Religion is contrived
- Thread starter Danoff
- 1,109 comments
- 26,489 views
- 6,977
- old-guy64
Thank you.
I was, as always, just making a point.
As far as above comments about the church hoarding money. I'll buy that. Having "churches" be tax exempt breeds greedy little men that look for those kind of loopholes to line their own pockets.
Have a listen to Don Henley's "End of the Innocence" The song "Little Tin God" pretty much sums up my feelings on modern "religion".
- 2,281
are we talking about Christianity or Religion?...you cant synonomise the two...
you have Judism, Islam, Christianity in all its froms such as catholosism, presbeterianism etc. you have new age religions like paganism, wicca, old religions like Shinto etc.....which religion are we talking about?...we all seem to be talking about Christianity..
you have Judism, Islam, Christianity in all its froms such as catholosism, presbeterianism etc. you have new age religions like paganism, wicca, old religions like Shinto etc.....which religion are we talking about?...we all seem to be talking about Christianity..
- 3,194
I'm talking about religion in general when I speak of 'closure'.
That's why when I post I always refer to Christianity and not religon. Religons aren't all necessarily a good thing and not necessarily a bad thing. Religion is just the orginized practice of your belief. Whether that belief is Christianity, ahtiesm, Judism , car washism...ect. It is what you make it.
- 2,281
yeah i hate these fcukers too....they need a damn good kicking in my opinion, knock some sense into those pissing pseudo-inetellectual pea brains....
dark age paganism bears abosulutely no resemblance to the shyte these poofs are practising....
Danoff
Premium
- 34,011
- Mile High City
When I started this thread, I was thinking of religion in the 1st dictionary definition sense as it applies to large organizations:
Religion:
"Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. "
I understand the need to believe in a creator and governor of the universe (though I don't have that need). What I don't understand is why people feel the need to subscribe to the forms of religion that are so common - muslim and christianity.
Since most of you are christians (and I know the most about that one) I tend to talk to the christians in the group.
I have one question for you.
Why do you believe that your god's word is in the bible?
So much of the bible and christianity is so obviously (I mean painfully obviously) thought up by man, how can you believe one word of it?
(That's the same question twice... so it really only counts as one
)
Religion:
"Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. "
I understand the need to believe in a creator and governor of the universe (though I don't have that need). What I don't understand is why people feel the need to subscribe to the forms of religion that are so common - muslim and christianity.
Since most of you are christians (and I know the most about that one) I tend to talk to the christians in the group.
I have one question for you.
Why do you believe that your god's word is in the bible?
So much of the bible and christianity is so obviously (I mean painfully obviously) thought up by man, how can you believe one word of it?
(That's the same question twice... so it really only counts as one
)
- 6,977
- old-guy64
I believe the Bible, and it's principles, because it was written over a period of about 1,000 years. By many men, Yet it doesn't contradict itself.
If you pick up any other book that more than two people had input into, you will find contradictions. To me, that is evidence of the influence of one vastly superior intellect (God).
I also find Bible principles to be sound. And for me (maybe not for other folks) that's enough.
The funny thing to me is that the Bible can be (mis)interpreted in many ways by different people, but I haven't found anywhere that the Bible disagrees with itself.
If you pick up any other book that more than two people had input into, you will find contradictions. To me, that is evidence of the influence of one vastly superior intellect (God).
I also find Bible principles to be sound. And for me (maybe not for other folks) that's enough.
The funny thing to me is that the Bible can be (mis)interpreted in many ways by different people, but I haven't found anywhere that the Bible disagrees with itself.
- 732
I'm not a big fan of organized religion.
Can you proove right now that your god exists?
Can you proove right now that your god exists?
- 732
I do not need to, because before religion existed there was no god, and since people introduced religion, religion must be prooven.
You can proove that there is life, but can you proove that life exists with god(s) watching over us?
i know that what i can toutch, smell, see, taste, and hear is less than 1/1,000,000 of reality, but just believing something written in a book is too much for me.
Danoff
Premium
- 34,011
- Mile High City
But it is contradictory to what we now know of the universe. That doesn't concern you? I'm going to check in to this claim... see if I can pull up some contradictions.
About it making good sense, I think the bible's stories make sense to a lot of people and that has a lot to do with its popularity. I think it has a lot of good common sense it in, but that doesn't make me think any sort of magic is behind it.
That contradiction thing is interesting Gil. I'll check into it.
Danoff
Premium
- 34,011
- Mile High City
While I don't think it's totally fair to ask you to prove that he exists, it definitely isn't fair to ask that someone prove that he doesn't.
I can make any claim that I want and ask you to prove that it isn't true. For example:
"Alpha Centauri is where God lives with an alien race that are 3 feet tall, pink, and make a noise like a cow when they walk."
Now you might ask me to prove that that is true - but I say prove that it isn't true.... YOU CAN'T!!!
- 6,977
- old-guy64
Well, now we're jumping off into faith.
Hebrews 11:1--Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.
Moving to Hebrews 11:6--He that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of those that diligently seek him.
By the same token we must back up our faith with our deeds. James 2:14-18.
As it stands, you can't prove to a certainty that God doesn't exist. I can't prove to a scientific certainty that he does.
However, as I have said many times before, I will go on believing, and trying to serve Him. When the day of judgement comes, and God makes himself evident, please remember that we had this little tete e' tete.
Even if I'm wrong, I will have spent my life trying to please God, and that's plenty good enough for me. If I'm right and I get to Heaven, Hooray for me.
If you're right, we get chucked in the grave and forgotten. If you're wrong, you'll have to explain yourself to God.
I may be unscientific, but my route seems to have a lower risk factor.
See the book of Luke: I'd much rather be Lazarus, than the rich man.
Hebrews 11:1--Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.
Moving to Hebrews 11:6--He that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of those that diligently seek him.
By the same token we must back up our faith with our deeds. James 2:14-18.
As it stands, you can't prove to a certainty that God doesn't exist. I can't prove to a scientific certainty that he does.
However, as I have said many times before, I will go on believing, and trying to serve Him. When the day of judgement comes, and God makes himself evident, please remember that we had this little tete e' tete.
Even if I'm wrong, I will have spent my life trying to please God, and that's plenty good enough for me. If I'm right and I get to Heaven, Hooray for me.
If you're right, we get chucked in the grave and forgotten. If you're wrong, you'll have to explain yourself to God.
I may be unscientific, but my route seems to have a lower risk factor.
See the book of Luke: I'd much rather be Lazarus, than the rich man.
How about this then? Prove to me right now that the universe and everything in it was created without any help from a supreme being. At the very least tell me how it started from nothing. It doesn't have to be a scientific fact about how it started. Just how you think it started.
I don't just believe in something just because it's written in a book. I know because I have a relationship with the Creator through Christ. It's not something I can hand you and you can see it or touch it but it is real.
I understand where you are comming from but for me to believe everything around me (the universe)was from nothing is just not believable to me.
Originally posted by danoff
But it is contradictory to what we now know of the universe. That doesn't concern you? I'm going to check in to this claim... see if I can pull up some contradictions.
About it making good sense, I think the bible's stories make sense to a lot of people and that has a lot to do with its popularity. I think it has a lot of good common sense it in, but that doesn't make me think any sort of magic is behind it.
That contradiction thing is interesting Gil. I'll check into it.
I would be interested in the contradictions too. I'm not talking about contradictions in interpretations but how it "is contradictory to what we know of the universe."
- 6,977
- old-guy64
When I was talking about contradictions I was talking about the human recorders contradicting each other.
You won't find it.
That is pretty divine in its own right. If two guys who witnessed an event were questioned by the same person within an hour of each other, there would be some contradictions in their stories.
This Bible was written over 1000+ years and doesn't contradict itself. Pretty amazing in my book.
You won't find it.
That is pretty divine in its own right. If two guys who witnessed an event were questioned by the same person within an hour of each other, there would be some contradictions in their stories.
This Bible was written over 1000+ years and doesn't contradict itself. Pretty amazing in my book.
Danoff
Premium
- 34,011
- Mile High City
..and of course this can't be done either. But I'm not sure how many people you'd find that would tell you that they believe that this is the case. Most people who don't have religion would call themselves agnostic, meaning that they don't know how the universe was created and aren't sure they're ever going to know.
That's of course different from what you're doing, which is believing in something without proof. <-You don't need to argue against that statement because it's not meant as a criticism and you've admited to it.
As to how the universe might have gotten here without any help from a creator...
Steven Hawking has been working on a cyclical theory of the universe, one of the accomplishments he's noted for is the discovery of subatomic particles that pop into and out of existance. There are two particles, a negative and a positive if you will, that pop into existance with a velocity away from each other. They arc through space and are attracted back to each other. When they colide they are destroyed (because they are negative and positive... ying and yang). This happens within a fraction of a second.
You might ask, how do we know this is the case? Hawking theorized that this sort of event takes place everywhere in the universe, but there is one place where this happens and the particles do not destroy each other.... The event horizon of a black hole.
Two subatomic particles come into existance right on the edge of where light can escape the gravity of a black hole. One particle goes slightly inward, the other goes slightly outward. Now the attraction of the two particles is not sufficient to escape the gravitational pull of the black hole, so the particle that went inward gets sucked in, while the particle that went outward (since it's missing its pair) escapes.
The result is an energy glow at the edge of black holes that can be observed via telescope. So hawking was partially validated. His theories gel with physics and explain some of what goes on, it fits into the math (because he derived it from the math) and it fits into observed reality. I don't know how iron clad this has been proven, but I can check on that. I do know that the scientific community accepts this as true (and they're very skeptical).
So here's where the science ends and my own personal theories come out.
What if the universe were something like hawking's subatomic particles. What if there is an anti-universe out there somewhere that we will collide with and destory ourselves. If particles can spring into and out of existance, what can't everything else (which is made up of particles). Hawking proved that something can come from nothing, but the something has to add up to nothing.
Maybe our universe adds up to nothing.
And these subatomic particals just pop into existance? What if there is a anti universe?
If particals can spring into and out of existance?
See what I mean. You ask me to prove God exist yet no one can prove that the universe "popped into existance by itself" All we have is what if's and guesses. That's ok.
I have a lot of respect for science but it seems that science has no respect for the Creator.
Actually that's not entirely true. A lot of scientist believe in a creator.
If particals can spring into and out of existance?
See what I mean. You ask me to prove God exist yet no one can prove that the universe "popped into existance by itself" All we have is what if's and guesses. That's ok.
I have a lot of respect for science but it seems that science has no respect for the Creator.
Actually that's not entirely true. A lot of scientist believe in a creator.
I almost forgot this.
I understand what an agnostic is. I also understand where they are comming from. I was them at one time.
Aren't you believing in something without proof? You put down a bunch of guesses but no proof was given. That wasn't meant as a criticism either. Just an observation.
My proof that God exist is in me. I can't give it too you to study or to examine. I wish I could. I wish I could let you borrow what I know is in me then you would know. But how do I do that?
Read the prophecies in the bible. They aren't vague prophecies that can apply to any time as long as you have a good imagination. They are precise and deal with a lot that has happened to Israel and the Jews before it happened. A lot of them have already been fulfilled exactly as they were prophessed.
There are others that have yet to be fulfilled but they are few of them left. Don't just go on the hearsay of others but really read them from a Bible that is understandable like the NIV.(that's just an example but you choose what version you prefer.)
How is it that someone knew in advance and with such precision that these things were going to happen? Just dumb luck? Lucky guesses? Just curious as to what you think after you read them.
Danoff
Premium
- 34,011
- Mile High City
I never said I believed what I said is how the universe came into existance, you asked for a theory that doesn't require god and I gave you one. I'm not sure what to believe because there is no real evidence backing any explanation of how our reality came to be.
Science has respect only for things that have scrutinized evidence. Your Creator has a book written by men... that doesn't warrant scientific respect. The particles popping into and out of existance has been scrutinized and explained mathematically through what we know of physics. In fact, it was derived from current understand of physics and found in reality... so that's way better documented than Jesus's miracles.
I did not. I did not ask you to prove god exists and even offered that that may not be a fair question. I also said that it was my own thoughts on the matter that the universe popped into existance like the particles. I have no proof that the universe popped into existance and expect nobody to believe me. I simply stated it as a possibility, just a like a supreme being is a possibility. You wanted an explanation for how the universe might have come to be without god and I offered one.
Science has respect only for things that have scrutinized evidence. Your Creator has a book written by men... that doesn't warrant scientific respect. The particles popping into and out of existance has been scrutinized and explained mathematically through what we know of physics. In fact, it was derived from current understand of physics and found in reality... so that's way better documented than Jesus's miracles.
I did not. I did not ask you to prove god exists and even offered that that may not be a fair question. I also said that it was my own thoughts on the matter that the universe popped into existance like the particles. I have no proof that the universe popped into existance and expect nobody to believe me. I simply stated it as a possibility, just a like a supreme being is a possibility. You wanted an explanation for how the universe might have come to be without god and I offered one.
Danoff
Premium
- 34,011
- Mile High City
I believe my previous post talks to this point, but I'll reiterate for the sake of clarity. Steven Hawkings findings are not guesses. The subatomic particles coming into and out of existance from nothing are not guesses. What I stated about the universe is a guess and I don't believe it myself. I just hold it as one possibility. So I maintain my agnostic position. I'm not sure how the universe got here. I believe things that have careful, well documented, obeservable explanations that fit into the underlying mathematics and logic.
You really want me to post all the prophesies in the Bible on here?
I not trying to get you upset. I am trying to see things from your point of view and I am sure you are trying to see things from mine also. I think your theory of the universe was a well thought out one that you have looked into. You seem like a smart guy that has done some research on the subject.
If you are really interested in the prophecies of the Bible that relate to events that have happened and prophecies of events that have not happened yet then there are a number of books at just about any bookstore. They would do a much better job than I could explaining and pointing them out.
I have to get off here for a while.(The hotrod shows are on TV)
Have a good one.
Later
Just something that may be of some interest. (maybe)
http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9404/bigbang.html
http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9404/bigbang.html
