Creation vs. Evolution

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So, for example, we have dogs, and we have horses. According to evolution, one of the two came first, and one evolved into the other (I hope this is all right so far). Now, that means we should have something in-between, like a half horse half dog (Maybe a deer). So why on earth can't we find what scientists call "intermediate links" (I hope I'm still on course here). I would image there would be millions, if not billions of them (fossilized of course).

In addition to what dylansan and GP have already said, it is quite misleading to think of common ancestors as 'something in-between' two modern day species. The most recent common ancestor (MRCA) of both horses and dogs was also an ancestor of a plethora of other species (see here for example). Furthermore, the MRCA of horses and dogs would also have had ancestors of its own that are also common ancestors of dogs and horses, but would also be a common ancestor to even more mammals. Ultimately, the entire order of mammals are descended from just one single species. That species may never be precisely known, but there is fossil evidence of extinct species that share common characteristics with all modern day mammals, exactly as predicted by the theory of common descent.
 
I will preface by saying that I am Christian...

With that said, I think both have truths. I do not believe the world was created 5k, 10k or even 100k years ago. However creationism does not say that it must have been created x years ago. By scientific data, we know that rocks and even fossils are way older than 100k years, so believing the world is only 5k years old is slightly silly. Nowhere in the Bible does it define a day in God's eyes (old testament). We don't know if a day is 1000 years long or a trillion years long.

All of that said, science cannot explain how everything started. Science cannot explain the almost 20-50% of matter that is missing in the universe. Science cannot explain the size and scope of the universe. To believe that science is all knowing and that everything is just by chance in my opinion is foolish as well. For the atoms to line up perfectly and create a human gene has the odds of about 1 in 1 to the 64th power (that is one with 64 zeros behind it - if I did that right).

I love it when science and religion can coexist. More and more 'scientists' are starting to realize that there is no science that can explain everything. For me it would be simply foolish to take all of the science and say it is all false since I am a Christian. It would also be foolish for me not to give credit to my beliefs. Somewhere in the middle is my reality.

As for believing in one for the other; that is everybody’s opinion. Faith takes faith (and work). If a person believes in God they are going to be more likely to give credit to creation. If you are an atheist you are not going to give any light to the fact that creationism even exists (just remember science does not explain it all).
 
Science can not explain these things yet.

Unlike the Bible, science isnt set in stone. It is constantly evolving.
 
Hollidog
Science can not explain these things yet.

Unlike the Bible, science isnt set in stone. It is constantly evolving.

They've rewritten the bible a few times as well, I find that confusing, did 'history' change?

Yes, I am an atheist. :)
 
The same place it leaves the Evolutionist belief.

Take your pick. Its your choice to believe one, or the other.

A book of stories originally written by a bunch of non-scientists over 2000 years ago, which has been reinterpreted over and over again to suit various factions needs.

Or modern scientific theory constantly being updated as and when new information comes to light?

No brainer.
 
A book of stories originally written by a bunch of non-scientists over 2000 years ago, trying to explain why the world goes around and why there is a sun in the sky to a bunch of people with the intelligence of a seven year old, which has been reinterpreted over and over again to suit various factions needs.

Or modern scientific theory constantly being updated as and when new information comes to light?

No brainer.
.
 
I will preface by saying that I am Christian...

With that said, I think both have truths. I do not believe the world was created 5k, 10k or even 100k years ago. However creationism does not say that it must have been created x years ago. By scientific data, we know that rocks and even fossils are way older than 100k years, so believing the world is only 5k years old is slightly silly. Nowhere in the Bible does it define a day in God's eyes (old testament). We don't know if a day is 1000 years long or a trillion years long.

All of that said, science cannot explain how everything started. Science cannot explain the almost 20-50% of matter that is missing in the universe. Science cannot explain the size and scope of the universe. To believe that science is all knowing and that everything is just by chance in my opinion is foolish as well. For the atoms to line up perfectly and create a human gene has the odds of about 1 in 1 to the 64th power (that is one with 64 zeros behind it - if I did that right).

I love it when science and religion can coexist. More and more 'scientists' are starting to realize that there is no science that can explain everything. For me it would be simply foolish to take all of the science and say it is all false since I am a Christian. It would also be foolish for me not to give credit to my beliefs. Somewhere in the middle is my reality.

As for believing in one for the other; that is everybody’s opinion. Faith takes faith (and work). If a person believes in God they are going to be more likely to give credit to creation. If you are an atheist you are not going to give any light to the fact that creationism even exists (just remember science does not explain it all).

No one is claiming that science is all knowing, but science is the only method of explaining reality that has actually got any merit. Science is the only method that tries hard to prove it's claims. It's also constantly evolving as new information surfaces, if something is found to be wrong it gets thrown away.

You are correct in that science can't explain everything, but it may one day. We don't know the limits. But there's no doubt that it's the right method to use. Any religous explaination will always fall short because religion is not about evidence, it's about faith, which is fine. But a bad basis for finding out about reality.

Religion is fine on a personal basis, but should not mix with science.
 
No one is claiming that science is all knowing, but science is the only method of explaining reality that has actually got any merit. Science is the only method that tries hard to prove it's claims. It's also constantly evolving as new information surfaces, if something is found to be wrong it gets thrown away.

You are correct in that science can't explain everything, but it may one day. We don't know the limits. But there's no doubt that it's the right method to use. Any religous explaination will always fall short because religion is not about evidence, it's about faith, which is fine. But a bad basis for finding out about reality.

Religion is fine on a personal basis, but should not mix with science.

A good bit of physics has no merit in reality. It does not make sense (quantum physics, etc.)

It doesn't have to mix. But time and time again, science and religion can coexist and often relate to one another. Science is not set in stone as somebody said, and how exactly is faith and creationism? If you believe in a literal interpretation then yes I guess you can say some is set in stone. However as somebody else said, it was written 2,000 years ago. It was also written by man...Man did not create the earth, and man will never fully understand how and why. I think people that bash creationism are very narrow minded. You look around, see only what you want to see, and say it is one way or the highway.
 
@SuperCobraJet (and others). A recent study shows an evolutionary process in yeast. And it doesn't take a zillion years.

source (in Dutch) http://www.nu.nl/wetenschap/2549283/snelle-evolutie-kan-soorten-helpen-overleven.html
and their source: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/332/6035/1327

It comes down to this: Yeast has a very well known DNA and reproduces in mere hours. They exposed thousands of populations of yeast cells to a pollutant (salt), in a slowly increasing concentration. It showed that after only 50 to 100 generations the yeast was able to survive salt concentrations that would have killed their ancestors from before the experiment.
They also pointed out that some contact with other yeast populations in the experiment was good, but too much contact was bad.
The problem is that the yeast didn't turn into a horse, so the argument won't work on SCJ.
Yeah, that was my major concern. :D

Glad that SCJ had a great laugh too. And I'm even more happy that you (SCJ) didn't respond to my text, because that means (I hope) that you didn't have one of your textbook retorts at hand and couldn't think of something yourself. So maybe it got you thinking a bit, and there might still be hope for you yet. (fingers crossed)
 
A book of stories originally written by a bunch of non-scientists over 2000 years ago, which has been reinterpreted over and over again to suit various factions needs.

Or modern scientific theory constantly being updated as and when new information comes to light?

No brainer.

In your eyes it might be. I think you lost the point as well. You have a choice, I have a choice. I believe one thing, you belive something esle. You imply they both change, and both evolve. Don't group everybody in one bucket and say it is all or nothing.

Using 'creation science' to test 'evolution theory'....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/wondermonkey/2011/07/faith-versus-science-does-crea.shtml


....personaly I found it rather interesting, particularly if you read all the material.


Scaff

I find this to be basically what I am explaining from what Scaff has given us:

"Science cannot prove that God doesn’t exist, or that God may have once put in place all known physical laws and processes that shaped the universe and everything in it.

Science cannot challenge faith, which by its very nature, does not require evidence (many scientists are religious people who see no contradiction between their faith and work and many people of faith see no contradiction with what science can explain)."
 
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A good bit of physics has no merit in reality. It does not make sense (quantum physics, etc.)

It doesn't have to mix. But time and time again, science and religion can coexist and often relate to one another. Science is not set in stone as somebody said, and how exactly is faith and creationism? If you believe in a literal interpretation then yes I guess you can say some is set in stone. However as somebody else said, it was written 2,000 years ago. It was also written by man...Man did not create the earth, and man will never fully understand how and why. I think people that bash creationism are very narrow minded. You look around, see only what you want to see, and say it is one way or the highway.

I don't think bashing creationism is narrow minded or unfounded at all. If you don't have any evidence for your claims then what are your claims worth? That's one of the problems with creationism.

Add to that the often very poor quality of their argumentation as well as poor (and perhaps deliberately so) understanding of the theory of evolution. It makes creationism hard to take seriously.
 
No, that's your assumption. The basic theory does not assume lower or upper boundaries for the ability of species to change.

Your right.
It doesn't really assume them, it just turns a blind eye to it, and refuses to recognize them.

There is no "Law of Gravity". There is "Newton's Law of Gravity" and Einstein's General Relativity which both put forward explanations of the observed effects of gravity (which are not universally observable... they're only observable to us because we live inside a gravity well... vacuum dwellers might have a different view...), but there is no "Law" as you state. Just the observation that bodies tend to attract each other through unknown means.

*Strangely, despite being superseded by General Relativity, Newton's Theory is still "Law..."

To paraphrase one of your statements, you do realize the law of gravity was around before You or Newton.

Just as we see an abundance of genetically similar but distinct species and we see incomplete speciation and even the process of speciation (flies, weeds, bacteria, etcetera ad infinitum) but cannot directly observe the means by which this comes to pass. Thus, our understanding of Gravity is the same as our understanding of Evolution. In fact, it's a whole level less well defined than Evolution, because you can actually observe speciation at the genetic level if you have the right equipment. You can't observe "gravitons."

Neither can you observe Evolution on the scale claimed.
I can observe the repeatable result of gravity readily at any time.
Likewise, I can observe the repeatable result of like-kind reproduction at any time.
Thats because they are fixed laws.
The possibility of Evolution exsists only in the abstract, untestable, unobservable, unsubstantiatable, time frame.

Evolution does not claim that species "jump." All it claims is that they change over time, which they do. Only once such changes become incontrovertible and the species can no longer mate with other sub-species or the base species does they become new ones. No "jumps" required. Just thousands upon thousands of generations of change.

Quite convienent, wouldn't you say?
Just plug in an irrefutable unpredictable time expanse.
Too bad its unsubstantiatable as well.

Evolution makes no claims as to the endpoint of adaptation. Just the process..

Round and round she goes, where she stops, nobody knows.
Perhaps you could take a stab at what it claims from the common ancestor up to the present?

[Horses don't always produce horses. Haven't we been through this already last year? Horses have partially speciated, which is why we have Donkeys, Mules and Zebramules and other imperfect offspring of the miscegenetization between horses. .


Well this should hold great promise for intermediate species.
All of these have been around for quite sometime.
How many new species have developed, particularly from the mule side?

[Mules are an exception, in your book. But an exception to what? In science, exceptions don't prove the rule. They kill it. Any hypothesis which doesn't allow for mules is automatically bunk.

Its an exception in that you can breed two somewhat different species and get an offspring.
But then it is totally nullified by sterilization.
So much for that new species.
Thats just what it does to Evolution. Kills it.

Yet there are no exceptions to Evolution. Species which do not appear to physically change over time do not disprove Evolution, as it does not require that species exhibit morphological change if they survive just fine.

I think we're back to the claims again.

Flies? Flies are the easiest of all creatures to speciate. Scientists do it in the laboratory over lunch, for fun.

Yes and they still get flies.
Big surprise.

Note: You can't just handwave this away: "But they're still horses and flies." All equines are horses and all flies are... flies only in the same manner that all primates are chimpanzees. It's a semantic falsehood.

No, its an observable, repeatable, constant.
And you claim to know so much about Science. :sly:
 
I don't think bashing creationism is narrow minded or unfounded at all. If you don't have any evidence for your claims then what are your claims worth? That's one of the problems with creationism.

Add to that the often very poor quality of their argumentation as well as poor (and perhaps deliberately so) understanding of the theory of evolution. It makes creationism hard to take seriously.

That is your opinion. Prove to me that God does not exist. Science should be able to do that. Belief in God and religion is by faith. You either have it or don't. I have also not argued that evolution has not taken place. I am merely saying evolution and creationism, in my opinion, are one and of the same.
 
That is your opinion. Prove to me that God does not exist. Science should be able to do that. Belief in God and religion is by faith. You either have it or don't. I have also not argued that evolution has not taken place. I am merely saying evolution and creationism, in my opinion, are one and of the same.

The burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim in the first place. Otherwise one could claim all manner of things and when questioned simply say it up to them to disprove it. It doesn't work that way.

There's no real evidence of God's existence in the first place. So you can't base something other than personal belief on it. Hence why creationism doesn't work.
 
The burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim in the first place. Otherwise one could claim all manner of things and when questioned simply say it up to them to disprove it. It doesn't work that way.

There's no real evidence of God's existence in the first place. So you can't base something other than personal belief on it. Hence why creationism doesn't work.

Again it is by faith. That is your evidence. Look around you, and accect others have different beliefs. Prove to me without a doubt that science understands everything about genetics and evolution. Prove to me it happend the way you say it does. You can't. You can only assume by what you read. You have no basis that we all came from yeast. It is a theory. There is no rock hard evidence that supports your claim of evolution. What was there before science, and what was there to create something from nothing? Technically nothing exixted before the big bang. That is a "fact" from science.
 
There's no real evidence of God's existence in the first place.

Depends how you look at it, or what you consider as evidence. A member of my church gave a quick speech a few weeks ago....

He was diagnosed with low grade lymphoma, which is un-curable. After attending many healing sessions at a local church, and just a few weeks after his diagnosis, it was gone (Along with a few tumors he had previously had). Medical records and actual data from the hospital confirmed his diagnosis. The doctors had absolutely no explanation. But he credits this to God.

This, of course, falls under the category, "Just because there's no explanation does not mean it's God". However, this actual happens more frequently than you think. I've heard at least five stories like this throughout my life (four of which are from my own community). It's not the fact that these people are living through near death experiences, it's the fact that they all credit God. I don't understand why you never hear about this happening to others (Non-God believers).

And yes, I understand this is not "evidence". Just a thought I had
 
Again it is by faith. That is your evidence. Look around you, and accect others have different beliefs. Prove to me without a doubt that science understands everything about genetics and evolution. Prove to me it happend the way you say it does. You can't. You can only assume by what you read. You have no basis that we all came from yeast. It is a theory. There is no rock hard evidence that supports your claim of evolution. What was there before science, and what was there to create something from nothing? Technically nothing exixted before the big bang. That is a "fact" from science.

I do accept that others have different beliefs that's not the point. The point is that creationism should be left out of schools because it's not based on knowledge. It's pure faith and has no place in a educational system.

Science does NOT understand everything. No one claims that. Also I don't get where you got the idea that science says that nothing existed before the big bang.
Science, although not perfect, is by far the best method for explaining reality.

But we digress. This is about evolution vs. creationism.

It all boils down to the fact that one side has tons and tons of evidence and the other side absolutely none.

Depends how you look at it, or what you consider as evidence. A member of my church gave a quick speech a few weeks ago....

He was diagnosed with low grade lymphoma, which is un-curable. After attending many healing sessions at a local church, and just a few weeks after his diagnosis, it was gone (Along with a few tumors he had previously had). Medical records and actual data from the hospital confirmed his diagnosis. The doctors had absolutely no explanation. But he credits this to God.

This, of course, falls under the category, "Just because there's no explanation does not mean it's God". However, this actual happens more frequently than you think. I've heard at least five stories like this throughout my life (four of which are from my own community). It's not the fact that these people are living through near death experiences, it's the fact that they all credit God. I don't understand why you never hear about this happening to others (Non-God believers).

And yes, I understand this is not "evidence". Just a thought I had

You're right, anecdotes(sp?) is not evidence. I also have a hard time believing those stories to be true. There has been so many cases of bluffs and frauds. And not just about healing but about alien abductions, ghosts, bigfoot, nessie etc.

I don't know but I believe that if all these things were true they would have been proven by now and not surrounded by so much bull. There wouldn't such a shroud of mystery.

Not to say all are frauds though. There are cases where people "miracously" get better when it's thought to be impossible, regardless of their faith. But yeah, it's god of the gaps..
 
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I do accept that others have different beliefs that's not the point. The point is that creationism should be left out of schools because it's not based on knowledge. It's pure faith and has no place in a educational system.

Science does NOT understand everything. No one claims that. Also I don't get where you got the idea that science says that nothing existed before the big bang.
Science, although not perfect, is by far the best method for explaining reality.

But we digress. This is about evolution vs. creationism.

It all boils down to the fact that one side has tons and tons of evidence and the other side absolutely none.

http://scienceline.org/2006/08/ask-snyder-bang/

Unknown. Yes we digress. Faith is your evidence.

No it isn't.



No it shouldn't.

We disagree. Simple as that.
 
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You misunderstand the nature of what you disagree with. That is what is simple. Your above link, which has nothing to do with what you post immediately after it, is a clear indication of that, along with your assertion that science should be able to disprove the existence of any deity.
 
Let's leave it at this ~

1. There is no answer to this question

2. People believe what they want to believe

3. You need to respect what others believe

4. It is stupid and immature to argue about it nonstop; the fact this thread has over 340 pages is rediculous


Personally, I believe that we evolved from primitive life forms and that no other higher being created us. Just saying, you dont have to flame people for thinking something.
 
That is your opinion. Prove to me that God does not exist. Science should be able to do that.

YOU CAN NOT PROVE THAT SOMETHING DOES NOT EXIST DAMNIT!!!

Sorry, I just had a bad day and I come here to have some intellectual discussion and see this.

YOU prove to US that God/Allah/Pink Unicorn/Flying Spaghetti Monster DOES exist. Until then, I'd rather accept science. Because it works.
 
Let's leave it at this ~

1. There is no answer to this question

2. People believe what they want to believe

3. You need to respect what others believe

4. It is stupid and immature to argue about it nonstop; the fact this thread has over 340 pages is rediculous


Personally, I believe that we evolved from primitive life forms and that no other higher being created us. Just saying, you dont have to flame people for thinking something.

If you hadn't noticed, there's a "vs." in the title. This thread's very purpose is to argue between two viewpoints. So the fact that you come in here to say we've just gotta agree to disagree is ridiculous.

Lastly, you don't need to respect others' beliefs. Some beliefs are just plain ignorant and deserve no respect at all, religion being one of them.
 
If you hadn't noticed, there's a "vs." in the title. This thread's very purpose is to argue between two viewpoints. So the fact that you come in here to say we've just gotta agree to disagree is ridiculous.

Lastly, you don't need to respect others' beliefs. Some beliefs are just plain ignorant and deserve no respect at all, religion being one of them.

You obviously dont understand what I mean.

You should respect every persons beliefs no matter what YOU believe. You dont scream "THATS SO STUPID WHY WOULD YOU BELIEVE IN THAT" to a person in real life, would you? If so, then you dont have a heart.

Also, what I ment by saying that its rediculous is the fact that there is no possible answer to this question, so why bother creating a thread where you just watch everyone scream at each other and flame? 👎
 
You obviously dont understand what I mean.

You should respect every persons beliefs no matter what YOU believe. You dont scream "THATS SO STUPID WHY WOULD YOU BELIEVE IN THAT" to a person in real life, would you? If so, then you dont have a heart.

Also, what I ment by saying that its rediculous is the fact that there is no possible answer to this question, so why bother creating a thread where you just watch everyone scream at each other and flame? 👎

There is an answer to the question. The creationists just continue to reject logic in favor of the warped beliefs that religion has instilled upon them since childhood.

And no I wouldn't just up and shout that somebody's beliefs are stupid. I may not have any respect for their beliefs, but that doesn't mean I don't have any respect for them. Instead of screaming at them, I'd try explaining to them in a logical and inoffensive manner as to why their beliefs are stupid. :)
 
There is an answer to the question. The creationists just continue to reject logic in favor of the warped beliefs that religion has instilled upon them since childhood.

Thats YOUR belief, not everyones belief, so stop being so ignorant.

Personally, I believe you, but I dont run up to peoples faces and say that. :yuck:
 
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