Al Qaeda - A time to talk?

[Swift]

Oh so if this is now all because of sibling rivalry, is religion inherent in that? Not ALL Arabs are practicing Muslims, right? Surely some of the atheist Arabians hate Israel for reasons other than the Jews being infidel cousins that dare to claim Abraham as their father and dare to claim Jerusalem as their holy city.

And you brought up something else, too. You just furthered my point even more.

Land.

What are most wars fought over when it isn't religious differences?

Land or food man!

Dontcha think the Arabs are pissed for Israel 'taking' their land from them? That has nothing with Islam inherent in it. Aside from the 'holy land' thing, Muslims are angry simply because Israel is occupying their land full of history... and that is a reason alone to wage a war against Israel!

I knew you would go there.

It was Israel's land LONG before it was Arab. The bible and history confirm that.

Why won't you simply admit that terrorism is faith based. You can reason with a militant that doesn't like America because of something we did a while ago. There is no reasoning with someone that thinks you simply shouldn't exist.

 

[Matt R]

The United States, Britain, France, Germany, Russia and China have offered Tehran economic and political incentives if it suspends uranium enrichment, which the West believes is part of a nuclear weapons programme.

Incentive
Main Entry: bribe
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: payoff
Synonyms: allurement, bait, blackmail, boodle, buyoff, compensation, contract, corrupt money, corrupting gift, enticement, envelope*, fee, fringe benefit, gift, goody*, graft, gratuity, gravy*, grease*, hush money*, ice*, incentive, inducement, influence peddling, kickback, lagniappe, lure, payola*, perk*, perquisite, present, price, protection*, remuneration, reward, sop*, sweetener*, sweetening*, take, tip

I just thought this was funny. Sort of like a negotiation don't ya think?

 

[Danoff]

Religion is the major reason for terrorism

OK, so there's nothing to argue about then right?

And not all terrorism involves a Muslim losing his/her life. I believe there are plenty of acts of terrorism that did not involve a Muslim dying in the process... thus possibly negating the demand by Allah to kill infidels and thus completely negating the 72 virgin incentive to blow yourself up.

It most certainly does not. You still get 72 virgins when you die, you just don't die right away.

 

[kennythebomb]

I was reading these posts and, as a Brazilian, my country is not directly inserted into these issues. But the entire world is always watching these events.

But i see that the majority of people here is from United States. You, as americans, can imagine, seriously, what would a middle-east person say here, reading all of these comments?

I mean. For several years, the image that we have (i speak for friends in several countries) is that the "Shoot First, Ask Later" is your national anthem. Dirty Harry style. "Kill the communists"", and whatsoever.

I am sure you, nationalists (no problem with that) always want to believe what is right is your view. Not others'. I guess what is the "truth" concept to the Iraquians, the Syrians, Iranians, Pakistanese, etc.

Sure i don't need to explain this, but I am not defending ANY type of violent act. Terrorism is horrible, decapitating people too. Also throwing a pair of atomic bombs into 100000+ people.

I just think it is everyone`s fault. No one is hero.

Dimitrov, if you were to try to understand and guess the reasons for their hostility, what would it be?

I am not saying my country is without blame. The US has it's share of blunders and horrible acts of war and even worse foreign policy sometimes.

Ironically, I heard that the reason Bush declared war on Iraq was because So Damn Insane looked at Bush's horse and laughed funny.

"I don't think it's nice, you laughin'. You see, my mule don't like people laughing."

 

[Swift]

Religion is the major reason for terrorism

I must have missed this. How can you continue to argue after you make this admission?

 

[kennythebomb]

It was Israel's land LONG before it was Arab. The bible and history confirm that.

Why won't you simply admit that terrorism is faith based. You can reason with a militant that doesn't like America because of something we did a while ago. There is no reasoning with someone that thinks you simply shouldn't exist.

No ****.

From the POV of the Palestinians, however; they have the right to claim the land. I am trying my best to debate this from the POV of what I think a Muslim living in the middle east would think.

There is no reasoning with them because religion is their major but not only reason for hating us. My entire agenda here is to strike down your claims that religion is the only reason for terrorism against us.

Incentive
Main Entry: bribe
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: payoff
Synonyms: allurement, bait, blackmail, boodle, buyoff, compensation, contract, corrupt money, corrupting gift, enticement, envelope*, fee, fringe benefit, gift, goody*, graft, gratuity, gravy*, grease*, hush money*, ice*, incentive, inducement, influence peddling, kickback, lagniappe, lure, payola*, perk*, perquisite, present, price, protection*, remuneration, reward, sop*, sweetener*, sweetening*, take, tip

I just thought this was funny. Sort of like a negotiation don't ya think?

Good find, jjacks I didn't catch that when I read the article. I wonder what incentives were offered?

OK, so there's nothing to argue about then right?



It most certainly does not. You still get 72 virgins when you die, you just don't die right away.

Oh yes there is. Religious differences are not the only cause for terrorist acts towards the west. And they would happen independent of religion; albeit not nearly so much. Your average Arab would only hate us, instead of wanting to kill us. However the line is very finely drawn between these people from the threshold of hating to wanting to kill.

What? Who still gets 72 virgins when they die.. your average Muslim who dies of natural causes? Huh?

 

[Matt R]

Good find, jjacks I didn't catch that when I read the article. I wonder what incentives were offered?

If you scratch our back, we'll buy you a premium membership at the worlds most luxurious day spa until the day you die. Also, when you die, we'll set up your whole family for life.

 

[Swift]

No ****.

From the POV of the Palestinians, however; they have the right to claim the land. I am trying my best to debate this from the POV of what I think a Muslim living in the middle east would think.

There is no reasoning with them because religion is their major but not only reason for hating us. My entire agenda here is to strike down your claims that religion is the only reason for terrorism against us.

But it's what starts and spurns it. Were it not for the religous factor, terrorism as we know it simply would not exist. It would be more like what happened with the IRA. Very focused on one particular objective. But with the religious factor, it gains a global appeal for muslims to act a certain way. Of course all muslims are not terrorists. But the terrorists are muslims. So all this debate is generally useless.

 

[Danoff]

You, as americans, can imagine, seriously, what would a middle-east person say here, reading all of these comments?

Well I imagine they would say that the United States is an evil country responsible for genocide, filled with infidels. I figure they'd take issue with the fact that we let our women show their ankles and offer human rights and a representative government. They'd probably think that Israel orchestrated 9/11 to get America to support them in the region...

Death to America!!!.... and all that crap.

It depends on which middle eastern person you talk to. Talk to a member of Hamas or Hezbollah or Al-Qaeda and you'll get that kinds of response. Talk to an Iraqi who was liberated and you might hear that America is great. Or you might hear that things were better under Saddam and that they miss him and wish that he was back to oppress them. You might hear that they don't like the option to vote for their representatives, that they don't believe in democracy or human rights. Blah blah blah.

Of course, you don't hear from these people. Especially not on a website centered around a video game they don't play about cars they don't have access to.

I mean. For several years, the image that we have (i speak for friends in several countries) is that the "Shoot First, Ask Later" is your national anthem. Dirty Harry style. "Kill the communists"", and whatsoever.

You got that impression because we announced months in advance that we'd invade Iraq unless Saddam complied with UN resolutions? Was it the advanced warning that we gave (thereby putting our troops at greater risk) that gave you that impression? Or perhaps it was the fact that we didn't go kill the communists...

I am sure you, nationalists (no problem with that) always want to believe what is right is your view. Not others'.

America does a lot of things wrong. But we're pretty good about foreign policy.

Sure i don't need to explain this, but I am not defending ANY type of violent act. Terrorism is horrible, decapitating people too. Also throwing a pair of atomic bombs into 100000+ people.

Here we go. Back to WWII. Those bombs worked wonders didn't they?

I just think it is everyone`s fault. No one is hero.

Oh I see. It's everyone's fault that Saddam invaded Kuwait right? It's everyone's fault that Saddam then refused to comply with the UN resolutions that allowed him to keep his country at the time. It's everyone's fault that terrorists killed thousands of Americans a few years ago....

 

[Danoff]

Oh yes there is. Religious differences are not the only cause for terrorist acts towards the west. And they would happen independent of religion; albeit not nearly so much.

How much, exactly? Because the terrorism I've seen (especially against the US) is motivated by religion.

Your average Arab would only hate us, instead of wanting to kill us.

Without religion as a motivator? I doubt it. Religion is the reason they hate our culture. Take that away and you've got a whole lot less reason.

What? Who still gets 72 virgins when they die.. your average Muslim who dies of natural causes? Huh?

Terrorists. Even if they don't die in the act.

 

[kennythebomb]

But it's what starts and spurns it. Were it not for the religous factor, terrorism as we know it simply would not exist. It would be more like what happened with the IRA. Very focused on one particular objective. But with the religious factor, it gains a global appeal for muslims to act a certain way. Of course all muslims are not terrorists. But the terrorists are muslims. So all this debate is generally useless.

I love Wikipedia!

Were it not for the religous factor, terrorism as we know it simply would not exist.

Hmm...

(The IRA) sought to end Northern Ireland's status within the United Kingdom and bring about a United Ireland by the use of violence. Since its emergence in 1969, its stated aim has been the overthrow of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and their replacement by sovereign socialist all-island Irish state.

Obviously religion was another large factor in why the IRA wanted the split, but not the main focus. In how I understand the situation, the IRA (a terrorist organization) did what it did because apparently it wanted it's own sovereign socialist all-island Irish state.

So all this debate is generally useless.

What else would I do when I am not working?

 

[Swift]

I love Wikipedia!



Hmm...



Obviously religion was another large factor in why the IRA wanted the split, but not the main focus. In how I understand the situation, the IRA (a terrorist organization) did what it did because apparently it wanted it's own sovereign socialist all-island Irish state.


What else would I do when I am not working?

hmm....

Well, I'm not saying the IRA stuff isn't serious, because it is. INfact it's very serious. But it doesn't threaten on a global scale like this islamic terrorists. Nobody is safe, not even their own people. This is the difference between the IRA and the Muslim terrorists. One is looking for it's own country to be changed(and going about it the WRONG way) the other is looking to kill anyone not with the same mindset as them. That's a pretty big difference.

 

[kennythebomb]

How much, exactly? Because the terrorism I've seen (especially against the US) is motivated by religion.

I can't say with any certainty, because religion has always been infused into their reasons for terrorism. But like I keep stressing... religion is not the only determing factor for why they carry out terrorist acts!

Without religion as a motivator? I doubt it. Religion is the reason they hate our culture. Take that away and you've got a whole lot less reason.

Religion is not the only reason for why they hate us, and if you can't see that by what I've already said then I'm not going to even bother.

Terrorists. Even if they don't die in the act.

That's a new one to me. I've never heard that simply becoming a terrorist guarantees you 72 virgins in heaven. Can you show me where you heard this? I find that really fascinating.

This is the difference between the IRA and the Muslim terrorists. One is looking for it's own country to be changed(and going about it the WRONG way) the other is looking to kill anyone not with the same mindset as them. That's a pretty big difference.

So it is entirely possible, then, for a terrorist organization to not be completely motivated by religious fervor? Doesn't that mean that it is at least possible that the Muslim terrorists have more than one blanket reason for attacking us?

And the west does not share the same mindset with the Muslim terrorists on many issues, not just religious ideals...

 

[Matt R]

72 virgins in heaven? Strap me with a bomb and call me a terrorist!

 

[Swift]

Religion is not the only reason for why they hate us, and if you can't see that by what I've already said then I'm not going to even bother.

It doesn't matter if it's the "only" reason. It's THE reason that they get started with acts of terrorism. They then throw other stuff on top of it.

So it is entirely possible, then, for a terrorist organization to not be completely motivated by religious fervor? Doesn't that mean that it is at least possible that the Muslim terrorists have more than one blanket reason for attacking us?

And the west does not share the same mindset with the Muslim terrorists on many issues, not just religious ideals...

I don't care about the muslims reasons. I really don't. NOt as far as terrorism goes.

Religion IS THE MAIN REASON. Everthing else, like toppings on a burger, is just fluff and extra stuff. So no matter how you try to say they have other reasons, it will always come back to jews vs muslims.

 

[kennythebomb]

It doesn't matter if it's the "only" reason. It's THE reason that they get started with acts of terrorism. They then throw other stuff on top of it.

I don't care about the muslims reasons. I really don't. NOt as far as terrorism goes.

Religion IS THE MAIN REASON. Everthing else, like toppings on a burger, is just fluff and extra stuff. So no matter how you try to say they have other reasons, it will always come back to jews vs muslims.

Thank you!!

It was never in question that religion is the main reason.

I just wanted you or danoff to admit that there are other, quasi-independent reasons for why terrorist Muslims hate us and commit terrorist acts towards us.

72 virgins in heaven? Strap me with a bomb and call me a terrorist!

Well in that case you die anyway. I'm truly fascinating by the notion that simply becoming a terrorist secures for you 72 virgins in heaven. With that mentality all you have to do is throw a grenade at an embassy in the name of Allah, and you are set for life... after death.

 

[Danoff]

I can't say with any certainty, because religion has always been infused into their reasons for terrorism. But like I keep stressing... religion is not the only determing factor for why they carry out terrorist acts!

Like I keep stressing, the other stuff wouldn't matter without religion.

Religion is not the only reason for why they hate us, and if you can't see that by what I've already said then I'm not going to even bother.

I've already agreed with that, so you don't have to bother.

That's a new one to me. I've never heard that simply becoming a terrorist guarantees you 72 virgins in heaven. Can you show me where you heard this? I find that really fascinating.

Not "becoming a terrorist", but killing infidels is what gets you rewarded in heaven.

So it is entirely possible, then, for a terrorist organization to not be completely motivated by religious fervor? Doesn't that mean that it is at least possible that the Muslim terrorists have more than one blanket reason for attacking us?

Yes, the Muslims have more than one blanket reason for attacking us. But they do have a religious blanket reason that if you yank out from under the rest the whole thing falls apart.

You've already admitted that religion is the main reason for terrorism. So, I don't know why we're still having this discussion.

 

[Swift]

Thank you!!

It was never in question that religion is the main reason.

I just wanted you or danoff to admit that there are other, quasi-independent reasons for why terrorist Muslims hate us and commit terrorist acts towards us.

KTB, you are SO missing the point. Danoff hit it a bit earlier. But without the religion part, there is no real foundation for their actions. Much like without the Bill of rights, our individual rights in this nation have no foundation. Sure, you can build on them, but without those 10 amendments, we'd all be without rights.

Well in that case you die anyway. I'm truly fascinating by the notion that simply becoming a terrorist secures for you 72 virgins in heaven. With that mentality all you have to do is throw a grenade at an embassy in the name of Allah, and you are set for life... after death.

If you perform a terrorist act or die in a terrorist act then when you go to heaven you get all that stuff you talked about. As I understand it...

 

[Danoff]

If you perform a terrorist act or die in a terrorist act then when you go to heaven you get all that stuff you talked about. As I understand it...

I'm fuzzy on the whole thing too because I haven't been to terrorist training camp. But it's my understanding that killing the infidels in service of Allah allows you to go to heaven. Maybe you don't get all 72 virgins if you don't die in the process, maybe you only get like 2 or 3. I don't know what the actual numbers are but I know that death-to-infidels whether or not you are killed is the main objective.

 

[kennythebomb]

Like I keep stressing, the other stuff wouldn't matter without religion.

I've already agreed with that, so you don't have to bother.

Not "becoming a terrorist", but killing infidels is what gets you rewarded in heaven.

Yes, the Muslims have more than one blanket reason for attacking us. But they do have a religious blanket reason that if you yank out from under the rest the whole thing falls apart.

You've already admitted that religion is the main reason for terrorism. So, I don't know why we're still having this discussion.

This post is what got me going.

That post by Swift is what triggered this discussion. Now Swift has thought otherwise, it seems. And also you appear to agree in some fashion, so I'm done unless someone keeps it going.

Although I must say that I think something like 9-11 would be entirely possible even if they didn't hate us for being infidels. Our support of Israel, who has bombarded the Palestinians cruelly and stolen their land (in their view) is reason enough to lash out at us. Remember that the west is the reason why Israel exists after WWII.

Thanks for the clarification on why they receive 72 virgins.

I'm fuzzy on the whole thing too because I haven't been to terrorist training camp.

Wow, I thought I was the only one who didn't get the invitation in the mail. I was offended but now I know that I wasn't the only one to not get invited to the exclusive camp.

 

[Swift]

This post is what got me going.

That post by Swift is what triggered this discussion. Now Swift has thought otherwise, it seems. And also you appear to agree in some fashion, so I'm done unless someone keeps it going.

Although I must say that I think something like 9-11 would be entirely possible even if they didn't hate us for being infidels. Our support of Israel, who has bombarded the Palestinians cruelly and stolen their land (in their view) is reason enough to lash out at us. Remember that the west is the reason why Israel exists after WWII.

Uh, yeah. You didn't realize that?

The only reason terrorists hate the USA so much is that we're allies with Israel(and we should be). If it wasn't for that, I seriously doubt 9/11 would have ever happened.

I don't think otherwise at all. I still hold true what I said in that post. But even your short argument in this post is about religion. YOu specified our support of Israel being a major factor in their attacks on us. That's as religously based as you can get.

Infact, now that I put the posts together...you say almost the exact same thing!

 

[kennythebomb]

I don't think otherwise at all. I still hold true what I said in that post. But even your short argument in this post is about religion. YOu specified our support of Israel being a major factor in their attacks on us. That's as religously based as you can get.

Infact, now that I put the posts together...you say almost the exact same thing!

Truly, the difference is small.

What I am really trying to say here is that I think terrorist Muslims would still desire to bomb us even without religion to incite them. Certainly the barrier between hatred and killing is removed with their religious convictions, and it is the major reason why organizations like Al Queda thrive. But apart from religion, it still can happen. Their way of life is fundamentally opposed to ours in terms of many other things. And the fact that we support a nation that is constantly at war with these nations that harbor terrorists means that they will go after us, just for supporting a nation that took their land. Try to see it from a viewpoint of what happened historically, instead of the religious motivations involved throughout. The same actions that have occured are enough to direct Arabian anger towards us, without any religious fundamentalism as a front.

 

[Swift]

Truly, the difference is small.

What I am really trying to say here is that I think terrorist Muslims would still desire to bomb us even without religion to incite them. Certainly the barrier between hatred and killing is removed with their religious convictions, and it is the major reason why organizations like Al Queda thrive. But apart from religion, it still can happen. Their way of life is fundamentally opposed to ours in terms of many other things. And the fact that we support a nation that is constantly at war with these nations that harbor terrorists means that they will go after us, just for supporting a nation that took their land. Try to see it from a viewpoint of what happened historically, instead of the religious motivations involved throughout. The same actions that have occured are enough to direct Arabian anger towards us, without any religious fundamentalism as a front.

This is going to sound cold, but I don't care. REally, I don't. I don't care in the slightest what some moron that is willing to blow up his own people thinks about our foreign policy.

I do care however what people that are willing to talk think about how our policy effects their country as it's a very fair thing to do. More then fair actually. But if they try to use terrorism to bring me to the negotiating table then forget it.

 

[Danoff]

Truly, the difference is small.

I agree, but there does seem to be a difference.

What I am really trying to say here is that I think terrorist Muslims would still desire to bomb us even without religion to incite them.

Can you find me an example of a non-religiously motivated terrorist? You might find one, but I'll be it'll be hard.

Their way of life is fundamentally opposed to ours in terms of many other things.

The vast majority of the differences in culture are religious.

And the fact that we support a nation that is constantly at war with these nations that harbor terrorists means that they will go after us, just for supporting a nation that took their land.

Their war with Israel is a holy war pure and simple. If the Israelis weren't jewish, and the arabs weren't muslim, I doubt there would be a conflict.

Try to see it from a viewpoint of what happened historically, instead of the religious motivations involved throughout.

I see historical religious motivations.

 

[kennythebomb]

This is going to sound cold, but I don't care. REally, I don't. I don't care in the slightest what some moron that is willing to blow up his own people thinks about our foreign policy.

I do care however what people that are willing to talk think about how our policy effects their country as it's a very fair thing to do. More then fair actually. But if they try to use terrorism to bring me to the negotiating table then forget it.

And just like how danoff pointed out earlier (allow me to paraphrase) when these people commit terrorist acts with religion as a major factor (but not the only ) then there is no reasoning with them.

 

[Swift]

And just like how danoff pointed out earlier (allow me to paraphrase) when these people commit terrorist acts with religion as a major factor (but not the only ) then there is no reasoning with them.

There it is!

 

[kennythebomb]

Can you find me an example of a non-religiously motivated terrorist? You might find one, but I'll be it'll be hard.

Does the definition of terrorism cite that a terrorist has to be religiously motivated? Absolutely not.

I already did. Did you read about the man who was an anti-Russia militant and then was so angered by the US reaction at the end of that conflict that he switched 'sides'? The catalyst was our foreign policy and intentions in that conflict, as perceived by him... NOT our religious views.

 

[Danoff]

Does the definition of terrorism cite that a terrorist has to be religiously motivated? Absolutely not.

Nope, but the two go hand-in-hand.

I already did. Did you read about the man who was an anti-Russia militant and then was so angered by the US reaction at the end of that conflict that he switched 'sides'? The catalyst was our foreign policy and intentions in that conflict, as perceived by him... NOT our religious views.

Ok, that's 1. (He was a terrorist right? I mean, he did go blow people up didn't he?)

 

[kennythebomb]

Ok, that's 1. (He was a terrorist right? I mean, he did go blow people up didn't he?)

I don't know... like I said... I never got the invitation to camp, either.

 

[Danoff]

I don't know... like I said... I never got the invitation to camp, either.

Ok then I take it back. You still haven't found a non-religious terrorist. Just a non-religious terrorist supporter.