Aliens

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Is there extraterrestrial life?

  • Yes, and they are not Earth like creatures (non carbon based)

    Votes: 19 2.5%
  • Yes, and they are not Earth like creatures (carbon based)

    Votes: 25 3.3%
  • Yes, and they are not Earth like creatures (carbon and non carbon based)

    Votes: 82 10.8%
  • Yes, and they are humanoid creatures

    Votes: 39 5.1%
  • Yes, and they are those associated with abductions

    Votes: 19 2.5%
  • Yes, but I don't know what they'd be like

    Votes: 379 49.8%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 151 19.8%
  • No, they only exist in movies

    Votes: 47 6.2%

  • Total voters
    761
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/panpsychism/

In my view, part of the discussion of alien life, whether organic or inorganic, must eventually include a look at the nature of consciousness and life in its broadest sense.

I'm wary of clouding the "life" definition with qualifications of consciousness. Partly because not everything we consider life is conscious, and should "life" exist in conscious form alone elsewhere in the universe (i.e. no visible physical attributes) it becomes much harder to discover.
 
I'm wary of clouding the "life" definition with consciousness. Partly because not everything we consider life is conscious, and should "life" exist in conscious form alone elsewhere in the universe (i.e. no visible physical attributes) it becomes much harder to discover.

Yes, I sympathize with that point of view, particularly in light of the "entry-level" nature of this forum.

However, the search for alien life is not an easy one. If there were easy answers, we already would have them in hand.

We have the choice to keep on talking about flying spaghetti monsters, celluloid saucers and Wow! signals, or get into the harder science and philosophy for which few of us are qualified or interested.

I have previously posted in some depth on inorganic life and hinted that the question of consciousness is deeply bound up with the UFO experience. I'm certainly not in the business of inflicting my views on an unwilling audience, and can certainly appreciate the wisdom of leaving well-enough alone.

TM has suggested this question of alien life is an important one for all humanity. But there are certainly other questions that are realistically more important. I'm willing to drop it as far as this particular forum in concerned.

Respectfully,
Steve
 
It took me some time, but I got through it. Way too heavy English for a daily basis. :lol:
Panpsychism states that everything has some sort of a soul, or consciousness, right? Even inorganic matter?
With that in mind, a plasma-based sort of consiousness (lifeform?) could be possible?

Am I correct?

Probably not, but maybe. At this time it is speculation but based on hard science. The question has prompted some scientists to make experiments into the properties of inorganic life based on dusty plasmas, and publish papers. I have posted the science links in a previous post. A top British astronomer/physicist of a few years ago, Sir Freddy Hoyle, even wrote a sci-fi novel, "The Black Cloud", based on this hypothesis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Cloud

I don't think panpsychism in particular is a requirement for conscious inorganic life. But it provides one interesting wrinkle on the question.

Respectfully,
Steve
 
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I just can't believe this thread has reached nigh-on 50 pages without mentioning They're Made Out of Meat, perhaps I missed it. Thank you all for the entertaining and informative reading.

I've never specifically seen Panpsychism before; reading the opening, however, I immediately started waiting for a Monadologie mention, which seems much more interesting in the light of quantum mechanics, Sum over Histories (and, well, gravity), and Liebniz's co-invention of calculus. I think he was trying to integrate (pardon) his sense of religion with how the world worked; ironically, I suspect he was trying to get God back in, unlike Spinoza. Liebniz was quite a dude; I admit to becoming more interested after the Baroque Cycle. Anathem also, of course.

They're both very likely guilty of trying to add more turtles than necessary, IMHO. WRT Panpsychism vs emergentism, being forced to explain how something as complex as consciousness could be emergent behaviour is far from even being socratically fair play, if there is such a thing, when clearly magnificently complex emergent behaviours are possible. Does it seem philosophers have become complacent over in semiotics and such now that we don't have to worry so much about determinism?

Has anyone read the Algebraist?
 
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I just can't believe this thread has reached nigh-on 50 pages without mentioning They're Made Out of Meat, perhaps I missed it. Thank you all for the entertaining and informative reading.

Hi, Ealirendur. Thanks for your post. I really enjoyed "They're Made out of Meat". Puts things in a nice perspective. Hoyle would've approved.

I'm a huge fan of Stephenson's "Cryptonomicon" and "The Baroque Cycle". I'll pick up "Anathem", which I was unaware of until you mentioned it. Seems like I'll need the "Algebraist", too!

Respectfully,
Steve
 
Be aware that it has at least as many space opera elements as SF; it has especially cool (and on-topic) aliens, however. The title would lead one to believe there would be somewhat more maths strewn throughout, so it may be best to lower those particular expectations.
 
I just can't believe this thread has reached nigh-on 50 pages without mentioning They're Made Out of Meat, perhaps I missed it. Thank you all for the entertaining and informative reading.

Cute. Reminds me of another story (forgot the author, it's a short and was so very long ago) where an experimental spacecraft exceeds light speed.

All of the sudden, all the stars seem much crisper... nearer. Turns out the speed of light is actually much quicker than we think it is. Alien emissaries come down to the planet, explain that we live in a bubble of artificially slow light-speed (and thus, with a low speed limit) and that we're being quarantined because we're too violent and dangerous for the rest of the galaxy. They flip the light-speed limiter back on and leave... forever.
 

Their conclusion is a bit thin:

'The fact that UFOs and extraterrestrials may be deliberately encountered in a controlled manner, and within a few days proves that such experiences are a product of the human brain.

however, it could be: "It is reasonable to assume that a specific encounter not concurred by other people or measured by monitoring equipment was most probably a very realistic dream."
 
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I think someone tried to be funny. Why would they circle around Mars. All the action happens on Earth.

Phobos grunt left the Earth yesterday, and we'll get answers in 2014, when the returnship will be back on earth.

By the way.

This thread can be closed, for now. The truth is out. :lol:
 
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http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblo...e-from-massive-blast-off-martian-surface.html

ESA scientists find atmospherically pressurized interior compartments exist in Phobos, moon of Mars. Could it be an ancient alien spaceship, they ask?

Respectfully,
Steve

Don'tcha know? We're living on the crusty surface of a giant magma-creature spacecraft which was stranded in this solar system some four billion years ago. Rumors have it that the devolved descendants of these ancient astronauts keep trying to come outside to make repairs, but they freeze solid when exposed to the icy-cold layers of water and air that have accreted around the Earth.
 
niky
Don'tcha know? We're living on the crusty surface of a giant magma-creature spacecraft which was stranded in this solar system some four billion years ago. Rumors have it that the devolved descendants of these ancient astronauts keep trying to come outside to make repairs, but they freeze solid when exposed to the icy-cold layers of water and air that have accreted around the Earth.

Sounds legit.
 
The White House is denying the existence of aliens. ( LINK )

Of course, the White House denies a lot of things, this included :lol:
 
http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblo...e-from-massive-blast-off-martian-surface.html

ESA scientists find atmospherically pressurized interior compartments exist in Phobos, moon of Mars. Could it be an ancient alien spaceship, they ask?

Respectfully,
Steve

Tere aare a couple of key phrases here:
which has given birth to wild speculation that Phobos could prove to be an artificial satellite of some sort

So people are making stuff up with no actual basis in fact, then.

and, probably more importantly:
European Space Agency (ESA) sources emphasized that

Notice the wording here "ESA sources" not "Dr So-And-So" not "the ESA". "Sources from" and "sources close to" are the ultimate get-out clauses in the press, they are a way of saying what you want without actually needing it to be true or even for someone to have told you it's true, you can pretty much make stuff up and say "a source close to ... said". Gossip mags and tabloids use this a lot on slow news days.
 
Scientist have some trouble explaining this skeleton:
ns4ec5a078.jpg


http://www.top10ufo.com/displayimage.php?album=14&pos=20

Seems a weird disease more then out of space too me.
 
Mjeh, probably an ancient skull from South/Middle America. When they were alive and still very young, mommy or daddy tied a rope of some sort around the skull, stretching it out.

Clickie.

Scroll down a bit.
 
Urmm, yeah, we can see that. The question is what is it a skeleton of? May not necessarily be a human.

I'm not exactly sure, but it looks like it has molars where it shouldn't. Egads!
Widely separated ancient civilizations from the Middle East to the New World at times seemed to prize the "conehead" look.

In Arkansas, I have personally examined the skull casts of a family which was part of a community of pre-historic mound builders. They were on display in their original but archeologically preserved burial pit. Their skulls were more vertical and cylindrical, rather than cone shaped and angled back. I have visited native sites and museums in both North America and South America.

With a few years of amateur investigation, my personal opinion is that these folks were elites, and were tribal shaman. The shaman tradition passed on from father to son, and they were easy to recognized by their unique looks. We know this tradition used drugs and altered states of consciousness. It is just barely possible that deliberately altering a person's skull from birth will have some sort of effect on the subsequent development of the brain. Perhaps by trial and error they achieved what they considered enhanced abilities as well as "enhanced" looks?

Respectfully submitted,
Steve
 
Pretty ridiculous caption on the picture in the original website... How can you "confirm" something is extra-terrestrial without doing DNA analysis? And here, we were talking about it having puzzling terrestrial features like an open fontanella, molars that are set far forward and large eye cavities... without a single mention of carbon-fiber laced bones... :lol:

It's likely a mis-translation... the scientists confirmed the mummy was alien to that area in the sense that a Mexican in Canada is. Not in the extra-terrestrial sense.

It's likely a child that's gone through ceremonial head-binding, which would explain the enlarged head and stretched eye sockets. Though it would be very difficult to get the binding low enough to stretch the eye sockets, they could do the same with a box. This would also helps explain the open fontanella. The skull is under stress and deformation, which hinders the ossification of that site. The molars? Easy enough to do, with binding and patience. Ancient civilizations had weird ideas about beauty, and any orthodontist could tell you that with enough time, you could move teeth about in the mouth any way you want to.

Mind you... I've never seen a head-binding that enlarged the eye sockets, so this is a relatively new thing, but to say, as that site says, that the mummy has no human characteristics when it obviously has skin, a skull, ribs, a backbone, and teeth... is pretty far-fetched.
 
That's why we take what we see on teh interwebz with a grain of salt. Most of us do, anyway.
 
There has to be some kind of life in the Universe.
What bugs me is people saying "There is no water here, so no life can exist"
On a different planet, they could use a different solvent to grow from.

 
Jimlaad43
There has to be some kind of life in the Universe.
What bugs me is people saying "There is no water here, so no life can exist"
On a different planet, they could use a different solvent to grow from.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCH7UNoBXoQ">YouTube Link</a>

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.6 - http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

After reading that, I doubt it.
 
There has to be some kind of life in the Universe.
What bugs me is people saying "There is no water here, so no life can exist"
On a different planet, they could use a different solvent to grow from.

(funny youtube link elided)

Well put, and that's an excellent supporting citation :sly:

"If you only have access to a Wookie, you will need a larger lake".

For additional comedy, try turning on the google (beta) automated transcription captioning.

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it.

I will begin by assuming you only want the five minute argument, rather than the full half-hour (since you wisely indicated doubt rather than certainty arising from the quote) :dopey:

Within my filter bubble and shallowly researched experience, based as it is upon flimsy evidentiary support that satisfies my cognitive biases, I will also assume that most people here would be aware of the Simulation Argument. (I happen to believe it is flawed, but nonetheless useful, even if it does derive from many similar arguments and resources in philosophy). I also may not be indicating or advocating my personal beliefs, since they aren't relevant on this occasion. If you don't like the simulation argument, perhaps many-universes might serve the same purpose; Special Creation certainly would, in a limited case (making certain other assumptions).

You could already be communicating (one-way) with aliens. You may not share anything as basic as the laws of physics with them, since they invented those. Water may, indeed, be necessary for life in our universe - but it may only *exist* in our universe for that reason (an interesting variation on the Anthropological Principle)

You (and certainly we as a race), may prefer to think of and hope for aliens that are both like us (for we can be lonely, and want to have an easier time comprehending what we're dealing with) and at the same time different (so that we can both retain our uniqueness, and perhaps to be able to demonize or worship them as the occasion demands), but those are just more biases and prejudices. It may be likely, or even wildly more probable, that carbon-based life arising around abundant water is an easier path, but I think it would be astonishingly hard to prove that other possibilities are negligible or non-existent.

For example, as I alluded to (now and previously), a technologically mature race (whether or not it has the energy budget and ethical makeup to allow Ancestor Simulations - this point is decoupled from that) may no longer need water, assuming they ever did. Based on another allusion, they may not even interact on a sufficiently long or short time scale that we can easily understand, even if they were not so extremeophilic to allow us to perceive them at all (e.g. existing in stars/nebulae/globular clusters/gas giants, or yet more abstract or difficult environs).

In my first post in the thread, I asked if anyone was depressed about the likelihood of being able to have contact with comprehensible sentient aliens.

For that to happen, we have to:

a) Be very, very lucky - on an astronomical scale, in terms of both space and time. Water? Ha! Check out iron and stellar nucleosynthesis, then put our own prerequisites for life together again probalistically.

b) Not be in a simulation (or indeed Creation) constrained such that we are the only sentient beings in contactable range (it would be amusing if we're unique in our universe due to processing or storage constraints).

c) Avoid extinction for a sufficiently long time (through to a Singularity, perhaps? another time...), and be very patient - a hundred years isn't even the blink of an eye.

d) (IMVHO) Be open minded, and not such prigs about what we consider "life".

In short, better citation needed :D

Even if water IS really cool.
 
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