effects are simulated and rendered on the GPU.

LINK

Tyler Thompson, Technical Director of video game developer Flagship Studios states, “With Havok FX, we can explore new types of visual effects that add realism into Hellgate: London. Given the widespread installed base of GPUs and the incredible performance of the new NVIDIA GeForce 7900 GTX and GT GPUs, Havok FX was a natural choice.”

“We are very excited about the quality and speed we are seeing on the NVIDIA GPUs. We’ve believed for some time that GPU technology had the potential to simulate physical effects and our collaboration with NVIDIA has proven that,” says Jeff Yates, VP of Product Management at Havok. “The large installed base of Shader Model 3 class GPUs and momentum by NVIDIA in the market make Havok FX an attractive solution for game developers looking for hardware-accelerated physics.”

“Moving physics processing to the GPU is a natural progression enabled by the high programmability in today’s GPUs,” said David Kirk, chief scientist at NVIDIA. “By combining expertise with Havok, we have produced a fantastic solution for game developers that will lead to more compelling game-play and more realistic gaming experiences.”

The award-winning NVIDIA GeForce 7 and GeForce 6 graphics architectures deliver advanced technologies including full support for Microsoft DirectX 9.0 Shader Model 3.0, enabling advanced shading programs for more realistic effects. By using the advanced programmable resources available in current GPUs, developers can harness the massive parallel computation capability of NVIDIA GPUs. The performance available to developers is further enhanced through NVIDIA SLI technology. This revolutionary platform innovation allows users to intelligently scale graphics performance by combining multiple NVIDIA graphics solutions in a single system with an NVIDIA nForce SLI MCP.
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Im guessing PS3 will maybe have this, but i see no need since the Cell is king at this type of calculation, but at least developers have a choice now.

[edit]

ohh yeh i forgot this piece of really good info.

gamesindustry.biz
Quazal, makers of the Net-Z and Rendez-Vous online multiplayer middleware technologies, and the newly announced Spark! lobby technology, is pleased to announce today that they have been approved for Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. (SCEI)'s Tools and Middleware program for PLAYSTATION®3" computer entertainment system, and that versions are ready for evaluation by interested "PLAYSTATION®3" game title developers.

With this approval, Quazal will develop and market networking middleware technologies for the powerful computer entertainment system, much to the delight of dozens of developers and publishers who have been anxious to work with Quazal's Net-Z in-game and Rendez-Vous lobby and matchmaking technologies for "PLAYSTATION®3".

"The next generation of game consoles brings a lot of power to developers, but many of the problems inherent in online gaming remain," said Martin Lavoie, CTO of Quazal. "With true cross-title support, and support for multiple "PlayStation®" platforms developers can save time and money on their online games, while delivering cutting edge features to their end users."

By incorporating Quazal's technology into their game titles, developers and publishers will open the door to low-risk lobby and matchmaking development with Quazal Spark!, as well as the innovative features of Quazal Net-Z and Rendez-Vous. Because of the cross-platform nature of Quazal's technologies, these ideas will be far easier to implement than ever before.

"A developer making a game during this transition period may want to target not only next-generation platforms like "PLAYSTATION®3", but also current generation platforms such as "PlayStation® 2" and "PSPTM" (PlayStation®Portable)," stated Mike Drummelsmith, Developer Relations Manager at Quazal. "With Quazal's technologies, including the new Spark! platform, online games can target all three of these platforms with minimal effort, lowering risk drastically."
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This is also used on the 360. Atleast it will take off the preasure for making online stuff, and maybe more developers will create some online content for PS3 games more than PS2.
 
xactly, spend £1500 on a resonable pc that will play about 6 to 7 months worth of games
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Not accurate. A pc that costs 1500 quid will last you YEARS, all that will happen is that you will have to gradually shift settings down from max to low over the years. I've had my 9800 pro for about 3 years, and it still (only just) allows me to play most high demand modern games on medium.

A 500-700 quid pc will be good enough to play Oblivion.
 
code_kev
Not accurate. A pc that costs 1500 quid will last you YEARS, all that will happen is that you will have to gradually shift settings down from max to low over the years. I've had my 9800 pro for about 3 years, and it still (only just) allows me to play most high demand modern games on medium.

A 500-700 quid pc will be good enough to play Oblivion.
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well the pc i have is 4 years old and cost me £1300 new, and yes it plays HL2 and that, but its so rubish it wont play anything later than HL2 or Doom 3 severly on low quality, Knocking down the quality is a good way to ensure that games run on an old PC, but who really wants to do that? personally its the gameplay over graphics for me (Im currently playing through Zelda - The ocarina of time on gamecube), but most games these days seem to be just a graphics ramp and nothing in the way of gameplay. At least you dont have those problems on a console.

Infact my pc wont even play anything decent without messing with the CFG files, and messing with the setup and settings, console gaming is a cost effective way of enjoying the latest games and without the hassle of messing with the system.
 
My PC cost £800 and that was 4 years ago, I've since then bought a new graphics card for £155 and I can still play new games at max or high detail.
 
Source: CVG

PS3 WILL SHIP WITH HARD DRIVE INCLUDED

Phew, well that's a weight off our minds as SCEE confirm PS3 HD is included!

Sony Computer Entertainment Europe (SCEE) has stated that PS3 will ship with a hard drive included, according to a report on Next-Gen.biz.

Confirmation on the inclusion of a HDD in the PS3 package follows revelations from Sony's Ken Kutaragi at last week's PlayStation Business Briefing that a hard drive is required for gaming on the next-gen console. What wasn't clear at the time though was whether a hard drive would have to be purchased as an extra or would be an out-of-the-box feature. But that all appears to be cleared up now. Phew.

Speaking at the briefing last week, Kutaragi said that the PS3 has been developed with a hard disk in mind, developers asked "to develop games as though all PS3s have the HDD installed." PS3's HDD will be 60Gb in capacity, but will be upgradeable, will run Linux and will perform media hub and home server/network platform services, with Sony additionally saying that the hard drive unit will enhance gameplay and allow for full internet access.
 
code_kev
Not accurate. A pc that costs 1500 quid will last you YEARS, all that will happen is that you will have to gradually shift settings down from max to low over the years. I've had my 9800 pro for about 3 years, and it still (only just) allows me to play most high demand modern games on medium.
Click to expand...

Exactly, get better looking games as you go on(for a three year cycle) or have to turn down the detail and graphical power of your PC games(over that same three year cycle). Except for FPS(and possibly MMORPG's), the console is a much smarter financial investment for a gamer.
 

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