Al Qaeda - A time to talk?

[ledhed]

Vlad do you know who Nasser was ? Do you know what Pan Arab Nationalisism is ? Do you understand what it means when someone says " I am A MUSLIM first " And a ( pick a country ) second ?

Again I point you to my comment about you not seeing the forrest because the tree's keep getting in your way .

I have allways aknowlaged that Arabs ..along with almost half the world can come up with reasons to hate westerners in general..I wont bore everyone with the list of genocide colonialism and imperialist practices that the western world used to subjugate the globe at one time or another.

So pointing me to passages in Bin Ladens blatherings is in itself pointless..I already have a very good understanding about why and how radical Islamic and even NORMAL Muslims view the US and the west in general .

As with every lie though you must have a germ of truth in it to sell the lie .
I'll let you go through his ravings and pick out the lies .And the exagerations .

As to Lockerbie...I may have that one confused with another plane that was blown from the sky..I'll take some time to reference it properly when I get done working ..but that was a job by hezbollah and the trail of funding and controll led directly to Iran .


Your focus on Iraq is confusing you . The war on terror is GLOBAL because terrorist are a Global problem . Its easy enough for you to google all the attacks and figure it out ..go ahead .

Iraq is but just ONE battle being fought . On one side you have a western Idea called Democratic rule on the Other you have radical Islam and Islamic rule. The fight for Iraq is between both sides that saw in Iraq a chance to start a revolution in the rest of the Arab and Muslim world ..the US seeks to show that Democracy can work and improve the conditions muslims live under and that self rule is the secret to success and properity and a good future ..the Islamic radicals CANT ever let that succeed and they SEE Iraq as a battle ground to not only REMOVE the Great SATAN and its influence in the region but as a golden oppurtunity to extend the Islamic revolution to Iraq and further . Iran see's the SAME oppurtunty in the south of Iraq and with the Shiite population ( You need to read a bit of history but Iraq was actually three countries at one time and Iran had a empire that included part of Iraq .as a side note Saddam was almost right, Kuwaiit was part of Iraq...his problem was is wasn't called Iraq because the country didn't exist untill the west made it up .).

Again I refer you to looking at the forrest and not the tree..

Somalia and other nations with Islamic populations and unstable central governments are fertile ground for the order the Taliban stile of Religion / government bring . The other Radical targets are Syria and Egypt and of course Saudi Arabia...you can basicaly just pick every country without a Taliban style government.

I already know all the countries currently involved in struggles with their own Islamic radical ...you take some time to google it .

The only really good news so far is that the Sunni based Al Queda and the Shiite based Iran ( alongg with Iran being Persian and not Arab ) . keeps them from a United front..although they share the same goal of a world united under Islamic rule and a Caliphate ...both sides want their version to be leading.

And I didn't miss the fact that the Sunni and the Shiite are ruunning around Iraq killing each other and destabilising the country while the foriegn fighters pick targets among them . And when they have to the US . But divide and conquer is always a usefull strategy and starting a civil war in Iraq and thus making it impossible for the US to have a stable govenment there was always a main objective of Al Queda in iraq.

Its up to the Iraqi people now . Just as Afghanistan is drawing fighters from all accross the world for the Jihad party there..Iraq has its share of outside fighters although they seem to like killing them or turning them over to the US..unlike in Afghanistan where they get a hole to hide in .


BTW its not he first time I have seen that article...and since I have already pointed out many time how and why I understand fundementalist act and the value of havinf a million people willing to kill themselves to make a point....I don't get what you expect me to see in that article ?

As you can see I already KNOW that for political reasons many with an agenda focus on Iraq and but they seem to be missing the point . Iraq is not the problem its part of the solution ONE way or the other .

If all the pundits and nitwits and Democrats and other cut and run types get their way we are in for a long and bloody war . If we unite and show backbone and pupose we put out a huge fire and turn it into a minor blaze .
The Iraqis have their choice we in the wqest have OURS . Either we support a Democratic Iraq..or we support Chaaos and a terrorist haven and the spread of Islamic fundementalism . There is NO middle ground .


only winner and loser .

 

[Cobra_UK]

So you would say that the evilness of those people is genetic or what? Because you say if it wasn't for religion they would find other reasons to explain their passion. That sounds to me like the passion came first and reasons were only looked for afterwards. Where does the passion comes from?

No Vladimir, he’s not saying that some people are genetically evil. People can be passionate about many twisted things, some psychopath sexually tortured and killed a number of innocent little girls in an Hamish town in US. Some cannibal in Russia murdered and eat more than a hundred people. FoolKiller is saying exactly the same thing that I’ve said on post 129, page 7. Religion is being used as an excuse. Religion is being misinterpreted, used and abused to brainwash, doctrine and control weak and impressionable individuals by some extremist leaders. It’s happened in Catholicism, Spanish Inquisition and Christianity, The Crusades. It would be right to say that these leaders are evil. Whether this evil is generated due to genes, childhood, abuse or mental illness is not clear. What is clear is that such people, unfortunately, exist. Some may only get as far as prison or a mental institution. Some can become leaders the most powerful civilisations in the world. Hitler is a very good example.

What I'm saying is that we should not blame Islam for Al Qaeda. Blame those people. Blame those leaders. Blame Al Qaeda, Hamas, IRA, Fatah, and other factions like them. They are the evil, not the religion. By generalising and discriminating against Muslims or Muslim nations we are actually making these extremist leaders more powerful. These extremists are very few compared to how many people live on this planet. We must keep them in minority and not generalise and discriminate against Muslims in general. Muslims are not a minority. These extremist leaders would love nothing more than to spark a Holy War between Muslims and the rest of the world. If we continue on our path we will be playing right into their hands.

Terrorists are not just Muslim, one would be stupid to believe such a thing. Terrorists that attack civilians are however evil and Terrorism the lowest form of conflict. Terrorism is a war crime against humanity, much like ethnic cleansing. Killing innocent women and children is evil.

 

[ledhed]

Some ( in the Islamic world ) would say using Islam to preach hate and recruit Jihadist and suicide bombers and other martyrs is in itself a crime against not only humanity but a crime against Islam itself and a great evil .


But then they would dissapear or be shot ...or just beheaded on u tube.

 

[FoolKiller]

so you would say that the evilness of those people is genetic or what? because you say if it wasn't for religion they would find other reasons to explain their passion. that sounds to me like the passion came first and reasons were only looked for afterwards. where does the passion comes from?

Talk about putting words in my mouth. I never said they were evil people, but that they were passionatley motivated to act by men with an agenda. Those men use religion, much the same way the Catholic church used it for the Crusades. If religion never existed I am sure those men would find something else that can inspire passion in people, much like Hitler did during WWII.

The debate is over whether this is being motivated by religion, and the answer is yes. No matter how you point out that these actions would still happen and people would still be motivated if religion didn't exist the fact is that it does exist and is being used.

maybe you should also read the interview that i have linked and then disproof the findings therin.

Well, I am assuming you mean the amconmag.com link?

This "researcher" has a serious problem with his research. You can't interview a suicide bomber about their motivations because they are dead. If he manages to interview a suicide bomber before they act then he has ruined his credibility by creating serious ethical implications by essentially aiding in terrorism and murder.

From how I read it he is mostly interviewing others from within the terrorist group who, according to him, even have albums. Yep, the guy who keeps a scrapbook of death is a credible source. Any good researcher will tell you that this is not a reliable source of information and is biased at best.

Further on he discusses some of Osama's speeches. He admits they are 40-50 pages long and says that he starts by discussing American troops and then he says that later in he discusses American invasion (I'm paraphrasing here). Great! He admitted, by omission, that he is picking and choosing his data. He summarized two paragraphs out of 40-50 pages? What did he leave out? Possibly the parts where Osama discusses how American troops are here because we want to wipe out all Muslims and have declared Jihad or any of the other religious implications that Osama gives in his speeches? I notice he also left out the speeches we see from Islamic political leaders calling for the heads of infidel Westerners and encouraging the terrorists to keep up the fight.

The only point the man had was about the Tamil Tigers. Some could go as far as to argue that they are fighting for secesstion, but I am not one of them. Their tactics against civilians and in abducting children puts them in the terrorist category for me.

However, just because they invented the suicide bomb vest does not mean that all suicide bombers are politically motivated. They are the result of a long political struggle.

Islamic terrorists are the result of a long religious struggle. Take away all the western troops and you still have those that are kidnapping Israeli athletes and bombing McDonald's (or Sbarro Pizzaria) because it represents a capitalistic ideal that they don't agree with in Islam.

 

[Swift]

except for a bomb attack on a hotel in kenia which was owned by an israeli and that killed two israelis and a launch of a missile at an airplane headed for israel that thankfully failed to hit its target, there are no known attacks that have actually taken place in israel.

if you can come up with one i'll take that back.

abducting Israeli soldiers and launching thousands of rockets into northern Israel by Hezbollah.

i've mentioned two or three in my first post at you, but if you want i can list them again:
Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine
Palestine Liberation Front
Popular Resistance Committees

And they are trying to liberate from who? They are resisting who? The Israelis? Why? Oh, yeah, because they're JEWISH! They are fighting over what they consider their Holy land.

it is very sad, but also very true.

Can you prove that with statistics?

 

[Danoff]

if islam was the sole motivation of all those terrorists, then i wonder why not every faithful muslim is trying to kill us!?

Islam is not the sole motivation of all terrorists. But it is the main motivation behind the terrorists we're after. The reason not every faithful muslim is trying to kill us is because not every faithful muslim interprets their religion in the same way. That doesn't mean that Islam is not the major motivation behind the terrorists we're trying to kill.

i posted one such statement in the part that was directed at swift:
"Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us — our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people." and that was even one of the NON-SECULAR ISLAMIC groups that is terrorizing israel.

First of all, different conflict. Second of all, are you seriously trying to tell me that arabs are pissed at Israel for strictly non-religious reasons?

those were all terrorist groups and i don't think that the question if they used suicidal methods or not bears any relevance. i'm pretty sure there are also non-suicidal islamic terrorists...

Suicidal methods bear a lot of relevance, as religion offers them a means to justify suicide. You're going ot have a much harder time convincing an atheist to strap on a vest full of explosives or fly a plane into a building. Religious folks, on the otherhand, can be given incentives to kill themselves.

like having their own state?! or is that an absurd reason? its the same reason the IRA or the ETA fought for.

Why do they want their own state? What is it that prevents them from living side-by-side with others in the region?

allright, there are thousands of others still.

Post them.

because if you want to fight terrorism in a way that removes it entirely, you have to know why poeple become terrorists.

We're fighting Al-Qaeda. The best way to understand their motivations is to listen to the religious crap they spew on each of their videos explaining why we are the great satan.

now as i pointed out in the part directed at swift, religion isn't even the most important factor.

Tell that to the guys blowing up the mosques. Tell that to the folks screaming ALAAAAAAAHHHHHH as a plane full of infidels crashes.

of course you can continue to fight against terror in the way its done at the moment, but as iraq shows that won't stop it.

We didn't go into Iraq to fight terrorism directly. We went into Iraq to influence the region. It is yet to be seen whether that will work because it is yet to be seen whether we can set up a successful Iraqi government.

 

[Cobra_UK]

Talk about putting words in my mouth. I never said they were evil people, but that they were passionatley motivated to act by men with an agenda. Those men use religion, much the same way the Catholic church used it for The Crusades. If religion never existed I am sure those men would find something else that can inspire passion in people, much like Hitler did during WWII.

The debate is over whether this is being motivated by religion, and the answer is yes. No matter how you point out that these actions would still happen and people would still be motivated if religion didn't exist the fact is that it does exist and is being used.

No Vladimir, he’s not saying that some people are genetically evil. People can be passionate about many twisted things, some psychopath sexually tortured and killed a number of innocent little girls in an Hamish town in US. Some cannibal in Russia murdered and eat more than a hundred people. FoolKiller saying exactly the same thing that I’ve said on post 129, page 7. Religion is being used as an excuse. Religion is being misinterpreted, used and abused to brainwash, doctrine and control weak and impressionable individuals by some extremist leaders. It’s happened in Catholicism, Spanish Inquisition and Christianity, The Crusades. It would be right to say that these leaders are evil. Whether this evil is generated due to genes, childhood, abuse or mental illness is not clear. What is clear is that such people, unfortunately, exist. Some may only get as far as prison or a mental institution. Some can become leaders the most powerful civilisations in the world. Hitler is a very good example.

The debate is whether communications should be initiated with Al Qaeda to give them a chance to settle their differences diplomatically. NOT if this terrorism is sparked by religion. AND, NO it's not sparked by religion, religion is being used as a catalyst, and excuse, a tool.

Also FoolKiller, if you're going to copy things I've posted in a post shortly after mine, like The Crusades and Hitler, have the decency to quote me. OH, and if you're going to copy me at least do a good job. Christianity was responsible for the Crusades, not Catholicism. It's amazing just how many people on this thread don't have a clue about history and facts. 90% of this thread is based on pure assumption, misinformation and insecurity. Some of THE very things that spark conflict and war.

 

[Danoff]

The debate is whether communications should be initiated with Al Qaeda to give them a chance to settle their differences diplomatically. NOT if this terrorism is sparked by religion.

We settled the first issue. At this point, everyone knows that to initiating communications with Al Qaeda would be defeat. We're bored of rehashing that so we morphed this thread into a discussion about whether terrorism is sparked by religion (because so many of them are religiously motivated).

AND, NO it's not sparked by religion, religion is being used as a catalyst, and excuse, a tool.

Care to back that up with facts rather than just spouting "pure assumption".

Christianity was responsible for the Crusades

Are you sure it wasn't just being used as a "catalyst"?

 

[Cobra_UK]

By the way, Osama Bin laden has a crush on Whitney Houston , he always has. He even at times considered having Bobby Brown killed. Osama Bin Laden loves US sitcoms, and especially some of it's blockbuster films. He was an avid reader of Playboy, for the articles only, of course. He also enjoys a lot of other western exports. But if Osama Bin Laden is not a lunatic, and just a concerned and true Muslim who fears for the intrusion of the western culture into Islam and tarnishing it, WHY DOES HE LIKE WESTERN CULTURE SO MUCH? WHY DOES HE EMBRACE THE VERY CULTURE HE APPARENTLY HATES AND SEES AS AN INSULT TO ISLAM?

Perhaps he wants to make himself a place in history that will never be forgotten. Perhaps he's crazy. Who knows… I don't have the answer for you.

I don't have to back up, the above because it's fact. It's part of a biography by someone that was very close to him. If you had any of that grey matter, danoff, you may want to do some research. There are countless terrorism activities today and across history that had nothing to do with religion. Again, I don't have to back that up either, do some research and you see for yourself. Or you can continue believing in your views only and ignoring anything else, or anyone that conflicts with them. It's called closed thinking and it's one of the main things that leads to extremism. Before you say I'm spouting "pure assumptions", get a clue, some good willed advice. Or you can continue as you are. Not my problem.

 

[FoolKiller]

Also FoolKiller, if you're going to copy things I've posted in a post shortly after mine, like The Crusades and Hitler, have the decency to quote me.

I apologize but I was typing that while you posted yours. See, I am at work and so many times a post must be minimized while I do my job, which comes first. I didn't mean to appear to be copying you.

OH, and if you're going to copy me at least do a good job. Christianity was responsible for the Crusades, not Catholicism.

Sorry, I assumed that Pope sanctioned military actions could be attributed to Catholicism and getting picky about trying to distinguish between Catholics and Christians is something I didn't want to take the time to define, especially since my Catholic wife will ramble on for hours about how Catholics are Christians. She would go on to lecture you on getting your facts straight that Protestants and Catholics are both Christians.

However, you are correct, not all of the crusades were Pope sanctioned or ordered, just a couple.

Somebody is snippy today.

 

[Cobra_UK]

Somebody is snippy today.

I've just gone over my post and I was a bit harsh on you FoolKiller. Sorry.

EDIT: You have to admit that a post shortly after mine mentioning 2 very specific things I did, might make me a bit dubious. Please understand I'm not calling you a liar, just that the coincidence threw me off a bit. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Danoff]

If you had any of that grey matter, danoff, you may want to do some research.

I see you're well adept at keeping things civil. Very mature, I'm glad to be talking to someone with a level head and a rational approach to things rather than someone who just gets pissed when someone disagrees and starts name calling.

There are countless terrorism activities today and across history that had nothing to do with terrorism.

Look, just admit that the US has been dragged into a religious war and eliminate the headache for yourself.

Again, I don't have to back that up either, do some research and you see for yourself.

I love the hypocrisy. "Go do research danoff!!! Oh me? No I don't have to. My statements are self evident."

Or you can continue believing in your views only and ignoring anything else, or anyone that conflicts with them. It's called closed thinking and it's one of the main things that leads to extremism.

Would you rather have an open mind than a closed one? The open mind is the one without convictions, without thought, without merit. The open mind is the one that puts a rational argument and an irrational argument on a level playing feild. I'd rather have a logical mind than an open one.

 

[Cobra_UK]

Yes, danoff, if you don't belive me, do some research and see if I'm stating facts or fiction. Excuse me, but I never said my statements are self evident. I'm simply posting what I believe through my research, I never said that I don't need to back up my posts, it's just that I can't be bothered. If you want to learn do it yourself.

US may not yet have been dragged into a religious war. With some clever diplomacy and political and media conferences US, UK AND UN can continue to ensure that this does not escalate into a Holy War.

It won't help if idiots go around saying this is all due to Muslims, Islam. Generalizing, discriminating and invading Muslim countries will only make matters worse. THAT IS HOW IT BECOMES A HOLY WAR. The choice is ours, we recklessly continue on the path we have chosen, spark a Holy War and face the possibility of a large scale conflict, nuclear incidents and a long lasting culture of hatred we may instill in the Muslim psyche.

danoff, I didn't name called you once, if my comment of "grey matter" was offensive then I'm sorry. I'm sure you made up for it by calling me (in a roundabout way) immature and hypocrite. Actually I think that's name calling. You've chosen the closed mind approach and ridicule instead of investigating and open mind. Good for you. You think that makes me pissed, you accuse me of being pissed at you? Oh dear how mislead you are. You and your actions are no problem of mine. If you were my problem, than maybe I'd be pissed.

 

[Danoff]

Yes, danoff, if you don't belive me, do some research and see if I'm stating facts or fiction. Excuse me, but I never said my statements are self evident. I'm simply posting what I believe through my research, I never said that I don't need to back up my posts, it's just that I can't be bothered. If you want to learn do it yourself.

How about not making claims you're unwilling to back up.

US may not yet have been dragged into a religious war. With some clever diplomacy and political and media conferences US, UK AND UN can continue to ensure that this does not escalate into a Holy War.

Wake up buddy, it was a holy war long before our military got invovled. We were attacked for religious reasons on 9/11 (see Osama's justification for proof), as a result, we were invovled in a holy war as of 9/12 when we started to figure out what the hell happened.

It won't help if idiots go around saying this is all due to Muslims, Islam.

It is all due to Muslims, Islam. Don't mistake that statement for the following similar, but incorrect statement: "It's due to all Muslims".

It's all due to Muslims? Yes.
It's due to all Muslims? No.

The choice is ours, we recklessly continue on the path we have chosen, spark a Holy War and face the possibility of a large scale conflict, nuclear incidents and a long lasting culture of hatred we may instill in the Muslim psyche.

Wikipedia's entry on "Holy War" lists Jihad. We were in a holy war before we even knew it. At this point, I don't think there is any way we can make them hate us more. We've been dragged into a holy war and now we have to win it.

I didn't name called you once, if my comment of "grey matter" was offensive then I'm sorry. I'm sure you made up for it by calling me (in a roundabout way) immature and hypocrite. Actually I think that's name calling. You've chosen the closed mind approach and ridicule instead of investigating and open mind. Good for you. You think that makes me pissed, you accuse me of being pissed at you? Oh dear how mislead you are. You and your actions are no problem of mine. If you were my problem, than maybe I'd be pissed.

It is immature to resort to calling someone stupid... And it is hypocritical to claim that your statements are facts that don't require proof while mine aren't and do. I didn't say anything that isn't true.

 

[Cobra_UK]

How about not making claims you're unwilling to back up.

I can post my opinion, or claim as you eloquently put it, how ever I want, whether I'm willing to back it up or not, on your request. This does not make me a hypocrite, nor does it mean that what I say is gospel. I never claimed it to be. I couldn't give a rat's arse if you belive me, or not. It's my right to voice my opinion. It's called free speech.

Wake up buddy, it was a Holy War long before our military got involved. We were attacked for religious reasons on 9/11 (see Osama's justification for proof), as a result, we were involved in a Holy War as of 9/12 when we started to figure out what the hell happened.

Just because ONE MAN, or even 50 men, say they have the whole Muslim following behind him/them and it's a Holy War, it doesn't make it so. Maybe US should have asked him to "back up his statements". Perhaps the clever man he is, he knew he'd be believed due to the magnitude of his "statement". He was right. UK has had IRA to deal with for a long time, yes the terrorist organization funded by US money. After ONE attack on US soil, US, all-of-a-sudden, decides it will fight terrorism to the death. US also believes the claim of a video tape of ONE man that it's at war, Holy War. The irony and banality of it all is exasperating.

It is all due to Muslims, Islam. Don't mistake that statement for the following similar, but incorrect statement: "It's due to all Muslims".

It's all due to Muslims? Yes.
It's due to all Muslims? No.

It's not immature to call people stupid, and there are stupid people out there. You don't seem to be stupid, maybe, more like self-centered. I could go on and maybe I could make you understand but I don't really care. I could carry on debating but I don't have time to waste on finding out if you can open your mind long enough to learn a few things. Why should I? I've already tried to explain it to you last post but you're not interested. I've posted my opinions and I hope someone finds them a useful insight. This is where I leave you to your own devices danoff.

 

[Danoff]

I can post my opinion, or claim as you eloquently put it, how ever I want, whether I'm willing to back it up or not, on your request. This does not make me a hypocrite, nor does it mean that what I say is gospel. I never claimed it to be. I couldn't give a rat's arse if you belive me, or not. It's my right to voice my opinion. It's called free speech.

It sounds to me like you didn't really want to come to the opinions board and engage in a discussion. It sounds to me like you wanted to have your opinion, get to voice it, and not have to listen to any responses.

Do us all a favor and take it somewhere else. This board is for discussions.

(btw: You have no idea how many people have the same misconception about the opinions board. They figure "opinions don't need support right? I'm entitled to my opinion and they're all equally valid right?" Wrong.)

Just because ONE MAN, or even 50 men, say they have the whole Muslim following behind him/them and it's a Holy War, it doesn't make it so.

Stick with the discussion. We're engaged in a holy war with Al Qaeda. Not the entire muslim community (which was the intent of my "All muslims? No." statement). There is no question that Osama speaks for Al Qaeda.

It's not immature to call people stupid, and there are stupid people out there. You don't seem to be stupid, maybe, more like self-centered.

I accept your apology.

This is where I leave you to your own devices danoff.

Thank you. If you don't want to have a discussion in the future, please feel free not to come to the opinions forum.

 

[Cobra_UK]

Wait for it, I've just read your super quick reply, which you've obviously put some thought in, before I set off to a friend house. I've changed my mind, you'll make a good example.

I apologized to you? Is this in your dreams? You're funny. You're a joke. I'll come in this forum, and in this section and on this thread when I like, and post when I like, and a joke like you will not stop me or piss me off. It may make me laugh though.

Let me make sure, I reiterate myself. You are self-centered and well, honestly a joke. You obviously like to have the last word and make discussions personal. Trying to end the discussion you've created by showing how you've "seen me off" and "told me not to come back again" was very entertaining. I could have hours of fun ripping into you, but I have other engagements for now. Having a beer with a friend and playing a few 2 player races will be more entertaining that continuing this "debate" right now. I'll check in tomorrow danoff, promise, I'm sure you're looking forward to it. Tata.

 

[Danoff]

You are self-centered and well, honestly a joke. You obviously like to have the last word and make discussions personal.

If only I had more room in my sig... priceless.

 

[Swift]

I can post my opinion, or claim as you eloquently put it, how ever I want, whether I'm willing to back it up or not, on your request. This does not make me a hypocrite, nor does it mean that what I say is gospel.

Actually, it does and nothing of what anyone says here is gospel. It's either fact, opinion or an opinion based on facts.

It's not immature to call people stupid, and there are stupid people out there. You don't seem to be stupid, maybe, more like self-centered. I could go on and maybe I could make you understand but I don't really care. I could carry on debating but I don't have time to waste on finding out if you can open your mind long enough to learn a few things. Why should I? I've already tried to explain it to you last post but you're not interested. I've posted my opinions and I hope someone finds them a useful insight. This is where I leave you to your own devices danoff.

If you just want to post your wonderful opinions without having to back them up to the closed minded, self centered members here, I suggest you start your own website or possibly blog. This is a FORUM where issues are discussed. If your not interested in a discussion or just plain don't have the stamina for it, stay out. Simple, right?

 

[vladimir]

Vlad do you know who Nasser was ? Do you know what Pan Arab Nationalisism is ? Do you understand what it means when someone says " I am A MUSLIM first " And a ( pick a country ) second ?

Again I point you to my comment about you not seeing the forrest because the tree's keep getting in your way .

I have allways aknowlaged that Arabs ..along with almost half the world can come up with reasons to hate westerners in general..I wont bore everyone with the list of genocide colonialism and imperialist practices that the western world used to subjugate the globe at one time or another.

So pointing me to passages in Bin Ladens blatherings is in itself pointless..I already have a very good understanding about why and how radical Islamic and even NORMAL Muslims view the US and the west in general .

As with every lie though you must have a germ of truth in it to sell the lie .
I'll let you go through his ravings and pick out the lies .And the exagerations .

so you do see that there are other reasons that spark terrorism while islam is merely something that unites a certain group of terrorists?

and in what way does pan arab nationalism threaten the united states or the western world in general?

As to Lockerbie...I may have that one confused with another plane that was blown from the sky..I'll take some time to reference it properly when I get done working ..but that was a job by hezbollah and the trail of funding and controll led directly to Iran .

ok, still, whats the big deal here? we know that some nations support terrorists. but we're discussing the reasons behind that...

Your focus on Iraq is confusing you . The war on terror is GLOBAL because terrorist are a Global problem . Its easy enough for you to google all the attacks and figure it out ..go ahead .

Iraq is but just ONE battle being fought . On one side you have a western Idea called Democratic rule on the Other you have radical Islam and Islamic rule. The fight for Iraq is between both sides that saw in Iraq a chance to start a revolution in the rest of the Arab and Muslim world ..the US seeks to show that Democracy can work and improve the conditions muslims live under and that self rule is the secret to success and properity and a good future ..the Islamic radicals CANT ever let that succeed and they SEE Iraq as a battle ground to not only REMOVE the Great SATAN and its influence in the region but as a golden oppurtunity to extend the Islamic revolution to Iraq and further . Iran see's the SAME oppurtunty in the south of Iraq and with the Shiite population ( You need to read a bit of history but Iraq was actually three countries at one time and Iran had a empire that included part of Iraq .as a side note Saddam was almost right, Kuwaiit was part of Iraq...his problem was is wasn't called Iraq because the country didn't exist untill the west made it up .).

Again I refer you to looking at the forrest and not the tree..

i'm focusing as much on iraq, iran and israel here as all others do...

a few posts back i asked you guys to come up with any terrorist attacks on a nation that was not involved in any way with ongoing struggles.
so please enlighten me on the other hotspots in this global war against western ideas.

Somalia and other nations with Islamic populations and unstable central governments are fertile ground for the order the Taliban stile of Religion / government bring . The other Radical targets are Syria and Egypt and of course Saudi Arabia...you can basicaly just pick every country without a Taliban style government.

I already know all the countries currently involved in struggles with their own Islamic radical ...you take some time to google it .

if you already know them all it would be very easy for you to point them out and i could check it out.

The only really good news so far is that the Sunni based Al Queda and the Shiite based Iran ( alongg with Iran being Persian and not Arab ) . keeps them from a United front..although they share the same goal of a world united under Islamic rule and a Caliphate ...both sides want their version to be leading.

And I didn't miss the fact that the Sunni and the Shiite are ruunning around Iraq killing each other and destabilising the country while the foriegn fighters pick targets among them . And when they have to the US . But divide and conquer is always a usefull strategy and starting a civil war in Iraq and thus making it impossible for the US to have a stable govenment there was always a main objective of Al Queda in iraq.

of course they don't want the US to interfere, thats the whole point of it and that is what gives them lots of support.

BTW its not he first time I have seen that article...and since I have already pointed out many time how and why I understand fundementalist act and the value of havinf a million people willing to kill themselves to make a point....I don't get what you expect me to see in that article ?

so you're saying you've made up your mind and absolutely nothing, not even the largest investigation into that very matter is going to change it?

and whom would you suggest me to trust, some guy on the internet who has read a few blogs and fatwas and articles or some boffin who has done research into all suicide attacks ever recorded?

this discussion is not about left vs. right and their ideas, its about what causes people to become terrorists and how can we effectively fight against terrorism.

As you can see I already KNOW that for political reasons many with an agenda focus on Iraq and but they seem to be missing the point . Iraq is not the problem its part of the solution ONE way or the other .

If all the pundits and nitwits and Democrats and other cut and run types get their way we are in for a long and bloody war . If we unite and show backbone and pupose we put out a huge fire and turn it into a minor blaze .
The Iraqis have their choice we in the wqest have OURS . Either we support a Democratic Iraq..or we support Chaaos and a terrorist haven and the spread of Islamic fundementalism . There is NO middle ground .

weren't the bombings in spain and england done in revenge to these countries support in iraq? doesn't that suggest that invading iraq wasn't really the most effective strategy to fight terrorism when that very action has caused even more terrorism?

i'm again using iraq here because its a very obvious example and i'm still waiting for you to introduce me to all the other battlefields...

No Vladimir, he’s not saying that some people are genetically evil. People can be passionate about many twisted things, some psychopath sexually tortured and killed a number of innocent little girls in an Hamish town in US. Some cannibal in Russia murdered and eat more than a hundred people. FoolKiller is saying exactly the same thing that I’ve said on post 129, page 7. Religion is being used as an excuse. Religion is being misinterpreted, used and abused to brainwash, doctrine and control weak and impressionable individuals by some extremist leaders. It’s happened in Catholicism, Spanish Inquisition and Christianity, The Crusades. It would be right to say that these leaders are evil. Whether this evil is generated due to genes, childhood, abuse or mental illness is not clear. What is clear is that such people, unfortunately, exist. Some may only get as far as prison or a mental institution. Some can become leaders the most powerful civilisations in the world. Hitler is a very good example.

What I'm saying is that we should not blame Islam for Al Qaeda. Blame those people. Blame those leaders. Blame Al Qaeda, Hamas, IRA, Fatah, and other factions like them. They are the evil, not the religion. By generalising and discriminating against Muslims or Muslim nations we are actually making these extremist leaders more powerful. These extremists are very few compared to how many people live on this planet. We must keep them in minority and not generalise and discriminate against Muslims in general. Muslims are not a minority. These extremist leaders would love nothing more than to spark a Holy War between Muslims and the rest of the world. If we continue on our path we will be playing right into their hands.

thats exactly what i am talking about and sadly ernough it happens in this very thread.

Talk about putting words in my mouth. I never said they were evil people, but that they were passionatley motivated to act by men with an agenda. Those men use religion, much the same way the Catholic church used it for the Crusades. If religion never existed I am sure those men would find something else that can inspire passion in people, much like Hitler did during WWII.

The debate is over whether this is being motivated by religion, and the answer is yes. No matter how you point out that these actions would still happen and people would still be motivated if religion didn't exist the fact is that it does exist and is being used.

isn't it a bit illogical to assume that something that you acknowledge to be interchangeable should be the main reason?

Well, I am assuming you mean the amconmag.com link?

This "researcher" has a serious problem with his research. You can't interview a suicide bomber about their motivations because they are dead. If he manages to interview a suicide bomber before they act then he has ruined his credibility by creating serious ethical implications by essentially aiding in terrorism and murder.

From how I read it he is mostly interviewing others from within the terrorist group who, according to him, even have albums. Yep, the guy who keeps a scrapbook of death is a credible source. Any good researcher will tell you that this is not a reliable source of information and is biased at best.

doesn't this conclusion also apply to your side of the argument?

Further on he discusses some of Osama's speeches. He admits they are 40-50 pages long and says that he starts by discussing American troops and then he says that later in he discusses American invasion (I'm paraphrasing here). Great! He admitted, by omission, that he is picking and choosing his data. He summarized two paragraphs out of 40-50 pages? What did he leave out? Possibly the parts where Osama discusses how American troops are here because we want to wipe out all Muslims and have declared Jihad or any of the other religious implications that Osama gives in his speeches? I notice he also left out the speeches we see from Islamic political leaders calling for the heads of infidel Westerners and encouraging the terrorists to keep up the fight.

you can't someone expect to quote a 50 page document in an interview, can you?
and i've read the text that ledhead posted and that could be summed up in one paragraph because the author was endlessly repeating itself.

The only point the man had was about the Tamil Tigers. Some could go as far as to argue that they are fighting for secesstion, but I am not one of them. Their tactics against civilians and in abducting children puts them in the terrorist category for me.

However, just because they invented the suicide bomb vest does not mean that all suicide bombers are politically motivated. They are the result of a long political struggle.

and there hasn't been any long political struggle in israel, iraq or the whole middle east?

Islamic terrorists are the result of a long religious struggle. Take away all the western troops and you still have those that are kidnapping Israeli athletes and bombing McDonald's (or Sbarro Pizzaria) because it represents a capitalistic ideal that they don't agree with in Islam.

i'm not saying that there are absolutely no islamic terrorists which are inspired by twisted preachings. it plays a big role for sure, but is it the main factor? will a stable person living in a comfortable environment become a fundamentalist? if you teach someone that the western world is evil, you need some examples. and what would you rather get armed and fighting, sauda arabia implementing the sharia in saudi arabia or saudi arabia invading your hometown?

abducting Israeli soldiers and launching thousands of rockets into northern Israel by Hezbollah.

the last time i checked, the hezbollah was not al quaeda.
but if you offer me something confirming the contrary i will believe you.

And they are trying to liberate from who? They are resisting who? The Israelis? Why? Oh, yeah, because they're JEWISH! They are fighting over what they consider their Holy land.

they're doing this because they want their own government. what is so hard to understand about this concept?

why do the kurdish want their own state in the north of iraq, was saddam hussein jewish?
why do the basques want self determination, because spain is too [insert religion here.]

and you have still not explained to me how these four secular palestinian terrorist groups fit into this holy war.

Can you prove that with statistics?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bombings_in_Iraq_since_2003

Islam is not the sole motivation of all terrorists. But it is the main motivation behind the terrorists we're after. The reason not every faithful muslim is trying to kill us is because not every faithful muslim interprets their religion in the same way. That doesn't mean that Islam is not the major motivation behind the terrorists we're trying to kill.

allright. so lets fight al quaeda. we can of course try to catch them, try to kill them, launch full scale attacks after their bombings, but that way we would only fight the symptoms. now, while there is nothing wrong with fighting the symptoms, only doing that will result in an neverending fight. to stop it entirely, you have to fight the cause.
now we can't launch a holy war on islam really, because i fear that would be quite misunderstood by the muslims...
and thats where it becomes interesting to find out what drives people to become fundamentalists, what makes them support al quaeda.
the war on iraq showed exactly was osama bin ladin was preaching, a western superpower invading a muslim nation and occupying it. that drove a lot of people towards al quaeda because it looked like bin ladin was right in his allegations.

First of all, different conflict. Second of all, are you seriously trying to tell me that arabs are pissed at Israel for strictly non-religious reasons?

not all arabs, but a large part of them and you asked for secular terrorists.

Suicidal methods bear a lot of relevance, as religion offers them a means to justify suicide. You're going ot have a much harder time convincing an atheist to strap on a vest full of explosives or fly a plane into a building. Religious folks, on the otherhand, can be given incentives to kill themselves.

you will have an equally hard time to convince someone who has a comfortable live to commit suicide. someone whose live is already ****ed up does really feel like giving up too much...

Why do they want their own state? What is it that prevents them from living side-by-side with others in the region?

what rights to the palestinians in the occupied zones have right now? can they vote?
even the basques blow things up and they do have the right to vote...

Post them.

do you want me to post names of single secular terrorists?
i have given you a few organizations which have from a dozen to a thousand members. do you want to start a who can name more terrorists competition?

We're fighting Al-Qaeda. The best way to understand their motivations is to listen to the religious crap they spew on each of their videos explaining why we are the great satan.

allright, in what way does that bring you to any feasible solution?

Tell that to the guys blowing up the mosques. Tell that to the folks screaming ALAAAAAAAHHHHHH as a plane full of infidels crashes.

i would, but i have yet to meet any such person.

We didn't go into Iraq to fight terrorism directly. We went into Iraq to influence the region. It is yet to be seen whether that will work because it is yet to be seen whether we can set up a successful Iraqi government.

wow, another reason to add to the already long list of reasons to go to iraq, it seems you come up with a new one every full moon. anyway, until now the impact on the region hasn't been very positive, or am i missing something?

 

[Swift]

the last time i checked, the hezbollah was not al quaeda.
but if you offer me something confirming the contrary i will believe you.

I thought we were talking about terrorisim in general against Israel. But OK.

they're doing this because they want their own government. what is so hard to understand about this concept?

Nothing, except the fact that the Muslim nations of the world told ALL the muslims to leave Palestine so they could obliterate Israel. Well, they failed and of course the muslims have been mad at the Israelis all this time when it was their own religious people told them to leave. The Israeli government was not the ones that forced the muslims out of Israel.

why do the kurdish want their own state in the north of iraq, was saddam hussein jewish?
why do the basques want self determination, because spain is too [insert religion here.]

Sadam Hussein is insane. I don't know much about the Spanish conflict you're talking about.

and you have still not explained to me how these four secular palestinian terrorist groups fit into this holy war.

What started the conflict to which they "resist"? Anytime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bombings_in_Iraq_since_2003

Uh...in Iraq. Ok, I'll certainly go along with that. However, the US is involved in a global war on terror so how about some numbers saying that global terrorist acts have skyrocketed. Maybe, just maybe they have. But they haven't hit the US or UK(as far as I know since 7/7) So either what we're doing is very effectiver or purely coincidental.

 

[ledhed]

We settled the first issue. At this point, everyone knows that to initiating communications with Al Qaeda would be defeat. We're bored of rehashing that so we morphed this thread into a discussion about whether terrorism is sparked by religion (because so many of them are religiously motivated).



Care to back that up with facts rather than just spouting "pure assumption".



Are you sure it wasn't just being used as a "catalyst"?

The Crusades were sparked by trade issues annd political issues with religion being used as the tool to create motivation without using vast sums of cash . And here we have people claiming others have no clue of history ?

Religion is just another" tool " used to lead the sheep . That is historical fact . You want to unite a region ..convert the people to the same religion ...marry off your daughter so the other leader will convert...

Thousands of examples throughout history where religion was used NOT only to manipulate the people but leaders as well .



Danoff just because I used your quote doesn't mean any of the above was aimed at you ..it was just a general shot accross the bow of those living in glass homes throwing rocks around .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra_UK
Yes, danoff, if you don't belive me, do some research and see if I'm stating facts or fiction. Excuse me, but I never said my statements are self evident. I'm simply posting what I believe through my research, I never said that I don't need to back up my posts, it's just that I can't be bothered. If you want to learn do it yourself.

US may not yet have been dragged into a religious war. With some clever diplomacy and political and media conferences US, UK AND UN can continue to ensure that this does not escalate into a Holy War.

It won't help if idiots go around saying this is all due to Muslims, Islam. Generalizing, discriminating and invading Muslim countries will only make matters worse. THAT IS HOW IT BECOMES A HOLY WAR. The choice is ours, we recklessly continue on the path we have chosen, spark a Holy War and face the possibility of a large scale conflict, nuclear incidents and a long lasting culture of hatred we may instill in the Muslim psyche.

danoff, I didn't name called you once, if my comment of "grey matter" was offensive then I'm sorry. I'm sure you made up for it by calling me (in a roundabout way) immature and hypocrite. Actually I think that's name calling. You've chosen the closed mind approach and ridicule instead of investigating and open mind. Good for you. You think that makes me pissed, you accuse me of being pissed at you? Oh dear how mislead you are. You and your actions are no problem of mine. If you were my problem, than maybe I'd be pissed.

The Holy war started back in 1948 when Israel was established . We have been fighting a holy war ever since...you just seemed to have missed it .



Diplomacy has gotten us to this point.
_________________________________

 

[ledhed]

For good old Vladamirs benifit.


I dont want to overwhelm the server because he wont go look for himself so I'll just give him a starting point .

al-Qa'ida (The Base)
Qa‘idat al-Jihad
Islamic Army for the Liberation of the Holy Places
World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders
Islamic Salvation Foundation
Usama bin Laden Network

Al-Qa'ida is multi-national, with members from numerous countries and with a worldwide presence. Senior leaders in the organization are also senior leaders in other terrorist organizations, including those designated by the Department of State as foreign terrorist organizations, such as the Egyptian al-Gama'at al-Islamiyya and the Egyptian al-Jihad. Al-Qa'ida seeks a global radicalization of existing Islamic groups and the creation of radical Islamic groups where none exist.

Al-Qa'ida supports Muslim fighters in Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya, Tajikistan, Somalia, Yemen, and Kosovo. It also trains members of terrorist organizations from such diverse countries as the Philippines, Algeria, and Eritrea.

Al-Qa'ida's goal is to "unite all Muslims and to establish a government which follows the rule of the Caliphs." Bin Laden has stated that the only way to establish the Caliphate is by force. Al-Qa'ida's goal, therefore, is to overthrow nearly all Muslim governments, which are viewed as corrupt, to drive Western influence from those countries, and eventually to abolish state boundaries.

Description

Established by Usama Bin Ladin in the late 1980s to bring together Arabs who fought in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union. Helped finance, recruit, transport, and train Sunni Islamic extremists for the Afghan resistance. Current goal is to establish a pan-Islamic Caliphate throughout the world by working with allied Islamic extremist groups to overthrow regimes it deems “non-Islamic” and expelling Westerners and non-Muslims from Muslim countries–particularly Saudi Arabia. Issued statement under banner of “the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against the Jews and Crusaders” in February 1998, saying it was the duty of all Muslims to kill US citizens—civilian or military—and their allies everywhere. Merged with Egyptian Islamic Jihad (Al-Jihad) in June 2001.

Activities

In 2003, carried out the assault and bombing on 12 May of three expatriate housing complexes in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, that killed 20 and injured 139. Assisted in carrying out the bombings on 16 May in Casablanca, Morocco, of a Jewish center, restaurant, nightclub, and hotel that killed 41 and injured 101. Probably supported the bombing of the J.W. Marriott Hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia, on 5 August that killed 17 and injured 137. Responsible for the assault and bombing on 9 November of a housing complex in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, that killed 17 and injured 100. Conducted the bombings of two synagogues in Istanbul, Turkey, on 15 November that killed 23 and injured 200 and the bombings in Istanbul of the British Consulate and HSBC Bank on 20 November that resulted in 27 dead and 455 injured. Has been involved in some attacks in Afghanistan and Iraq.

In 2002, carried out bombing on 28 November of hotel in Mombasa, Kenya, killing 15 and injuring 40. Probably supported a nightclub bombing in Bali, Indonesia, on 12 October that killed about 180. Responsible for an attack on US military personnel in Kuwait, on 8 October, that killed one US soldier and injured another. Directed a suicide attack on the MV Limburg off the coast of Yemen, on 6 October that killed one and injured four. Carried out a firebombing of a synagogue in Tunisia on 11 April that killed 19 and injured 22. On 11 September 2001, 19 al-Qaida suicide attackers hijacked and crashed four US commercial jets, two into the World Trade Center in New York City, one into the Pentagon near Washington, DC, and a fourth into a field in Shanksville, Pennsylvania, leaving about 3,000 individuals dead or missing. Directed the 12 October 2000 attack on the USS Cole in the port of Aden, Yemen, killing 17 US Navy members, and injuring another 39. Conducted the bombings in August 1998 of the US Embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, that killed at least 301 individuals and injured more than 5,000 others. Claims to have shot down US helicopters and killed US servicemen in Somalia in 1993 and to have conducted three bombings that targeted US troops in Aden, Yemen, in December 1992.

Al-Qaida is linked to the following plans that were disrupted or not carried out: to assassinate Pope John Paul II during his visit to Manila in late 1994, to kill President Clinton during a visit to the Philippines in early 1995, to bomb in midair a dozen US trans-Pacific flights in 1995, and to set off a bomb at Los Angeles International Airport in 1999. Also plotted to carry out terrorist operations against US and Israeli tourists visiting Jordan for millennial celebrations in late 1999. (Jordanian authorities thwarted the planned attacks and put 28 suspects on trial.) In December 2001, suspected al-Qaida associate Richard Colvin Reid attempted to ignite a shoe bomb on a transatlantic flight from Paris to Miami. Attempted to shoot down an Israeli chartered plane with a surface-to-air missile as it departed the Mombasa airport in November 2002.

Strength

Al-Qaida probably has several thousand members and associates. The arrests of senior-level al-Qaida operatives have interrupted some terrorist plots. Also serves as a focal point or umbrella organization for a worldwide network that includes many Sunni Islamic extremist groups, some members of al-Gama’a al-Islamiyya, the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, and the Harakat ul-Mujahidin.

Location/Area of Operation

Al-Qaida has cells worldwide and is reinforced by its ties to Sunni extremist networks. Was based in Afghanistan until Coalition forces removed the Taliban from power in late 2001. Al-Qaida has dispersed in small groups across South Asia, Southeast Asia, and the Middle East and probably will attempt to carry out future attacks against US interests.

External Aid

Al-Qaida maintains moneymaking front businesses, solicits donations from likeminded supporters, and illicitly siphons funds from donations to Muslim charitable organizations. US and international efforts to block al-Qaida funding has hampered the group’s ability to obtain money.


Sources and Resources
DNI Releases Letter from al-Zawahiri to al-Zarqawi, October 11, 2005. "Today the Office of the Director of National Intelligence released a letter between two senior al Qa'ida leaders, Ayman al-Zawahiri and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, that was obtained during counterterrorism operations in Iraq. This lengthy document provides a comprehensive view of al Qa'ida's strategy in Iraq and globally."
Al Qaeda: Profile and Threat Assessment, Congressional Research Service, August 17, 2005
Al Qaeda: Statements and Evolving Ideology, Congressional Research Service, June 20, 2005
Summary of Jose Padilla's Activities with Al Qaeda, as released by the Department of Justice, 1 June 2004.
Text of Al-Zarqawi Message Threatening More Attacks, April 6, 2004
Al-Qaida: The Threat to the United States and Its Allies, testimony of Amb. J. Cofer Black, Coordinator for Counterterrorism, before the House International Relations Committee, April 1, 2004
Pentagon Background Briefing on Al Qaeda Terrorist Network, February 19, 2002.
Attorney General Announces Indictment of Richard Reid, press conference, January 16. "Reid is charged as an al Qaeda-trained terrorist who attempted to destroy American Airlines Flight 63 with explosive devices concealed in his shoes."
Indictment of Richard Reid (PDF), January 16.
Criminal Complaint Against Richard Reid (PDF), January 16.
Al-Qaeda International, Testimony of J.T. Caruso, Acting Assistant Director, CounterTerrorism Division, Federal Bureau of Investigation, December 18, 2001.
Indictment of ZACARIAS MOUSSAOUI for conspiracy to commit acts of terrorism, December 11, 2001
Al Qaeda Training Manual, full translated text
Al Qaeda Training Manual, excerpts in translation, released by the US Department of Justice, December 6, 2001
Cover - Lesson 4
Lesson 5 - Lesson 8
Lesson 9 - Lesson 11
Lesson 12 - End
Osama claims he has nukes By Hamid Mir, Dawn (Pakistan), November 10, 2001. "Osama bin Laden has said that 'we have chemical and nuclear weapons as a deterrent and if America used them against us we reserve the right to use them'."
UK Report on Responsibility for the September 11 Terrorist Attacks issued by the Office of the Prime Minister, October 4, 2001. "Usama Bin Laden and Al Qaida, the terrorist network which he heads, planned and carried out the atrocities on 11 September 2001."
Mujahid Usamah Bin Ladin Talks Exclusively to "NIDA'UL ISLAM" About The New Powder Keg in The Middle East Nida'ul Islam Magazine (Call of Islam) October - November 1996
Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders World Islamic Front Statement 23 February 1998
MIDDLE EAST and SOUTH ASIA PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE Office of the Spokesman June 12, 1998
"Alleged Extremist Plans To Destabilize Gulf" FBIS-NES-95-092 : 10 Feb 1995 [Source: Paris AL-WATAN AL-'ARABI , 10 Feb 95 pp 14-16]
"Story of Attempt to Assassinate Ibn Ladn in Jalalabad" by Jihad Salim al-Watan al-'Arabi, 18 Apr 97 pp 22-23 [Saudi Arabia: Threat to Islamic Activist's Life Seen FBIS-NES-97-092 18 Apr 1997]
Patterns of Global Terrorism 2003 Report

remember now to follow all the above links..they will lead you to more links and those will lead you to even more.

It should keep you busy if you are REALLY interested. I'll give you more so you wont be too bored .


http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/ladin.htm

http://www.emergency.com/cntrter5.htm


Blah blah blah

JIHAD FATWA AGAINST ISRAEL

CASE NO. ISRAEL/M/F50

DATE: 2ND OCTOBER 2000

O' Muslims, the naked aggression and atrocities committed against the people of Palestine, such as killing them, desecrating the Mosque of Al-Aqsa and throwing them out of their land and homes is a violation of the sanctity of Human Beings and their honour which requires an immediate and comprehensive solution including putting the perpetrators of these crimes on trial. The Islamic Decree regarding the occupation of Palestine by the Jews is Jihad for the sake of Allah (swt) and the divine evidence for this from the Qur'an is that Allah (swt) says: " If anyone commits aggression against you retaliate against them in equal manner" [EMQ 2:194].

And this is compulsory upon the nearest Muslims to them and a burden upon Muslims worldwide to support and help.

O' Muslims, this Fatwa is a call to fight against Israeli forces, their government, Israeli Embassies, military airports and jets etc... as they are legitimate targets for Muslims wherever they may be. The divine evidence for this from the Qur'an is that Allah (swt) says: "And kill them wherever you meet them and turn them out from where they have turned you out" [EMQ 2: 191].

However, It is prohibited to target any non-military or innocent Jews because this would be considered to be murder and therefore aggression against the sanctity of Human life. The divine evidence for this from the Qur'an is that Allah (swt) says: "Fight for the sake of God those who fight you and do not do transgression for Allah loves not the transgressors" [EMQ 2:190]

The Muslims in Palestine have appealed for help therefore it is an obligation upon Muslims worldwide to respond and help verbally, physically, financially or militarily. The divine evidence for this from the Qur'an is that Allah (swt) says: "If they seek your support you must support them " [EMQ 8:72].

And for Allah (swt) saying: "And spend for the cause of Allah (i.e. ihad) and do not contribute to your destruction by your miserliness" [EMQ 2:195]

And "Why must you not fight for the sake of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill treated and oppressed, men, women and children whose cry is: our Lord rescue us from those people who are oppressors and raise for us from thee one who will protect, and raise for us from thee one who will help" [EMQ 4:75]

There is no prohibition to be kind to those who do not fight against you rather it is prohibited to be kind to those who fight you. The divine evidence for this from the Qur'an is that Allah (swt) says: "God only forbids you with regard to those who fight you for your faith and drive you out of your homes and support others in driving you out from turning to them for friendship and protection or to be kind to them and whoever does so indeed they are the oppressors (i.e. Sinners)" [EMQ 60:9]

The above divine evidences are a clear and a decisive verdict for the atrocities, which have been taking place in Palestine over the last fifty-three years. Therefore Muslims are obliged to fight against their enemies and to help each other. In addition the Islamic verdict regarding Prime Minister Barak and his commanders is for them to be put on trial in any independent Islamic court for their crimes and for capital punishment to be applied. Allah (SWT) says: "This is a declaration to the people so that they may be warned" All praise is for Allah (swt) who alone we obey, worship, follow and to whom we submit, ask forgiveness and depend upon.

And Allah (swt) says: "Indeed Allah has traded with the believers their lives and wealth in return for paradise if they fight for the cause of Allah whether they are martyred or victorious and this is a promise from Allah which he has made a duty upon himself clearly recorded in the Torah, the Bible and the Qur'an. And who is more faithful in his promise than Allah; so enjoy this good news for your allegiance and loyalty to your Lord for this is the greatest achievement…" [EMQ 9:111]

http://www.emergency.com/2000/fatwa2000.htm

25 Nov 2000-EmergencyNet News Summary of Terrorist Events Involving Spain and the ETA:
01 Oct 2000 to 25 Nov 2000

02 Oct 00: British Extremist Group Issues New "JIHAD FATWA AGAINST ISRAEL"

22 Sep 2000 - series of EmergencyNet News Reports Concerning A Rocket Attack on the Head-
quarters of British MI6 Intelligence Service -- 20 to 22 Sep 00



09 June 2000-09:30CDTEmergencyNet News Reports of Terrorist Assassination of British Military Attaché in Greece; 08/09 June 2000

23 Dec 99-09:30 CST- Parcel Bombs From Germany? (Article with graphic and
reference to FBI warning)

24 Sep 99-09:30CDT-Series of EmergencyNet News Real-Time Reports Concerning Multiple
Explosions in Russia - 31 Aug 99 to 24 Sep 99

05/08/99-09:35CDT- UK Think-Tank Releases Survey On "WMD"Terrorism

04/25/99-10:28CDT EmergencyNet News Reports on Allegedly Racist Bombings in London, England: 17 April 99 and 24 April 99



06/10/98-10:00CDT--Firebombings Plague Greece This Year





07/25/95--Series of Bombings Devastates France; ENN Reports

09/94-Carbombs in City Centers-By: Supt. Hillier, London Police


08/93-Options Involving Suspected PanAm Flt. 103 Bombers

1992-Pan Am 103 Bombing - US State Dept. Report

Sorry they mixed some Irish dudes in with the Islamic ones but the Pan Am 103 is Hezbollah...the one I confused with Lockerbie .

08/16/98-09:30CDT--Latest Investigative Events Involving the U.S. Embassy Bombings in Africa
08/10/98-08:30CDT--(Sit-Rep) Series of Reports; Bombings of Two U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, Africa -10 Aug 98
08/08/98-09:30CDT--Search For African Embassy Bombers Begins
06/06/98 to 06/08/98: Series of EmergencyNet reports on Escalating Conflict in the ERITREA-ETHIOPIAN area

21:00CDT-05/06/96: Muslim Incursion Into Africa, An ENN Investigative Report

http://www.emergency.com/cntrter3.htm#africa


Remember the song " Just my Imagination " ?

18 Feb 2005

Could Thailand’s terrorism spread?

"...the government is still very far behind in building up preparedness to prevent and deal with potential large-scale terrorist attacks..."

THAILAND: Thailand's first car bomb killed six and injured more than 40 on Thursday evening near a hotel in the border town of Sungai Kolok in Narathiwat. And with it Islamic militants have delivered the unmistakable message that no one in this country, regardless of religious faith, will be spared in their ruthless quest to achieve their political objectives.

Chief among their stated objectives is the creation of an Islamic homeland encompassing Yala, Pattani and Narathiwat, where the overwhelming majority are Muslim Thais of Malay descent. Insurgents seem to be willing to stop at absolutely nothing to achieve this, instigating communal violence and racial hatred in a nation where people of diverse ethnicities and religious faiths have lived in harmony for centuries.

http://www.emergency.com/cntrter3.htm#asia

I miss any part of the world yet.. ??/

SOTH AMERICA !

21 Mar 2002

TODAY'S CENTRAL FOCUS:

Car Bomb Explodes In Lima

PERU: At least nine people were killed and 30 others were wounded when a powerful car bomb exploded near the United States embassy in the Peruvian capital, Lima. It went off at about 22:45 hours Thursday (03:45 GMT Friday), outside a shopping center near the embassy, in a residential area to the east of the city. A secondary device at the scene failed to explode.

The blast reportedly left a large crater in the ground and the street littered with wrecked cars. Authorities are describing the explosion as a terrorist attack aimed at disrupting -- or even prompting the cancellation -- of a forthcoming visit by President George Bush. Witnesses said there was damage to a hotel and bank across the street from the embassy, but the embassy itself appeared not to be damaged.

One of those killed was a police officer who had been checking one of the suspicious vehicles. Interior Minister Fernando Rospigliosi said at least one of the other victims was reported to be a private security guard at the U.S. embassy. The security guard was not immediately identified. A US State Department official did said, however, that no American citizens had been hurt.

President Bush declared that "two-bit terrorists" who exploded a car bomb and killed nine people outside the U.S. Embassy in Peru would not deter him from visiting Lima later this week. "You bet I'm going," Bush told the Reuters news service this morning.

There has been no immediate information on who planted the device. The US President's scheduled visit will be the first to Peru by a serving US president. President Bush is due to arrive in Lima on Saturday afternoon. The President will meet Peruvian President Alejandro Toledo as well as three other Andean heads of state -- from Colombia, Bolivia and Ecuador -- before leaving on Sunday. Peruvian authorities, who had already been tightening security ahead of the visit, say there will now be even further measures.

Hey it could have been anyone after all it is Bush...

07 Apr 2001

SOUTH AMERICA:

Embassies Said Closed Because Of Bin Laden Threats

According to U.S. intelligence officials on Friday, the threat of attack by militants linked to terrorist mastermind Usama bin Laden caused the United States to close three of its embassies in South America. The embassies closed were in the capitals of Uruguay, Paraguay and Ecuador. One U.S. government official reportedly told the United Press International (UPI): "There was a certain level of huffing and puffing" being intercepted between cells of known and suspected bin Laden operatives, and U.S. security specialists had the "feeling we should take certain precautions."

According to another source, the information on bin Laden came from Argentine intelligence. He added that bin Laden operatives had been arriving "over a period of time," apparently for the purpose of carrying out "special missions." Local Shiite Muslims in the tri-border area between Argentina, Paraguay and Brazil, have allegedly put up these operatives in their homes, helped them move around, furnished them with maps and diagrams of various target areas...

Some comic relief

http://jihadwatch.org/

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/082516.php

The report shows that most of the terrorist incidents reported in 2004 were armed attacks (49 percent), followed by bombings (29 percent), kidnappings (11 percent), assaults (4 percent), and suicide bombings (3 percent). No terrorist attacks in 2004 used chemical or biological weapons.

This indicates that a great many attacks in 2004 were low-budget operations that did not require the laundering of the large sums of money needed for elaborate preparations, travel, communications, false passports, lodging, or sophisticated weapons. The most expensive attack was the Madrid train bombing on 11 March 2004. While the NCTC report does not include estimated costs of incidents cited, other reports estimate the Madrid attack most likely did not require more then $150,000.

The terrible incident in Beslan, Russia, in September 2004 was, in all likelihood, less expensive, yet more deadly then the Madrid bombings, primarily due to casualties incurred when Russian security forces stormed the building.

The Near East suffered the largest number of people killed in terrorist attacks in 2004, 728 people dying in 270 incidents. Second was Europe/Eurasia with 636 people killed in 24 instances. The majority of these died in attacks in Russia (331 died at Beslan) and in the Madrid train explosions. In South Asia, 502 people died in 327 attacks, the majority of which took place in India.

Copyright (c) 2005. RFE/RL, Inc. Reprinted with the permission of Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, 1201 Connecticut Ave., N.W. Washington DC 20036. www.rferl.org

http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/news/2005/06/sec-050624-rferl01.htm



lahdedah....Hmmm Australia and Antartica seem to be lacking attention !


http://wits.nctc.gov/reports/crot2005nctcannexfinal.pdf#search="nctc report"

http://wits.nctc.gov/reports/crot2005nctcannexfinal.pdf#search="nctc report"

YOU gotta check this out .. interesting report. Nice Graphs of attacks around the world ...

 

[Danoff]

allright. so lets fight al quaeda. we can of course try to catch them, try to kill them, launch full scale attacks after their bombings, but that way we would only fight the symptoms. now, while there is nothing wrong with fighting the symptoms, only doing that will result in an neverending fight. to stop it entirely, you have to fight the cause.

Yup, and the cause is religious in nature.

not all arabs, but a large part of them and you asked for secular terrorists.

I'd like to see you back that up. My entire understanding of the conflict with Israel is that it is religious in nature - Jewish occupation of the holy land vs. Muslim occupation. If Israel were composed of Muslims, would there be a conflict? I don't think so.

you will have an equally hard time to convince someone who has a comfortable live to commit suicide. someone whose live is already ****ed up does really feel like giving up too much...

Take a look at 9/11. Those guys had been living here nicely for quite a while. It was religious conviction that got them to blow themselves up despite comfortable living.

what rights to the palestinians in the occupied zones have right now?

It's not a question of rights, it's a question of Jewish people who are still breathing.

wow, another reason to add to the already long list of reasons to go to iraq, it seems you come up with a new one every full moon. anyway, until now the impact on the region hasn't been very positive, or am i missing something?

Quote me on any other reason for the invasion.

The Crusades were sparked by trade issues annd political issues with religion being used as the tool to create motivation without using vast sums of cash . And here we have people claiming others have no clue of history ?

...just to make my earlier statements clear...

The people who fought (rather than managed) were doing so for religious conviction. That's a holy war and it's religious in nature. I don't particularly care if their religious convictions were manipulated.

 

[ledhed]

Danoff some of those who fought did for religion ...but many more did for fame and for plunder. That is historical fact . And dont forget you have to pick a Crusade , for example the childrens Crusade as it was called ...Or How about when the western Knights sacked Constantinople ? Last I looked THEY were CHRISTIANS at the time ....Tell me that wasn't for cash ? religion may have got hem to the place but greed and plunder kinda took over .

You cant make blanket statements on the Crusades EXCEPT they were NOT purely for or because of religion .



I dare you to read this paper....

http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~tsandler/TERROR01.PDF

PATTERNS OF TRANSNATIONAL TERRORISM, 1970-99:
ALTERNATIVE TIME SERIES ESTIMATES
Abstract
Using alternative time series methods, this paper investigates the patterns of transnational
terrorist incidents that involve one or more deaths. Initially, an updated analysis of these fatal
events for 1970-99 is presented using a standard linear model with pre-specified interventions
that represent significant policy and political impacts. Next, a (regime-switching) threshold
autoregressive (TAR) model is applied to this fatality time series. TAR estimates indicate that
increases above the mean are not sustainable during high-activity eras, but are sustainable during
low-activity eras. The TAR model provides a better fit than previously tried methods for the


Blah blah blah...its nuts read it .

education hurts your head ever notice that ?

Terrorism is particularly troublesome for liberal democracies, entrusted with protecting
the lives and property of their electorate.3 If such democracies respond inappropriately to a
terrorist threat by either caving in to terrorist demands or overly restricting freedoms, then they
can lose legitimacy and be defeated at the next election (Wilkinson, 1986, 2001).

No Duh ?



This is not fun at all .

Since the start of 1980, the number of religious-based
groups has increased as a proportion of the active terrorist groups: 11 of 48 groups in 1992, 16
of 49 groups in 1994, and 25 of 58 groups in 1995 (Hoffman, 1997:3). Bin Laden's al-Qaida
network includes Islamic extremist organizations in many countries, which are linked through
finances, training, and a common enemy. This network includes such groups as Abu Sayyaf (the
Philippines), Egypt's Islamic Group, Harakat ul-Mujahidin (Pakistan), Islamic Movement of
Uzbekistan, Al-Jihan (Egypt), and Bin Laden's own group (Afghanistan) (US Department of
State, 2001). Even left-wing groups and Palestinian groups have been known to train together
and to have other ties (Wilkinson, 1986, 2001; Hoffman, 1998), so that separate networks have
explicit links to one another. Implicit ties come from copying each other's tactics – the so-called
demonstration effect. These networks' common hatred of the United States and Israel means that
heightened attacks by groups in one part of the world can spark increased attacks in other parts
of the world. This implicit coordination shows up as distinct cycles of peaks and troughs in
transnational terrorist activities (Enders et al., 1992; Enders and Sandler, 1999).
Thus far, we have only considered the terrorist choice between legal and terrorist
activities. Another choice by the terrorists must, however, be made in allocating Rt among
alternative modes of attacks so as to equate the expected marginal gain per dollar spent on
alternative operations. Actions by the government to increase the difficulty (i.e., the price) of
one kind of attack will cause the terrorists to substitute into other types of attacks that now
appear to be relatively cheaper (Sandler, Tschirhart, and Cauley, 1983; Enders and Sandler,
1993)

 

[Danoff]

The Crusades were a series of military campaigns conducted in the name of Christendom[1] and usually sanctioned by the Pope.[2] They were of a religious character, combining pilgrimage with militarism. When originally conceptualized, the aim was to recapture Jerusalem and the Holy Land from the Muslims while supporting the Byzantine Empire against the "ghazwat" of the Seljuq [3] expansion into Anatolia. The fourth crusade however was diverted and resulted in the conquest of Constantinople. Later crusades were launched against various targets for a mixture of religious, economic, and political reasons, such as the Albigensian Crusade, the Aragonese Crusade, and the Northern Crusades.

...

 

[ledhed]

...

So we are both right ?

Thats not fair .


Dude help me out with that terrorism stuff ...those crazy sumnabeeches actually HAVE EQUATIONS !

I cant deal with that crap...you do it ...

 

[Danoff]

So we are both right ?

Thats not fair .

Dude help me out with that terrorism stuff ...those crazy sumnabeeches actually HAVE EQUATIONS !

I cant deal with that crap...you do it ...

I'm doing my best, but I can't compete with the sheer volume you've been cranking out.

 

[ledhed]

I'm doing my best, but I can't compete with the sheer volume you've been cranking out.

So much global Jihad so little time . You should see my favorites...

God forbid the FBI does...I have all the Jihadist websites that translate for english..I tried using babblefish to translate Islamic sites but it just aint gonna work ...comes out all gibberish..but thankfully they want to recruit westerners to the the cause of global Jihad...so I get to join !!

If only I can learn more about the Koran ...seems thats the screening process...they teach the Koran ( Quaran ) in either Arabic or Farsi so as not to dilute the mesage and I'm not up to memorizing phrases and such like a true believer would .

I'd much rather drink beer .

But the sheer volume available that documents the link between Islam and GLOBAL terrorism since 1972 AND 1948 ...never mind 1972 qnd 2006 is overwhelming.

And it gets better you can see the roots from before WWI and actually trace the liniage of terror organizations fighting western Imperialism in the name of Islam ...or just dedicated to killing Jews in the name of Islam.


beside the dude so much as accused me of not doing my homework .

 

[Cobra_UK]

Actually, it does and nothing of what anyone says here is gospel. It's either fact, opinion or an opinion based on facts.

If you just want to post your wonderful opinions without having to back them up to the closed minded, self centered members here, I suggest you start your own website or possibly blog. This is a FORUM where issues are discussed. If your not interested in a discussion or just plain don't have the stamina for it, stay out. Simple, right?

What's your problem? When did I say I don't want to discuss? Why are you talking crap?

I discussed my opinions with people on here and then I chose to stop discussing, I gave it a go and then decided that the debate was not worth continuing any more, from my point of view. So where do you get off telling me to go to another forum? I have a life and decided to do something else. That doesn't mean I have no stamina to discuss this into the night over and over again. It just means I discussed for a bit and that was it for me.

Not everything everyone that posts on a forum must have backups or some kind of seal of aproval. People write all kinds of unfounded crap of this forum and although I'm not one of them I don't see them being asked for backup!

Swift you were good to back danoff, you're both in the same league. Simple right?

EDIT: Vladimir, I'm glad you understand what I was trying to say and that you share some of my views. I brought some opinions and facts to the table, pointed people to search a bit on the internet or library about the history of Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden and I hope some people do and learn a few things, as I did. I'm glad a numer of people on this thread did do some research and posted the links, I didn't have the time for it myself. Like you said since the same crap is happening on this thread I decided to back off after debating it for a bit. Apparently that means I have no stamina and I need to find my own blog or forum. Shocker!