Al Qaeda - A time to talk?

  • Thread starter KSaiyu
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You live in Chicago.

Did you have fun while the IRA were leaving bombs in post-boxes and car bombing buildings? Do you remeber the constant police cordons? The constant warnings? The constant threats? DId you visit Northern Ireland and see the tanks trundling through housing estates? Did you see thr fear and agitation on the faces of the soldiers positioned in those esates and on those streets?

Do you remember the huge slump in tourism caused when several countries advised tourists not to travel to Britain on account of it being a war zone?

During the IRA's campaign they proved to be a much bigger threat to the United Kingdom than Al Qaeda ever was, is, or could be. Pretty damn radical in my books.

If it were not for negotiation with the IRA and the foundation of a very stable ceasfire Britain would not be able to offer troops for the USA's 'War on Terror', we would still be fighting our own one.

I'm not suggesting that the IRA was a bunch of misunderstood terrorists who just wanted peace... obviously they were full of hatred and carried it out in insidious ways.

So to the UK, yes they were more dangerous than Al Queda's successful attacks have been so far.

However this was a group that was able to be sat down with and made diplomatic resolutions that led to peace... if I'm mistaken please correct me.
 
You live in Chicago.

Did you have fun while the IRA were leaving bombs in post-boxes and car bombing buildings? Do you remeber the constant police cordons? The constant warnings? The constant threats? DId you visit Northern Ireland and see the tanks trundling through housing estates? Did you see thr fear and agitation on the faces of the soldiers positioned in those esates and on those streets?
*snip*

All good points. And you're right. The IRA was a huge threat to England. There is no doubt. But they weren't against an entire civilization like these moronic al-Quida are. They want to get rid of all people that aren't radical muslims. Not just all people in their particular country that don't share their views.

Again, the IRA was serioius and radical. But not on the same global scale as these sick al-quida.
 
However this was a group that was able to be sat down with and made diplomatic resolutions that led to peace... if I'm mistaken please correct me.

You are not at all mistaken, the IRA were perfectly prepared to talk. At the time, however, the decision to engage in talks with the IRA was a very controversial one and was opposed by many, if not most, of the population for reasons which have already appeared in this thread.

While I agree diplomacy will not work with the most harddcore al qaeda extremists Al Qaeda is made up of many terrorist organizations many no less rational than the IRA and because of this reasoning with cell and group leaders will (I predict) in many cases be sucsessful thus weakening Al Qaeda severely.
 
However this was a group that was able to be sat down with and made diplomatic resolutions that led to peace... if I'm mistaken please correct me.

The IRA itself was, however certain elements within the IRA did not agree and formed splinter groups that are still very much active, such as the Real IRA, last attack Sept 2005.

A Real IRA member is currently in trail for the 1998 bombing campaign, which included (among others) the death of 29 people in Omagh.

http://www.tkb.org/Group.jsp?groupID=91

While the scale is now very much smaller, please do not underestimate the determination of these individuals to continue in their actions.

They certainly still keep the British Security Services busy....

In June 2006, 10 members of the group were arrested for buying small arms and heavier weaponry (including SAM-7 rockets) as the result of a sting operation by British security services.

...and it also shows that even if you can negotiate with certain elements within a group, an extreme hard line will still continue.

Hence the reason why negotiation with more regional groups (such as Hammas) may well bear fruit, but the hard line within Al-Qaeda is unlikely to change its goals, much like the Real IRA.



IRA
Hamas
Hezbollah
Tamil Tigers

The Tamil Tigers (or more correctly Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE)) are still very active and in recent attacks, as recent as 8th August 2006, as believed to be some of the most intense to date.

However, a recent escalation of bombings and the May 2006 naval battle suggest that LTTE’s destructive capability has only grown in strength and that peace for the region is nowhere in sight.

Source - http://www.tkb.org/Group.jsp?groupID=3623


Regards

Scaff


BTW - Damn handy site TKB.org
 
Scaff
The Tamil Tigers (or more correctly Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE)) are still very active and in recent attacks, as recent as 8th August 2006, as believed to be some of the most intense to date.



Source - http://www.tkb.org/Group.jsp?groupID=3623


Regards

Scaff


BTW - Damn handy site TKB.org

Oh don't get me wrong, the ports and some towns (where some of my mothers relatives live) have been attacked in recent monthes and the violence certainly has escalated since a few years ago, but I was bringing up the Tigers in reference to how talking with terrorists is possible and can lead to a lesser threat (which can hopefully be sustained)

That is the most obvious problem I can see with starting to talk with terrorists, although examples in the past have shown it doesn't necessarily have to end up going down this road in the future.

_____________________________________

There's no advantage to talking. Much like with the Isreali/Lebanon situation not long ago, anything less then opbliteration of the terroritists results in the non-terrorists winning

And look where that got both sides - Hezbollah is STILL armed even after UN intervention, Lebanonese cities are in ruins, there's still been no release of the Israeli soldiers and the nothern Israeli towns have suffered hundreds of rocket attacks. Please tell me what succeeded there and how we can use it in this fight.

Swift
I'm talking about a people standing up for themselves after they've been sick and tired of going to the funerals of their family members.

I misunderstand where you say
"Also, you didn't expect them to at least try to fight back?"

Who to fight back, the victims of terror?

Swift
I base this on not just that particular argument. But on all of your posts. You seem to have a very leftist viewpoint.

Well, I dunno what to say. The only threads I think I could have gave that opinion on are this and the Israeli-Lebanese ones, and I don't think being against that war automatically labels me as "very leftist".

Swift
How could we talk and not give into at least some or part of their demands? The simple fact is we couldn't. Hence, their acts of terrorism were effective AND succesful. As Danoff stated.

Which I agree with (the effectiveness of terrorism in the middle east). You say giving into part of their demands would be a bad thing, but would it be worth it to stop just a few muslims become radicalised and posing a threat to us in three years time?

Why should that be so difficult? The Iraqis are the ones getting killed every day. They have as much a reason to hate terrorist activity as anyone.

I'm not Iraqi, I'm not even muslim so I don't pretend to know exactly why it is so difficult. I'm just judging this from history, current opinions and what is going on in Iraq, and the wider world now.

danoff
- No negotiation
- No appeasment
- Strengthening of resolve after each attack
- Swift, powerful response

Anything else encourages terrorism.

What encourages terrorism is the terrorist cells, happy to feed young minds with the thoughts that America, Britain and their allies

-won't talk with muslims
-won't listen to what they want in the middle east
-always respond with force against them, sometimes over-excessively
-treat them as terror suspects even if they're innocent.

This isn't my opinions on how we should change the way we approach radicalists (just imagine if we did start letting states be ruled under sharia law, where would it end), I'm stating what actually turns people into terrorists and what really does encourage terrorism.
 
What encourages terrorism is the terrorist cells, happy to feed young minds with the thoughts that America, Britain and their allies

-won't talk with muslims
-won't listen to what they want in the middle east
-always respond with force against them, sometimes over-excessively
-treat them as terror suspects even if they're innocent.

This isn't my opinions on how we should change the way we approach radicalists (just imagine if we did start letting states be ruled under sharia law, where would it end), I'm stating what actually turns people into terrorists and what really does encourage terrorism.

Good points, KSaiyu.
 
Oh don't get me wrong, the ports and some towns (where some of my mothers relatives live) have been attacked in recent monthes and the violence certainly has escalated since a few years ago, but I was bringing up the Tigers in reference to how talking with terrorists is possible and can lead to a lesser threat (which can hopefully be sustained)



_____________________________________



And look where that got both sides - Hezbollah is STILL armed even after UN intervention, Lebanonese cities are in ruins, there's still been no release of the Israeli soldiers and the nothern Israeli towns have suffered hundreds of rocket attacks. Please tell me what succeeded there and how we can use it in this fight.



I misunderstand where you say
"Also, you didn't expect them to at least try to fight back?"

Who to fight back, the victims of terror?



Well, I dunno what to say. The only threads I think I could have gave that opinion on are this and the Israeli-Lebanese ones, and I don't think being against that war automatically labels me as "very leftist".



Which I agree with (the effectiveness of terrorism in the middle east). You say giving into part of their demands would be a bad thing, but would it be worth it to stop just a few muslims become radicalised and posing a threat to us in three years time?



I'm not Iraqi, I'm not even muslim so I don't pretend to know exactly why it is so difficult. I'm just judging this from history, current opinions and what is going on in Iraq, and the wider world now.



What encourages terrorism is the terrorist cells, happy to feed young minds with the thoughts that America, Britain and their allies

-won't talk with muslims
-won't listen to what they want in the middle east
-always respond with force against them, sometimes over-excessively
-treat them as terror suspects even if they're innocent.

This isn't my opinions on how we should change the way we approach radicalists (just imagine if we did start letting states be ruled under sharia law, where would it end), I'm stating what actually turns people into terrorists and what really does encourage terrorism.


The only " talking " that need to be done with Islamic terrorist is the " last rights " over their dead body.

Talking to this particular group is a waste of oxygen ..and comparing them to OTHER groups in an effort to show that TALKING is usefull is sheer idiocy .

They want to convert the world to Islam and kill the Jews in Israel until they destroy Israel, they want the US to convert to islam and be run under islamic law.

How can you compare this group of nutters to any other ?

When you do try to make a comparision you must get beyond the word terrorist , because once you pass that point there is NO basis for comparision and ergo sum NO point in arguing for TALKS .

The only words they want to hear from us is " WE SUBMIT " .

Accept that fact .
 
And look where that got both sides - Hezbollah is STILL armed even after UN intervention, Lebanonese cities are in ruins, there's still been no release of the Israeli soldiers and the nothern Israeli towns have suffered hundreds of rocket attacks. Please tell me what succeeded there and how we can use it in this fight.

I'm sorry, I worded that wrong. I meant to say "...anything less then obliteration of the terrorists results in the TERRORISTS winning"

Nothing succeeded because Israel was forced to stop because the world made them wuss out. Period.

I misunderstand where you say
"Also, you didn't expect them to at least try to fight back?"

Who to fight back, the victims of terror?

Of course the terrorists would try to fight back at least somewhat. But that doesn't mean we should give into what they want.

Well, I dunno what to say. The only threads I think I could have gave that opinion on are this and the Israeli-Lebanese ones, and I don't think being against that war automatically labels me as "very leftist".

It's not that your against war. I'm against war in the general sense. But you generally refuse to acknowledge any justification for conflict. That's rather leftist.

Which I agree with (the effectiveness of terrorism in the middle east). You say giving into part of their demands would be a bad thing, but would it be worth it to stop just a few muslims become radicalised and posing a threat to us in three years time?

And what's to stop them from doing more terrorists actions 3 years later to get a little more from us? It's a cycle that will continue unless we make terrorism as ineffective as possible.
 
What encourages terrorism is the terrorist cells, happy to feed young minds with the thoughts that America, Britain and their allies

-won't talk with muslims
-won't listen to what they want in the middle east
-always respond with force against them, sometimes over-excessively
-treat them as terror suspects even if they're innocent.

This isn't my opinions on how we should change the way we approach radicalists (just imagine if we did start letting states be ruled under sharia law, where would it end), I'm stating what actually turns people into terrorists and what really does encourage terrorism.

You know that's not true. This is a religious war above all else.
 
You know that's not true. This is a religious war above all else.

Your wrong there too danoff. The war on terror is an ideological war, Just like the cold war was. For it to be a religious war, there would have to be another faith involved. As far as I am aware, there is no other faith involoved - though the Pope has done a good job of putting Catholicism in the firing line. :sly:

The trouble with ideological wars is that they never truly go away. As long as the idea remains, so to will the threat. Communism fell, but there is still Communism. The same will apply for terrorism. We may destroy Al-Qaeda, but the threat of terrorism will always be with us, and it will strike again when we least expect it. The next big attack could be weeks, months, or years away, but when it happens, we will not be able to stop it.

To remove the threat totally, every radical muslim would have to agree to a complete 'brain-wipe', and we would then have to destroy every piece of literature ever written relating to Jihad or radical extremism. Apart from the obvious reasons why it would not be possible, its impractical. Instead of destroying and imposing, we should be creating and empowering. When I say empowering, I don't necessarily mean through the ballot box either. Wealth can empower, as can education. 'Empty vessels make the most noise' is a popular phrase. Now, think of it another way. 'People who have nothing are more likely to rise in revolt'. History has show us that it is the case. Also, history has shown us that ulitimately, the 'people' always win.

If the war on terror is to achieve its goals, I feel a major rethink of the long term strategy is needed. If that Involves a little dialog, then so be it. Besides, who knows if our governments have not already started some form of dialog with the terrorists? If they had, do you think they would tell us? The war on terror might be common knowledge, but that does not mean the tactics are.
 
Your wrong there too danoff. The war on terror is an ideological war, Just like the cold war was. For it to be a religious war, there would have to be another faith involved.

Only one side has to be fighting for religion to make it a religious war.

mag
the Pope has done a good job of putting Catholicism in the firing line.

Yea, when he quotes people he should be aware that it will be taken completely out of context.

mag
If the war on terror is to achieve its goals, I feel a major rethink of the long term strategy is needed. If that Involves a little dialog, then so be it.

If we open a dialogue, the war on terror has already forfeit it's goals.
 
As far as I am aware, there is no other faith involoved - though the Pope has done a good job of putting Catholicism in the firing line. :sly:

Now this is the problem. Someone says anything about the Muslim faith and they incur a murderous wrath. Say something about Jesus, Buddha, Genesh and people laugh. Amazing how there is that double standard only with Muslims. What makes them so immune to critique and comic sarcasm?
 
Your wrong there too danoff. The war on terror is an ideological war, Just like the cold war was. For it to be a religious war, there would have to be another faith involved. As far as I am aware, there is no other faith involoved - though the Pope has done a good job of putting Catholicism in the firing line. :sly:

The trouble with ideological wars is that they never truly go away. As long as the idea remains, so to will the threat. Communism fell, but there is still Communism. The same will apply for terrorism. We may destroy Al-Qaeda, but the threat of terrorism will always be with us, and it will strike again when we least expect it. The next big attack could be weeks, months, or years away, but when it happens, we will not be able to stop it.

To remove the threat totally, every radical muslim would have to agree to a complete 'brain-wipe', and we would then have to destroy every piece of literature ever written relating to Jihad or radical extremism. Apart from the obvious reasons why it would not be possible, its impractical. Instead of destroying and imposing, we should be creating and empowering. When I say empowering, I don't necessarily mean through the ballot box either. Wealth can empower, as can education. 'Empty vessels make the most noise' is a popular phrase. Now, think of it another way. 'People who have nothing are more likely to rise in revolt'. History has show us that it is the case. Also, history has shown us that ulitimately, the 'people' always win.

If the war on terror is to achieve its goals, I feel a major rethink of the long term strategy is needed. If that Involves a little dialog, then so be it. Besides, who knows if our governments have not already started some form of dialog with the terrorists? If they had, do you think they would tell us? The war on terror might be common knowledge, but that does not mean the tactics are.

I agree, magburner. Their war is both ideological and religious, in my opinion.

They want to spread Islam, but they also want to stop the spread of western culture into their countries.. they want the west to stay out of their land so they can destroy Israel.
 
They want to spread Islam, but they also want to stop the spread of western culture into their countries.

They want to stop the spread of wester religions into their culture.

KTB
they want the west to stay out of their land so they can destroy Israel.

Because the Israelis are jewish.
 
So, danoff, the only reason that the Islamic fundamentalists are carrying out terrorist acts stems from religious differences?

Uh, yeah. You didn't realize that?

The only reason terrorists hate the USA so much is that we're allies with Israel(and we should be). If it wasn't for that, I seriously doubt 9/11 would have ever happened.
 
Uh, yeah. You didn't realize that?

The only reason terrorists hate the USA so much is that we're allies with Israel(and we should be). If it wasn't for that, I seriously doubt 9/11 would have ever happened.

I will agree with you that 9-11 probably wouldn't have happened without our support of Israel. Which, I think that country is capable of sustaining itself now, n'est pas? Their military far surpasses the military of any Palestinian or Muslim country surrounding it...

Anyway...

We are infidels because of our culture, also. Western culture is disgusting to many Arabs. I doubt that our differences with Islam are the only reasons for those who hate us to hate us. A lot of things can be traced back to religion... but not all, necessarily...
 
Because our culture clashes with their religious beliefs...

Infidel: noun, a person who does not accept a particular faith

Okay, I admit I probably used 'infidel' too loosely... however my point still stands.

The first hit on google explains my point well

Highlights From The Article
Rather, they say, a mood of resentment toward America and its behavior around the world has become so commonplace in their countries that it was bound to breed hostility, and even hatred.

And the buttons that Mr. bin Laden pushes in his statements and interviews - the injustice done to the Palestinians, the cruelty of continued sanctions against Iraq, the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia, the repressive and corrupt nature of US-backed Gulf governments - win a good deal of popular sympathy.

The resentment of the US has spread through societies demoralized by their recent history. In few of the world's 50 or so Muslim countries have governments offered their citizens either prosperity or democracy. Arab nations have lost three wars against their arch-foe - and America's closest ally - Israel. A sense of failure and injustice is rising in the throats of millions.
Three weeks ago, a leading Arabic newspaper, Al-Hayat, published a poem on its front page. A long lament about the plight of the Arabs, addressed to a dead Syrian poet, it ended:

"Children are dying, but no one makes a move.
Houses are demolished, but no one makes a move.
Holy places are desecrated, but no one makes a move....
I am fed up with life in the world of mortals.
Find me a hole near you. For a life of dignity is in those holes."

It sounds as if it could have been written by a desperate and hopeless man, driven by frustration to seek death, perhaps martyrdom. A young Palestinian refugee planning a suicide bomb attack, maybe. In fact, it was written by the Saudi Arabian ambassador to London, a member of one of the wealthiest and most influential families in the kingdom that is Washington's closest Arab ally.
Against the background of that humiliated mood, America's unchallenged military, economic, and cultural might be seen as an affront even if its policies in the Middle East were neutral. And nobody voices that view.

As you can see, not all of this is religious tension. It can play a part, it can be involved with other factors, possibly even all... but is certainly NOT the ONLY root cause of Arabian hatred to the west. I don't know how you can seriously be making that claim.

More Highlights:

Highlights From The Article
What transformed him and his comrades-in-arms from anti-Soviet to anti-American militants, he says, was the way Washington abandoned them at the end of the war in Afghanistan, and sought to disarm and disperse them.

"It was when the Americans took the knife out of the Russians and stabbed it in our back, it's as simple as that," says Abu Hamza. "It was a natural turn, not a theoretical one.

"In the meantime, they were bombarding Iraq and occupying the [Arabian] peninsula," he says, referring to the US troops stationed in Saudi Arabia after the Gulf War, "and then with the witch-hunt against the mujahideen, all of it came together, that was a full-scale war, it was very clear."

Abu Hamza would rather see Islamic militants fight corrupt or secular Arab governments before they take on America (indeed, the Yemeni government has sought his extradition from Britain for plotting to overthrow the government in Sana). But he is in no doubt that the American government brought the events of Sept. 11 on its own head.

I see nothing about Islam or religion in these two examples. Sure, you could twist and purport to include it in there somehow... but it's not the overall focus of these two examples.
 
I see nothing about Islam or religion in these two examples. Sure, you could twist and purport to include it in there somehow... but it's not the overall focus of these two examples.

Why did either of those conflicts start? Faith problems.

Sure those twe examples don't have direct religious ties. But the amount of people that you could motivate with that is very small. The vast majority of the militants against Israel and western countries, such as the ones that were involved with 9/11 and the recently foiled airline plan, are faith based. As proven by the insane murder of Dutch people after that cartoon and the shooting of a nun following the Pope's quote.
 
Why did either of those conflicts start? Faith problems.

Sure those twe examples don't have direct religious ties. But the amount of people that you could motivate with that is very small. The vast majority of the militants against Israel and western countries, such as the ones that were involved with 9/11 and the recently foiled airline plan, are faith based. As proven by the insane murder of Dutch people after that cartoon and the shooting of a nun following the Pope's quote.

The Afghan Russian conflict started because of a conflict in faith?

I agree that the majority of Arabs that hate us do so because we are infidels, as in the definition danoff provided.

But saying that religion is the only cause for their hatred is simply ignorant and one-sided, in my opinion. You cannot prove that point.
 
But saying that religion is the only cause for their hatred is simply ignorant and one-sided, in my opinion. You cannot prove that point.

Why do that arabs fight Israel? Faith. Period.

Why do the terrorists fight the USA? We back Israel. They are against all jews so, Faith.

I honestly don't know much about the afgan-russian conflict so I'll take that back. But honestly, that doesn't effect the current conflict with arab terrorists.
 
But saying that religion is the only cause for their hatred is simply ignorant and one-sided, in my opinion. You cannot prove that point.

Suicide bombers aren't blowing themselves up for political and cultural differences. They're blowing themselves up because their religion tells them it is what God wants them to do.

Yes, arabs are pissed at us for a large number of reasons. But religion is the reason for terrorism.
 
Yes, arabs are pissed at us for a large number of reasons. But religion is the reason for terrorism.

Exactly, and we could actually deal with them diplomatically I think. But NOT with the terrorists.
 
Why do that arabs fight Israel? Faith. Period.

Why do the terrorists fight the USA? We back Israel. They are against all jews so, Faith.

I honestly don't know much about the afgan-russian conflict so I'll take that back. But honestly, that doesn't effect the current conflict with arab terrorists.

The Muslim world doesn't hate Israel just because of faith differences... they also hate Israel because they have been too punitive in their wars against the Palestinians, and cruel in their attacks on poor Palestinians (in their eyes). Yes, those wars started because of religious hatred, but if you ask Arabs they will tell you that they hate Israel also for it's atrocities towards them during these wars. That is an element that stands alone on it's own. And by extension, since we back Israel miltarily and politically, they f'ing hate us too.

Suicide bombers aren't blowing themselves up for political and cultural differences. They're blowing themselves up because their religion tells them it is what God wants them to do.

Yes, arabs are pissed at us for a large number of reasons. But religion is the reason for terrorism.

Religion is the major reason for terrorism, but I think it is undeniable that other factors are contributing to why they hate us. Surely the 'large number of reasons' are reason enough to launch airplanes into our buildings.

And not all terrorism involves a Muslim losing his/her life. I believe there are plenty of acts of terrorism that did not involve a Muslim dying in the process... thus possibly negating the demand by Allah to kill infidels and thus completely negating the 72 virgin incentive to blow yourself up.

Doesn't human rights come into play with all of this? We are trying to impose democracy and human rights for all of them. Now it can be argued that the Koran itself treats women as subordinates, but this article is a bit of a surprise in that regard. Also http://www.submission.org/noha.html seems to argue that women under Islam are equal; although the bias is obvious as it is apparently written by a Muslim. Not that I am advocating that 100% women are equal under Islamic law, but what I *am* saying is that the laws of the Muslim countries themselves are what oppress women. Kind of how like the Pharisees in ancient Israel added hundreds of laws that weren't Godly precepts...

Muslim governments seem to go nuts at the mention of human rights. And I don't think it is highly based on Islam there. Sure, you can use the Koran to find examples of how women are not treated fairly... but the same judgement can be passed on the Bible when used out of context.
 
The Muslim world doesn't hate Israel just because of faith differences... they also hate Israel because they have been too punitive in their wars against the Palestinians, and cruel in their attacks on poor Palestinians (in their eyes). Yes, those wars started because of religious hatred, but if you ask Arabs they will tell you that they hate Israel also for it's atrocities towards them during these wars. That is an element that stands alone on it's own. And by extension, since we back Israel miltarily and politically, they f'ing hate us too.


Look. Here it is. They are cousins. Hebrew's the children of Issac, Arabs the children of Ishmael. They BOTH claim the land promised to abraham their father. All of the conflict stems from that. Period. (I say that a lot don't I. :) )
 
Look. Here it is. They are cousins. Hebrew's the children of Issac, Arabs the children of Ishmael. They BOTH claim the land promised to abraham their father. All of the conflict stems from that. Period. (I say that a lot don't I. :) )

Okay, so you have just proven sibling rivalry to me?

Shared claims of the holy land is the ORIGINAL reason that started everything.. or one of the original ones anyway... but certainly not the FINAL. There is not one all-encompassing word here that will cover all of why terrorist Muslims hate America and the western world. And if there is... it is not religion.
 
Okay, so you have just proven sibling rivalry to me?

No, I've proven that the Hebrews/Jews are one line and the Arabs/muslims are another line of Abraham that claim the same land. All of the conflict between hebrews and arabs comes from that. All the terrorists acts, military actions and etc from one people to the other are a result of this "sibling rivalry".
 
No, I've proven that the Hebrews/Jews are one line and the Arabs/muslims are another line of Abraham that claim the same land. All of the conflict between hebrews and arabs comes from that. All the terrorists acts, military actions and etc from one people to the other are a result of this "sibling rivalry".

Oh so if this is now all because of sibling rivalry, is religion inherent in that? Not ALL Arabs are practicing Muslims, right? Surely some of the atheist Arabians hate Israel for reasons other than the Jews being infidel cousins that dare to claim Abraham as their father and dare to claim Jerusalem as their holy city.

And you brought up something else, too. You just furthered my point even more.

Land.

What are most wars fought over when it isn't religious differences?

Land or food man!

Dontcha think the Arabs are pissed for Israel 'taking' their land from them? That has nothing with Islam inherent in it. Aside from the 'holy land' thing, Muslims are angry simply because Israel is occupying their land full of history... and that is a reason alone to wage a war against Israel!

Saying that religion is the only cause of Muslim hatred to the Jews and Americans and the rest of the west is simply one-dimensional. The other factors are enough to anger the Arab world enough to commit acts of terrorism. Religion just propels them to do it for the 'right reason'.
 
I was reading these posts and, as a Brazilian, my country is not directly inserted into these issues. But the entire world is always watching these events.

But i see that the majority of people here is from United States. You, as americans, can imagine, seriously, what would a middle-east person say here, reading all of these comments?

I mean. For several years, the image that we have (i speak for friends in several countries) is that the "Shoot First, Ask Later" is your national anthem. Dirty Harry style. "Kill the communists"", and whatsoever.

I am sure you, nationalists (no problem with that) always want to believe what is right is your view. Not others'. I guess what is the "truth" concept to the Iraquians, the Syrians, Iranians, Pakistanese, etc.

Sure i don't need to explain this, but I am not defending ANY type of violent act. Terrorism is horrible, decapitating people too. Also throwing a pair of atomic bombs into 100000+ people.

I just think it is everyone`s fault. No one is hero.
 
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