Al Qaeda - A time to talk?

[kennythebomb]

Ok then I take it back. You still haven't found a non-religious terrorist. Just a non-religious terrorist supporter.

That portion of the article opens with 'Sheikh Abu Hamza al-Masri, the radical Muslim cleric who runs a mosque in a shabby district of north London, has certainly come to despise America.'

So I would assume that as Sheikh, he has likely influenced others to become terrorists.

 

[Danoff]

That portion of the article opens with 'Sheikh Abu Hamza al-Masri, the radical Muslim cleric who runs a mosque in a shabby district of north London, has certainly come to despise America.'

So I would assume that as Sheikh, he has likely influenced others to become terrorists.

A cleric is a little too far into the muslim religion to be considered unbiased. He might justify his hatred in a number of ways, but it could still stem from religion. Plus, he's not a terrorist (even if he has influenced others to be).

Take away religion (historically as well). Take away the 72 virgins and the infidels and the jewish evilness and you eliminate middle eastern terrorism. I see no reason to believe otherwise.

 

[Swift]

Take away religion (historically as well). Take away the 72 virgins and the infidels and the jewish evilness and you eliminate middle eastern terrorism. I see no reason to believe otherwise.

So as far as the "religious" factor goes. I believe this statment sums it up very nicely!

 

[magburner]

*** Disclaimer *** I'M NOT ANTI-AMERICAN *** Disclaimer ***

I have to say that or I will be taken out of context like the ole' pontiff has been. Anyway, on with the show.

Only one side has to be fighting for religion to make it a religious war.

I agree that only one side has to be fighting for religion to make it a religious war, but I still feel that the war is ideological, rather than religious. Or maybe an ideological war with a religious agenda?

Yea, when he quotes people he should be aware that it will be taken completely out of context.

Come now! The Pope made a grave mistake with that speech, in context or not, he should of known better. Who read his copy? Surely there must of been alarm bells ringing somewhere in the Vatican when he decided to include the words Mohammed, Evil and Inhuman in the same sentence? Or is the Catholic church that far out of touch?

If you want to build bridges with another religion (I take it that what he was trying to do), you don't quote 1000 year old emperor nobodies and then choose statements that are inflamatory. Were there any complimentary (glowing) phrases in the speech? I'm sure the speech would of gone down well in a chinwag with Islamic scholars, but the average muslim on the street, isn't going to have a clue what the hell he was going on about. I know I wouldn't. I would hear Muhammed, and evil, then inhuman, and ask myself, 'did he just say what I think he did?'

If we open a dialogue, the war on terror has already forfeit it's goals.

What goals would we forfeit in the war on terror if we opened a dialog?

Now this is the problem. Someone says anything about the Muslim faith and they incur a murderous wrath. Say something about Jesus, Buddha, Genesh and people laugh. Amazing how there is that double standard only with Muslims. What makes them so immune to critique and comic sarcasm?

I'm aware of a lot of things that have been said about Jesus and the holy crew - all of it from non-muslims. Jesus was a prophet similar to Muhammed, so its unlikely that Muslims would say anything bad about him. If you look closer, you will find that any anti-jesus rhetoric is from Westerners.

The only reason terrorists hate the USA so much is that we're allies with Israel(and we should be). If it wasn't for that, I seriously doubt 9/11 would have ever happened.

Wakey! Wakey! You seriously don't believe that do you? There is a lot more to it than that! Maybe americas relationship with Israel played a part, but I don't think that was the main/only reason for the 9/11 tradegy. There is a whole back-history of relations between America and many Middle-Eastern countries. I think that maybe the answers lie there amongst the failed alliances, secret backings, and sponsored acts of terrorism. Listen to any of Bin Ladens broadcasts, and he mentions a myriad of reasons why - support of Israel is only one of them.

America does a lot of things wrong. But we're pretty good about foreign policy.

Is that a statement or a joke? I have to ask as it seems you have neglected to mention the failed foreign policies in the Middle East.

I think it should read: 'America does a lot of things good. But we're pretty wrong about foreign policy.'

* Runs for the bunker *

 

[Swift]

I'm aware of a lot of things that have been said about Jesus and the holy crew - all of it from non-muslims. Jesus was a prophet similar to Muhammed, so its unlikely that Muslims would say anything bad about him. If you look closer, you will find that any anti-jesus rhetoric is from Westerners.

No, that's not my point in the slightest. It doesn't matter who says it. There was a soutpark episode about this whole thing a while ago that proved just how stupid this concept is. Comedy central actually blacked out the muhammad part, but was pefectly fine with Jesus deficating over other religious "icons" and the president. This is what I'm talking about. "Don't say anything about the muslims, but rag on everyone else all you want." I don't care who said it, it shouldn't be a death sentence.

Wakey! Wakey! You seriously don't believe that do you? There is a lot more to it than that! Maybe americas relationship with Israel played a part, but I don't think that was the main/only reason for the 9/11 tradegy. There is a whole back-history of relations between America and many Middle-Eastern countries. I think that maybe the answers lie there amongst the failed alliances, secret backings, and sponsored acts of terrorism maybe. Listen to any of Bin Ladens broadcasts, and he mentions a myriad of reasons why - support of Israel is only one of them.

I don't believe anything bin laden says. Nothing. That man is twisted and evil. Only God knows if he's even still alive.

Sure, there have been other things that add fuel to the fire. But the MAIN problem has always been that the US backs Israel pretty much no matter what. That's religion in the eyes of the extremists and that's the main factor in 9/11.

 

[magburner]

No, that's not my point in the slightest.... "Don't say anything about the muslims, but rag on everyone else all you want." I don't care who said it, it shouldn't be a death sentence.

Ah, sorry man. I get you now, and I agree. 👍

I don't believe anything bin laden says. Nothing. That man is twisted and evil.

Really? If 3,000 odd of my countrymen had been killed by his followers, I'd be listening to every single word he said, then I'd be asking questions. What do you think he and Al-Zakhawi are saying - lies? They'd hardly produce videos explaining their intentions, and then back them up with acts of terrorism if they were lying would they? I see it like this - You can either have someone tell you why you are being attacked, or you can listen to the attacker himself. Why is the choice so hard? For me its a no-brainer.

 

[Danoff]

I agree that only one side has to be fighting for religion to make it a religious war, but I still feel that the war is ideological, rather than religious. Or maybe an ideological war with a religious agenda?

How about a just "religious war"? 'Cause that's what it is. These people believe they are doing god's work. If it's not a religious war, I don't know what is. You can call it ideological if you want, but the reason there is an ideological conflict is because of religion.

Come now! The Pope made a grave mistake with that speech, in context or not, he should of known better. Who read his copy? Surely there must of been alarm bells ringing somewhere in the Vatican when he decided to include the words Mohammed, Evil and Inhuman in the same sentence? Or is the Catholic church that far out of touch?

Right. The pope should make sure that anything he says can't be taken out of context and sound bad. Let's see what I can take out of context in your previous quote here...

Come now! The Pope... must... be... Mohammed, Evil and Inhuman... the same... is the Catholic church...

What goals would we forfeit in the war on terror if we opened a dialog?

The goal of ending terrorism.

 

[magburner]

Right. The pope should make sure that anything he says can't be taken out of context and sound bad. Let's see what I can take out of context in your previous quote here...

Come now! The Pope... must... be... Mohammed, Evil and Inhuman... the same... is the Catholic church...

Unlike the Pope, I never said all that in one sentence! You've just just picked words at random. Yes he should make sure that nothing he says is taken out of context. Being the supreme infallible being he is supposed to be, he should never of said that in context or otherwise. JP2 never did anything like that.

The goal of ending terrorism.

Like I said before, how do you know for sure that there is no form of dialog anyway?

 

[kennythebomb]

Sure, there have been other things that add fuel to the fire. But the MAIN problem has always been that the US backs Israel pretty much no matter what. That's religion in the eyes of the extremists and that's the main factor in 9/11.

I have to agree with magburner here.

It is logical to assume that most radical Muslim terrorists are influenced by Bin Laden's rhetoric, since he is the leader of the umbrella group that has links to all the others. It is logical to assume that they too believe the same things, after hearing him say it. So if Bin Laden gives those specific reasons, then I'd put a lot of stock in it. And some of those are independent of religion! My new favorite catchphrase.

 

[Danoff]

Unlike the Pope, I never said all that in one sentence! You've just just picked words at random. Yes he should make sure that nothing he says is taken out of context. Being the supreme infallible being he is supposed to be, he should never of said that in context or otherwise. JP2 never did anything like that.

It is not possible to make sure that nothing one says can be taken ou of context.

Like I said before, how do you know for sure that there is no form of dialog anyway?

If there is, we've already lost.

I have to ask as it seems you have neglected to mention the failed foreign policies in the Middle East.

I think it should read: 'America does a lot of things good. But we're pretty wrong about foreign policy.'

* Runs for the bunker *

I think we've gotten the major foreign policy decisions right. I support our decision to invade Iraq, I support our decision to go after Al Qaeda, I supported our decision to stay out of the Israel-Lebanon conflict, and I support our handling of North Korea. I also support the Vietnam war, the decision to drop the bomb, the civil war, and the revolutionary war against England.

 

[YSSMAN]

But i see that the majority of people here is from United States. You, as americans, can imagine, seriously, what would a middle-east person say here, reading all of these comments?

I mean. For several years, the image that we have (i speak for friends in several countries) is that the "Shoot First, Ask Later" is your national anthem. Dirty Harry style. "Kill the communists"", and whatsoever.

I am sure you, nationalists (no problem with that) always want to believe what is right is your view. Not others'. I guess what is the "truth" concept to the Iraquians, the Syrians, Iranians, Pakistanese, etc.

Well of course we are "right," we're Americans!

I can certainly understand where you are comming from, but generally speaking I think a lack of a major terrorist attack in your nation does make your idea of offence/defence against it a bit one-sided. Granted we as Americans have really only made terrorism our focus in the last five years, we as people of the west (descended from those in Europe) have been fighting the Islamic Fundamentalists for centuries. The crusades? The attacks by Muslims in Austria?

But you and your friend's narrow view of American foreign policy is completely incorrect. We indeed give fair warning for our actions, letting our enemies decide if they wish to fight us or not. Granted, that won't necessarily work with terrorists, but we indeed gave Saddam and Iraq a chance... And to be completely honest, I'd rather have a "Shoot First, Ask Later" policy against the terrorists to begin with. There have been far too many missed oppertunities to kill prominent members of Al-Queda, terrorists caught-up in neighborhoods, etc but we won't do it because of the potential collateral damage. So whats a country to do?

...Now if someone from the Middle-East was to walk in here and give their opinion, I'd be happy to hear it. There used to be more users from the general area, but I haven't herd much from them as of late. Unfortunate really, as they offered some great insight as to how they viewed the conflict between the Islamic Fundamentalists, their "moderate" countries, and that of the West that is fighting this war.

But even then, it isn't their war. It is between the US and our allies, and those who are against freedom and democracy in the world. They can choose who's side they wish to be on, or I suppose a neutral stance may be in order. Either way, the freedoms of people around the world are at stake...

---

Obviously there is a split of ideals here in this thread. On the one hand, there are hard-liners who would choose not to make deals with the terrorists, fight them directly, and hope to end terrorism by removing threats. On the other, we have appeasers, who hope to stick their tails between their legs, run home, and make a few phone calls... Validating the terrorist's tactics, baisically encouraging more actions on their behalf.

...Kinda reminds you of World War II, eh? Its the difference of Chruchill and Chamberlain all over again...

 

[magburner]

I think we've gotten the major foreign policy decisions right. I support our decision to invade Iraq, I support our decision to go after Al Qaeda, I supported our decision to stay out of the Israel-Lebanon conflict, and I support our handling of North Korea. I also support the Vietnam war, the decision to drop the bomb, the civil war, and the revolutionary war against England.

How old are you man? I don't konw how you can express support for something that has already happened and you know the outcome. Its easy to support a previous sucess, its harder to support something where the outcome is unknown. Though you have also expressed support for the War in Iraq and the struggle with Al-Qaeda, time will tell if that support was well placed.

Anyway, it seems to me that some of the mess that we have in the Middle East is partly down to previously failed American foreign policies that have been implimented over the past 20-30 years or so. It seems a little cynical to be eulogizing democracy now, when in the past America has propped up or tacitly supported some of the most despised and undemocratic regimes in the Middle East as well as sponsor acts of terrorism.

Its not too big a leap of the imagination to think that we may have been partly to blame for the war on terror or some of the terrorist acts that have happened in the last five years.

 

[KSaiyu]

heh, well I wasn't expecting the thread to end up here.

Dimitrov actually brings up an relevant point about views on America, and what the average person outside America thinks about them. It's fine to argue against his points and convince him that America has been right in the past and what it continues to do on this forum - but it does little to convince the people who are prone to become terrorists in the future by continuing with the current policy in the middle east, and this is kinda what the video was expressing and how it does convert more muslims into fanatics willing to kill both over there and over here.

 

[Danoff]

How old are you man?

26

I don't konw how you can express support for something that has already happened and you know the outcome.

Because I know how it started. The ends do not justify the means, the beginnings justify the means. How old are you?

Its easy to support a previous sucess, its harder to support something where the outcome is unknown.

It's not hard to support something that I know was morally justified.

 

[YSSMAN]

@Mag: Well I think we would all be a bit stupid if we didn't acknowlege the foreign policy of our nation as a catalyst for what happened. Granted many of the problems can also be tied to our Allies as well (particularly Great Britain and France), but for the most part our current issues stem from WWII. Undoubtedly former American Presidents such as Truman, Nixon, and Carter carry much of the blame for the foundations of modern, radical Islam.

 

[Matt R]

Dimitrov actually brings up an relevant point about views on America, and what the average person outside America thinks about them.

I wonder sometimes what other countries think about the country I live in. When I hear others from countires abroad saying bad things about the United States and how we are in this war and bad we are for it, I just want to know if people think the country as a whole is bad. Do people just hate our president or our whole nation now? Our presidents approval ratings have been down to 33% percent and more than half of our nation is against the war in Iraq. Does anyone take that into account or do you outsiders dislike our whole country for what a President has thrown us into?

This post was not meant to start a discussion about Bush and blah blah. I'm just wondering how others feel about us and why.

 

[Danoff]

Undoubtedly former American Presidents such as Truman, Nixon, and Carter carry much of the blame for the foundations of modern, radical Islam.

The blame lies squarely with the terrorists. What you describe is like blaming a gun manufacturer for making the gun that was used to kill someone.

This post was not meant to start a discussion about Bush and blah blah. I'm just wondering how others feel about us and why.

We already have a thread for that. I recommend that any responses to this go there.

 

[YSSMAN]

If I may defend my statement Danoff, I was subscribing to the idea that it was their foreign policy that has produced the problems in which the terrorists seem to feel their actions are justified against our country.

Does that mean that Truman, Nixon, and Carter did the wrong things? Certainly not, as even I (within the context of the era) presumably would have done much the same.

There is plenty of blame to go around everywhere, but certainly so, much of that stems from the idiots who lead factions like Al-Queda, Hammas, etc.

 

[Swift]

This post was not meant to start a discussion about Bush and blah blah. I'm just wondering how others feel about us and why.

There's already a thread on that. Do a search for it in this very forum

 

[magburner]

How old are you?

Im 33. I was asking how old you were, because you were expressing support for actions that happened a long time ago. To me, its unusual to express support for something that has happened decades, or centuries ago.

The blame lies squarely with the terrorists. What you describe is like blaming a gun manufacturer for making the gun that was used to kill someone.

So your saying that America is not responsible for any of the terrorists - not even Bin Laden, even thought foreign policy at the time sponsored him, and the terrorist attacks of his followers?

After the London bombing, I was left in no illusion that the actions of my country had been a catylst for that attack. Can't you see that with regard to yours?

I was watching an Irainian military video (the propaganda type), and you can imagine my surprise when I saw them flying around in American planes and helicopters! I wonder how they got there? Isn't it funny how the times change?

 

[Danoff]

Im 33. I was asking how old you were, because you were expressing support for actions that happened a long time ago. To me, its unusual to express support for something that has happened decades, or centuries ago.

Why should that be unusual?

So your saying that America is not responsible for any of the terrorists - not even Bin Laden, even thought foreign policy at the time sponsored him, and the terrorist attacks of his followers?

No, we're not responsible for their actions.

After the London bombing, I was left in no illusion that the actions of my country had been a catylst for that attack. Can't you see that with regard to yours?

I see, they attacked you and that made you feel responsible... that doesn't make any sense.

 

[Matt R]

We already have a thread for that. I recommend that any responses to this go there.

There's already a thread on that. Do a search for it in this very forum

Err, it was mainly a question for Dimitrov. I thought since he decided to tell all of us that a bunch of people feel the U.S. is blah blah whatever he said, I just wanted to post that and possibly get a response from him.

I'll try not to make posts that may concern other threads...

 

[YSSMAN]

So your saying that America is not responsible for any of the terrorists - not even Bin Laden, even thought foreign policy at the time sponsored him, and the terrorist attacks of his followers?

After the London bombing, I was left in no illusion that the actions of my country had been a catylst for that attack. Can't you see that with regard to yours?

I was watching an Irainian military video (the propaganda type), and you can imagine my surprise when I saw them flying around in American planes and helicopters! I wonder how they got there? Isn't it funny how the times change?

A few things:

1) Sure, we proped up Bin-Laden during the Afghan/Soviet war back in the '80s, but we've been known to get the brunt of the "blowback" when things happen like that. We supported Saddam in the Iraq/Iran war too, but in the context of the era, it seemed to be the right decision...

Being that you are British (if I'm not mistaken), your country has done much the same over it's long history as well...

2) You seem to be dissapointed that you were attacked by the terrorists, no? Guess what, there are more countries that are in their crosshairs besides the US and the UK! Our good friends in Australia, Canada, and even Italy have been at risk as well, and it is only a matter of time before something happens in a country like France, Germany, or the Netherlands as well.

We are ALL targets for terrorism, any free nation that is part of the west. Why? Because we support the ideas of democracy, liberty, and equal rights for ALL citizens. They (the terrorists) won't have it, and bad foreign policy or not, that is a HUGE part as to why they hate us.

I think anyone in America can see that some of the things we have done have caused probelms, "blowback" as noted before. But this is the way the world works, particularly in the Middle East.

3) Sure, they may have a few pieces of American equipment... There are a lot of countries who do, ones that aren't big fans of the US as well. Many of which also use French, German, Russian, and even British equipment as well. That said, it is often poorly maintained and way out-of-date, so we don't have much to worry about there.

 

[KSaiyu]

No, we're not responsible for their actions.

Possibly not for all their actions, but definetly for the extent to which their influence has reached - and the UK too in relation to our foreign policy of backing America and the resulting 7/7. This has been admitted by White House documents (not the UK part), and this is one big reason why I posted the video to start this thread.

 

[YSSMAN]

Not that I want to start a fight here with the British folks (I love you guys), but I'm getting the feeling that you are blaming us for your Terrorist attacks on 7/7, correct? To be completely honest, thats a bit unfair...

Running away from problems with your tail between your legs doesn't get anything solved in this world today. Keep in mind that it wasn't just the US who has been poking around in the Middle East over the past 100 years, as I seem to recall a time in which Great Britan was the land-owner for quite some time. Of course World War II changed much of that, and thanks to both Great Britan and the United States, Israel exists, and it is a HUGE thorn in the side of the Islamic extremists in the Middle East.

I'd be very dissapointed in Great Britain if you guys suddenly pulled a 180 on us and decided that it just isn't worth fighting the terrorists. If that would happen, they have allready won. Every single American appreciates that you, the Australians, and the Canadians have fought with us in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we thank you for it.

...But you can turn on heel and change your mind either. We are doing the right thing by using a good offense as our defense. We are all in this together, as allies, and although parts of the world may not like us for it, we are doing the right thing...

 

[magburner]

I see, they attacked you and that made you feel responsible... that doesn't make any sense.

I don't feel responsible, but I know why it happened. I may of been responsible for voting in the government that took our country to war, but that is as far as my guilt goes. Since then, I've been voting like crazy trying to get them out!

A few things:

1) Sure, we proped up Bin-Laden during the Afghan/Soviet war back in the '80s, but we've been known to get the brunt of the "blowback" when things happen like that. We supported Saddam in the Iraq/Iran war too, but in the context of the era, it seemed to be the right decision...

You forgot the Shar of Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan. Along with Saddam, you could not ask for four of the most undemocratic 'regimes' in the Middle East.

...but in the context of the era, it seemed to be the right decision...

Hmmm... Thats not going to wash with me I'm afraid. When Americas foreign policy is discussed by the government of the time, don't they ever look further into the future? It hadly seems that there is any thought or care about the consequences of being on one side then the other or jumping in and out of alliances left right and center. Even looking as little into the future as ten years seems impossible. For instance, backing then invading Iraq in the space of ten years. As well as backing Iraq, America had previously backed Iran, talk about dancing around the borders like Cassius Clay!

Basically it kinda goes like this:. Back the Sha of Iran, he gets ousted in the Islamic revolution. Bummer, no more backing for Iran! Iraq starts a war with Iran. A nice opportunity for pay back on those Islamic suckers. Now we'll back Iraq. The war ends, and the backing cools off. Sponsored acts terrorism against USSR, and training 'future' terrorists in Afghanistan. Saddam, takes a swipe at Kuwait. Attack Iraq, defend Kuwait. war is over again. 9/11, looking for escapegoats, Afghanistan is invaded, and Iraq is the naughty boy again. Invade Iraq, bring 'democracy', spend the five years mired up in a hell hole. In the mean time Iran has once again become a power thanks to the invasion of Afghanistan, and Iraq. Cue the invasion of iran... On and on it goes... :rollseyes: Thats an example of American foreign policy in the Middle East (in a nutshell of course.) Do you wonder why they hate us?

Being that you are British (if I'm not mistaken), your country has done much the same over it's long history as well...

We sure have, but is any of it relevant to the current situation in the Middle East?

You seem to be dissapointed that you were attacked by the terrorists, no? Guess what, there are more countries that are in their crosshairs besides the US and the UK! Our good friends in Australia, Canada, and even Italy have been at risk as well, and it is only a matter of time before something happens in a country like France, Germany, or the Netherlands as well.

I sure am dissapointed that we were attacked. I could of understood if it was foreigners like those that commited the 9/11 tradegy, but these were British Citizens.

We are ALL targets for terrorism, any free nation that is part of the west. Why? Because we support the ideas of democracy, liberty, and equal rights for ALL citizens. They (the terrorists) won't have it, and bad foreign policy or not, that is a HUGE part as to why they hate us.

As for other countries in the firing line. Outside of the Middle East, only a few countries have been attacked most of them (Ameirca, UK, Spain) were part of the 'Broad-Coalition'.

Sure, they may have a few pieces of American equipment... There are a lot of countries who do, ones that aren't big fans of the US as well. Many of which also use French, German, Russian, and even British equipment as well. That said, it is often poorly maintained and way out-of-date, so we don't have much to worry about there.

Really? Check out these videos then (and count how many different types of American aircraft you can spot):

Iranian military power 1
Iranian military power 2
Iranian military power 3
Iranian military power 4

Possibly not for all their actions, but definetly for the extent to which their influence has reached - and the UK too in relation to our foreign policy of backing America and the resulting 7/7.

Here! Here!

Not that I want to start a fight here with the British folks (I love you guys), but I'm getting the feeling that you are blaming us for your Terrorist attacks on 7/7, correct? To be completely honest, thats a bit unfair...

No, I can't speak for others here, but I place the blame squarely at the feet of the 'war on terror' and the invasion of Iraq. It just so happens that America was the big cheese in both of those conflicts.

Running away from problems with your tail between your legs doesn't get anything solved in this world today. Keep in mind that it wasn't just the US who has been poking around in the Middle East over the past 100 years, as I seem to recall a time in which Great Britan was the land-owner for quite some time. Of course World War II changed much of that, and thanks to both Great Britan and the United States, Israel exists, and it is a HUGE thorn in the side of the Islamic extremists in the Middle East.

Who said anything about running away? How about not getting involved in the first place? We can show solidarity with America without having to fight their wars for them.

I'd be very dissapointed in Great Britain if you guys suddenly pulled a 180 on us and decided that it just isn't worth fighting the terrorists. If that would happen, they have allready won. Every single American appreciates that you, the Australians, and the Canadians have fought with us in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we thank you for it.

You've got no chance on that one I'm afraid! Even though support for the 'war on terror' in the UK is at an all-time low, there is nothing we can do to stop it as the 'elected dictatorship' we have refuses to listen to the voices of the people who voted them in. Talk about democracy, more like democrasy!

...But you can turn on heel and change your mind either. We are doing the right thing by using a good offense as our defense. We are all in this together, as allies, and although parts of the world may not like us for it, we are doing the right thing...

We're not allies, we're accomplices. IMO, its time for a change of strategy. We've had two world wars that didn't lasted as long as the war on terror. When is it going to end? Is it ever? There seems to be alot of bad news, and no good news - is that how its supposed to be? I read somewhere that America had spent about 425 billion so far on the war on terror - the majority of it used to destroy no doubt. imagine the difference that 425 billion could of made if it had been used to create...

 

[YSSMAN]

I completely understand your arguement, but I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. There are far worse things we could be doing now, and there are far better things we could be doing. But to have a dramatic switch to any of them would be dangerous for our troops on the ground and security at home.

...I've been in full support of Bush and his Administration during our "War on Terror," and I continue to do so. Of course we can all have our nit-picks as to how the war has been handeled (not particularly well in many cases), but indeed we are in it for the long-haul.

People constantly bring up World War II as an example for a time-table in this war. Not only is that rather silly, but someone what naiive as well. In World War II, we were fighting an easily defined enemy with easily defined borders. We knew that the bad-guys were in Africa, the Middle-East, and across the Channel. War was fought the way wars "should" be fought, but definitions have changed drastically over the past 60 years.

We are not fighting a defined enemy with defined borders anymore. We can take out regimes that support these terrorists, which argueably is the best thing we can do at the moment, and otherwise resort to surgical-strikes wherever these people may be. It, baisically, is Vietnam on a grand-scale. We aren't completely sure who the bad guys are, but of course they have an easy time picking us out of a crowd...

---

A slight tangent:

Which is funny, because we (and our Allies) MUST follow all-rules of the Geneva convention when entering combat with these folks, despite the fact that they represent no nation, thus in theory, shouldn't be protected under those laws...

Just something I've been thinking about.

---

What it comes down to is that if you want change, we as Americans and you as Britons all have your oppertunities to "fix it" by voting out your representatives in the near future. Our Congressional elections are comming up in early November (one that should see about ten seats per house going back to the Democrats), and although your next elections are in 2010 (correct me if I'm wrong, please) you are switching Prime Ministers next year (again, correct me if I'm wrong).

Policy changes aren't going to solve everything, that is a pretty reasonable statement. But certainly there are a few things that could be changed for the better in the way we are handling ourselves in the Middle East.

Iran, as you noted, is indeed our biggest problem. Although Ameninajad (sp?) says that he doesn't want war with America, or the west for that matter, if his own policies don't change he could probably expect to have NATO knocking on his door with the support of the UN in the near-future.

---

But, given that neither you or I are in power, we obviously can't make the rules.

(BTW: Thanks for not taking things personally. It hapens too often here. I'm sure we all know how to talk like adults once in a while...)

 

[KSaiyu]

Not that I want to start a fight here with the British folks (I love you guys), but I'm getting the feeling that you are blaming us for your Terrorist attacks on 7/7, correct? To be completely honest, thats a bit unfair...

My view is like Magburners, our involvement with the war on terror made us prime targets (ESPECIALLY considering the amount of muslims in the UK and the general resentment that was shown at that time). This is the fault of our foreign policy - America never made us do anything.

 

[ledhed]

Our involvement in the war on terror...


Think about that little sentance . What exactly brought on " our involvement in the war on terror ?


Well let me remind you AGAIN that it wasn't just 9/11 , you see way back in 1996 Radical Islam declared war on the western nations Ammerica included and especialy , we being the great SATAN and the rest of you the lesser SATANS. They said it in their own words and then they acted. We largely IGNORED them. So they issued a second fatwa in 1998 as required by Islamic tradition or law..or by looney tunes with delusions of world domination..but I digress ...they declared war LOUDER this time because we didn't pay attention and went and blew up some embassies and tried to sink a warship and blew up ssome more embassies and killed afew more people...but for the most part they were at war without a parrtner...because no one was really paying then any mind ..SO they said WAKE THE ***** up you bunch of infidel morons and smell the sulfur of hell..and they played out 9/11.

OOOPS ...who are these crazy people ? We woke up and discovered we were at war ! A real live no kidding war with dead people and evereything ! JUST LIKE ON TV ! Bin Laden...lets see he's in Afghanistan ? OK ....no more Afghanistan ...Who's left to break our sleeping habits ??? Saddam..." but sir ...no terorist in Iraq sir just a crazy guy who wants to kill us " ...well there could be terorist cant take chances and we MUST show everyone that democracy is better than going to weddings dressed as a bomb and blowing up the guest ...Say goodbye to Saddam..and open up the new terrorisy roach MOTEL ..because now all the budding Jihadist in the world get to go to IRAQ to die...with side trips to Afghanistan where they get to hang out in caves in the mountains and get blown up on occasion , when they go out to poop and a drone happens to be flying around.

New century new war . Same old enemies from like the stone age....speaking of wich they dont want to go back to the stone age...they are happy with the more quaint Medevil period of the caliphate.

Again I bring all you PEACE MONGERS the words of those who would cut your head of and put it on u-tube while doing the jihadist boogie to prayer.

Sunday November 24, 2002
Observer.co.uk


In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,
"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory" [Quran 22:39]

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76]

Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.

While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:

Why did they attack us in New York and Washington?

If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.

Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

(a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!!

(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws.

What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.

If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise." [Quran9:13-1]

The Nation of honour and respect:

"But honour, power and glory belong to Allah, and to His Messenger (Muhammad- peace be upon him) and to the believers." [Quran 63:8]

"So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be*superior ( in victory )if you are indeed (true) believers" [Quran 3:139]

The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life:

"Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they are being provided for. They rejoice in what Allah has bestowed upon them from His bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers." [Quran 3:169-171]

The Nation of victory and success that Allah has promised:

"It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it victorious over all other religions even though the Polytheists hate it." [Quran 61:9]

"Allah has decreed that 'Verily it is I and My Messengers who shall be victorious.' Verily Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty." [Quran 58:21]

The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance.

If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this Crusade Bush began, just like the other previous Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen, fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace. If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall, and economic bankruptcy.

This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious?

There you are go talk to them ...tell them all the things you are willing to compromise on..

I'll see you on U tube .


Sorry for the long post but some of you seem to be falling back asleep and have forgotten that you are fighting to preserve YOUR way of life.


The others want to talk to crazy people.

 

[Swift]

My view is like Magburners, our involvement with the war on terror made us prime targets (ESPECIALLY considering the amount of muslims in the UK and the general resentment that was shown at that time). This is the fault of our foreign policy - America never made us do anything.

LOL, so going after murderers makes their actions your(UK's) fault? Uh...nope! If they weren't murdering in the first place, why would we(USA and UK) have to take actions against them and the nation states that support them?