Creation vs. Evolution

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Yeah, I didn't mean it like that! :D

I have lots going on in my life, no problem!

I just meant, if I don't believe in creationism, I'm just left with the option of evolution. Or do people have a 3rd alternative?

I saw a show on bio about near death experiances, this is what I recal.
This guy we will call bob had a heart attack and was declared dead. Bob had a vision and saw his granpa we will call billy. Bob saw (in this vision while bob was declared dead) billy walk towards bob and billys dead relitives, billy was embraced by them and bob was rejected. When bob woke up he was told billy his grandpa had died, or bob told them billy died. Either way bob knew his grandpa had died when he woke because of his vision. Billy died the same time as bob. Bob and billy were many states away from each other, hundreds of miles apart. No one knows when bob had this vision if he was dead or right befor he woke up.

Near death experances are you best shot.

EDIT: Bob could have heard his family talking about billy befor he woke up, and he could have had the vision in the hospital.
 
I saw a show on bio about near death experiances, this is what I recal.
This guy we will call bob had a heart attack and was declared dead. Bob had a vision and saw his granpa we will call billy. Bob saw (in this vision while bob was declared dead) billy walk towards bob and billys dead relitives, billy was embraced by them and bob was rejected. When bob woke up he was told billy his grandpa had died, or bob told them billy died. Either way bob knew his grandpa had died when he woke because of his vision. Billy died the same time as bob. Bob and billy were many states away from each other, hundreds of miles apart. No one knows when bob had this vision if he was dead or right befor he woke up.

Near death experances are you best shot.

But what does near death experiences got to do with the way life looks on this planet?
 
AndersonG22
I saw a show on bio about near death experiances, this is what I recal.
This guy we will call bob had a heart attack and was declared dead. Bob had a vision and saw his granpa we will call billy. Bob saw (in this vision while bob was declared dead) billy walk towards bob and billys dead relitives, billy was embraced by them and bob was rejected. When bob woke up he was told billy his grandpa had died, or bob told them billy died. Either way bob knew his grandpa had died when he woke because of his vision. Bob and billy were many states away from each other, hundreds of miles apart. No one knows when bob had this vision if he was dead or right befor he woke up.

Near death experances are you best shot.

So you're saying I should go out and "nearly kill myself" :D

I think I'll go for the previous suggestion & make something up myself instead ;)

(thanks for the laugh)
 
But what does near death experiences got to do with the way life looks on this planet?

A near death experance is when someone is declared dead and has a vision befor they wake up. The vision is mostly of a good place where there happy and are going towards light but get pulled back. There are also outer body experances such as when sally is having an abortion and dies. sally might float out of her body and see the doctors trying to save her, she might float around for a while but when she wakes up she will remember watching the doctors trying to save her. She will even remember what the doctors are doing and saying while trying to revive her. Ive seen cases where the doctors confirm what sally saw and heard while they were trying to revive her dead body.

My examples may be funny but Im telling the truth, these things do happen. Im only talking about the possibility of some thing extra after we die.
 
AndersonG22
A near death experance is when someone is declared dead and has a vision befor they wake up. The vision is mostly of a good place where there happy and are going towards light but get pulled back. There are also outer body experances such as when sally is having an abortion and dies. sally might float out of her body and see the doctors trying to save her, she might float around for a while but when she wakes up she will remember watching the doctors trying to save her. She will even remember what the doctors are doing and saying while trying to revive her. Ive seen cases where the doctors confirm what sally saw and heard while they were trying to revive her dead body.

My examples may be funny but Im telling the truth, these things do happen. Im only talking about the possibility of some thing extra after we die.

I personally don't believe in life after death, but this is one thing I hope I'm wrong about. :)
 
I personally don't believe in life after death, but this is one thing I hope I'm wrong about. :)

This is our only hope IMHO, I would like to belive these but Im sceptical. There are to many unanswered questions about these things. Im waiting for nano bots to be injected into me and repair my body from the inside out, maby it will be in our life time. That or christ to come back from the dead and hook me up with 72 virgins, F1 car, and all the tracks in the world hahahahaha.
 
AndersonG22
This is our only hope IMHO, I would like to belive these but Im sceptical. There are to many unanswered questions about these things. Im waiting for nano bots to be injected into me and repair my body from the inside out, maby it will be in our life time. That or christ to come back from the dead and hook me up with 72 virgins, F1 car, and all the tracks in the world hahahahaha.

Nah, who wants 72 virgins that doesn't know what they're doing? Gimme 72 "well-traveled women" and we have a deal! :D

(if anyone found this to be offensive, IT WAS A JOKE!)
 
A near death experance is when someone is declared dead and has a vision befor they wake up. The vision is mostly of a good place where there happy and are going towards light but get pulled back. There are also outer body experances such as when sally is having an abortion and dies. sally might float out of her body and see the doctors trying to save her, she might float around for a while but when she wakes up she will remember watching the doctors trying to save her. She will even remember what the doctors are doing and saying while trying to revive her. Ive seen cases where the doctors confirm what sally saw and heard while they were trying to revive her dead body.

My examples may be funny but Im telling the truth, these things do happen. Im only talking about the possibility of some thing extra after we die.

I still don't see what an afterlife has got to do with how the different species came to be or how they evolve.

Or maybe I'm just missing the point?
 
Encyclopedia
I still don't see what an afterlife has got to do with how the different species came to be or how they evolve.

Or maybe I'm just missing the point?

I think he means that for one to believe in creationism, one have to believe in god and therefor afterlife/heaven & what not.. :)
 
Im not talking about evolution or creationism in my two stories. The show "I survived... beyond and back" is where I got the premise for those stories. I do not belive in creationism in any way shape or form, I do not belive in a creator. To belive in creationism IMHO is to belive the earth is 5k old and I dont belive that.

The two stories I told suggest some form of life after death, they may suggest a "creator"(god) to some but not to me. They simply suggest some form of life after death to me, they do not suggest a creator to me.
 
^ That's young Earth creationism you're talking about. Or, as I call it, mental retardation.
 
^ I was talking about the form of creationism that you mentioned, where you said that it was the one where people believe that the world is around 5,000 years old. Most young Earth creationists believe that the world is between 6-10,000 years old.
 
^ I was talking about the form of creationism that you mentioned, where you said that it was the one where people believe that the world is around 5,000 years old. Most young Earth creationists believe that the world is between 6-10,000 years old.

Now that thats cleared up, I think were on the same page.
 
^ That's young Earth creationism you're talking about. Or, as I call it, mental retardation.

The AUP is quite clear on this kind of behaviour....

AUP
You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack any individual or any group.

...and it will not be tolerated here at GT Planet. Differences of opinion are welcomed and debated, abuse and attacks for holding a belief are not.

Take a two day 'holiday' to consider that and when you return make sure you follow the AUP.


Scaff
 
Missed a lot, but since this is a direct response to me:

Sadly, it does not take into account the factual observable limits of the change.
Thats where "assumption" comes in.
I don't think the media is to blame for that.

No, that's your assumption. The basic theory does not assume lower or upper boundaries for the ability of species to change.

I didn't say Newton's law of Gravity, I said the law of Gravity.

There is no "Law of Gravity". There is "Newton's Law of Gravity" and Einstein's General Relativity which both put forward explanations of the observed effects of gravity (which are not universally observable... they're only observable to us because we live inside a gravity well... vacuum dwellers might have a different view...), but there is no "Law" as you state. Just the observation that bodies tend to attract each other through unknown means.

*Strangely, despite being superseded by General Relativity, Newton's Theory is still "Law..."

Just as we see an abundance of genetically similar but distinct species and we see incomplete speciation and even the process of speciation (flies, weeds, bacteria, etcetera ad infinitum) but cannot directly observe the means by which this comes to pass. Thus, our understanding of Gravity is the same as our understanding of Evolution. In fact, it's a whole level less well defined than Evolution, because you can actually observe speciation at the genetic level if you have the right equipment. You can't observe "gravitons."


Again, this is limited, and the species jumping claims of Evolution, are evidentially unsupported.

Evolution does not claim that species "jump." All it claims is that they change over time, which they do. Only once such changes become incontrovertible and the species can no longer mate with other sub-species or the base species does they become new ones. No "jumps" required. Just thousands upon thousands of generations of change.

No, rather out of the factual record.
Horses or flies or whatever, mate and produce like kind or of the same kind.
They will never produce anything else.
Unless I'm mistaken, Evolutionary Theory claims you could start out with one and in a few million or billion years end up with the other.

Evolution makes no claims as to the endpoint of adaptation. Just the process.

Horses don't always produce horses. Haven't we been through this already last year? Horses have partially speciated, which is why we have Donkeys, Mules and Zebramules and other imperfect offspring of the miscegenetization between horses.

Mules are an exception, in your book. But an exception to what? In science, exceptions don't prove the rule. They kill it. Any hypothesis which doesn't allow for mules is automatically bunk.

Yet there are no exceptions to Evolution. Species which do not appear to physically change over time do not disprove Evolution, as it does not require that species exhibit morphological change if they survive just fine.

Flies? Flies are the easiest of all creatures to speciate. Scientists do it in the laboratory over lunch, for fun.

More examples. All occuring within a short enough and recent enough time frame to not require fossil evidence.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html

Note: You can't just handwave this away: "But they're still horses and flies." All equines are horses and all flies are... flies only in the same manner that all primates are chimpanzees. It's a semantic falsehood.
 
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What puzzles me about evolution is, if things (plants, animals, the earth) evolved over thousands of years to overcome adversity or survive, why didn't they become extinct during the process?

Take ground nesting birds for example. According to Dave Attenborough, they evolved to camouflage their eggs with spots as they were laid.
How the hell does a bird tell its own body to do this? Not only that, it passes it down to the next generation, assuming there are other generations as previous eggs would not be camouflaged.

There is also an orchid that has "evolved" a part of itself to mimic a bee so that it can be pollenated and seed. HOW!?

There are too many mysteries surrounding this planet and I feel sad for people who believe evolution is the only answer.

*edited*
 
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What puzzles me about evolution is, if things (plants, animals, the earth) evolved over thousands of years to overcome adversity or survive, why didn't they become extinct during the process?

Take ground nesting birds for example. According to Dave Attenborough, they evolved to camouflage their eggs with spots as they were laid.
How the hell does a bird tell its own body to do this? Not only that, it passes it down to the next generation, assuming there are other generations as previous eggs would not be camouflaged.

There is also an orchid that has "evolved" a part of itself to mimic a bee so that it can be pollenated and seed. HOW!?

There are too many mysteries surrounding this planet and I feel sad for people who believe evolution is the only answer.

*edited*
You need to read about how evolution works. It's not how you think it is.
 
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Just because something is complex, doesn't make it inexplicable.

A bird doesn't have to tell its body nothing. If it's better at blending into its surroundings, it survives. And if that blending means the eggs survive, it passes on the genetic code for mottled colors to the next generation. Over successive generations, birds who don't blend die out.

With Orchids, that's tricky, but imagine a field of a million flowers, all slightly different, but basically the same. A flower that attracts a bee's attention reproduces more. Millions of flowers die out, replaced by the millions of offspring of this flower, all slightly different... over thousands of generations, bees show a distinct preference for shapes... which tends to be a bee's bum. Over those thousands of generations, they shape those flowers through selective pollination, in a never ending cycle of sexual warfare. Of course, orchids are arboreal, but if we include all the factors there, we won't be able to see the orchids for the trees...

Humans have and are doing this with domestic creatures. Simple sexual selection. We like goldfish with big eyes or weird heads, so those fish are the ones we breed. Boom. Celestial-eyed and Lion-head goldfish. We want dogs with longer legs, good for hunting... after a few dozen generations... greyhounds.

Your modern farmed pig or cow are far removed from wild boar and prehistoric cattle. Evolution doesn't care whether the driving factors are natural, man-made or bee-made, it merely describes the process.

An extreme example of evolution is germ warfare. Through our pervasive and often haphazard use of antibiotics, we humans have created innumerable strains of antibiotic resistant bacteria. And we have to keep running to stay on top of the virus war... as viruses evolve into new strains (with different vectors, different "keys" and even different effects) almost as quickly as we can develop vaccines for them.

So every time you have a cold, started by yet another new strain of rhombovirus to which you are not immune (since it's completely different from all the rhombovirii that have infected you before), you should congratulate yourself. You're experiencing Evolution in action.
 
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I feel sad for people who believe evolution is the only answer.
I feel sad for people who don't bother to fully understand something before deciding that it isn't possible. No offense, but please try and learn what evolution actually is before pitying those who do understand it.
 
Just because something is complex, doesn't make it inexplicable.

A bird doesn't have to tell its body nothing. If it's better at blending into its surroundings, it survives. And if that blending means the eggs survive, it passes on the genetic code for mottled colors to the next generation. Over successive generations, birds who don't blend die out.


Basically, it's the process of elimination.

Anyway, I have what you might consider to be a really dumb and obvious question, but I never bothered asking anyone because, well, I never cared. (And I'm not exactly the most educated person in this field)

So, for example, we have dogs, and we have horses. According to evolution, one of the two came first, and one evolved into the other (I hope this is all right so far). Now, that means we should have something in-between, like a half horse half dog (Maybe a deer). So why on earth can't we find what scientists call "intermediate links" (I hope I'm still on course here). I would image there would be millions, if not billions of them (fossilized of course).

I hope that didn't deserve a face-palm.
 
Basically, it's the process of elimination.

Anyway, I have what you might consider to be a really dumb and obvious question, but I never bothered asking anyone because, well, I never cared. (And I'm not exactly the most educated person in this field)

So, for example, we have dogs, and we have horses. According to evolution, one of the two came first, and one evolved into the other (I hope this is all right so far). Now, that means we should have something in-between, like a half horse half dog (Maybe a deer). So why on earth can't we find what scientists call "intermediate links" (I hope I'm still on course here). I would image there would be millions, if not billions of them (fossilized of course).

I hope that didn't deserve a face-palm.

It's one of the most asked and important questions made by Creationists and everyone that subscribes to evolution should be able to answer it. This article was written by Andrew Bernardin on the brilliant book The Greatest Show On Earth by Richard Dawkins. If you haven't read it, buyu a copy immediately.

Where’s the crocoduck? Where’s Homo webbed-feet?

Chapter 6 (“Missing Link? What Do You Mean, ‘Missing’?”) and chapter 7 (“Missing Persons? Missing No Longer”) of Dawkins’ latest book (The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution) tackle the myth of . . . you guessed it: the flagship gap otherwise known as the SS Missing Link.

That boat don’t float. I found a few of Dawkins’ points particularly illuminating, including these two.

1) Biological transitions are never immediate (hardly never?), often occurring over many thousands of years, with innumerable, subtle “intermediate stages” between what we recognize as before and as after. Whether opponents to evolution demand to see “a monkey give birth to a human” (that actually happens every day, at least in the colloquial) or a fossil of a half-carrot, half-bird, or some seemingly more reasonable demand, they are confusing snapshots of the moving picture of evolution for endstates. And revealing an ignorance of how evolution works.

On page 203 Dawkins writes:

“Nobody seriously believes there are two kinds of people, children and adults, with ‘no intermediates’. Obviously we all understand that the whole period of growing up is one long exercise in intermediacy.”

Consider a family photograph album with a number of missing pages. Are we supposed to believe that the son from page 1 “magically” transformed into the man on page 31, the daughter on 2 to the woman on 32? (Was that a sexist numbering?) Crazy! Or maybe not.

It is as if creationists, when examining the photographic record, demand, “Where are the photos of the baby boy with a full beard? Where’s the infant girl with double-Ds and pubic hair? Where are the missing transitional forms that strike me as obviously transitional!”

This sentence from the book is a real kicker.

“The changes that take place within an individual’s lifetime, as it grows up, are in any case much more dramatic than the changes we see as we compare adults in successive generations.” p. 205

Oh, snap!

Evolution is a messy affair. The well-educated and rational don’t expect to see a clear, distinct step by distinct step progression from simpler to more complex forms. (E.g. Step one, boy without a beard, step two, boy with a moustache, step three, boy with beard and moustache.)

2. Evolution is no ladder with representational species as rungs and a designated endpoint.

Although it may feel right to project a meaning onto evolution; it is mistaken. Manifesting extreme species-centrism, many people portray life as progression up the ladder of biological forms — slime, fish, rodents, monkeys, apes, and surprise! our kind — as a sort of preordained progression.

So those ancient fish with a proclivity for crawling in the mud at water’s edge, they did their part in providing the scaffolding that led to me. Thanks fish!

If nature had a motto, it might be, “what works, works.” Sounds tautological, but it’s true. In a sense, it is only tautological when we expect a greater meaning, a purpose.

So no, evolution is not about life progressing steadily up a ladder, progressively moving toward the godly ideal: which coincidentally is human-like. Talk about tragically narrow-minded.

How’s this for a startling and humbling evolutionary fact:

“A horse’s foot is simpler than a human foot (it has only a single digit instead of five, for example), but the human foot is more primitive (the ancestor that we share with horses had five digits, as we do, so the horse has changed more.” p. 157

Similarly, within a genus of species, forms have evolved with eyes only to later lose them to one degree or another (such as in the case of cave-dwelling fish and reptiles). What kind of ladder is that?

I came away from this section of Dawkins’ book with the insight that the idea of a missing link is a substantially bogus concept. First, because change is gradual and of degree, and second due to the expectation of inevitable advance.

I’ll end with a quote I particularly enjoyed.

“Think about the first specimen of Homo habilis to be born. Her parents were Australopithicus. She belonged to a different genus from her parents? That’s just dopey! Yes it certainly is. But it is not reality that’s at fault, it’s our human insistence on shoving everything into a named category.” p. 195

Words. Though they are fantastic tools, they do have limits.
 
I hope that didn't deserve a face-palm.
Well, it would, if you weren't at least interested enough to ask. You are kind of off, but asking is the only way to learn. 👍
You went off track when you said dogs evolved into horses or vice versa. Long ago, some creature's offspring were slightly more like a modern day dog, and those survived, where less doglike creatures died. After many generations, the descendents of those creatures are the dogs we know today (though todays dogs are widely varied, with lots of different genes that aren't killed off, leading to many different kinds of dogs within the species). The same goes for horses. The only link between dogs and horses is the creature that gave birth to the ancestors of both dogs and horses, which probably has already been identified by science.

Often, people dismiss evolution because they think it says monkeys evolved into humans, but really it just says something evolved over a long time into both monkeys and humans. It's like if a mother gives birth to two children, and one of the children is slightly tall, and one is short, and they reproduce with taller and shorter offspring respectively, until generations later you have a species of "talls" and a species of "shorts", when the genetic difference between them is too much for them to reproduce between one another.

Hopefully that makes at least some sense. If you want a more clear understanding, I suggest looking up some info online or in books, or reading the many insightful posts in this very thread, which explain evolution much better than I do. :)👍
 
Basically, it's the process of elimination.

Anyway, I have what you might consider to be a really dumb and obvious question, but I never bothered asking anyone because, well, I never cared. (And I'm not exactly the most educated person in this field)

So, for example, we have dogs, and we have horses. According to evolution, one of the two came first, and one evolved into the other (I hope this is all right so far). Now, that means we should have something in-between, like a half horse half dog (Maybe a deer). So why on earth can't we find what scientists call "intermediate links" (I hope I'm still on course here). I would image there would be millions, if not billions of them (fossilized of course).

I hope that didn't deserve a face-palm.

Some others will explain this more elaborately, but I'll try to simplify this.

Basically, both dogs and horses came from a common ancestor. Much like a pair of secondary branches of a tree both share a common main branch.

Fossils require a very peculiar set of of circumstances to form. They are a result of a dead specimen being preserved long enough to form a fossil into the rock. In most cases the specimen has to be buried quickly for this to occur. (Like for instance, a massive sandstorm, or a landslide) Otherwise the specimen could become carrion, or if isn't consumed, gradually become a part of the soil. There are indeed many, many generations of species that are yet to be discovered, or never will be discovered, because of the circumstances required to form fossils.

Essentially, anything that couldn't happen, didn't, and things that happened, well, happened. :lol: There are billions of different possibilities for the formation of the solar system, for example, but the solar system of today, is the solar system that we see today, because none of those other possibilities ever occurred. Jupiter could have gathered more matter and became a secondary star, but that never happened, which is why it isn't.

Evolution of life is the same thing basically. It only matters what happened, and not what could have happened. It is essentially history, or a recording of historical events. Horses are horses, because of circumstances that allowed horses to exist.


Hope that makes sense. :lol:
 
You need to read about how evolution works. It's not how you think it is.
I feel sad for people who don't bother to fully understand something before deciding that it isn't possible. No offense, but please try and learn what evolution actually is before pitying those who do understand it.

I understand the "theory" and not once did I say it isn't possible.
The world and everything natural in it is so beautiful, perfectly balanced and reliant upon one another, its hard to believe that its all down to evolution ONLY.
 
I understand the "theory" and not once did I say it isn't possible.
The world and everything natural in it is so beautiful, perfectly balanced and reliant upon one another, its hard to believe that its all down to evolution ONLY.

Evolution isn't a prime mover. It isn't deus ex machina. Again, it describes the process and only the process. Survival of the Fittest is simply too simple a term to describe how species evolve.

It's more survival of the fittest or sexiest or luckiest or... there are many inter-related factors that dictate a species' survival. Dinosaurids were arguably the fittest animals ever... and could have lived on till modern times as Earth's predominant life-form (instead of leaving a paltry number of gene-lines that eventually evolved into birds) if not for the intervention of a natural disaster that wiped them out (though this is also debated).

Isn't it amazing how many beautiful forms and structures arise from Engineering alone? Like the term "Evolution", Engineering is merely a label. The ways in which Engineering is performed are myriad.
 
I understand the "theory" and not once did I say it isn't possible.
The world and everything natural in it is so beautiful, perfectly balanced and reliant upon one another, its hard to believe that its all down to evolution ONLY.
I think I'm starting to see what you're saying. You accept evolution, but believe there is an outside force involved in the process that creates the worlds creatures (correct me if this is not what you're saying)?

Whether or not that is true, it doesn't change the fact that your understanding of evolution is flawed. I suggest you learn more about the process of evolution and reevaluate your opinion on the subject. You may find that evolution as it is observed does not require any "outside forces" to create the animals we have today. Or you may not. I'm not trying to force opinions down your throat, but the best way to form an accurate opinion is to get more information.
 
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