Religion is contrived

Let’s say you were an average Joe back in the dark ages before Christianity. You’re watching lots of people with no morals run around and do whatever they feel like because there are no consequences for their actions. You’re seeing chaos, and you’re seeing power hungry thugs rule over good people. You’ve noticed that people are on the planet and we don’t know why, and you’ve noticed some little lights in the sky at night. You’ve noticed a big bright ball in the sky and nobody can explain it.

There are lots of things you can’t explain and you’re sick of watching the injustices of humanity.

So what’s an average Joe to do?

How about devise a reward based system for good deeds and morals? Well, you have nothing to offer people. OH! Wait! I’ve got it! Give them something that they’ll never be able to collect from you on. Give them something after they’re dead. They don’t know what happens when they die anyway. Ok, that’s it, a reward based system that they can collect on when they’re dead. But, what if they don’t believe me? What if people say that I can’t give them anything when they’re dead? I need to establish some credibility.

So what if I explain all of this unexplained phenomena. I’ll explain the stars and the sun and how we got here with some magical white bearded buy who will punish us if we don’t act right.

There, now let me check out what I’ve come up with:

Reward based system for morals? Check.
Established credibility? Check.
Can I do it for free? Double Check.

Now all I need are the morals.



And the bible was born. When you step back and look at Christianity (and most religions) they are so obviously contrived to take care of societies problems. They are so clearly man made. They reek of man’s engineering. Think about why the dinosaurs weren’t in the bible… we didn’t know about them! If god had said all that crap about adam and eve, he would have mentioned the dinosaurs.

Doesn’t hell sound like a man made punishment system? Doesn’t heaven sound awfully contrived? Oh um… well… if you do bad things…. you …. um…. Burn!!! A lot! Like, forever!! It’s laughable.


Now I’m not saying that one guy sat down and came up with the idea one day, but it definitely grew out of man’s mind. And the more we find out about our environment, the less room it leaves us to believe in this crutch that we used to pull our ignorant, magic believing rears out of the dark ages.

Originally posted by danoff
Can I do it for free? Double Check.

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Double-incorrect,... if I'm not mistaken you must give 10% of your annual earnings to the church. For example,.... if you make 500 a week,... 50 of that,... or $2,600 a year is required to be donated if your vow to god is to be accepted.


From Deuteronomy 23:
If you make a vow to the LORD your God, do not be slow to pay it, for the LORD your God will certainly demand it of you and you will be guilty of sin. You must not bring the earnings of a female prostitute or of a male prostitute [3] into the house of the LORD your God to pay any vow, because the LORD your God detests them both.

Nonono, you're looking at it from the point of view of people joining the system. I'm looking at it from the point of view of the people making the system. It doesn't cost them a dime to get people to sign up because they promise something other than money.

The people joining up are a whole 'nother story.

Ahhhhhh,....

IMO,... your on the right track with the creator theory.

My theory revolves around one word and one word only,.... "CLOSURE".

We have science to explain things to us today,... back then,... like you said,... no explainartions for anything. Relgion was their science,... it was closure,.. a crutch to lean on to supress the anxiety of wondering what the hell the sun was and the moon was and what happened when we die, ect, ect....

.......... closure,... thats all.

And a good feeling that your enemies will be punished and your good deeds will be rewarded in the end.

By the way. I think that religion has been very beneficial to humanity. Imagine where we'd be if religion hadn't been there to pick us up and make us behave ourselves.

So I have to pay my respect to what religion in general and Christianity specifically has done for our species.

But if you think about it,... the guy who thought up christianity had a great clause thrown in there: No matter what you do in life,... as long as you conceed that Jesus is your lord and savior before you die,... you'll be saved.

So,.. technically, all this descrimination that a lot of us talk about comming from the bible is completely mute. All you have to do is believe in him.

A guy could go out and rape, pillage, murder, steal, ect, ect,.... but as long as he accepts jesus, he's saved. Just like our homosexual topic,... the Falwells of the world can condemn you all they want,... as long as you accept Christ, have alll the butt sex you can handle, cause you'll be saved.

That above, is the genius of Christianity,... if you look close enough, you can be saved no matter who you are,.. in essence, the most non-descriminitory religion out there IMO.

I don't think it quite works like that Red. I believe they have a catch for that... isn't it purgatory or something? I don't quite remember.

Originally posted by danoff
I don't think it quite works like that Red. I believe they have a catch for that... isn't it purgatory or something? I don't quite remember.

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figures,....

Right when I thought I had it all figured out

Oh man, if I only had time.... Certianly some cultures have concieved their own stories of creation to explain all the "why's" as well to establish order among all the people. That's what gave the early church so much power. Thus the reason for seperation of Church and State. Then you mention the Bible and lack of Dino's, and such...so now your talking specifically about Christianity. Actually the Bible does talk about Dino's. There is also historical, scientific proof of many of the events that have occured in the Bible. Not to mention the Virgin Birth, the death, and the resurection of Christ, which is a magic trick I'm sure your not ready to perform.

But anyhow, good theory.....it's just lacking some facts as it pertains to the Bible and Christianity.

If I may be so presumptuous as to offer an alternative theory of the contrivance...

A buch of guys are sitting around in pre-christian times and notice the crops are not growing and people are hungry. People are desperate and doing things they normally wouldn't do. Some are venturing off on their own, small bands are rivaling other bands in the group. People are fighting over not enough resources. The group is dissolving and people are in danger. One of them notices that the sun rises from over that rock around the time the rains come. To the best of his memory it happens every year that way and bounces the idea off his buddies. They agree that this is the case. So they contrive a plan. They know when it is going to rain but nobody else does. They figure if they can convince everybody that they have made it rain, they will have power. So they invent a rain god to be worshipped. Take some drugs, kill an animal or two, wear costumes and do a crazy dance. It has to be out of the ordinary or people won't take it seriously. Tell them it pleases the god and is a sacred act. Thell them that you have to perform this act and that they must participate. The riitual is born. The rain comes. The new ruler and his priests are all powerful for they have convinced the god, the world, to give them life. Over years this is refined and expanded. The shortest day of the year. The longest day of the year. The people can work with nature now thanks to the knowledge of the ruler and his priests. The people will do anything for them. The people fear their power. So why not make up some more gods? A war god? A sun god. A moon goddess (because women are dark and mysterious). Claim that your knowledge of the gods and heavens has made it possible for you to know when the world began, and when it will end. The people understand that they are dependent on this knowledge only you posess, and will do anything to protect your holy status, including sacrifice their lives.

People get smarter. Philosophy happens. The idea is revealed for what it is. Metaphor is revealed. People understand what was once an instument of power and control. But they still do not understand the metaphysical nature of it, the fact that it exists without any demonstrable proof beyond a mass belief. They start to talk about it but can still only use ideas to talk about ideas. They are trapped in Being. Over time the ideas themselves become the instument of power.
Jesus' greatest moments are when he is speaking to his followers or putting powerful Jews in their place with a perspective that wasn't uniquely his own, but new and dangerous nonetheless. So much so he is killed for it. And the real fiction starts...

The undemostrable world of ideas has life independent of the physical bodies it expresses through. The savior must also have this power as the word of god. He must live on. But because he is very obviously dead, he must be brought back to life. He must live forever, and he better be able to promise all of us the same deal or it ain't worth it.

The Christians are hated. They are fed to lions. Their religion is illegal. They are a hopeless, criminal lot. But their oppressors became decadent and lazy. Tactics like martyrdom become effective to the hopeless. Their oppressors can't win because they can kill Christians, but the can't kill the all powerful ideas, the words of god. They exhaust themselves trying. Finally Christianity triumphs and takes it's oppressors place (the goal all along (no, perhaps not Jesus' goal, but Christianity's nonetheless)). A supremely generalized religion (as all monotheistic religions are) that can be used to fit any situation and is very attractive to other oppressed masses rolling in their own filth, is born. It is very utilitarian (the birth of protestantism), and yet retains much of the pre-christian, pagan superstition it was born from (catholicism). It is an all purpose instrument of control. It has been institutionalized, indeed, spawned institutions. It is totally overarching. People can no longer see around it, through it, or over it. The kind of rebelion that allowed Christianity to come to life is gone. Christianity is an overgrown, hypergeneralized contivance, a religion that has outlived its usefulness in the world. It seems to have a modicum of benefit for the modern individual's anxiety. As the force in the development of Western civilization, it has worn out it's welcome. The pre-christian bands noticing they could predict the rains are too smart now. Everybody can know everything at any time. Christianity can no longer claim ownership of the religious experience. Christianity has consumated religion.

Originally posted by Pako
There is also historical, scientific proof of many of the events that have occured in the Bible. Not to mention the Virgin Birth, the death, and the resurection of Christ, which is a magic trick I'm sure your not ready to perform.

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good one 👍 best joke I've heared all day.

Christ-all-mighty milefile,.... ,.. that was friggin impressive.... 👍

has outlived it's usefulness,........ classic

Huh..., not quite sure how to comment on that milefile. What's amazing is the lack of awareness of what Christianity is really about. I'm not talking about the man driven legalistic sect of religion, but rather the spirituality and the one-on-one relationship that you can have. I'm afraid it's "usefulness" is far from being outlived. But non the less, that was a very creative theory.

What I'd like to see Pako is the historical/scientific PROOF of the imaculate conception that you spoke about......... show me that, and christ has gained another supporter,.... but until some 'hard-core' evidence that you speak of can be viewed, I'll always be a skeptic.

Better yet, you know all that is tangible by touchie feely stuff can be found in the Bible. You would however, have to believe in what the Bible tells you as being actual account being documented. So my quest to you is to disprove the Word of God. I mean, if it's all just a man made conception of human control, then the manual should have it's faults, and would fall on it's face. We are talking about writtings that are older than 2000 years old. So please, do your research.... I'd be interested in what you find.

Originally posted by Pako
Better yet, you know all that is tangible by touchie feely stuff can be found in the Bible. You would however, have to believe in what the Bible tells you as being actual account being documented.

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I don't believe that. I believe it has value as metaphor.

So my quest to you is to...

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Find a shrubbery? Sorry.

disprove the Word of God. I mean, if it's all just a man made conception of human control, then the manual should have it's faults, and would fall on it's face.

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This is, arguably, happening now. None of us will live long enough to know. Except Christians.

Ok,... the world is the center of the universe for starters.

Or,.. it's only 10000 years old,...

or,... there was a flood (in the last 10000 years) that covered the entire planet,....

or that man started from 2 people,... just over 10000 years ago...


all of the above have been PROVEN false....

Originally posted by milefile

Find a shrubbery? Sorry.

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Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
What I'd like to see Pako is the historical/scientific PROOF of the imaculate conception that you spoke about......... show me that, and christ has gained another supporter,.... but until some 'hard-core' evidence that you speak of can be viewed, I'll always be a skeptic.

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Sorry I can't take you back in time for you to see with your own two eyes. What we do have is documented eye witnesses. Now tell me that if these were made up stories, that these witnesses were actually lieing, that we would have surely heard about by now. If not to discredit this hated religion, and to discount the power of Christ, but also because it is human nature to disclose the truth.

Originally posted by Pako
Huh..., not quite sure how to comment on that milefile. What's amazing is the lack of awareness of what Christianity is really about. I'm not talking about the man driven legalistic sect of religion, but rather the spirituality and the one-on-one relationship that you can have. I'm afraid it's "usefulness" is far from being outlived. But non the less, that was a very creative theory.

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I did address the spiritual part. But it is insignificant in light of the rest. There are many ways to achieve spirituality and what you attribute to god. And there are many ways to achieve the good life for people in general. It will take a while yet for humanity to grow out of it, but it is happening. You can see it all around. Many Christians hate it, hence their demands for government intervention.

Originally posted by Pako
it is human nature to disclose the truth.

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It is human nature to lie. The creativity of our species presupposes it. We would be better off if we could just control our lies instead of trying to eradicate one of the most central insticts we posess.

Originally posted by Pako
Sorry I can't take you back in time for you to see with your own two eyes. What we do have is documented eye witnesses. Now tell me that if these were made up stories, that these witnesses were actually lieing, that we would have surely heard about by now. If not to discredit this hated religion, and to discount the power of Christ, but also because it is human nature to disclose the truth.

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Do you remember playing the game in kindergarden were one person starts with a phrase, whispers it into someones ear,... the that peorson in turn whispers what they thought they heared to the next person, so-on-and-so-forth?

That's what the stories of the bible are,... hear-say with a few written documents scattered in-between,... no proof,... only folk tales.

One of the things that gets me is that some people actually beleive the world is only 8000 years old, or thereabouts. How can you look at a fossil dinosaur embedded in solid rock and believe that? How can you see carbon dating that places humans in the Americas as long as 35000 years ago and believe the world is only that old? It boggles my mind. All of the evidence is against it.

Originally posted by milefile
One of the things that gets me is that some people actually beleive the world is only 8000 years old, or thereabouts. How can you look at a fossil dinosaur embedded in solid rock and believe that? How can you see carbon dating that places humans in the Americas as long as 35000 years ago and believe the world is only that old? It boggles my mind. All of the evidence is against it.

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Funny how people can have so much faith in 2000 years old hear-say,.. yet none when it comes to simple arithmatic...... a paradox.

I strongly suggest that everyone here read Foolish Faith, by Judah Etinger

If you feel thrifty, go to http://www.foolishfaith.com/book.asp and either read it online or download the book via chapters(7 chapters). It has some very good points.

I've been reading it some, I'm to chapter 3, and as far as I can tell, it is not promoting a specific religion, but is an informational book that supports evidence.

Please note, I changed the word stingy to thrifty because I decided thrifty was a better choice.

Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
Do you remember playing the game in kindergarden were one person starts with a phrase, whispers it into someones ear,... the that peorson in turn whispers what they thought they heared to the next person, so-on-and-so-forth?

That's what the stories of the bible are,... hear-say with a few written documents scattered in-between,... no proof,... only folk tales.

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All New Testament scholars agree that the Gospels (biographies of Jesus) were written and circulated within Jesus’ generation, during the lifetime of the eyewitnesses. In fact, many scholars argue persuasively that some of the gospels were written as early as the 50’s AD (within about 30 years of Jesus’ death).[6] This is significant because legends and myths usually take root in foreign lands, or centuries after an event. The legend of Santa Claus, for instance, developed centuries after the historical Saint Nicholas lived.[7] Thus, respected Oxford Professor Sherwin-White states that for the Gospels to be myths or legends, the rate of legendary accumulation would have to be “unbelievable” – more generations are needed. He maintains that it would have been without precedent anywhere in history for a myth to have grown up that fast.

Originally posted by rjensen11
I strongly suggest that everyone here read Foolish Faith, by Judah Etinger

If you feel thrifty, go to http://www.foolishfaith.com/book.asp and either read it online or download the book via chapters(7 chapters). It has some very good points.

I've been reading it some, I'm to chapter 3, and as far as I can tell, it is not promoting a specific religion, but is an informational book that supports evidence.

Please note, I changed the word stingy to thrifty because I decided thrifty was a better choice.

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Just read through most of the book, very interesting insight and information. Thanks for the link.

What I like best about it is that it's not in your face. I don't think I would find it offensive no matter what my belief system or lack there of.

Originally posted by Pako
All New Testament scholars agree that the Gospels (biographies of Jesus) were written and circulated within Jesus’ generation, during the lifetime of the eyewitnesses. In fact, many scholars argue persuasively that some of the gospels were written as early as the 50’s AD (within about 30 years of Jesus’ death).[6] This is significant because legends and myths usually take root in foreign lands, or centuries after an event. The legend of Santa Claus, for instance, developed centuries after the historical Saint Nicholas lived.[7] Thus, respected Oxford Professor Sherwin-White states that for the Gospels to be myths or legends, the rate of legendary accumulation would have to be “unbelievable” – more generations are needed. He maintains that it would have been without precedent anywhere in history for a myth to have grown up that fast.

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I don't think Jesus was a legend. He's an historical figure who actually lived. I don't know anyone who doubts that. But I do believe certain liberties were taken with his story. Mind you, the gospels were written after the death of this honest man. Something in me thinks he wouldn't have approved. I mean, why does he have to do magic tricks to spread the word?

So how do you ignore the fact that religion (and Christianity in particular) looks exactly like it should if man were to engineer it? I would expect more from a supreme being.

Take a step back from it for a second and look at it. You’ve got punishment for being bad, rewards for being good, outdated establishment of credibility… it’s obvious right? Think about what you would come up with if you were to invent a system (knowing very little science) for comforting people about the unknowns of the world while providing a framework for civility.

How am I off here?