Creation vs. Evolution

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You obviously dont understand what I mean.

You should respect every persons beliefs no matter what YOU believe. You dont scream "THATS SO STUPID WHY WOULD YOU BELIEVE IN THAT" to a person in real life, would you? If so, then you dont have a heart.

Also, what I ment by saying that its rediculous is the fact that there is no possible answer to this question, so why bother creating a thread where you just watch everyone scream at each other and flame? 👎

I don't know if you've noticed this part of the site before, but it's called the "Opinions & Current Events" forum. There's threads for news stories, threads for general sociopolitical discussions and, everywhere, people may post their opinions.

I'm sorry if you can only see an exchange of opposing opinions as "screaming" and "flaming", as opposed to discussion, but the participants in these discussions are not always so bound. If you read back earlier in the thread you will see discussions between myself, danoff, Touring Mars, Duke and Swift particularly - four of us on one side of a discussion and one on the other. There's a similar story in the global warming threads, only it's not the same division. There's a similar story in even earlier threads, with a different division again. And the five of us are quite good e-friends - not something that would happen if we were "screaming" and "flaming". danoff came to my wedding.

With that in mind, there are further issues with your assertions:


DriverD00d
1. There is no answer to this question

This is nonsense. Half of the problem here is that there is an answer but some believe that answer is wrong.

DriverD00d
2. People believe what they want to believe

Which is irrelevant.

DriverD00d
3. You need to respect what others believe

Which is untrue. If someone believes I should die, I'm not going to say "Well, you're certainly entitled to that belief and I respaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!"

DriverD00d
4. It is stupid and immature to argue about it nonstop; the fact this thread has over 340 pages is rediculous

Which is a misrepresentation - it's a discussion - and discussion is considerably more mature than attempting to put a stop to it with an insulting statement of everyone else's stupidity.

And it's "ridiculous". No "e".
 
Thats YOUR belief, not everyones belief, so stop being so ignorant.
So you're saying I should respect others' belief that the world is flat? And that it is in fact ignorant of me not to?

Sorry, I'm not going to show any respect for beliefs that are themselves entrenched in ignorance. With all the knowledge we now possess, there are some beliefs that just have the odds stacked so far against them that the chances of them being true are virtually zero. This applies to all mankind's silly outdated religions.
 
So you're saying I should respect others' belief that the world is flat? And that it is in fact ignorant of me not to?

Sorry, I'm not going to show any respect for beliefs that are themselves entrenched in ignorance. With all the knowledge we now possess, there are some beliefs that just have the odds stacked so far against them that the chances of them being true are virtually zero. This applies to all mankind's silly outdated religions.


Well, as long as they have heard that it is not flat then you can flame them all you want.

All Im trying to say is that there is no answer to this question, only thoughts and beliefs and opinions.
 
Well, as long as they have heard that it is not flat then you can flame them all you want.

All Im trying to say is that there is no answer to this question, only thoughts and beliefs and opinions.

No, actually there's quite a bit of evidence in favor of one side.
 
Depends how you look at it, or what you consider as evidence. A member of my church gave a quick speech a few weeks ago....

He was diagnosed with low grade lymphoma, which is un-curable. After attending many healing sessions at a local church, and just a few weeks after his diagnosis, it was gone (Along with a few tumors he had previously had). Medical records and actual data from the hospital confirmed his diagnosis. The doctors had absolutely no explanation. But he credits this to God.

This, of course, falls under the category, "Just because there's no explanation does not mean it's God". However, this actual happens more frequently than you think. I've heard at least five stories like this throughout my life (four of which are from my own community). It's not the fact that these people are living through near death experiences, it's the fact that they all credit God. I don't understand why you never hear about this happening to others (Non-God believers).

And yes, I understand this is not "evidence". Just a thought I had

I don't know, sounds pretty evidentiary to me.

To SCJ: Everything is an intermediate species.

Hmm, kind of funny how we all seem to be stuck there at the same time.

You would think after 5000 years, something would have edged out ahead

If you read back earlier in the thread you will see discussions between myself, danoff, Touring Mars, Duke and Swift particularly - four of us on one side of a discussion and one on the other.

I wonder who that Dude was? :P

This is getting more and more like old Home week.
 
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I don't know, sounds pretty evidentiary to me.

Sounds like people in his community enjoy spinning a yarn, actually.

Reason why you get a bunch of these types of stories from religious folk? They're all too eager to use their story as a proof for God's existence. In reality, there could be any number of better explanations. Medical science isn't perfect, nor are doctors and their diagnoses.

In other words, it's about as plausible that God cured 'em as it is that a dog sneezing on the other side of the planet cured 'em. You can't outright prove it, but the people are cured, so it must be true! Right?

Hmm, kind of funny how we all seem to be stuck there at the same time.

You would think after 5000 years, something would have edged out ahead

Edged out ahead... of what, exactly? If you're asking why we, the most supreme species on this Earth, aren't the only species left... it's because we're not the most supreme species on this Earth. Species are born from evolution through need to adapt to a specific environment. And guess what? There's quite a lot of diversity when it comes to environments on this planet. So some species are adapted for a certain enviroment, other species are adapted for other environments. Evolution cannot create an "all-terrain" species that is the best suited for every single environment possible.
 
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Current life (or extant life) edged out ahead of extinct life, which is why extinct species no longer exist. Again, we are merely seeing the result of historical events.
 
You misunderstand the nature of what you disagree with. That is what is simple. Your above link, which has nothing to do with what you post immediately after it, is a clear indication of that, along with your assertion that science should be able to disprove the existence of any deity.

The above link was in reference to the my comment about the big bang, and simply stating that science does not have the answers. My post following was simply stating that we disagree, not making any other comment regarding God.
 
Reason why you get a bunch of these types of stories from religious folk? They're all too eager to use their story as a proof for God's existence.

Yes I'm sure they planned to get terribly sick then somehow get cured whilst crediting God. Fact is, basically everyone else died from what these people are living through. (I've even met one). I've never heard of atheists with stories as such.

In reality, there could be any number of better explanations. Medical science isn't perfect, nor are doctors and their diagnoses.

That's probably true in some cases. However, there are those that are undeniable. (AKA Unexplained/unknown)

In other words, it's about as plausible that God cured 'em as it is that a dog sneezing on the other side of the planet cured 'em. You can't outright prove it, but the people are cured, so it must be true! Right?

The odds are not in your favor, but you are technically correct.
 
I find this to be basically what I am explaining from what Scaff has given us:

"Science cannot prove that God doesn’t exist, or that God may have once put in place all known physical laws and processes that shaped the universe and everything in it.

Science cannot challenge faith, which by its very nature, does not require evidence (many scientists are religious people who see no contradiction between their faith and work and many people of faith see no contradiction with what science can explain)."

What I find rather interesting is just how selective you have been with the link I provided and how much of it you have latched onto, while failing to mention or reference over 95% on the material provided.

In particular missing out the passage that is directly before the parts you have chosen to quote, so let me fill that missing part in, as it puts an entirely different frame on what you have quoted.

The missing (and rather significant) bit
But I’ve just come across an intriguing piece of research that may, to coin a phrase, put an evolutionary cat among the believing flock of creation scientists, many of whom believe in the literal account of Genesis.

One scientist has decided to use creation science to test the validity of evolution.

Because, he says, if it turns out that creation science proves evolution, then by its own logic, it will have to reject its own canon of research that previously denied it.

It’s a clever idea, because it once again puts evidence, rather than faith, at the centre of the debate.


As does the rest of the full article and supporting material.


Scaff
 
Sounds like people in his community enjoy spinning a yarn, actually.

We appear to have a genuine skeptic in the crowd.
Imagine that.

Reason why you get a bunch of these types of stories from religious folk? They're all too eager to use their story as a proof for God's existence. In reality, there could be any number of better explanations. Medical science isn't perfect, nor are doctors and their diagnoses.

I wonder if the same could be true about other branches of Science?

In other words, it's about as plausible that God cured 'em as it is that a dog sneezing on the other side of the planet cured 'em.

I hope thats not one of your better explanations.

Evolution cannot create an "all-terrain" species that is the best suited for every single environment possible.

Well, I don't know why not:

The basic theory does not assume lower or upper boundaries for the ability of species to change.
 
Because, he says, if it turns out that creation science proves evolution, then by its own logic, it will have to reject its own canon of research that previously denied it.

So, having to reject creation science that proves evolution means having to reject evolution also. by the same merit?

[/troll logic]
 
The above link was in reference to the my comment about the big bang, and simply stating that science does not have the answers.

Which is two misrepresentations in one. First, you said science used faith as evidence - which is untrue - and secondly science does have the answers. It just doesn't presently have the entire answer and such answers as it has are intensely complicated - so complicated, in fact, that they're incredibly difficult to explain, not readily understandable and, as such, easily perverted into "belief" by those with a belief agenda.

My post following was simply stating that we disagree, not making any other comment regarding God.

You disagree because you do not understand what it is you're disagreeing with. Your assertion "Prove to me that God does not exist. Science should be able to do that." is fairly solid evidence that you do not understand what it is you're disagreeing with.

So, having to reject creation science that proves evolution means having to reject evolution also. by the same merit?

It's quite a fun article. The researcher uses techniques of "creation science" and proves a central tenet of it - baraminology - to be wrong.

So either "creation scientists" accept his findings and reject creation or they reject his findings and reject "creation science".
 
We can cherry pick a sentence and completely fill a deviated meaning into almost anything anybody says. I am here to discuss not argue.

I never said I believed in a literal interpretation of the Bible (from my first post). The other 95% of the article was not what I was attempting to refer to. I do not disagree entirely with the article; I found that one part that I quoted to be the most interesting (in my opinion). Remember the Bible was written by man, primarily in Hebrew. It has since been translated multiple times. Every time it is translated is further "interpreted" to mean something different. We know by our standard of a day, that God could not have created the earth in our definition of 7 days. But the Bible does not define a day in God's eyes. Man wrote the Bible, the same man that created science. If man is flawed in thinking of religion then man is also likely to be flawed in science. Not all science is fact.

Evolution is a science as much as a theory. No scientist can take a human and map our direct descendents with complete accuracy. Why, because we cannot test evolution in the time and scale that something occurred. I do not disagree that evolution occurs, nor am I arguing the evolution is false. We know for a fact the human heart is similar to a pig’s heart. We know we are similar to mice, in many ways. But to say we evolved from mice or pigs is just a theory. All living creatures contain carbon atoms. So are we all derived from carbon? Who knows? Science may one day prove that is true. But evolution does not disprove, or even prove, the existence of God and creationism. I still do not see why it is one way or the other. It is not black and white; there is a lot gray, and a lot of theories that float around. Interpretation is needed by any human being to interpret findings. Saying the science is a bunch of facts is a complete lie. Science is as much theory into how something works and acts as it is based on scientific date. Data con correlate all day long, and we can draw conclusions but that does not mean they are inherently fact.

To give an example: Before the big bang, or even further, since we really have no idea where "all of this" started, we had to come from something. By a simple leap, space and time had to start and something had to set everything in motion. Existence of matter had to start somewhere. String theory attempts to explain, but by its very nature it is only a bunch of mathematical proofs attempting to explain the beginning of time (none of which can probably ever be tested to confirm or deny it as fact).

I cannot prove God and I cannot prove creationism. However science often fails in the simplest of forms. Medical science is one in which every day, we find new things, and continue to change theories and ideas. Often what was true ten years ago is disproved. Ten to twenty years ago celiac disease did not exist, now it is almost a household name in the US. That doesn't mean that science is wrong and we throw it under the bus. However on a personal side, when science fails one, one must wonder why. When all reality and science fails you must wonder why.

You can believe or not believe. Never has creationism been taught in any school I attended. Only in college was religion even brought up and that was not in a science class. I am not here to argue against evolution, I am simply here to state the evolution and creationism are and can very well be one and of the same (in my opinion). It is my opinion.
 
Well again, no one is claiming that science is perfect, but it's still got infinetely more merit than religous belief. And that's the point in this creation vs. science debate.

It's evolving, getting better everyday, while creationism is based on thin air.
 
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We can cherry pick a sentence and completely fill a deviated meaning into almost anything anybody says. I am here to discuss not argue.

I never said I believed in a literal interpretation of the Bible (from my first post). The other 95% of the article was not what I was attempting to refer to. I do not disagree entirely with the article; I found that one part that I quoted to be the most interesting (in my opinion). Remember the Bible was written by man, primarily in Hebrew. It has since been translated multiple times. Every time it is translated is further "interpreted" to mean something different. We know by our standard of a day, that God could not have created the earth in our definition of 7 days. But the Bible does not define a day in God's eyes. Man wrote the Bible, the same man that created science. If man is flawed in thinking of religion then man is also likely to be flawed in science. Not all science is fact.

Evolution is a science as much as a theory. No scientist can take a human and map our direct descendents with complete accuracy. Why, because we cannot test evolution in the time and scale that something occurred. I do not disagree that evolution occurs, nor am I arguing the evolution is false. We know for a fact the human heart is similar to a pig’s heart. We know we are similar to mice, in many ways. But to say we evolved from mice or pigs is just a theory. All living creatures contain carbon atoms. So are we all derived from carbon? Who knows? Science may one day prove that is true. But evolution does not disprove, or even prove, the existence of God and creationism. I still do not see why it is one way or the other. It is not black and white; there is a lot gray, and a lot of theories that float around. Interpretation is needed by any human being to interpret findings. Saying the science is a bunch of facts is a complete lie. Science is as much theory into how something works and acts as it is based on scientific date. Data con correlate all day long, and we can draw conclusions but that does not mean they are inherently fact.

To give an example: Before the big bang, or even further, since we really have no idea where "all of this" started, we had to come from something. By a simple leap, space and time had to start and something had to set everything in motion. Existence of matter had to start somewhere. String theory attempts to explain, but by its very nature it is only a bunch of mathematical proofs attempting to explain the beginning of time (none of which can probably ever be tested to confirm or deny it as fact).

I cannot prove God and I cannot prove creationism. However science often fails in the simplest of forms. Medical science is one in which every day, we find new things, and continue to change theories and ideas. Often what was true ten years ago is disproved. Ten to twenty years ago celiac disease did not exist, now it is almost a household name in the US. That doesn't mean that science is wrong and we throw it under the bus. However on a personal side, when science fails one, one must wonder why. When all reality and science fails you must wonder why.

Every time you invoke "science" you get it wrong. You don't know what science is, you misunderstand its nature and you misrepresent it. Every. Time. Your segue into the beginnings of the universe is yet another example of this - not understanding the theories behind them is no reason to dismiss them as "only mathematical proofs" and a failure of science. New medicines and new diseases are not failures of science, but successes of science.


So long as you keep doing this, there is nothing to discuss and your opinion is based on a distortion of reality. That's also the reason this thread is as long as it is.
 
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Every time you invoke "science" you get it wrong. You don't know what science is, you misunderstand its nature and you misrepresent it. Every. Time.

So long as you keep doing this, there is nothing to discuss and your opinion is based on a distortion of reality. That's also the reason this thread is as long as it is.

I think this is all you need Famine:

"97.3% of Biological Sciences department heads accept there is no scientific controversy over evolution." - http://www.csicop.org/intelligentdes...ntroversy.html
 
The thread has 6,900 posts in it. If it was really that simple, it'd have two posts in it.

The discussion only continues through misunderstanding and misrepresentation of knowledge. It'd take no effort at all for those who don't get it, or won't get it, to dismiss that quote without a second thought.
 
Man wrote the Bible, the same man that created science. If man is flawed in thinking of religion then man is also likely to be flawed in science. Not all science is fact.
An essential difference, however, is that when science is wrong, it can be corrected. The scientific method ensures that theories are constantly being tested and refined. There is no hiding place for a theory that has been comprehensively discredited by the evidence - except maybe for the creationist literature, of course.

to say we evolved from mice or pigs is just a theory.
Not a theory, but a hypothesis - and a demonstrably false one. To say we evolved from the same species as mice or pigs, however, is a hypothesis that is demonstrably true, though. There are enough physical similarities between mice and humans and pigs to reliably conclude that, somewhere in the dim and distant past, around 100 million years ago, there existed a small mammal species that is a common distant relative to all living mice and men (and pigs).

So are we all derived from carbon?
I would take that as a given.

Saying the science is a bunch of facts is a complete lie. Science is as much theory into how something works and acts as it is based on scientific date. Data con correlate all day long, and we can draw conclusions but that does not mean they are inherently fact.
Well, science is 'a bunch of facts', but it is also alot more than that. A theory is an overarching explanation for a set of facts that can subsequently be used to make hypotheses, which may be tested by further experiment or by collecting more data.

It is important to realise that speculation and hypothesis is an essential part of the scientific method, but that there is a clear distinction between a theory and a hypothesis. That mice and humans share so many genes is a fact - that this was predicted before the era of genetics was not merely a lucky guess though, but was a specific hypothesis derived from the theory of common descent. Genetic data provided the evidence that verified the hypothesis - mice and humans are genetically related, albeit more distantly than say humans and bonobos, and considerably more distantly than Touring Mars and canderson19. So, it is true that science is not all about facts, but facts are an essential ingredient and the scientific method plays a crucial role in determining what remains regarded as being correct and what should be rejected as being wrong. This ability to discriminate is what gives science its unique power and validity.
 
Some people have already decided what to believe, and no amount of evidence will change them.

Now all I'm waiting for is someone to quote me on this and use it as an argument against science and/or evolution. :D
 
It's evolving, getting better everyday, while creationism is based on air.

I doubt you realize how "Prophetic" this statement is.

Creationism is based in the "spiritual", from the greek "spiro" meaning "breath and air".

Oddly enough its the one thing we will die quickest from if deprived.

Its also been Scientifically proven that at the instant of death, a person loses a few ounces of wieght.

IMO, this is directly attributable to the "spirit" leaving the body.

So like air, the spirit is physically detectable.
 
I doubt you realize how "Prophetic" this statement is.

Creationism is based in the "spiritual", from the greek "spiro" meaning "breath and air".

Oddly enough its the one thing we will die quickest from if deprived.

Its also been Scientifically proven that at the instant of death, a person loses a few ounces of wieght.

IMO, this is directly attributable to the "spirit" leaving the body.

So like air, the spirit is physically detectable.

Or crapping their pants. ;)
 
Its also been Scientifically proven that at the instant of death, a person loses a few ounces of wieght.

IMO, this is directly attributable to the "spirit" leaving the body.

So like air, the spirit is physically detectable.

[Citation Needed]
 
"Dr. Duncan "Om" MacDougall (c. 1866 – October 15, 1920) was an early 20th century physician in Haverhill, Massachusetts who sought to measure the mass purportedly lost by a human body when the soul departed the body upon death." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_(doctor)

Damn, this was done over 90 years ago... Top notch study man.



"MacDougall also measured fifteen dogs in similar circumstances and reported the results as "uniformly negative," with no perceived change in mass. He took these results as confirmation that the soul had weight, and that dogs did not have souls. " - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_(doctor)


Dogs have no souls LMAO

EDIT: this is priceless...

MacDougall's complaints about not being able to find dogs dying of the natural causes that would have been ideal have led at least one author to conjecture that he was in fact poisoning dogs to conduct these experiments


Mikkelson, Barbara; Mikkelson, David P. (October 27, 2003). "Soul Man". Snopes. http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp. Retrieved February 17, 2007. "MacDougall's ... methodology ... was suspect, [his] sample size far too small, and [his] ability to measure changes in weight imprecise. For this reason, credence should not be given to the idea his experiments proved something, let alone that they measured the weight of the soul ... His postulations on this topic are a curiosity, but nothing more." all from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_(doctor)
 
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Even though nobody has been able to duplicate his results, let us assume for the sake of argument that a human does indeed lose 21 grams on average at the moment of death. There is no evidence whatsoever that the missing mass constituted a "soul"; it could have been a giant invisible/inaudible fart for instance. The ultimate S.B.D, if you will.
 
Even though nobody has been able to duplicate his results, let us assume for the sake of argument that a human does indeed lose 21 grams on average at the moment of death. There is no evidence whatsoever that the missing mass constituted a "soul"; it could have been a giant invisible/inaudible fart for instance. The ultimate S.B.D, if you will.

👍
Lets not forget he most likely murdered dogs and:"MacDougall's ... methodology ... was suspect, [his] sample size far too small, and [his] ability to measure changes in weight imprecise. For this reason, credence should not be given to the idea his experiments proved something, let alone that they measured the weight of the soul ... His postulations on this topic are a curiosity, but nothing more."


EDIT: ell470 is lovin this stuff lol
 

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