Al Qaeda - A time to talk?

[ledhed]

There should be a thread entitled " Is it time to grab your rifle and go hunt Jihadist "


It would make WAY more sense and be much more productive than this one .


Here we sit jawing about how we should "talk " LOL

While they are putting out calls for all Islamic minded scientist to join the cause of Islamic extertimation of the western corrupters and satans ,..

You have a COUNTRY ruled by these same NUTS thats making bombs WHILE WE WATCH and babble at them...balh blah blah..

Maybe we are just part of darwins plan and are just way too stupid to see the intruments of our own destruction being built while we babble at them .

The president of Iran got up before the UN and made a nice speech calling for the end of the world and the return of the 12 th Imman...


HE GOT A STANDING OVATION. LOL


Face it the internet and the world wide communications age has brought western culture to people who HATE IT AND US . for them to keep their culture they feel they must ..

REMOVE US AS THE SOURCE.


Thats what they believe STRONGLY..and they are not only willing to die for it BUT THEY EMBRACE DEATH IN THE NAME OF THE CAUSE...

The cause being killing all of us infidel unbelievers.....but hey I was born like that..its not like its a rash or something .

BTW ...kinda explains why in Britains they didnt bother to inport there jihadist suicide dudes...they already lived there and were British...they just wanted all the British that were not Muslims to die .

No big deal.


I guess it will take a huge multi megaton bomb to go off under your cereal for you to finally get it .


Then I guess you will want to start a really strongly worded letter writing campaign .

 

[KSaiyu]

Nevermind.

 

[Swift]

Nevermind.

No, don't do that man. Stand up for your viewpoint. Make your argument. If you say foreign policy has fostered terrorism, I say the policies that did were put into place almost entirely BECAUSE of terrorism.

 

[KSaiyu]

The problem is our current policies foster all this hate, here you have a prime example:

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/183864.php

It shows the kind of nutters we have living in our country, and the type of people preaching to young muslims. Now even IF our continued support of the war on terror was reducing terrorist attacks (which I don't believe, hence the topic), these "vulnerable" muslims won't listen to this; they will listen to the people given free reign in our country, saying things like (excerpts from that link):

The people of Spain, it claims, have not been attacked since the Madrid bombings because they changed governments. "Despite warnings from al Qaeda in April of 2004, Tony Blair was re-elected as Prime Minister by the public in the U.K." The clear implication being that civilians in the U.K. were not innocents, but had the blood of British "attrocities" on their hands.

everal official written statement from the London branch of Bakri's followers, the 'al Ghurubaa' (the strangers), about the 'causes' of 7/7 can be found at their website here. While they are careful to 'condemn' the 7/7 bombers, they also equivocate between civilians accidentally killed by Western troops with the purposeful and targetted killings of civilians by Islamic terrorists.

This is the sort of thing they WILL hear, listen to and believe, and this is what will actually make them turn into terrorists. This doesn't just apply to "wannabe" terrorists either - it involves the, in my opinion, equally dangerous terrorists who have RETURNED from "jihad".

Now I don't know if you know, but Britain is becoming more and more multicultural, and we're now beginning to see the problems of this culture. People like this are free to preach to people, and if we mix this with the continued presence in the middle east with no stance at all on talks it's a timebomb waiting to explode. I believe it is lose-lose for us as a country to allow talking such as this to be allowed to continue that can target any muslim, and all the same while FEED the preachers with new messages of hate with our dismal foreign policy in dealing with muslims in other countries.

 

[Swift]

Now I don't know if you know, but Britain is becoming more and more multicultural, and we're now beginning to see the problems of this culture. People like this are free to preach to people, and if we mix this with the continued presence in the middle east with no stance at all on talks it's a timebomb waiting to explode. I believe it is lose-lose for us as a country to allow talking such as this to be allowed to continue that can target any muslim, and all the same while FEED the preachers with new messages of hate with our dismal foreign policy in dealing with muslims in other countries.

First off, multiculturalism is BAD. Very bad. I'm not talking immagration. I'm talking someone trying to bring their country to another and not assimiliating. The Mexican are doing that to the USA, the north Africans did it to France and the middle eastern arabs are doing it to Great Britain. To be honest, this is what's causing a lot of the problem right there. Both of our governments are too weak and wussy to let the immagrants know that they need to change to fit our culture, not the other way around. I'm all for immagration and even respecting and remembering their heritage. But there is a difference between an American-Mexican and a Mexican living in America.

The people of Spain, it claims, have not been attacked since the Madrid bombings because they changed governments. "Despite warnings from al Qaeda in April of 2004, Tony Blair was re-elected as Prime Minister by the public in the U.K." The clear implication being that civilians in the U.K. were not innocents, but had the blood of British "attrocities" on their hands.

This is crap. Spain retreats and they haven't had anymore bombings? Yeah, and? That just let's them focus on other countries. Whether or not Tony Blair is the best Prime Minister, like Bush, he understands that terrorism and radical islamics simply cannot be allowed to endure.

I really don't understand the Jihad's viewpoint. "We killed you, you killed us, so now...we're going to kill you some more!"

Again this is not like the IRA that have a very focused agenda(though terrible) this is just something that the global muslims terrorists rain down on all people against the jihad. It's cowardice and weak.

If it was time to talk, why don't THEY initiate it? If we do, as Danoff has said, we lose.

 

[Danoff]

Spain hasn't been attacked...

Yea, the US hasn't been attacked since Spain pulled out either. Lots of countries haven't. We tried leaving them alone, it didn't work. They're pissed, they want us to die. Our course of action is clear, kill them before they kill us.

 

[ledhed]

The problem is our current policies foster all this hate, here you have a prime example:

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/183864.php

It shows the kind of nutters we have living in our country, and the type of people preaching to young muslims. Now even IF our continued support of the war on terror was reducing terrorist attacks (which I don't believe, hence the topic), these "vulnerable" muslims won't listen to this; they will listen to the people given free reign in our country, saying things like (excerpts from that link):

So instaed of standing up like men and fighting for your own beliefs and your culture and your country ...you want to bend over ?


Explain to me how that makes things better than rounding up the radicals and shipping them to Iran or Iraq or some other country more suitable to their belief system ?

GRAB A RIFLE AND SHOOT A FEW THOUSAND OF THEM LIVE ON TV .

Thats what they would do . But they would just use swords and beheadings ...much more fitting to the sensibilities they want to express you see.


TALKING will not work ...we are beyond the talking stage . You talk BEFORE YOU START KILLING . After you either WIN or you LOSE ..TALKING is what the losing side does before its wiped out .

And that is history talking along with reality ..its the goast of all the dead peace loving inhabitants of earth comming back to warn you of your mistake .


The only talking needed now can be handled with 500 lb bombs and laser sights along with .50 cal mg's amnd M 16's etc.

That is the language the terrorist understand , They KNOW that when you are talking you are not fighting and YOU ARE LOSING .

Of course when the first nuke they set off is done and over ..you can start talking again ..give them time to build another one ...eventually you might catch on .


I now return you to your previouse program sorry for the interuption .

This is the sort of thing they WILL hear, listen to and believe, and this is what will actually make them turn into terrorists. This doesn't just apply to "wannabe" terrorists either - it involves the, in my opinion, equally dangerous terrorists who have RETURNED from "jihad".

Now I don't know if you know, but Britain is becoming more and more multicultural, and we're now beginning to see the problems of this culture. People like this are free to preach to people, and if we mix this with the continued presence in the middle east with no stance at all on talks it's a timebomb waiting to explode. I believe it is lose-lose for us as a country to allow talking such as this to be allowed to continue that can target any muslim, and all the same while FEED the preachers with new messages of hate with our dismal foreign policy in dealing with muslims in other countries.

 

[KSaiyu]

First off, multiculturalism is BAD. Very bad. I'm not talking immagration. I'm talking someone trying to bring their country to another and not assimiliating. The Mexican are doing that to the USA, the north Africans did it to France and the middle eastern arabs are doing it to Great Britain. To be honest, this is what's causing a lot of the problem right there. Both of our governments are too weak and wussy to let the immagrants know that they need to change to fit our culture, not the other way around. I'm all for immagration and even respecting and remembering their heritage. But there is a difference between an American-Mexican and a Mexican living in America.

Exactly, and I think a lot of blame needs to be put on this culture for exposing us more to the threat of terrorism.

This is crap. Spain retreats and they haven't had anymore bombings? Yeah, and? That just let's them focus on other countries. Whether or not Tony Blair is the best Prime Minister, like Bush, he understands that terrorism and radical islamics simply cannot be allowed to endure.

I put that quote in to show what terrorists here are being told - 7/7 was justified because of the involvement of the UK in Iraq and should still be considered a target for even more terrorism.

I really don't understand the Jihad's viewpoint. "We killed you, you killed us, so now...we're going to kill you some more!"

Again this is not like the IRA that have a very focused agenda(though terrible) this is just something that the global muslims terrorists rain down on all people against the jihad. It's cowardice and weak.

It is a different type of threat, I agree, but I still don't believe this is the best course of action for lessening the danger.

If it was time to talk, why don't THEY initiate it? If we do, as Danoff has said, we lose.

Lose what - talking wouldn't mean condoning their actions or forgetting what they've been responsible for in the past (just look at the talks about to take place between Ehud Olmert and the Hamas leader Abbas). GIVING INTO demands would, but exploring the avenue of talking would just be that - exploring, and if it could lead to less converts and less attacks, then it will have acheived something.

About the initiating, it was quoted twice in that programme Bin Laden did want to open negotiations, but frankly even I can't begin to see what you could acheive by negotiating at that time with him.

Spain hasn't been attacked...

Yea, the US hasn't been attacked since Spain pulled out either. Lots of countries haven't. We tried leaving them alone, it didn't work. They're pissed, they want us to die. Our course of action is clear, kill them before they kill us.

I suppose the difference is Spain is now considerably more safe from attacks relative to UK and the US.

So instaed of standing up like men and fighting for your own beliefs and your culture and your country ...you want to bend over ?

Explain to me how that makes things better than rounding up the radicals and shipping them to Iran or Iraq or some other country more suitable to their belief system ?

I stongly feel that we should deport the lot of them, or at least put them in prison for inciting hatred.

TALKING will not work ...we are beyond the talking stage . You talk BEFORE YOU START KILLING . After you either WIN or you LOSE ..TALKING is what the losing side does before its wiped out .

And that is history talking along with reality ..its the goast of all the dead peace loving inhabitants of earth comming back to warn you of your mistake .

But the current course is no working, not in the slightest. Attacks on troops and civilians are up and we're at more of a terrorist threat than ever from muslim extremists.

That is the language the terrorist understand , They KNOW that when you are talking you are not fighting and YOU ARE LOSING .

Of course when the first nuke they set off is done and over ..you can start talking again ..give them time to build another one ...eventually you might catch on .

I now return you to your previouse program sorry for the interuption .

?

 

[Cobra_UK]

1. I believe in Jesus (God, Muhammad, Jehovah or whatever you want to call it) because I hope there is something out there better than us, something pure, something that watches over us and sees our good deeds and our crimes against fellow man. Everyone should see their prophets as such entities. Belief should be in your heart in your scruples and your soul. Belief should be you wanting to better yourself, be kind and helpful to your fellow man, to love, respect and cherish. To care and provide for your family. To forgive and to give second chances. Every religion has fanatics or extremists. Every religion is guilty of atrocities. Killing in the name of religion has happened for thousands of years. Holy War is not a religious war. It's an extremist war, it's some leaders misinterpreting religion to achieve their goals. Using and abusing religion to subdue, doctrine and brainwash people. Muslim religion is not the only affected by this. Christianity and Catholicism religions were also used and abused by some of their leaders for some atrocities some of us can't even imagine. If Al Qaeda's intentions were to spark a global scale Holy War, it's starting to achieve it's goal. It's not just an Al Qaeda vs. West war any more. It could become a Muslim vs. West War. Yes, diplomacy is the key, yes, diplomacy may at times need to be reinforced by military action. There is and always will be a time to talk. To find the best solution for cease of terrorism by Al Qaeda and to stop this escalating tension which can indeed spark a religious war. A religious war will not have borders any more. The West operates a free religion policy, as such there are Muslims at our doorstep. We will certainly win a religious war, but it will be a World War. We have the potential to erase every Muslim from this planet. But this doesn't mean we should. I believe religions should learn from each other and learn to respect, accept and live with eachother.

2. Terrorism is evil, not just Al Qaeda, but IRA and any other faction that targets civilians. It doesn't matter if the terrorism is in the name of a righteous cause. If these factions declared war on the military of UK or US for example and only targeted these maybe their actions would be understood, respected and justified. Killing innocents is the lowest of the low. These factions are killing people like me and you. People used, abused, by our governments. People, lied to by our governments. It doesn't matter what we want, we're not in control of our corrupt politicians and our megalomaniac military, even if we'd like to be. Terrorists could attack politicians and military, not their fellow man.

3. I believe that our countries should have learned to better defend themselves from terrorists, try to improve Muslim public opinion and prevent potential future extremists and terrorists. Operate a policy of acceptance, inclusion and assimilation of foreign immigration. That would have been the smart thing to do. 9/11 happened because of a clever crazy man. He could have been from any country and set up a terrorist camp in any county. He did it in Afghanistan because it was easy for him as the country is a mess. Invading the countries, where this terrorism apparently originates from, to cure terrorism at it's root is false. US did not invade Iraq and Afghanistan to cure terrorism, but to further their own political and military needs. Stabilising the region is to ensure the oil flows uninterrupted and at a low price, as well as trying to teach everyone not to ever dare to carry out such acts of terrorism on US soil. Stabilising a region to US is to have a regime in power that favours US, stabilising the region is to ensure that self-confessed enemy's of US do not advance in technology to reach the capacity to attack US with WMD. UK joined in because to be a US ally is to be the ally of the most powerful country in the world. Our politicians saw this as most important. I'm not saying that's right, just stating some facts. 7/7 happened because UK didn't stabilise it's own country before invading another.

 

[vladimir]

Suicide bombers aren't blowing themselves up for political and cultural differences. They're blowing themselves up because their religion tells them it is what God wants them to do.

Yes, arabs are pissed at us for a large number of reasons. But religion is the reason for terrorism.

can you please give us some sources as to where "their religion" tells them to kill everyone else?

If you perform a terrorist act or die in a terrorist act then when you go to heaven you get all that stuff you talked about. As I understand it...

can you again give us some sources?

Look. Here it is. They are cousins. Hebrew's the children of Issac, Arabs the children of Ishmael. They BOTH claim the land promised to abraham their father. All of the conflict stems from that. Period. (I say that a lot don't I. )

land! you say it all yourself, its a conflict about the land. both of them want it, there are dozens of these conflicts about land, wealth, power or resources around the world and the vast majority of them doesn't involve any faith. if the israelis were green coloured atheists and the palestinians blue coloured martians they would still fight over that piece of land if they both thought it was theirs.

I knew you would go there.

It was Israel's land LONG before it was Arab. The bible and history confirm that.

Why won't you simply admit that terrorism is faith based. You can reason with a militant that doesn't like America because of something we did a while ago. There is no reasoning with someone that thinks you simply shouldn't exist.

you're doing a big mistake here swift, because you throw all the various different muslim terrorist groups into one bag.
there are a dozen different more or less terrorist movements in palestine alone and do you know why!? because they do not all have the same aims.

there is the palestine liberation organization, founded in '64 which believes that arab palestinians are entitled to souvereignity over palestine and that wants to create a secular state in which everyone would be equal regardless of sex, status or religion, it has a military arm the PLA which fought against israel in the 70s and 80s.

then the popular front for the liberation of palestine, founded '67, which is a secular communist movement that sought the idea of one pan-arabian state in which jews might live as a minority. they carried out a number of plane hijackings and recently a subgroup of them was responsible for a lot of suicide attacks during the intifada.

then there are the solely militant al-aqsa martyrs' brigades which startet in 2002, which are infamous for their suicide attacks targeted at civilians, but they are closely linked and financed by the secular fatah party.

now we come to the islamic movements like for example the hamas which believes that its the religious duty of the muslims to destroy the state of israel and create an islamic state. that group however was only founded in 1987, when the conflict was long in progress. they are very much anti-semitist, but since they gained more power recently they have restrained themselves a bit. the chief of the political bureu stated for example:"Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us — our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people."

then there are the holy jihad brigades which only very recently entered the stage and proclaimed that every non-muslim who entered palestine should be killed. they however only kidnapped some journalists and released them later.

there are some more groups, but that should give you an overview about how diverse they are. and actually the older movements are a lot more secular then the new movements who have sprung up more recently. it definately shows that you can't just throw all these terrorists who fight against israel into one bag.

But it's what starts and spurns it. Were it not for the religous factor, terrorism as we know it simply would not exist. It would be more like what happened with the IRA. Very focused on one particular objective. But with the religious factor, it gains a global appeal for muslims to act a certain way. Of course all muslims are not terrorists. But the terrorists are muslims. So all this debate is generally useless.

the religion is a factor, exactly. but not even the main reason.
they fight each other down there all the time, just like we did until just 60 years ago.

Can you find me an example of a non-religiously motivated terrorist? You might find one, but I'll be it'll be hard.

the algerian national movement MNA and the national liberation front were two socialist guerilla groups who fought each other over the supremacy in algeria and killed thousands of civilians in the process.

the national front for the liberation of corsica fights for an independent state of corsice since '76 and is responsible for thousands of attacks since.

the boricua popular army is a terrorist organization that has been active until recently in the US and puerto rico and seeks an independent state of puerto rico.

the PKK is a kurdish terrorist organization that started in '85, seeks an independent kurdish state and is responsible for tens of thousands of killings especially in turkey. the kurdish people are muslims, but their agenda has no religious aspect.

the ETA is a spanish terrorist organization that demands self determination for the basque population and is responsible for almost a thousand killings. they've recently declared a cease fire.

then there are and were countless of communist terrorists groups...baader meinhof gang in germany, the red brigades in italy, the shining path in peru, the farc in colombia.

all in all there is no shortage of non-religious terrorists. was timothy mcvain especially religious in his motives?

Their war with Israel is a holy war pure and simple. If the Israelis weren't jewish, and the arabs weren't muslim, I doubt there would be a conflict.

oh yes, there would be a conflict as long as two parties claim to own the same piece of land.

if you look at the ongoing conflicts around the world you will notice that the vast majority of them is about independance and land.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ongoing_wars

 

[ledhed]

While you make all these nice comparisons that you seem to think are relavent in some way to this current crop of Jihadist , I ask you to scroll back a bit and ACTUALLY read and comprehend what they want from us.

They want to remove western values and influence from the WORLD..the EARTH ..GET IT ???

Thats what they are blowing themselves up for...a true cause thats been predicted by their religion and that believe in enough to sacrifice their own life , not only willingly but with great JOY and celibration. Cant you see the POWER in that ? One man is an ARMY . IT takes one of the faithfull to slaughter a thousand or more of you sheep ..

Has this sunk into your head yet ?

It is OUR culture and way of life that offends them and must be changed to the true path or CLEASED from the face of the earth so as not to contaminate the faithfull .

So go on again about how this and that has worked oh ye infidel...


Instead of actually educating yourself on what THEY want by reading and listening to their own words ..you delude yourself into thinking of what they really mean and want...you make believe that what they say is just rubbish..

And yet they come through with every attack they promise and continue to recruit your own citizens to the cause to kill you .

When Israelis gone who is next ? They already claim to own Spain .

Look it up...its in thhe last letter to the world on how they will kill us and turn us to the proper path ..blah blah blah .


I want my Odin thread back...his guys know how to deal with this crap the right way .



BTW Ksaiyu...a Pakistani guy that's the last to interview Bin Laden and has been VERY accurate in the past , says that the current crop of warnings and messages are to satisfy Islamic laws by Ossama's mullahs , that he warned us enough..and to give Muslims a chance to get away...they claim to have smuggled a nuke or some device accross from mexico and are planning to set it off. He's been on CNN and Fox etc....if you want to google it...I hope its bull ..but ...who knows..12 million people managed to sneak accross that border ..whats a nuke or dirty bomb ?

 

[FoolKiller]

can you please give us some sources as to where "their religion" tells them to kill everyone else?
can you again give us some sources?

First of all the going and killing everyone else is being twisted by terrorist leaders. I thought that was well established and the comments here were understood to be saying that the terrorists do it for these reasons, even if that doesn't mean it is correct. I assume you have read teh whole thread before jumping in, as it would be bad to do otherwise.

And yes, they are promised virgins in Heaven for being good Muslims, although the number is never actually given. As dying in Jihad, based on Mohammed's battles that started in 623 CE and eventually led to him claiming Mecca in battle, is considered the greatest deed you can do because you sacrificed your life in the defense and growth of Islam. I was about to get smart and tell you to read a Koran, but I decided to actually give you a Guardian article discussing the whole virgins issue.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,631357,00.html

To rehash. Being a good Muslim gets you virgins in Heaven as a reward. Dying in Jihad is a truly great deed as you are defending Islam with your life. Radical leaders have twisted this to mean that if you become a suicide bomber then you will go straight to Heaven and gain virgins. Yay!

land! you say it all yourself, its a conflict about the land. both of them want it, there are dozens of these conflicts about land, wealth, power or resources around the world and the vast majority of them doesn't involve any faith. if the israelis were green coloured atheists and the palestinians blue coloured martians they would still fight over that piece of land if they both thought it was theirs.

You do realize why they fight over this land, don't you? Because it is considered HOLY LAND. Jerusalem is the heart of the Hebrew religion and the land granted them by God, and given to them in battle many times over. For Muslims it is where Muhammed ascended into Heaven and met God.

Does it get much more religious than that?

 

[Swift]

can you please give us some sources as to where "their religion" tells them to kill everyone else?
can you again give us some sources?

Every report after 9/11 that talked about the terrorists.

land! you say it all yourself, its a conflict about the land. both of them want it, there are dozens of these conflicts about land, wealth, power or resources around the world and the vast majority of them doesn't involve any faith. if the israelis were green coloured atheists and the palestinians blue coloured martians they would still fight over that piece of land if they both thought it was theirs.

Yeah, and they'd still be radically stupid for doing it.

you're doing a big mistake here swift, because you throw all the various different muslim terrorist groups into one bag.
there are a dozen different more or less terrorist movements in palestine alone and do you know why!? because they do not all have the same aims.
*snip*

Uh, hmm.. A terrorist organization is a terrorist organization. Whether it be the IRA or Hezbollah. Let me ask you this. If some of the terrorists have different agendas and what not, why don't they stop the ones that hurt their cause? I don't mean say something, I mean actually try to stop them? Because at the end of the day they all agree that the world would be better if they A) get rid of Israel enteirely and B) Destroy wetern culture.

the religion is a factor, exactly. but not even the main reason.
they fight each other down there all the time, just like we did until just 60 years ago.

Religion started it and religion continues to fuel it. We went over this a few pages ago.

While you make all these nice comparisons that you seem to think are relavent in some way to this current crop of Jihadist , I ask you to scroll back a bit and ACTUALLY read and comprehend what they want from us.

They want to remove western values and influence from the WORLD..the EARTH ..GET IT ???

Yep, I get it.

*snip*
Does it get much more religious than that?

Nope, it really doesn't. Excellent reference FK. Glad you're on my debate team

 

[ledhed]

Why can't you just read the guys own words and believe them ? He and his followers do .

 

[magburner]

...I've been in full support of Bush and his Administration during our "War on Terror," and I continue to do so. Of course we can all have our nit-picks as to how the war has been handeled (not particularly well in many cases), but indeed we are in it for the long-haul.

I'd hardly call it nit-picking! There are a lot of people that have some very strong objections to the war on terror, in particular, the war in Iraq. Here in the UK there is little support for either.

A slight tangent:

Which is funny, because we (and our Allies) MUST follow all-rules of the Geneva convention when entering combat with these folks, despite the fact that they represent no nation, thus in theory, shouldn't be protected under those laws...

Just something I've been thinking about.

All rules of the Geneva Convention? WTF is Guantanamo Bay then? A seaside resort? In my opinion, it is right that we have to follow the Geneva convention to the letter of the law. After all, we are supposed to be the good guys - We should be following them as a matter of course.

What it comes down to is that if you want change, we as Americans and you as Britons all have your oppertunities to "fix it" by voting out your representatives in the near future. Our Congressional elections are comming up in early November (one that should see about ten seats per house going back to the Democrats), and although your next elections are in 2010 (correct me if I'm wrong, please) you are switching Prime Ministers next year (again, correct me if I'm wrong).

Same horse, different jockey.

LOL, so going after murderers makes their actions your(UK's) fault? Uh...nope! If they weren't murdering in the first place, why would we(USA and UK) have to take actions against them and the nation states that support them?

Yes in respect to the UK it does. The London bombers blamed our invasion of Iraq as one of the main reasons why they carried out the attack. I can't stop thinking that if we had not invaded Iraq, the London bombing would not of occurred.

There was only ever one nation state that supported terrorism - Afghanistan. America invaded that country, and removed the Taliban from power (temporarily), and left its 'allies' to mop up the mess that was left.

Lose what - talking wouldn't mean condoning their actions or forgetting what they've been responsible for in the past (just look at the talks about to take place between Ehud Olmert and the Hamas leader Abbas). GIVING INTO demands would, but exploring the avenue of talking would just be that - exploring, and if it could lead to less converts and less attacks, then it will have acheived something.

Spot On mate! Its also worth pointing out that the reason that the IRA stopped bombing mainland Brittain was because we were willing to compromise. Of course they are terrorists, and of course it seems as if they gained more than we did, but we now have peace - a peace we thought we would never have. Why can't the same methodology be applied to other terrorist organisations?

So instaed of standing up like men and fighting for your own beliefs and your culture and your country ...you want to bend over ?

Explain to me how that makes things better than rounding up the radicals and shipping them to Iran or Iraq or some other country more suitable to their belief system ?

I stongly feel that we should deport the lot of them, or at least put them in prison for inciting hatred.

Firstly, KSaiyu. What your saying is wrong. To do what you suggest would make us no better than the terrorists that we are supposed to be fighting, and would add even more weight to their arguement (if their needs to be any more!); As well as undermine the principles of our democracy. Let them preach hate, we don't have to listen to it.

Going back to the IRA for a second. Does anyone remember when Gerry Adams voice was censored? Everytime he appeared on TV, you could see him, you could see his lips move, but there was no sound! Instead, someone would voiceover what he said in a similar way to what translators do when an non-english speaker is on the news. Now did that censorship achieve anything at all?

Secondly, ledhed. The British people will never bend over to anyone, period. I'm all for ending terrorism, I just don't think that what we are doing is going to end it.

Suicide bombers aren't blowing themselves up for political and cultural differences. They're blowing themselves up because their religion tells them it is what God wants them to do.

Thats a statement borne out of ignorance danoff. I hope you have proof to back up that claim, or is it just wild speculation? Did you even bother to look up the true meaning of jihad? If you had, you would of realised that you were way off the mark.

I used to have a Koran, until my ex-girlfriend tore it to shreds in a fit of rage! I don't remember reading anything that suggested to me that Allah or any of the prophets condoned or even tacitly supported acts of terrorism. What you will find is that radicals and extremists have bent the Koran (in particular jihad) to their own agenda. Its those extremeists that are to blame not the Koran or even Allah. Besides, it is every Muslims duty to respond to Jihad, its just a shame that jihad has been hijacked by the extremists and radicals.
'
Its also worth pointing out that jihad is closer to meaning 'struggle' than it is to meaning 'war' or 'holy war'. A struggle can be anything from presonal to political. Also, jihad by the sword (ie. 'holy war') is a lesser jihad, whislt Jihad of the heart/soul is a greater jihad.

THE CONCEPT OF JIHAD ("STRUGGLE') IN ISLAM (Religious Tollerance.org)

Muslim scholars explained there are five kinds of jihad fi sabilillah (struggle in the cause of God):

* Jihad of the heart/soul (jihad bin nafs/qalb) is an inner struggle of good against evil in the mind, through concepts such as tawhid.
* Jihad by the tongue (jihad bil lisan) is a struggle of good against evil waged by writing and speech, such as in the form of dawah (proselytizing), Khutbas (sermons), et al.
* Jihad by the pen and knowledge (jihad bil qalam/ilm) is a struggle for good against evil through scholarly study of Islam, ijtihad (legal reasoning), and through sciences (such as medical sciences).
* Jihad by the hand (jihad bil yad) refers to a struggle of good against evil waged by actions or with one's wealth, such as going on the Hajj pilgrimage (seen as the best jihad for women), taking care of elderly parents, providing funding for jihad, political activity for furthering the cause of Islam, stopping evil by force, or espionage.
* Jihad by the sword (jihad bis saif) refers to qital fi sabilillah (armed fighting in the way of God, or holy war).

Muslims perpetrate most of today's terror, so most terror must be motivated by Islam.

At present, 31 of 35 organizations perpetrating suicide terror are Muslim. But five years ago, a majority of attacks were carried out by secular rather than religious organizations. Because religion-terror correlations have changed over time, they tell us little about causation. Even if the statistics were stable, it is not possible to infer bomber motivations from organizational charters. Rather than ask who is perpetrating the attacks, we need to ask why.

Here history can help. Martyr missions made their official twentieth-century debut in the Second World War with the Kamikazes; they showed up again in the 1960s, when Viet Cong sympathizers exploded themselves amidst U.S. troops. Their debut in the Islamic world was not until the 1980s, during the Iran-Iraq war. Facing a far superior Iraqi military, Ayatollah Khomeini rounded up children by the tens of thousands and sent them in "human waves" to overrun the enemy. While Persians accrued losses in the war against Iraq, the role of the martyr in defensive jihad was exalted. As in U.S. wars, the dead became heroes.

The Iranian example had seismic effects. Lebanese groups appropriated the notion of a martyr's death almost immediately, employing human bombs against Israeli and international presences in Lebanon as early as 1981. Half of the human bombs in Lebanon were perpetrated by secular organizations. The Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka perfected the tactic, becoming the most professional cadre in the world. Human bombs were also used by the Kurdish PKK against Turkey, the Sikhs in India, and the Palestinians against Israel, to name a few.

When we think of suicide bombers, we think of extremism. But the cases above locate the bomber as one popularly supported element in a coherent campaign of resistance against a perceived occupier, and such was true for 95 percent of the bombings prior to 2003. Note that allegiance to resistance appeared to trump allegiance to religion. And most important, for bombers and for the publics that exalted them, the notion of self-sacrifice would not have existed except for the context: a perceived necessity for group defense.

Note the sections I highlighted? Now which side was America supporting during that war? You could argue that suicide bombers were a by-product of Americas support for Iraq during that conflict.

Read the full article here: The Hard Truth About Suicide Bombers (alternet)

 

[Danoff]

can you please give us some sources as to where "their religion" tells them to kill everyone else?
can you again give us some sources?

As ledhed says, read their statements.

the algerian national movement MNA and the national liberation front were two socialist guerilla groups who fought each other over the supremacy in algeria and killed thousands of civilians in the process.

Terrorist?

the national front for the liberation of corsica fights for an independent state of corsice since '76 and is responsible for thousands of attacks since.

Terrorist?

the boricua popular army is a terrorist organization that has been active until recently in the US and puerto rico and seeks an independent state of puerto rico.

Suicide attacks?

the PKK is a kurdish terrorist organization that started in '85, seeks an independent kurdish state and is responsible for tens of thousands of killings especially in turkey. the kurdish people are muslims, but their agenda has no religious aspect.

Really? They want a kurdish state for non-religious reasons? What non-religious reasons are those?

the ETA is a spanish terrorist organization that demands self determination for the basque population and is responsible for almost a thousand killings. they've recently declared a cease fire.

Suicide bombings?

then there are and were countless of communist terrorists groups...baader meinhof gang in germany, the red brigades in italy, the shining path in peru, the farc in colombia.

Countless? Were they guerilla groups or terrorists? Were they suicidal?

all in all there is no shortage of non-religious terrorists. was timothy mcvain especially religious in his motives?

It was my understanding that he was motivated by religion.


Why does it bother you that the terrorists we fight are religiously motivated? What's the problem here. I said it was a holy war, and it is indeed one. What's the big concern on your part about that? Does that ruin one of your arguments somewhere? If so, I don't see it.

Just admit that the terrorists we fight are fighting us for religious reasons and move on. It's not a big deal.

 

[ledhed]

Magburner ..explain this to me from YOUR standpoint .

Plaease elightem me as to how this has nothing to with religion and even though its from Osama Bin Laden I can pay it no heed .

Sunday November 24, 2002
Observer.co.uk


In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,
"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory" [Quran 22:39]

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76]

Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.

While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:

Why did they attack us in New York and Washington?

If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.

Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

(a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!!

(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws.

What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.

If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise." [Quran9:13-1]

The Nation of honour and respect:

"But honour, power and glory belong to Allah, and to His Messenger (Muhammad- peace be upon him) and to the believers." [Quran 63:8]

"So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be*superior ( in victory )if you are indeed (true) believers" [Quran 3:139]

The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life:

"Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they are being provided for. They rejoice in what Allah has bestowed upon them from His bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers." [Quran 3:169-171]

The Nation of victory and success that Allah has promised:

"It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it victorious over all other religions even though the Polytheists hate it." [Quran 61:9]

"Allah has decreed that 'Verily it is I and My Messengers who shall be victorious.' Verily Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty." [Quran 58:21]

The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance.

If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this Crusade Bush began, just like the other previous Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen, fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace. If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall, and economic bankruptcy.

This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious?

You may have misssed this one ..but two more " fatwas" are ready, if you like to be posted,,this one was updated and was intended for the American people because Osama's religiouse advisors claimed he faailed to follow the proper form before his lastt attack against America . Even the Islamic terrorist have rules to fight Jihad by ..like we have a geneva Convention , the y it seems have a Jihadist convention .

Unleess you are totally ignotant of the facts and have decided to forever remain so , you must realise that Osama and co. have based their actions and are inspired by and inspiring others directly from the teachings of ISLAM .
They seek tthe BLESSINGS and the ADVICE of their own CLERGY their AYatollahs or whatever you care to call them .


But thats juust my simple opinion based on the facts as they present themselves.

You can have a shot at claiming otherwise.

Dont forget if you need to read the other two they can be posted for you...but they say almost the same thing and invoke Jihad in the name of Allah .



And really REMBER this because if they just happen to win this will be why .

The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life:

"Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they are being provided for. They rejoice in what Allah has bestowed upon them from His bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers." [Quran 3:169-171]

This above , and the fact that we ..the west and the secular world ...did not take them at thier own words .

 

[YSSMAN]

Yes in respect to the UK it does. The London bombers blamed our invasion of Iraq as one of the main reasons why they carried out the attack. I can't stop thinking that if we had not invaded Iraq, the London bombing would not of occurred.

I see that very differently. Your government knew there was a terrorist threat if you attacked Iraq with us or not. You are an ally to the United States, and in the eyes of the terrorists, you deserve to die just as much as we do. I don't think Iraq has much to do with the sources of the issues at hand, but I think most people could concede that it has done enough to improve their morale against democracy and freedom.

...Was attacking Iraq the best thing to do? Yes and no, as it depends on how you view the war. But I think most of us can agree that being on the offensive against the terrorists is about the best thing we can do right now...

 

[Danoff]

Yes in respect to the UK it does. The London bombers blamed our invasion of Iraq as one of the main reasons why they carried out the attack. I can't stop thinking that if we had not invaded Iraq, the London bombing would not of occurred.

That doesn't change who is responsible for the bombing.

Thats a statement borne out of ignorance danoff. I hope you have proof to back up that claim, or is it just wild speculation? Did you even bother to look up the true meaning of jihad? If you had, you would of realised that you were way off the mark.

Listen to what the terrorists say. Listen to Osama's words and you'll know that I am right. These people blow themselves up because they believe that it is what God wants them to do. Their religious beliefs (don't confuse that with all muslims), tell them that it is God's will that they kill innocent infidels. All the proof I need is in their own admissions.

I used to have a Koran, until my ex-girlfriend tore it to shreds in a fit of rage! I don't remember reading anything that suggested to me that Allah or any of the prophets condoned or even tacitly supported acts of terrorism. blah blah muslims are great blah blah blah

I don't care about what the Koran says. I care about the religious beliefs of those who are blowing up innocent civilians.

Note the sections I highlighted? Now which side was America supporting during that war? You could argue that suicide bombers were a by-product of Americas support for Iraq during that conflict.

You keep trying to shift the blame to America. But we cannot be held responsible for the actions of others.

 

[ledhed]

But Dannoff it is America's fault. Because we are American , and have American values and a sytem of government that allows way too much freedom of thoughts and religion the rest of the world is either tempted by them or repulsed..and those that do not want that temptation to erode the morals of the young and those under their controll , wish to se it destroyed in name of their religion , because it is stealing the morals and the souls away from what they see as the one and only true RELIGION ...TREIRS ...and the proper path in life .


See its easy to blame America we have stuff and hot babes and flaunt our wealth and everyone wants to be like us...the mullahs CAN'T STAND IT !


Can you imagine comming home from Mullah work and catching your kids watching u tube or MTV or VHI and dressing up like Maddona ? Or catching them singing rap songs and being all gangsta !


You would be going all Jihad yourself !

America must die ..and before our french fries kill us .

 

[Swift]

Their religious beliefs (don't confuse that with all muslims), tell them that it is God's will that they kill innocent infidels. All the proof I need is in their own admissions.

Actually, they believe that anyone that associates with the enemy is not innocent at all.

 

[ledhed]

Insha'Allah ...if you die its because God wills it . God is all powerfull and mercifull .

Its not MY fault you died . You died because God willed it .


When the infidels are attacked after every effort has been made to change their ways and to point out the insults and attacks they have made , it is only right that the faithfull use the methods available to get revenge and more importantly to show them the proper path .

The so called " terrorist ' have pointed out that every American is responsible for the actions of its government and therefore all Americans are fair targets and far from innocent civilians . Unless of course they repent their actions and turn to the path of the light .

Every Briton and every person that lives in a democracy and lives outside of islamic law in a country that has injured Islam or its people in any way is a fair target . After all they have NOT risen up and thrown away the government that oppresses the people of GOD they have supported them ..so they must die .

Its kind of logical isn't it ?


And just think you only need ONE percent of Muslims in the world to believe this and act on it and what army on earth can stop them ...


Do the math .

 

[vladimir]

While you make all these nice comparisons that you seem to think are relavent in some way to this current crop of Jihadist , I ask you to scroll back a bit and ACTUALLY read and comprehend what they want from us.

They want to remove western values and influence from the WORLD..the EARTH ..GET IT ???

i'm still wondering what the "they" is that you're talking about. if you mean osama bin ladin and his al quaeda, you are right. but you seem to put the fatwa, al quaeda, all the muslim terrorists and islam all together and talk like it was all one and the same thing.
you say "their religion" and "islam," but just like in christianity, there are very different groups. if islam was the sole motivation of all those terrorists, then i wonder why not every faithful muslim is trying to kill us!?

As ledhed says, read their statements.

i posted one such statement in the part that was directed at swift:
"Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us — our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people." and that was even one of the NON-SECULAR ISLAMIC groups that is terrorizing israel.

Terrorist?

Terrorist?

Suicide attacks?

Suicide bombings?

Countless? Were they guerilla groups or terrorists? Were they suicidal?

those were all terrorist groups and i don't think that the question if they used suicidal methods or not bears any relevance. i'm pretty sure there are also non-suicidal islamic terrorists...

Really? They want a kurdish state for non-religious reasons? What non-religious reasons are those?

like having their own state?! or is that an absurd reason? its the same reason the IRA or the ETA fought for.

It was my understanding that he was motivated by religion.

allright, there are thousands of others still.

Why does it bother you that the terrorists we fight are religiously motivated? What's the problem here. I said it was a holy war, and it is indeed one. What's the big concern on your part about that? Does that ruin one of your arguments somewhere? If so, I don't see it.

Just admit that the terrorists we fight are fighting us for religious reasons and move on. It's not a big deal.

because if you want to fight terrorism in a way that removes it entirely, you have to know why poeple become terrorists.

now as i pointed out in the part directed at swift, religion isn't even the most important factor.

of course you can continue to fight against terror in the way its done at the moment, but as iraq shows that won't stop it.

First of all the going and killing everyone else is being twisted by terrorist leaders. I thought that was well established and the comments here were understood to be saying that the terrorists do it for these reasons, even if that doesn't mean it is correct. I assume you have read teh whole thread before jumping in, as it would be bad to do otherwise.

And yes, they are promised virgins in Heaven for being good Muslims, although the number is never actually given. As dying in Jihad, based on Mohammed's battles that started in 623 CE and eventually led to him claiming Mecca in battle, is considered the greatest deed you can do because you sacrificed your life in the defense and growth of Islam. I was about to get smart and tell you to read a Koran, but I decided to actually give you a Guardian article discussing the whole virgins issue.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,631357,00.html

thanks for this article, but if i read statements like the following by ledhead it seems like this has not been established yet:
"you must realise that Osama and co. have based their actions and are inspired by and inspiring others directly from the teachings of ISLAM ."
the article makes it clear that its not islam that teaches terror, but its people who interpret islam in such a way that it fits their agenda. if islam wouldn't be there they would find other way to make people kill.
as i pointed out, a lot of the terrorists from palestine are secular!
how can religion then be main factor for terrorism?

You do realize why they fight over this land, don't you? Because it is considered HOLY LAND. Jerusalem is the heart of the Hebrew religion and the land granted them by God, and given to them in battle many times over. For Muslims it is where Muhammed ascended into Heaven and met God.

Does it get much more religious than that?

jews and muslims have lived in this place for ages. if they were so interested in killing other people for the sake of their beliefs, why did they manage to live peacefully there under the ottoman empire for example?

Uh, hmm.. A terrorist organization is a terrorist organization. Whether it be the IRA or Hezbollah. Let me ask you this. If some of the terrorists have different agendas and what not, why don't they stop the ones that hurt their cause? I don't mean say something, I mean actually try to stop them? Because at the end of the day they all agree that the world would be better if they A) get rid of Israel enteirely and B) Destroy wetern culture.

i'm sorry, but the vast majority of terrorist organizations in palestine are not in the slightest interested in destroying western culture.
al quaeda is, yes, but ironically ernough al quaeda hasn't launched any attack in israel yet. anf if you ask for the PLO to fight osama bin ladin, i think you're asking a bit much i think...

Religion started it and religion continues to fuel it. We went over this a few pages ago.

you have still not explained to me how religion got secular terrorist organizations started.

and i could just as well say that the american invasion of iraq fuels terrorism...

 

[ledhed]

i'm still wondering what the "they" is that you're talking about. if you mean osama bin ladin and his al quaeda, you are right. but you seem to put the fatwa, al quaeda, all the muslim terrorists and islam all together and talk like it was all one and the same thing.
you say "their religion" and "islam," but just like in christianity, there are very different groups. if islam was the sole motivation of all those terrorists, then i wonder why not every faithful muslim is trying to kill us!?

i posted one such statement in the part that was directed at swift:
"Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us — our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people." and that was even one of the NON-SECULAR ISLAMIC groups that is terrorizing israel.


those were all terrorist groups and i don't think that the question if they used suicidal methods or not bears any relevance. i'm pretty sure there are also non-suicidal islamic terrorists...


like having their own state?! or is that an absurd reason? its the same reason the IRA or the ETA fought for.


allright, there are thousands of others still.


because if you want to fight terrorism in a way that removes it entirely, you have to know why poeple become terrorists.

now as i pointed out in the part directed at swift, religion isn't even the most important factor.

of course you can continue to fight against terror in the way its done at the moment, but as iraq shows that won't stop it.

thanks for this article, but if i read statements like the following by ledhead it seems like this has not been established yet:
"you must realise that Osama and co. have based their actions and are inspired by and inspiring others directly from the teachings of ISLAM ."
the article makes it clear that its not islam that teaches terror, but its people who interpret islam in such a way that it fits their agenda. if islam wouldn't be there they would find other way to make people kill.
as i pointed out, a lot of the terrorists from palestine are secular!
how can religion then be main factor for terrorism?

jews and muslims have lived in this place for ages. if they were so interested in killing other people for the sake of their beliefs, why did they manage to live peacefully there under the ottoman empire for example?

i'm sorry, but the vast majority of terrorist organizations in palestine are not in the slightest interested in destroying western culture.
al quaeda is, yes, but ironically ernough al quaeda hasn't launched any attack in israel yet. anf if you ask for the PLO to fight osama bin ladin, i think you're asking a bit much i think...

you have still not explained to me how religion got secular terrorist organizations started.

and i could just as well say that the american invasion of iraq fuels terrorism...

Your very existance on earth inspires this type of RADICAL ISLAMIC TERRORISM . The FACT is it is spreading rapidly and with EVERY success the radicals have ,they DRAW more followers to their cause...wich is KILLING YOU or SUBJUGATING YOU .

They Beat the Russians in Afghanistan...A super power..with help from SATAN the US ...all the while KNOWING that the US was next in line .
Every successfull attack drew more converts to the cause and the MOTHER of all success the attacks of 9/11 ...drew not only billions of dollars of support but showed every tin pot dictator with a revenge habit a cheap way to strike back at any country in the world WITHOUT AN ARMY OR AIRFORCE .

Hezbollah invaded Israel and bombarded them for a month...Hezbollah IS IRAN .

What would Saddam have done with his billions of dollars of money to spend on terrorist ?

Lockerbie flight whatever that is directly linked to Hezbollah...was that a result of the Vinchennes incident ? or a simple coincidence ?

Again by a proxy of Iran .

Iran wants to bring toghether a new caliphate ..a persian ruled Islamic world..they fully believe that their revolution will accomplish this goal and are actively pursuing it...but they UNLIKE we westerners who are used to things being over in an hour and think a 5 year war is a long one...are prepared to take generations and have set up their schools and are teaching their youth that Jews need to die and the US must be destroyed . And the rest of the rotten and corrupt western devils will faall apart.

Sorry but I have been reading too many English translations of Arabic news and " Blogs" and they all talk about the new world they are working to achieve.

Do you read Forbes Magazine ? You should check out this months issue.

225 million Muslims in Indonesia ( forgive me this is by memory so my numbers may be skewed a bit) and the millions in southern Maylasia and Thailand ...at one time they said they were MAYLASIAN first Muslim second ..or Indonesian first and muslim second ..etc...now its like 80 percent or more say we are MUSLIM FIRST and ( name the country ) second .

You say Islam doesn't teach...etc.

BUT PEOPLE DO TEACH and they USE Islam to unify and identify an enemy and a culture who they feel is decadent and a bad influence and a Jihad must be waged to save the Islamic world from it .


Please if you think it is possible PROVE ME WRONG .

Show me the multitudes of Islamic scholars fighting to close the schools that preach the radical form of Islam...

Face it the information age works BOTH ways and some people DONT like the input and are genuanlly scared out of their wits they will lose their culture and identity to it and are fighting back.


Its about religion and its about culture and its about revenge for hundreds of years of being beat down .

This is what I have learned and continue to learn.

My son is 16 in two years where will he be killing jihadist ?

As a father I get to deal with that . So I take time to learn what we are facing .

So argue away ..while I dig up what the other side is saying to us ...and we are not paying much attention to .

BUT remember this.... LOSE in Iraq or Afghanistan.... and you better get used to being like an Israeli...buses blowing up ..resturants ...hotels...get used to having your own home grown bombers like Great Britain..

Of course when Iran gets its Nuke Israel wont exist anymore but hey...the EU may have some really strong language they have been saving that might work...

I put it on the EU because UNLESS the world unites behind the US and faces Iran the Islamic world will just see an attack against Iran as another sign Jihad is the right path.

And while Russia and China and France are making BILLIONS off of Iran I laugh at the chances of a united west...we like seing ourselves brought to the brink of destruction before we destroy the world and start over .

Rant over..



BTW Vlad..saying IRAQ FUELS TERRORISM is true to a point...but you are also not seeing the FORREST for the TREES .

Get it ?

Iraq and Afghanistan are battles in a global war ...while you focus on Iraq..the rest is burning.

 

[vladimir]

would you guys please read this text:
http://www.amconmag.com/2005_07_18/article.html

Your very existance on earth inspires this type of RADICAL ISLAMIC TERRORISM . The FACT is it is spreading rapidly and with EVERY success the radicals have ,they DRAW more followers to their cause...wich is KILLING YOU or SUBJUGATING YOU .

can you then please point me towards the many terrorist attacks that have taken place in countries that were uninvolved in any of the struggles!?

What would Saddam have done with his billions of dollars of money to spend on terrorist ?

yeah what did he do? he had time ernough since the first gulf war...

Lockerbie flight whatever that is directly linked to Hezbollah...was that a result of the Vinchennes incident ? or a simple coincidence ?

what has the hezbollah to do with lockerbie?

Iran wants to bring toghether a new caliphate ..a persian ruled Islamic world..they fully believe that their revolution will accomplish this goal and are actively pursuing it...but they UNLIKE we westerners who are used to things being over in an hour and think a 5 year war is a long one...are prepared to take generations and have set up their schools and are teaching their youth that Jews need to die and the US must be destroyed . And the rest of the rotten and corrupt western devils will faall apart.

yes, some people there want a pan-arabian state under islamic law. thats why they fight enyone who they think isn't supposed to be there, like the US or israel. they don't want to destroy the west, they want to get rid of the western influence down there.

BUT PEOPLE DO TEACH and they USE Islam to unify and identify an enemy and a culture who they feel is decadent and a bad influence and a Jihad must be waged to save the Islamic world from it .

Please if you think it is possible PROVE ME WRONG .

Show me the multitudes of Islamic scholars fighting to close the schools that preach the radical form of Islam...

let me do something different for now, let me show you in how many ways osama's fatwa can actually be seen as right (which might be one of the reasons why the radicals are tolerated by so many, don't you think?)

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression [...]
And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is [not?] a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.
[i don't see this as a bad thing, but i guess not everyone favours a democracy and you can't force democracy on people, that just doesn't work. before you start a democracy the people have to understand its concept.]

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.
[ok, the saudis and others are stinking rich, too, but even in the western world there are a lot of people who would say that there is this theft...]

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque.
Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.
[he entered it, but i guess the rest is not true!?]

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.


(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We [don't?] desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

although its certainly axaggerated in many ways, its not completely made up. thats where al quaeda and others draw their support from.
see the interview above for more backup on that...

Its about religion and its about culture and its about revenge for hundreds of years of being beat down .

This is what I have learned and continue to learn.

My son is 16 in two years where will he be killing jihadist ?

As a father I get to deal with that . So I take time to learn what we are facing .

So argue away ..while I dig up what the other side is saying to us ...and we are not paying much attention to .

if you are really so interested and concerned then why don't you try to come up with something that does change something?
the iraq war has not slowed down terrorism, it has spawned a lot more (and support.) thats a matter of fact.
if you would withdraw all your troops from the middle east the support for al quaeda would decrease because occupation is one of the things that makes many angry. but you know what? i don't even want you to withdraw now because you've caused quite a mess down there and that needs to be cleaned up first.

BUT remember this.... LOSE in Iraq or Afghanistan.... and you better get used to being like an Israeli...buses blowing up ..resturants ...hotels...get used to having your own home grown bombers like Great Britain..

i actually didn't even oppose the war in afghanistan. i didn't really support it either, because you know, in the end i'm still a bit pacifist. but i wasn't really opposed either...
anyway, afghanistan is interesting. whats the situation down there right now?
i heard it got worse lately with the taliban's influence growing again and people being oppressed by warlords. was that your aim?
where is the US in afghanistan, where is the hunt for bin ladin?
it looks like afghanistan has been very much being left alone now and dropped from the public conscious while all attention is on iraq.
that doesn't really sound like winning in afghanistan?!

Of course when Iran gets its Nuke Israel wont exist anymore but hey...the EU may have some really strong language they have been saving that might work...

I put it on the EU because UNLESS the world unites behind the US and faces Iran the Islamic world will just see an attack against Iran as another sign Jihad is the right path.

And while Russia and China and France are making BILLIONS off of Iran I laugh at the chances of a united west...we like seing ourselves brought to the brink of destruction before we destroy the world and start over .

why was iraq then attacked and not iran?
an anti-semitic and anti-western guy like amadinedjad certainly got even more support due to the west actually acting like these fundamentalists proclaim the west did...

Iraq and Afghanistan are battles in a global war ...while you focus on Iraq..the rest is burning.

not a global war, i hope you have read the interview...

 

[Swift]

i'm sorry, but the vast majority of terrorist organizations in palestine are not in the slightest interested in destroying western culture.
al quaeda is, yes, but ironically ernough al quaeda hasn't launched any attack in israel yet. anf if you ask for the PLO to fight osama bin ladin, i think you're asking a bit much i think...

Right they just want to destroy our good friend Israel by any means needed. You have proof that Al queda has NEVER launched an attack on Israel?

you have still not explained to me how religion got secular terrorist organizations started.

Show me a completely secular ARAB terrorist organization.

and i could just as well say that the american invasion of iraq fuels terrorism...

Right, stopping Sadam from gassing, decapitating, shooting and otherwise destroying hundreds of thousand of Iraqis fueled terrorism.

 

[vladimir]

Right they just want to destroy our good friend Israel by any means needed. You have proof that Al queda has NEVER launched an attack on Israel?

except for a bomb attack on a hotel in kenia which was owned by an israeli and that killed two israelis and a launch of a missile at an airplane headed for israel that thankfully failed to hit its target, there are no known attacks that have actually taken place in israel.

if you can come up with one i'll take that back.

Show me a completely secular ARAB terrorist organization.

i've mentioned two or three in my first post at you, but if you want i can list them again:
Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine
Palestine Liberation Front
Popular Resistance Committees

Right, stopping Sadam from gassing, decapitating, shooting and otherwise destroying hundreds of thousand of Iraqis fueled terrorism.

it is very sad, but also very true.

you as well must read this interview:
http://www.amconmag.com/2005_07_18/article.html

 

[vladimir]

oh and apparently your questions have been heard swift, i've just learned that there is violent fighting going on between different palestinian factions at the moment.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/03/rice.mideast.ap/index.html

 

[FoolKiller]

thanks for this article, but if i read statements like the following by ledhead it seems like this has not been established yet:
"you must realise that Osama and co. have based their actions and are inspired by and inspiring others directly from the teachings of ISLAM ."
the article makes it clear that its not islam that teaches terror, but its people who interpret islam in such a way that it fits their agenda. if islam wouldn't be there they would find other way to make people kill.

But it is and that is what is being used. If religion weren't there people this passionate would have found another thing to be passionate about, but religion is there so it is the main motivating factor.

jews and muslims have lived in this place for ages. if they were so interested in killing other people for the sake of their beliefs, why did they manage to live peacefully there under the ottoman empire for example?

I am not even going to pretend to know why people acted differently 500 years ago, but I can take a guess; Swords, really, really big swords. They were both dominated by the same people so in-fighting was probably frowned upon.

 

[vladimir]

But it is and that is what is being used. If religion weren't there people this passionate would have found another thing to be passionate about, but religion is there so it is the main motivating factor.

so you would say that the evilness of those people is genetic or what? because you say if it wasn't for religion they would find other reasons to explain their passion. that sounds to me like the passion came first and reasons were only looked for afterwards. where does the passion comes from?

maybe you should also read the interview that i have linked and then disproof the findings therin.